cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xol! on October 27, 2012, 04:42:00 pm

Title: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Xol! on October 27, 2012, 04:42:00 pm
I'm putting this in General Discussion primarily in response to threads like this (http://forum.meleegaming.com/general-discussion/my-last-post-on-the-matter/) and this (http://forum.meleegaming.com/general-discussion/what-change-would-make-you-enjoy-open-maps-more/).  I've thought about these changes quite a bit since coming back to the mod a couple months ago.  I've leveled 5 different alts to 30, which, along with my level 33 main, would be affected by these changes (Alts: archer, lancer, long spear, 1h, HX.  Main: 2h cav).

1) Remove couching from heavy lance/lance/light lance.  Raise destrier & armored horse minimum riding to 6.  While we're at it, change the palfrey to 100 health, 20 armor, 22 charge, and make it minimum 5 riding.

2) Remove weapon proficiency points per level.  Remove movement speed bonus per point of agility, buff athletics instead.  Add 11 weapon proficiency points per point of agility (~100 wpf at 18 agility). Reduces archer kiting ability and reduces the effectiveness of 30+ strength hiltslashing/facestabbing builds.

3) Remove the 1 health point bonus per point of strength, add 2-3 health points per point of ironflesh. (And possibly buff base health by ~10 points).

4) Revert anti-spinstab turn speed and active animation change.  I hate getting spinstabbed as much as the next guy, but the instastabs and overhead turn nerf (see lolstabs, hoplites) are much, much worse for infantry balance.  I appreciate the attempt, but sometimes changes just don't work out, and need to be reversed.

5) Remove wpf penalty per point of power throw/draw over the amount required to use a weapon.  This would allow variety back into archer/thrower builds.  Yes, less powerful versions of the ICBM war bows might come back, but I'd rather fight one of those that can't run away forever.  As a side bonus, it would fix this (http://forum.meleegaming.com/general-discussion/making-level-33-was-the-worst-moment-in-my-crpg-experience/).

6) Here's my take on greatsword balance.  The numbers can change, but more or less make the Danish & German slower, heavier hitting, and more differentiated (danish cuttier, german stabbier).  Tweak the Great Sword, Sword of War, and Highland to be better balanced with other weapon classes.  Give the heavy greatsword a niche to fill, between the Sword of War and the Two Handed Sword. If implemented, all affected looms would probably need to be refunded:
NameCutPierceSpeed
Danish42(+2)23(-1)90(-2)
German36(-2)28(+2)90(-2)
Sword of War40(+0)22(-1)92(-1)
Great Sword36(-1)26(+0)92(-1)
Highland Claymore43(+0)22(+0)91(-1)
Heavy Great Sword38(-1)22(-1)93(+1)

