cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Darkkarma on October 21, 2012, 11:47:49 pm

Title: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Darkkarma on October 21, 2012, 11:47:49 pm
    Alright, so i'm certain i'm not the first one to make a post like this but its finally gotten to the point where even I am noticing it. I've heard bits and pieces of what the next patch is supposed to bring as fair as build balances/nerfs and all but my question is still why hybrid cross bows/ 2-Hander builds are still clearly so much better than the dedicated arb/1h build? I wont even get into how utterly useless the arbalest is without looms when it comes to actual accurate distance shooting(even at 170 wpf). The regular crossbow is just so damn versatile, especially once you start to loom it.

    Here in NA i've seen countless long time xbow playing individuals switch from either the arb or heavy to the regular crossbow simply because its so good with a two-hander that its like having the best of both worlds. If I miss with my shot on a target and they close in and force me into melee, im at a sizable disadvantage, given how awful most one handers are now with anything under 6 powerstrike. A 2-hander on the other hand has quicker reload time and the opportunity to pull that huge german or danish greatsword off of their backs and melee just as fluidly as a dedicated melee player given how shallow the wpf cap on 2handers is.  The few of us that do stick with the arb do so out of personal preference or in my case, being too stubborn to simply switch to the flavor of the month to stay on top.

     Now, I'm not advocating or asking for a flat out ultra buff of the arb and nerfing of the regular crossbow, but god damn, if you want to de-value body shots and put more incentive on aiming for the head, at least give those of us that choose to actually use the Arbalest the accuracy to shoot people in the head without worrying about our shoots flying off to the left 75 percent of the time.
It shouldn't be impossible to hit a stationary target from distance without aiming your crosshair to the far top right of it simply because our bolts will not fly straight, especially when you have to wait upwards of three seconds in between shots.. As it stands, the hybrid 2 hander/cross bow build is leaps and bounds better than the dedicated arbalest/1 hander build.

    I know alot of dedicated meleers out there will read this and just scoff at this post thinking "good riddance, one less shitty ranged playstyle to worry about" but honestly, even if the dedicated xbows are nerfed out of existence, will having a bunch of two handed heroes with their side arm crossbows on their backs really be any better?
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman.
Post by: Meow on October 21, 2012, 11:57:00 pm
(click to show/hide)

Wall of Text.

Please give us some formatting.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman.
Post by: Darkkarma on October 21, 2012, 11:58:06 pm
Hah. Ill put some pretty spaces in between it just for you, meow.

Edit: Changed it so there's a little structure and easier on the eyes!
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Andy on October 22, 2012, 12:15:13 am
TL;DR
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 22, 2012, 12:31:02 am
Hybrid Crossbow here.

I usually alternate the Melee wpf that goes with it, but I find that the killing power of the arb(2 shots on normal targets with full health) is equivalent to the killing power of my MW light(which is equal to a crossbow in damage terms, and a heavy with +3 bolts). So why should I put 120+wpf into something to gain nothing more than longer range? There is no point, thus I have tons of left over points, and those go into all sorts of things.

Right Now, I'm a tribrid, HX. 120 2h, 100 Xbow, 80 Polearm. 3 HA, 7 PS, 5 Riding.(Level 32). Why should I get off a 21/18 build, and go for a pure xbow build to lose melee capability(Can still use a 2h with a arb) for the same range killing power? Most crossbowmen are often stuck firing from shorter ranges due to the availabilty of terrain cover often being closer to the action, and further from action makes you a cavalry target.

Dedicated just doesn't gain the benefits with xbows like it does all other classes because xbows get 0 modifiers beyond wpf. In addition, with the penalties applied(-25% in rain, severe drop in damage from range), you are FORCED by the game to get close to the action.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Artyem on October 22, 2012, 01:10:56 am
Oh yes, the Hybrid Crossbowman.  The bane of my existence, the reason I start to despise this dreadful game.  There was once a time when you could have fun on cRPG, it was about being unique and using different armor combinations.  There was a time when you leveled up to use new equipment, not to retire and get more heirlooms.  Now all I see when I join a server is five guys in a tower with crossbows and greatswords, and all of the cavalry stacked on one team rolling the server.  Everyone is beginning to use the same armor sets, weapons and everyday I see cRPG slowly becoming Native with a nice multiplayer addition (strategus).

