cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Torben on October 23, 2012, 04:51:52 pm

Title: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: Torben on October 23, 2012, 04:51:52 pm
edit:
Quote from: Torben on October 23, 2012, 09:57:12 pm
my central point is to:

---add a mechanism that decreases wpf whilst and/or just after running full speed.  that way,  ranged is less accurate if excessively kiting.  This implicates him either moving earlier,  shooting at closer range or turning to his support weapon,    and therefor leveling the chances for melee vs ranged situations.

how this can be implemented best (bjord has a point here),  and if it is worth thinking about at all,  is what I would like to discuss.

my first idea was to do this:
everyone gets the same base movement speed and a sprint feature that depends on the things running speed now is influenced by (athl,  equ. weight)
(has his downsides,  see bjords post)

during the cooldown of said sprint,  the wpf is reduced by x% (50?),  so an archer that sprinted away can still shoot,  but not as effectively, making it a better option to engage with his melee wep,  as melee isnt effected by low wpf as much as ranged is.

same base running also allows for moving shieldwalls, a nice sideeffect of this thought,  but can be implemented in better ways,  se J's post

please discuss,  add ideas and feel free to do whatever,

Torb
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: Torben on October 23, 2012, 04:52:39 pm
saved,  also:  I will add a poll as soon as some more ideas came in and op is updated.
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: jtobiasm on October 23, 2012, 05:09:30 pm
Basically,
(click to show/hide)

If you're trying to stop archers from kiting, it's pointless as:
If the atlh and weight is used, they would still be faster. Also it's common sense that archers are always going to be faster than the infantry.
inb4 people rage.



Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: Torben on October 23, 2012, 05:12:37 pm
Quote from: jtobiasm on October 23, 2012, 05:09:30 pm
(click to show/hide)

well the main point is the wpf reduction after sprinting,  which favors melee over ranged and makes kiting less proficient,  as accuracy suffers.

was that not clear in the first post or id you oversee it?
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: jtobiasm on October 23, 2012, 05:15:22 pm
(click to show/hide)

Wouldn't they be fast enough to run away and the wpf reduction get reset? Obviously it'd be stupid if it didn't reset.

seems to me this is another thread about nerfing archers
 
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: Torben on October 23, 2012, 06:48:04 pm
Quote from: jtobiasm on October 23, 2012, 05:15:22 pm
(click to show/hide)

Wouldn't they be fast enough to run away and the wpf reduction get reset? Obviously it'd be stupid if it didn't reset.

seems to me this is another thread about nerfing archers

the wpf reduction would be during the srpint cooldown,  so yes,  it would be reset.

I dont want to nerf archers at all,  but change the kiting mechanic whilst also allowing for moving formations.  I am guessing that this is a good way to do it,  archers can still move and shoot and all that,  its just nerfing the endless kiting in a one on one situation.  also,  halfing the wpf doesnt nerf the shooting THAT much in close range,  just enough to give melee guys a bit of a chance.
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: Bjord on October 23, 2012, 07:37:11 pm
So people with 39 STR are going to move just as fast as anyone?
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: jtobiasm on October 23, 2012, 09:31:46 pm
(click to show/hide)

Why not just have a button say X, which makes people walk the same speed while with the shield up? It would be toggle or hold of course.
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: Torben on October 23, 2012, 09:57:12 pm
my central point is to:

---add a mechanism that decreases wpf whilst and/or just after running full speed.  that way,  ranged is less accurate if excessively kiting.  This implicates him either moving earlier,  shooting at closer range or turning to his support weapon,    and therefor leveling the chances for melee vs ranged situations.

how this can be implemented best (bjord has a point here),  and if it is worth thinking about at all,  is what I would like to discuss.
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: LordBerenger on October 23, 2012, 10:06:59 pm
So they'll be useless against Cav now? Meh i'm cav now so sounds fine to me.
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: Torben on October 23, 2012, 11:03:00 pm
Quote from: CountBerenger on October 23, 2012, 10:06:59 pm
So they'll be useless against Cav now? Meh i'm cav now so sounds fine to me.

never seen an archer kite a horse.  they aint that fast...