7) Increase game speed setting (or heavily buff melee weapon speeds across the board, including the great swords I just listed, if server rates are a problem).
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Moncho on October 27, 2012, 05:07:36 pm
1) Alright the first part, did not notice the rest. Do not know enough about horses to speak about the last bits.
2) The devs mentioned modifying the wpf curve, so it would depend on how they do it, this might not be necessary
3) Not sure about this, I for one have never had IF. Numbers (with +3, not +2):
It would not affect builds with full IF (-3 from STR, +3 from IF), but it would be a big nerf to non IF builds.
eg: 15 str would need 3 IF to compensate, with 20 str 4, 30 str 6. Ok, does not sound too bad with +3 points
With +2 points, 20 str would need 10 str (impossible), so I would not suggest it, as it would nerf everyone.
4)Not sure, I do not like either
5) I do not think this is a good idea, pure archers would just become even more powerful and keep kiting. This has a simple reasoning: In the beginning, melee was ultra fun, but after playing for a while they realised that hey, I can go pure and not have to risk my skin, just run... This mentality would not change. Also, if you do this, you should do it in a way that every single wpf is worth less, otherwise they would become much more powerful (maybe lowering it a bit from the required one now, not sure).
6) Do not know enough about the greatswords to say about this
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: SHinOCk on October 27, 2012, 05:11:42 pm
I like where you are going with most of what you propose but i don't like anything that would slow the combat of this mod even more like the 100 wpf at 18 agi and especially the speed nerf for the greatswords
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Xol! on October 27, 2012, 05:26:37 pm
Quote from: Moncho on October 27, 2012, 05:07:36 pm
1) Alright
2) The devs mentioned modifying the wpf curve, so it would depend on how they do it, this might not be necessary
3) Not sure about this, I for one have never had IF. Numbers (with +3, not +2):
It would not affect builds with full IF (-3 from STR, +3 from IF), but it would be a big nerf to non IF builds.
eg: 15 str would need 3 IF to compensate, with 20 str 4, 30 str 6. Ok, does not sound too bad with +3 points
With +2 points, 20 str would need 10 str (impossible), so I would not suggest it, as it would nerf everyone.
3 (2nd 3, the spinstab one) Not sure, I do not like either
4) I do not think this is a good idea, pure archers would just become even more powerful and keep kiting. This has a simple reasoning: In the beginning, melee was ultra fun, but after playing for a while they realised that hey, I can go pure and not have to risk my skin, just run... This mentality would not change. Also, if you do this, you should do it in a way that every single wpf is worth less, otherwise they would become much more powerful (maybe lowering it a bit from the required one now, not sure).
5) Do not know enough about the greatswords to say about this

Whoops, didn't see there were two number threes, I fixed it.  For the archer/thrower change, I really think the solution is to make higher strength archery builds more attractive.  Right now, the most efficient archer builds take exactly enough power draw to use the weapon they want, because the damage and accuracy they gain from the extra weapon master is at least as good as the extra damage from power draw after taking the wpf cost into account.  Anyone going over 18 strength as an archer is doing something very wrong.  Unfortunately, with such high agility, it is relatively trivial to stack tons of athletics, and with cloth armor and the agility movement speed bonus, catching archers as a medium armor melee character is like hunting deer with a baseball bat.  My 18/24 6 PD 8 WM 3 Ath archer routinely outruns people.

Quote from: SHinOCk on October 27, 2012, 05:11:42 pm
I like where you are going with most of what you propose but i don't like anything that would slow the combat of this mod even more like the 100 wpf at 18 agi and especially the speed nerf for the greatswords

Oh, trust me I would sacrifice my main for crpg to have a higher game speed setting.  However, I feel like a big part of the stagnant melee play is from the overhead and stab changes.  Overhead attacks are generally not worth the risk because one can sidestep them so easily, and backpedaling is just way too effective with the quick stab animation.  I can even see bufffing athletics for extra movement speed, if reverting the animations proved not to be enough to make melee interesting.  As far as weapon proficiency goes, it really has very, very little effect on animation speed. Walt_F4 did a big series of tests awhile ago, and a 50 wpf difference only gave a swing speed change on the order of milliseconds.  The larger part of the nerf would be the damage penalty high strength builds would suffer for ignoring weapon proficiency, leading to less hiltslashing (ie, not glancing even when they strike at the very beginning of the animation).  With regards to the great sword changes, they either need to get nerfed or everything else needs to get buffed.  I would prefer the latter, but sadly the former is simpler.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Digglez on October 27, 2012, 05:42:18 pm
Quote
1)Raise destrier & armored horse minimum riding to 6.  While we're at it, change the palfrey to 100 health, 14 armor, and make it minimum 5 riding.
What do destriers have to do with cav balance?  If you didnt notice all the lancer cav are using coursers, arabs or the heavier armored horses.  Actually destrier should go back down to 4 and warhorse/large warhorse should stay at 5.  Raise cata/mamluk to 6.

Quote
3) Remove the 1 health point bonus per point of strength, add 2-3 health points per point of ironflesh.
Why not just increase base health as well?