For awhile I just ignored it, I pretended looms didn't even exist, I just played without retiring or worrying about how awesome my weapons needed to be.  And then it just got worse, everyone else was using heirloomed weapons and they were starting to replace currency, so I did what everyone else did and I started to get heirloom points from retiring, and I used them to get my Flamberge to Masterwork status.  About then I noticed that every other player was using some form of ranged backup weapon, or used a two-handed sword and lance from horseback.  It's getting to the point that I really have to grind myself down to my last internal fragments of sanity to play this god damned game without just giving up and rage quitting.  I want to have fun, I really do.

I'm not saying hybrids should be nerfed, or buffed, or even terminated for that matter.  I simply wish to see the return of the fun in the game, for it's the worst nerf of them all.  The game is no longer about having a good time and leveling up, it's all about how many heirlooms you have and how many ways you can combine ranged with melee and still be a death machine either way.  Crossbows take no skill to use, put ten points (or none) into crossbow WPF and you're instantly (or already) a bolt spitting dead accurate killing machine.   Not enough?  Put a few points into riding (you probably already had them left over) and use the two together.

I'd like to see the ability to use Polearms and 1h or 2h / 1h viably again, not just ranged and melee, melee and melee.

Buff fun 2012

EDIT: Not trying to shit on your hybrid parade here, just sharing my deep opinions on where this game is going in my eyes.

/me prepares for incoming wave of -1's from the hundreds of hybrid crossbowmen
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Pentecost on October 22, 2012, 01:11:13 am
I agree with Karma that the Arbalest is honestly not very good. In my entire career thus far, I've been one-shotted by an Arbalest body hit maybe twice? That's pretty disappointing considering I never wear anything more protective than the lightest mail armors. The throwing spear doesn't one-shot me most of the time either, but at least that doesn't have a ridiculously long reload time and isn't neutered by arbitrary game elements like rain. Nor does a Masterwork Arbalest with Masterwork Steel Bolts fare better when you compare it against a Masterwork Crossbow with Masterwork Steel Bolts. Both of them will drop a balanced build with light to medium armor in 2 body shots, but, as Karma said, the latter allows you to use a better melee weapon on top of possibly getting more than one shot off on the target in the first place. I'm not sure what should be done if the situation was to be reviewed, but I do think it should eventually be reviewed.

Quote from: Darkkarma on October 21, 2012, 11:47:49 pm
I've heard bits and pieces of what the next patch is supposed to bring as fair as build balances/nerfs

Mind filling us in? I want to be trolled.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Darkkarma on October 22, 2012, 01:37:54 am
Quote from: Pentecost on October 22, 2012, 01:11:13 am


Mind filling us in? I want to be trolled.

This might not be at all accurate mind you, but id heard that they were going to change the way athletics worked on alot of archers, so that kiting was no longer an issue also something about heavy lances being nerfed a bit. This could all just be here say for all I know though!
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 22, 2012, 01:50:25 am
Quote from: Artyem on October 22, 2012, 01:10:56 am
(click to show/hide)

Honestly, I think the fact that they REMOVED hybrids from the game is what's killing fun. Everyone talks about builds and you almost ALWAYS see people doing heavy builds in 1 weapon and maxing armor/stats around that. I'm fairly certain that MY build would be scoffed at by 80% of players as ineffective because I'm not really specced into any one thing. I can kill, i can play, but that's because my skill is better than most(chambering is beast). All the "best" players are almost all specced as a single build.

EDIT: Also cav is hard :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on October 22, 2012, 01:57:05 am
I have nothing really to say, but I'm going to post to show interest and support.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Osiris on October 22, 2012, 12:55:14 pm
try Arbalest xbowman with 2h ^^ ITs the bane of eu :D That god damned OP little knockdown 1 slot mace  :lol: (and im an arba 1h btw :D i manage to get a fair ammount of kills with the arba and i can hold my own in melee with 86 wpf and a LEE, maybe Na has more str builds so you glance more?)
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: karasu on October 22, 2012, 01:13:00 pm
Quote from: Osiris on October 22, 2012, 12:55:14 pm
try Arbalest xbowman with 2h ^^ ITs the bane of eu :D That god damned OP little knockdown 1 slot mace  :lol: (and im an arba 1h btw :D i manage to get a fair ammount of kills with the arba and i can hold my own in melee with 86 wpf and a LEE, maybe Na has more str builds so you glance more?)