seriously,  I thought this kiting crap was an obvious problem,  guess I was wrong
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on October 23, 2012, 11:17:17 pm
My worry is that this is a huge nerf to agility melee builds if everyone moves the same speed or if you want to move faster you'll be swinging slower.
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: LordBerenger on October 24, 2012, 04:08:25 pm
Quote from: Torben on October 23, 2012, 11:03:00 pm
never seen an archer kite a horse.  they aint that fast...

seriously,  I thought this kiting crap was an obvious problem,  guess I was wrong

7-8 Ath archer with really light gear a'la Aderyn can easily outmaneuver a Horse with that said archers fast movement.
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: Smoothrich on October 24, 2012, 04:22:00 pm
holding ctrl with the beta cRPG launcher makes everyone move at the same "walk" speed, kiting should be addressed next patch, and i am sure everything will end up working out horribly ~cRPG~
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: oprah_winfrey on October 24, 2012, 05:46:27 pm
Quote from: CountBerenger on October 24, 2012, 04:08:25 pm
7-8 Ath archer with really light gear a'la Aderyn can easily outmaneuver a Horse with that said archers fast movement.

You can outmaneuver a horse with 0 athletics, unless they have like 7-8 riding and an arabian warhorse.
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 24, 2012, 09:01:27 pm
Protect your own ranged, problem solved.

make the teams balanced by class, problem solved.

don't run after the archer, or stand in the open with your thumb up your ass, problem solved.

Kiting archers aren't a problem.   Retards chasing someone who's faster than them, and can hit them from a distance, is the problem.

You can't expect someone who's specialty is in shooting arrows, to stand up and try and fight some 33 strength plated armor infantry...that's just ridiculous unless they're the last one alive.
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: LordBerenger on October 24, 2012, 09:27:41 pm
Quote from: oprah_winfrey on October 24, 2012, 05:46:27 pm
You can outmaneuver a horse with 0 athletics, unless they have like 7-8 riding and an arabian warhorse.

7 riding arab says otherwise and +3 coursers and heavy cav with xbows.
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: oprah_winfrey on October 24, 2012, 09:35:15 pm
The biggest problem is when a team consists of mostly archers, so even though with a shield, they just spread out and gay you anyway.
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 24, 2012, 10:02:41 pm
So the problem is the balance system first and foremost.  Once you actually have ranged on your team, you have some influence if they all end up dying before the enemy team's ranged does.
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: Torben on October 24, 2012, 10:18:53 pm
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on October 24, 2012, 10:02:41 pm
So the problem is the balance system first and foremost. 

guess this is quite true.  3 high level+skill archers on one team can be decisive and worth more than 10 on the other though...
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 24, 2012, 10:40:09 pm
Quote from: Torben on October 24, 2012, 10:18:53 pm
guess this is quite true.  3 high level+skill archers on one team can be decisive and worth more than 10 on the other though...

Again, a balance issue :P

Ideally balance would be (pardon if I'm overlooking something, it's just my opinion):

Type of class (by equipment and skills/attributes)
Banner

That is all that would be needed to fix the current situation.  Nothing more annoying than having horse lancers or archers or horse archers disproportional for one team or the other.  I'm sure we've all been in battles where one side had 70-80% of one of these classes and it makes it hard for pubbies to work together to overcome those odds.

It's going to be hard enough for people to work together if they had equal numbers of classes on each team, but let's at least start there, at the root of the problem.
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: Utrakil on June 01, 2013, 07:59:13 pm
I want to suggest to tackle the problem with kiting archers from a different angle. instead of making kiting harder we should encourage archers more to participate in melee.
So as archer you face two problems when you think about going melee:
1) you have to put all wpf in archery otherwise you hit nothing
2) the upkeep of bows and arrows is so horribly high that you can't afford a decent armor or sidearm.
= you do not want to melee with weak weapon + slow weaponmovement + bad armor

Problem 1 could be solved by increasing the accuracy faster so you can save some wpf for melee
Problem 2 well just reduce arrowcost or at least don't let them break all the time.
if the bow and arrow upkeep doesn't kill you you can get a decent sidearm and decent armor.
like this archers wouldn't have to run away all the time.
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: Torben on June 01, 2013, 08:00:23 pm
nekro ftw ^^

imo kiting is fixed by now mate
Title: Re: removing kiting and making moving formations possible all in one
Post by: Haboe on June 01, 2013, 09:13:39 pm
Archers have higher ath on average, means even though they can't shoot well after it, the will outrun their enemy (unlike now, high agi chars outrun archers 24/7)