Quote
4) Revert anti-spinstab turn speed and active animation change.  I hate getting spinstabbed as much as the next guy, but the instastabs and overhead turn nerf (see lolstabs, hoplites) are much, much worse for infantry balance.  I appreciate the attempt, but sometimes changes just don't work out, and need to be reversed.
Uh sorry no.  2h Lolstab already accounts for probably half of all 2h damage, and now you wanna revert it back to its even MORE overpowered poke and turn state?  No thanks. 

Quote
5) Remove wpf penalty per point of power throw/draw over the amount required to use a weapon.  This would allow variety back into archer/thrower builds.  Yes, less powerful versions of the ICBM war bows might come back, but I'd rather fight one of those that can't run away forever.

This is going to make every single archer into legolas, laying down uzi rate of fire but with pinpoint accuracy.  Unless youa re going to also revert longbows to the only way to do PIERCE dmg as archer, no thanks.  And if you hate throwers right now, just wait til every shielder is carrying a stack of throwing with SUPERB accuracy.  As it stands right now, hybrid throwers are actually fairly skilled based having to use prediction/anticipation to actually hit moving/dodging targets.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Xol! on October 27, 2012, 06:39:53 pm
Quote from: Digglez on October 27, 2012, 05:42:18 pm

I feel like I'm being trolled.  I will try my best to respond anyway.

Horses: There is an epidemic of hybrid cavalry.  5 riding offers an enormous return for a relatively small investment.  Upping the heavier and more effective horses to a 6 riding minimum serves to curb the reward for investing a low number of points in riding.  Perhaps the large warhorse, cataphract, and charger could remain at 5 riding, as they are somewhat less effective than the destrier, warhorse, mamluk, etc.  Frankly, I'd like to see cavalry very heavily rebalanced to be more varied in terms of stats and requirement, but at the moment asking players to invest more in riding to reap the reward seems to be the simplest solution to cav overpopulation.

Health:  The goal isn't to make people have more health, the goal is to make iron flesh a more attractive build choice.

2h stab:  Yes, 2h stab has been consistently overpowered.  Right now it is better than ever.  You can hit an opponent at close range nearly instantly, if you perform the attack properly (stab slightly to the left and turn right, which also works with poles and to a lesser extent, 1h).  While the turn change did slightly nerf the 2h stab, it only really encourages backpedaling, and the absolutely gigantic buff it gained from the animation change outweighs it.  While the quicker strike has benefited all melee classes, one handers simply don't do enough damage not to glance frequently early in the animation.  Poles have always had quick stabs, so the benefit is not as obvious.  However, because of the way the two handed stab animation is performed, from head height, it virtually guarantees a head strike at close range, doing huge amounts of damage.  On top of this, the overhead turn change has made it trivial to sidestep an overhead, so it is used with far less frequency.  Left and right swings are inadvisable when teammates are nearby.  What does that leave?  lolstabs.  This isn't a suggestion to fix 2h stab.  This is a suggestion to change it  back to something less broken (and fix overheads in the process).

Archers & Throwers:  I actually don't see where you're coming from here.  Right now everyone uses a minimum powerdraw/power throw build with lots of weapon master.  There's physically no way for someone to go with a higher power draw and not lose some weapon proficiency in either case.  Right now an 18-21 7 WM archer build has about 165 wpf at level 30.  The same build would have about 161 wpf with the proposed change.  The only difference would be that going 21-18, 24-15, etc. would be viable instead of a waste.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Pandemona on October 27, 2012, 06:55:42 pm
If they raise required riding for any horse, they MUST give free respec to all cavalries.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Rebelyell on October 27, 2012, 07:01:25 pm
nerf nerf nerf


lets nerf nerf


no more nerfs
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Herr_Thomas on October 27, 2012, 07:17:01 pm
The only answer is to buff polearms.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Mlekce on October 27, 2012, 07:30:06 pm
balanced game = booring.
leave it as it is,let us enjoy this mod untill bannerlord get released.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: _GTX_ on October 27, 2012, 09:52:22 pm
We do not need more infantry nerfs...... This game is getting more and more dull. We need to speed the melee combat up, the never ending fights is alrdy boring as hell. Which can explain why so many went cav and archers... its just 10 times more effective at killing, since u need 2 mins to just kill 1 guy in melee.