Thank the heavens people haven't discovered yet the wonders of a decent 1h in the hands of an arbalester.  :wink:
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Pejlaen on October 22, 2012, 01:21:43 pm
Quote from: Darkkarma on October 21, 2012, 11:47:49 pm
    Alright, so i'm certain i'm not the first one to make a post like this but its finally gotten to the point where even I am noticing it. I've heard bits and pieces of what the next patch is supposed to bring as fair as build balances/nerfs and all but my question is still why hybrid cross bows/ 2-Hander builds are still clearly so much better than the dedicated arb/1h build? I wont even get into how utterly useless the arbalest is without looms when it comes to actual accurate distance shooting(even at 170 wpf). The regular crossbow is just so damn versatile, especially once you start to loom it.

    Here in NA i've seen countless long time xbow playing individuals switch from either the arb or heavy to the regular crossbow simply because its so good with a two-hander that its like having the best of both worlds. If I miss with my shot on a target and they close in and force me into melee, im at a sizable disadvantage, given how awful most one handers are now with anything under 6 powerstrike. A 2-hander on the other hand has quicker reload time and the opportunity to pull that huge german or danish greatsword off of their backs and melee just as fluidly as a dedicated melee player given how shallow the wpf cap on 2handers is.  The few of us that do stick with the arb do so out of personal preference or in my case, being too stubborn to simply switch to the flavor of the month to stay on top.

     Now, I'm not advocating or asking for a flat out ultra buff of the arb and nerfing of the regular crossbow, but god damn, if you want to de-value body shots and put more incentive on aiming for the head, at least give those of us that choose to actually use the Arbalest the accuracy to shoot people in the head without worrying about our shoots flying off to the left 75 percent of the time.
It shouldn't be impossible to hit a stationary target from distance without aiming your crosshair to the far top right of it simply because our bolts will not fly straight, especially when you have to wait upwards of three seconds in between shots.. As it stands, the hybrid 2 hander/cross bow build is leaps and bounds better than the dedicated arbalest/1 hander build.

    I know alot of dedicated meleers out there will read this and just scoff at this post thinking "good riddance, one less shitty ranged playstyle to worry about" but honestly, even if the dedicated xbows are nerfed out of existence, will having a bunch of two handed heroes with their side arm crossbows on their backs really be any better?

DaveUKR will now recieve and answer all of your questions regarding the Arbalest.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Turboflex on October 22, 2012, 04:13:33 pm
some weapons are just not very good for dedicated builds, and more suited as hybrid options: throwing and xbow

I don't see what's wrong with this. It gives melee chars an option to sacrifice a small % of their skills to get some ranged ability to help them deal with way more obnoxious classes like kiting archers & cav. Cav and archers ruin gameplay a lot more than hybrid melee, and hyrbids are a counter to them.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Falka on October 22, 2012, 04:52:17 pm
Quote from: Turboflex on October 22, 2012, 04:13:33 pm
some weapons are just not very good for dedicated builds,

Meh, there're plenty of players who can do really well as dedicated arbalesters. Even I with my STF alt can make decent scores from time to time.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Gurnisson on October 22, 2012, 04:59:56 pm
I was a dedicated arbalest players for several months, and I can't really see what you're complaining about. I loved being one, and it's imo one of the stronger classes in the game. I can agree that it's not too good at +0, but neither are the other xbows or bows. At +3 it's really solid, and in the hands of a good player, quite devestating. A (minor) accuracy boost could be acceptable, but otherwise it certainly doesn't need a buff.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Darkkarma on October 22, 2012, 06:48:23 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on October 22, 2012, 04:59:56 pm
I was a dedicated arbalest players for several months, and I can't really see what you're complaining about. I loved being one, and it's imo one of the stronger classes in the game. I can agree that it's not too good at +0, but neither are the other xbows or bows. At +3 it's really solid, and in the hands of a good player, quite devestating. A (minor) accuracy boost could be acceptable, but otherwise it certainly doesn't need a buff.