So plz, no more infantry nerfs.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Bronto on October 27, 2012, 09:56:05 pm
I've always thought a good way to balance the game and eliminate kiting would be adding STAMINA. You can add a sprint but only be able to do it for so long before you stamina is drained. Shooting takes stamina, swinging takes stamina, blocking takes stamina. This way you don't have one strength build maul crutcher just overheading all your team/shielders, you don't have archers kiting because if they've been shooting they aren't going to be able to run very far. You can't just hide behind your 9 shield skill because eventually exhaustion sets in and you can't attack or block. I think this would be a great way to balance the game but probably not feasible as stamina doesn't even exist in this mod/game to begin with.

Also, instead of eliminating couching, make lances break. Your couch connects on either a person or shield, guess what, your lance is broken and now you have to either melee from horseback or dismount and melee on the ground.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Kelugarn on October 27, 2012, 10:08:31 pm
Quote from: Brontosauce on October 27, 2012, 09:56:05 pm
I've always thought a good way to balance the game and eliminate kiting would be adding STAMINA. You can add a sprint but only be able to do it for so long before you stamina is drained. Shooting takes stamina, swinging takes stamina, blocking takes stamina. This way you don't have one strength build maul crutcher just overheading all your team/shielders, you don't have archers kiting because if they've been shooting they aren't going to be able to run very far. You can't just hide behind your 9 shield skill because eventually exhaustion sets in and you can't attack or block. I think this would be a great way to balance the game but probably not feasible as stamina doesn't even exist in this mod/game to begin with.

Also, instead of eliminating couching, make lances break. Your couch connects on either a person or shield, guess what, your lance is broken and now you have to either melee from horseback or dismount and melee on the ground.

People have been throwing the idea of stamina around for a long time, devs have repeatedly said no  :cry: .
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on October 27, 2012, 10:36:49 pm
I think that a lance entirely breaking upon couching is a bit harsh. I'd be in favour of simply raising the "cooldown" on couching quite a lot in all circumstances, or raise it very high after a successful couch.

I mean, a heavy lance has ~700 repairs if I remember correctly. Doesn't seem very fair to be able to use it one time (with a couch, I guess you could still thrust all day?) and have it break.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: dreadnok on October 27, 2012, 10:37:31 pm
no comment due to being afraid of being banned again
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on October 27, 2012, 11:45:09 pm
Quote from: Xolvern on October 27, 2012, 04:42:00 pm
1) Remove couching from heavy lance/lance/light lance.  Raise destrier & armored horse minimum riding to 6.  While we're at it, change the palfrey to 100 health, 14 armor, and make it minimum 5 riding.

First off, the Palfrey is already a very unpopular and useless horse, only really losing to a sumpter and steppe horse and overall the rouncy is better so buffing the rouncys health by a bit wont really do anything and making it need 5 riding skill is just making the horse pointless.

And seeing as you suggested the destrier and other armored horses should have a minimum of 6 riding, I'm going to presume you think some of them should have even more then 6 riding skill? if so thats just stupid!

As for removing couching from all lances except the great lance, yeah I can accept that
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Tore on October 27, 2012, 11:56:21 pm
No.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Bronto on October 28, 2012, 01:06:08 am
Quote from: Kelugarn on October 27, 2012, 10:08:31 pm
People have been throwing the idea of stamina around for a long time, devs have repeatedly said no  :cry: .

I shall pray then that the dev's have heard our pathetic pleas and that M&B 2 shall be better. Although this mod is just amazing as it is.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Havoco on October 28, 2012, 01:14:56 am
If they add stamina to BANNERLORD I .... I ..... I.....

(click to show/hide)

Btw why is the spell checker capping BANNERLORD?
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: San on October 28, 2012, 01:56:27 am
1. As a 5 riding player myself, cav hybrid is very powerful. It is hard to differentiate what makes a 5 riding cav hybrid that much better than a 6 riding hybrid, though. I would be fine with the change.

2. Sounds reasonable. I don't believe agility movement speed should be removed. I also think that you should get higher levels of wpp depending on what agility you have, so it starts to get much more effective after 15 agi.

3. I like this idea. Ironflesh needs +4 hp to break even with what we have now, but +5 helps make it more favorable compared to the other stats.

4. The turn nerf should not really have happened globally. A fix to a few specific items was all that was needed. I think the sweetspots need to be drastically adjusted. Without earlier active attacks on overheads, that did indeed make them much more useless.

5. Sure, but I don't think it will really fix anything, but it will offer diversity and give the classes more specialties.

6. Not a 2h user, but that does sound interesting.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Xol! on October 28, 2012, 02:34:44 am
Quote from: Hunter_the_Honourable on October 27, 2012, 11:45:09 pm
First off, the Palfrey is already a very unpopular and useless horse, only really losing to a sumpter and steppe horse and overall the rouncy is better so buffing the rouncys health by a bit wont really do anything and making it need 5 riding skill is just making the horse pointless.

And seeing as you suggested the destrier and other armored horses should have a minimum of 6 riding, I'm going to presume you think some of them should have even more then 6 riding skill? if so thats just stupid!

As for removing couching from all lances except the great lance, yeah I can accept that

Rouncey
hit points: 95
body armor: 16
difficulty: 3
speed: 41
maneuver: 41
charge: 20
Palfrey
hit points: 85
body armor: 12
difficulty: 3
speed: 42
maneuver: 41
charge: 18
Palfrey (suggested)
hit points: 100
body armor: 14
difficulty: 5
speed: 42
maneuver: 41
charge: 18

Perhaps a tad more armor and charge damage would be appropriate, say 20 armor and 22 charge, but right now the palfrey is really useless.  Buffing it to fit between the rouncey and the destrier, while raising the requirement to the old destrier requirement seems like a nice way to balance cavalry and give the palfrey a niche.  With regards to your other comment, no, I don't think they should be higher than six.  When I say the minimum riding requirement should be 6 I mean 'six riding, specifically, should be the minimum amount of riding a player needs to mount the horse' not 'the stat should be changed to six or higher'. 

Quote from: san. on October 28, 2012, 01:56:27 am
1. As a 5 riding player myself, cav hybrid is very powerful. It is hard to differentiate what makes a 5 riding cav hybrid that much better than a 6 riding hybrid, though. I would be fine with the change.

2. Sounds reasonable. I don't believe agility movement speed should be removed. I also think that you should get higher levels of wpp depending on what agility you have, so it starts to get much more effective after 15 agi.

5. Sure, but I don't think it will really fix anything, but it will offer diversity and give the classes more specialties.

1) Sadly, internal cav balance is really kind of poor at the moment.  I don't mean to criticize the item balance team, as it would be a complicated set of items to tweak.  The complications just get compounded because turning and acceleration are not separable.  There's really three different horses right now (steppe/desert/arabian, rouncey/palfrey/courser, destrier/armored) with slightly varying stats that aren't necessarily proportional to the requirement nor the upkeep cost.  I'd personally like to see them split into fast/tanky/maneuverable trees with a low stat/unarmored/cheap/low requirement version, low stat/armored/medium cost/medium requirement version, high stat/unarmored/medium cost/high requirement version, and medium stat/armored/high cost/high requirement version. In my horse balance fantasyland it would probably be rouncey/charger/destrier/plated charger for the tanky group, palfrey/war horse/courser/mamluk for the fast group, and desert/cataphract/arabian/large warhorse for the maneuverable group.  The sumpter could remain in it's kind of odd peasant-horse position, and perhaps the steppe could be a very cheap, very weak, low requirement, balanced horse geared towards use while leveling.  edit: I realized I didn't actually address your comment.  My point is that changing the riding requirement is a very easy change that could help with the large number of cav without reworking cav stats entirely.