The regular crossbow is  phenomenal without looms. Every item is better with looms of course, but for what you're paying, the standard unloomed xbow is really great! In my opinion it's definitely a much more viable option than the the Arbalest without looms. Furthermore, this was never about saying that the Arbalest was a bad weapon,  but its really quite clear which build tends to get much higher scores and just do better all around in battle.I know the burden of proof is one me to factually back up what i'm saying, and I can't speak for how things are in EU, but just take an honest look. The heavy crossbow has basically been phased out of existence and the number of dedicated Arbalest users are falling. I and a few others here in NA still stick to them and do well with them but even we are asked why we haven't just switched to regular crossbow/2 hand yet. It is quite possible to still do well with an arb if you know what you are doing, but you'd more than likely save yourself alot of time and frustration simply picking up a regular crossbow/great sword combo instead. Why go dedicated and risk experiencing the pitfalls of such a class when you could simply have the best of both worlds instead?

 
Quote from: Pejlaen on October 22, 2012, 01:21:43 pm
DaveUKR will now recieve and answer all of your questions regarding the Arbalest.


You're completely missing the point. Dave has been using the Arbalest even longer than I have. You can't say one build is in a good place just because one or two really good players do well with it. I would love hear his take on this though!
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Swaggart on October 22, 2012, 07:30:38 pm
I just switched to dedicated arbamolester and I have to say that it is pretty irrelevant. I switched because I wanted to be a counter sniper. I figured with a +3 Arb and +1 Bolts I could one shot archers and other xbowers. To my surprise, body shots don't 1 shot archers, and it is surprising how they can survive 96 damage while wearing around 20 body armor. The only players I can consistently 1 shot are low level players, and of course if I score a headshot. Some may argue that no class should have the ability to 1 shot, but considering that an arbalest player is extremely vulnerable between shots it's a significant trade-off. A dedicated archer can 2 shot just as easily as I can, but they're a Gatling gun compared to me.

The other problem is that in my experience, with a 15/24 build and 5 power strike, I feel like I'm playing Glance Glance Revolution. Unless I use a pierce or blunt weapon and I happen to run into the one out of 10,000 strength builds roaming NA, I'll glance and that's all she wrote. I use a +3 Long Espada and if they are packing heavy armor, I'm boned. Sure, the stab is awesome and I have success with it, but being a 1 trick pony is easy to counter. I like swords because they are cooler, give me some range and I'm less likely to be s key hero'd while in melee, and I would really like to keep using them instead of selling out and grabbing a steel pick.

I'm not going to switch back to melee though. Being melee for 9 gens got boring and I wanted something new and challenging. The challenge is bringing the fun back to the game for me, but some tweaks are certainly needed.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Turboflex on October 22, 2012, 07:47:08 pm
Quote from: Swaggart on October 22, 2012, 07:30:38 pm
I use a +3 Long Espada and if they are packing heavy armor, I'm boned. Sure, the stab is awesome and I have success with it, but being a 1 trick pony is easy to counter. I like swords because they are cooler, give me some range and I'm less likely to be s key hero'd while in melee, and I would really like to keep using them instead of selling out and grabbing a steel pick.

Long espada is a terrible wep for 5 ps... You should be using a military sickle in 2h mode or 2h mace.

If you absolutely gotta use a sword, use a langes messer in 2h mode.

When I tried an arbalast gen, countersniping was ok but I prolly got majority of my kills by shotgunning someone and finishing them in melee. Even against plate heavies an arby bolt from 5 feet out to gut really hurts.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Swaggart on October 22, 2012, 07:58:13 pm
I outrange all those weapons you listed with my Long Espada, and depending on the attack I outdamage and I'm faster. I use a 1H as backup, and swords should be just as viable as those weapons you listed otherwise why exist in the game at all.

As to shotgunning, why bother spending any points into Xbows if you're just going to shotgun? Hell, if you're going to put yourself into melee range constantly, there's no point in bringing an arbalest at all.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Darkkarma on October 22, 2012, 08:31:10 pm
Long espada is great but I really found a sweet spot with the italian sword. It plays ALOT like the espada, only a bit shorter and faster. Also, i've taken to the arabian cavalry sword the cut damage and length make it an awesome weapon. It will be a bit on the slow side though with such low wpf.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Nightingale on October 22, 2012, 09:26:38 pm
Desirable here... my opinion matters little, but I decided I'd share it anyway xP  I'd like to believe I am pretty decent at my class "Arbalestier" and I made a build that reflects how I play, I rely heavily on my range damage output that simply doesn't 1 shot anything but peasants, Which you shouldn't waste one of your 13 bolts on them anyway.

the score system its Impossible for me to earn valour even with the highest K/dr,So less xp.
Honestly I don't even know if there is more than maybe 4-5 Pure Arbalestiers NA side. So it must be so overpowered only 4-5 people use it? and because those select few people that have played this class for awhile like myself preform well, means the whole class is OP? I personally do not care what you do to this class, Ill probably play it till cRPG gets boring.