2) I actually really love the extra movement speed from agility, but it's part of the problem with archer kiting at the moment.  It just makes athletics less of a requirement for maneuverability much the same way the strength health bonus less of a requirement for survivability. 

3) Agreed, if it were to solve the influx of ranged players, it would need to incorporate a damage nerf (nerf nerf nerf :( ) that made strength more attractive as a damage dealing option.  Right now I'd settle for variety.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Tyr_ on October 28, 2012, 03:06:48 am
Quote from: Xolvern on October 27, 2012, 04:42:00 pm

6) Here's my take on greatsword balance.  The numbers can change, but more or less make the Danish & German slower, heavier hitting, and more differentiated (danish cuttier, german stabbier).

Why the fuck would you make them even slower? the game is already retardedly slow, GS in native have about 100 speed not this 92 cripple movement. Whole gameplay should get faster instead.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Xol! on October 28, 2012, 03:12:45 am
Quote from: Tyr_ on October 28, 2012, 03:06:48 am
Why the fuck would you make them even slower? the game is already retardedly slow, GS in native have about 100 speed not this 92 cripple movement. Whole gameplay should get faster instead.

Quote from: Xolvern on October 27, 2012, 05:26:37 pm
Oh, trust me I would sacrifice my main for crpg to have a higher game speed setting.
...
With regards to the great sword changes, they either need to get nerfed or everything else needs to get buffed.  I would prefer the latter, but sadly the former is simpler.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Berserkadin on October 28, 2012, 10:35:23 am
Game havent got any more balanced with all the patches the last years, only slower, more linear and boring. Sometimes its better to back a few steps then to just fuck things up even worse.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Bronto on October 28, 2012, 12:37:24 pm
Looking back, mod was best about 2 years ago, when only Longbow had pierce and before 1h was nerfed so hard.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Xol! on October 28, 2012, 12:40:07 pm
Quote from: Berserkadin on October 28, 2012, 10:35:23 am
Game havent got any more balanced with all the patches the last years, only slower, more linear and boring. Sometimes its better to back a few steps then to just fuck things up even worse.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Rebelyell on October 28, 2012, 12:49:34 pm
Xolvern

no for any just any idea
! big nerf fest and plrfrey will become even worse

you should change that thread to 1 big flat nerf.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: rAve on October 28, 2012, 01:09:20 pm
8. remove archery
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Gristle on October 28, 2012, 01:22:55 pm
So, basically, nerf everyone's build and force some extreme changes? The most ridiculous is suggesting Iron Flesh become a required skill for pretty much every build. 35 HP regardless of Strength?

If we nerf everyone's speed, damage, and hit points, what was the point of changing anything in the first place?
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Bronto on October 28, 2012, 01:24:33 pm
Quote from: Rebelyell on October 28, 2012, 12:49:34 pm
Xolvern

no for any just any idea
! big nerf fest and plrfrey will become even worse

you should change that thread to 1 big flat nerf.


Did you read the first post? Just curious, because he doesn't want to nerf everything just fix broken aspects of the game.
Title: Re: Big Fat Balance Recommendation
Post by: Berserkadin on October 28, 2012, 01:33:38 pm
Just make all classes overpowered, thats the way it was "balanced", and thats the way it got fun!

Btw, upkeep is probably one the biggest fucking misstakes that ever hit this mod, killed alot of the fun. Then they slowed it all down, making cavalry and archers alot more effective then slow infantry. Nothing was broken, but it got "fixed" anyway. We dont need any nerfs, just increase the speed, revert animation changes (gawd they feel so stiff and akward). Just as Xolvern, I prefer the cRPG with old xp/gold system, and the first months after the new xp system was added. It all got so linear after that, no diversity at all. Just lameness and boring grind.