Also If I would have thought it through when starting out I would have chosen heavy crossbow instead of Arbalest, nearly the same damage, same shot ratios but much faster reloading and many more builds to try since it only requires 12 strength.

and my favorite back up weapon is the Niuweidao. or the Military Cleaver  depending on which theme I am trying to go for.

Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: dynamike on October 22, 2012, 10:04:26 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on October 22, 2012, 12:31:02 am
Hybrid Crossbow here.

Right Now, I'm a tribrid. 120 2h, 100 Xbow, 80 Polearm.

Pretty much my build, except shield instead of HX. Sacrificing high stats (I am 19/18 at level 32!) and trading in reduced killing power and survivability for versatility - what's wrong with that?

The game would be really boring if there were only dedicated classes and no hybrids. And besides: being stuck in the mindless grind to lvl 35 in one dedicated class only? Swinging a polearm for 12 trillion XP points straight? No thank you, I'd get bored to death!


Quote from: Darkkarma on October 22, 2012, 01:37:54 am
heavy lances being nerfed

Get ya grubby fingers off my precious!  :evil: I am pretty much the only guy who uses this as the only melee weapon, you would nerf 100% of the population of my class.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 22, 2012, 11:24:13 pm
Quote from: Falka on October 22, 2012, 04:52:17 pm
Meh, there're plenty of players who can do really well as dedicated arbalesters. Even I with my STF alt can make decent scores from time to time.

But when they go melee, they aren't nearly as powerful as they could be if they were straight melee.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Spanish on October 23, 2012, 12:00:20 am
Actually I made an alt inspired by Karma's Xbow skills. It's a dedicated arbalest build 15/27 I think and I prefer the military cleaver as my sidearm. Personally I rarely glance using it unless its a right swing which I'm just terrible at using properly. But most of the time I find my Xbow as secondary to my sword even when I'm landing every shot.

The reload is just so slow that I'll shoot someone and they may run up on me. I could run and get another shot off but it's easier just to engage them and kill them using my cleaver. When it comes down to being effective I often just bring my arbalest to take a few shots and lay low until most people are dead and then brig out the cleaver to mop up.

I havnt played that alt in a long while due to the fact I can't afford the upkeep ever on the arbalest and end up running around with just he cleaver which is lame. The reg Xbow is easier to upkeep faster reload so I get more shots off, carry more ammo and makes it easier stay closer to the fight since the reload speed isn't as slow. The only reason I really like my arbalest is because of the faster projectile speed but I still often miss due to the delay on the shot and the accuracy on an unloomed one is quite terrible :/
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Dach on October 23, 2012, 03:57:02 am
Yup I can attest, just switched back to arbalest + mace instead of 2h + crossbow. Why because of my build...

I'm 15/30 and wanted to try to get most of my athletics by reducing the lenght and weight of my weapon.

Result:

For the same character as far a xbow goes...

Malus: I get less accuracy, way longer reload time, way harder upkeep, also with high athletics I got I could easily kite melee character a bit than reload with the crossbow, can't do that with the arbalest unless I run across half the map.

Bonus: I can oneshot some peasants and can shoot through more shield than the crossbow.

My 2 cents, the crossbow+2h combo is way more efficent and cheap.

I am tempted to even try 2 crossbow + bolt + mace.  :P (will probably shot the first crossbow than drop it to regain my run speed bonus!)
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on October 23, 2012, 05:59:16 am
Didn't read the entire thread, but I was 15-24 arbalestier for two straight gens, which is a long time for my ass. Had 152 crossbow wpf and 75 2h wpf. Used a +2 mace. God damn was I effective. I shot motherfuckers with a deadly accuracy, for extreme damage. When people came at me, I could kick their ass in melee if they were equal or lesser skill than me, and sometimes even better players too. Only had 5 PS and it seemed like a hell of a lot more. Although, I think that has more to do with blunt weapons being much better for just about anyone than cut weapons, or even pierce.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Tibe on October 23, 2012, 06:42:14 am
I played one gen as an arbalester/1h with italian sword. Nothing loomed. I can say I can feel the pain of an arbalester, the damage is very weak for the loooong reload time and weight. Its was quite fun most of the time, but occasionally too many people survived my shots.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Gristle on October 23, 2012, 07:45:37 am
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on October 23, 2012, 08:06:26 am
Dedicated arbalest is not a bad build. You can stay in the top 1/4 of the scoreboard even if you are just picking up the class. It has a lower skill ceiling than archery, but it is viable.

On the other hand, crossbows are THE BEST hybrid weapon type. Absolutely minimal investments of stats and skills. You don't need power strike/draw/throw at all, just a measly 50+ wpf. Bam, you can hit reliably from 30 yards away. The drawback is the upkeep costs (light, regular or arablest  + steel bolts. Regular bolts are garbage at +0 through +3.) make it hard to have heavy armor, a nice horse, or top tier 2H or polearm without suffering negative gold gain on lower multipliers.

If you can afford the luxury of a crossbow into your build, do it.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Falka on October 23, 2012, 11:51:10 am
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on October 22, 2012, 11:24:13 pm
But when they go melee, they aren't nearly as powerful as they could be if they were straight melee.
The only difference between arbalest user and pure melee with 15/24 build is wpf, which is more or less worthless for melee classes anyway. Mace is great weapon, even pure 2hers use it from time to time, especially on siege.  All in all arbalesters sacrifice only some wpf and possibilty to use most of 2h weapons. Not big deal I'd say.

Also, dunno about NA but currently on Eu1 at least 1/4 of the players use arbalests :)
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Digglez on October 23, 2012, 11:54:43 am
crossbow should be 2 slots as well.  only light & hunting should be 1 slot
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Gristle on October 23, 2012, 12:32:28 pm
That is a blatant nerf, Digglez, and in no way makes the Arbalest better, nor does it help the Heavy Crossbow at all. Stop calling for nerfs and start calling for fixes. You are part of the problem.

Right now crossbows break down like this:
Hunting - poor people
Light - horse people
Crossbow - hybrids
Heavy - chumps?
Arbalest - dedicated and hybrid

Light and Crossbow are both perfect for their respective place right now. They are fine and do not need to be touched in any way. You should not nerf something that is working exactly as intended. You should leave it alone and buff the things that are not working as intended. That's the Arbalest and Heavy Crossbow. Leave my Crossbow alone.

Quote from: Falka on October 23, 2012, 11:51:10 am
The only difference between arbalest user and pure melee with 15/24 build is wpf, which is more or less worthless for melee classes anyway. Mace is great weapon, even pure 2hers use it from time to time, especially on siege.  All in all arbalesters sacrifice only some wpf and possibilty to use most of 2h weapons. Not big deal I'd say.

Also, dunno about NA but currently on Eu1 at least 1/4 of the players use arbalests :)

I'm 15/24, and I don't feel weak with either my 136 crossbow or my 129 1H.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Falka on October 23, 2012, 01:32:24 pm
Recently I got MW arba and steel bolts and see enormous difference in damage inflicted with loomed stuff and normal ones. So I do agree that normal arba is rather undepowered but it's also probably cheapest item on the market (with a struck of luck and some patience it's quite possible to buy it for 900 k + tax), so even for newbies it shouldn't be a problem to buy +3 arba.

Quote from: Gristle on October 23, 2012, 12:32:28 pm
I'm 15/24, and I don't feel weak with either my 136 crossbow or my 129 1H.

In Eu it's probably a bit easier to make decent scores with arbalests as we have less str crutchers.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: dynamike on October 23, 2012, 02:39:32 pm
Quote from: Digglez on October 23, 2012, 11:54:43 am
crossbow should be 2 slots as well.  only light & hunting should be 1 slot

Don't diggle me like that.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Swaggart on October 24, 2012, 04:02:14 am
After playing a little bit more, there's two things that are really bothersome.

Even with 150 wpf, my shots don't go straight off the arbalest consistently, plenty of times a bit to the left or right.

And the other thing is that delay. That being removed would make the arbalest a ton better.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on October 24, 2012, 05:04:41 am
2h/crossbow hybrid's fucking stupid. To much good shit for one player to have.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: dynamike on October 24, 2012, 05:30:30 am
Quote from: Gristle on October 23, 2012, 07:45:37 am
  • I agree that Arbalest needs more accuracy. Buff it so it's actually worth the 2 slots, and make the Heavy not worthless while you're at it.
  • Dedicated Crossbow will simply never be an optimal build unless you're a horse crossbowman. The long stationary reload is the biggest weakness in the game.
  • It is so EASY to hybrid as a Crossbowman that there's no reason NOT to do so. Really, what are you doing with all of those skill points?
  • I disagree that 1 handed weapons aren't good enough. Military Pick, Iberian Mace, and Military Cleaver are all good enough with 5 PS.
  • Leave my Crossbow alone.

Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Darkkarma on October 29, 2012, 09:16:42 am
UPDATE:


 After the latest patch, An arbalest with one stack of steel bolts is now at a weight of 9.3.

Perhaps we could make it so that an arbalest on the back reduces the damage of projectiles shot into the back like most shields since it now weighs more than every shield in the game?

Hell even the great maul is only 8.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Dach on October 29, 2012, 09:22:35 am
nah, give it a secondary mode...

melee mode with mallet stat!  :lol:
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Gristle on October 29, 2012, 09:30:30 am
Clearly kiting crossbowmen were a very big problem (to one very angry dev), and they have been balanced appropriately.

Seriously, this is the most pointless nerf I've ever seen. I personally haven't really noticed a difference. Maybe when it rains? I can't help but think that they gave power of the nerf gun to someone with horrible aim. He meant to target bow weight and simply missed! Hey, we all miss sometimes. It happens. How many months will we wait for him to correct his aim?

Quote from: Dach on October 29, 2012, 09:22:35 am
nah, give it a secondary mode...

melee mode with mallet stat!  :lol:

I had this idea today, too. Crossbow as melee weapon, but guaranteed to break. An "oh shit" emergency weapon.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Tovi on October 29, 2012, 09:48:12 am
Under rain, xbows were just non useable. Because slings were too slacky.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Plavor on October 29, 2012, 09:59:53 am
They increased the weight of all crossbows.

The arbalest has now a bit less weight than a maul/mallet...

Arbalest is fine for me but it should get a slightly accuracy buff just to benefit from the choose of an arbalest :)
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Nightingale on October 29, 2012, 12:49:12 pm
It actually weighs .7 more than a mallet, and .3 less than a maul  :(

I am not 100% sure but I don't believe the missile speed was 58 before the patch and that affects the arch of the shot, Which didn't need a nerf in my opinion needed a slight buff and they decided to make it hard to keep up with the team, and less accurate. - accuracy is unchanged but the missile speed feels different. I am assuming I am not completely insane, which I might be wrong.

At the moment, the Heavy Crossbow almost the same damage as the Arb, Faster reloading, Cheaper, same range after figuring out how much more the arch in the shot is and it only requires 12 str meaning more wpf possibilities.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Mammonist on October 29, 2012, 01:17:45 pm
I'm going 15/27 arbalester w/o melee next gen.


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Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Quinnie on October 29, 2012, 03:20:31 pm
I remember that one month where I completely wrecked the NA cRPG community with my arbalest, which wasn't even called an arbalest, yet. (Karma and Duc Volpe-inspired build, by the way.)

This was prior to the heirloom reset that happened however long ago... I want to say a year, but maybe it wasn't that long? Anyway, I re-masterworked my arbalest after the reset just to find out that the reload time was lengthened and there was a decrease in damage. I tried the 1h/Arbalest route for one generation afterward and it was never the same. I could only shoot a maximum of 3 bolts per round, which wasn't worth the frequent repair costs. I lost money anytime I equipped the arbalest.

Let's just say that I never used my MW arbalest, again. And in the last month, I had a friend sell my MW arbalest because I saw that it was no longer a viable asset to cRPG gameplay.

RIP good times with the arbalest.

Signed,
Kolee
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on October 29, 2012, 03:38:04 pm
What was the weight of an arbalest pre-patch? What is it I'm carrying now? A fuckin tank-mounted machine gun with which I can fire 5 shots per minute? In fact, does anyone have the whole set of stats for a pre-patch arba? Just wanna compare, thx!

Edit (after patched patch) Hmmm weight is 3.5 now.
Title: Re: Going dedicated versus hybrid as a crossbowman. (No longer in eyesore format!!)
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 29, 2012, 04:47:19 pm
They fixed crossbow weights down.

Now they aren't maul heavy anymore. 8-)