It will if it repeatedly rides into you. It does do significant damage due to the horse riding into your pike more than you stabbing the horse. The same happens when an infantry player walks into a pike. Also, you cannot argue a pike should kill a horse riding into it in a single stroke if its that heavily armoured.No, but no actual horse can survive running into a pole tipped with pointy iron to the face or chest multiple times, say...2 or 3. In real life, most likely no horse would live through one. Then again, no horse would be decked out in as much plate as that behemoth is. So I am fine with cav having multiple chances to be piked, but that should be 2...or 3 times at most. Not the 4 or 5 a plated charger can survive. It truly is a War Elephant.
Pikes are a formation weapon: always have and always will be. The answer to your problem is therefore more pikes and teamwork. If your arguing for realism (which by the way I am a fan of in games) then a pike should not be as manveurable, players should not be able to pull them out their bottomless pockets, and they should do the same type of damage a couched lance does, proportionate to the velocity of the charging horse.
In other words, a player could sit in a ready stance with a pike to receive a charge.
If your not arguing for realism, then theres no reason to believe a single pike should take down a plated charger. You are not superman.
It will if it repeatedly rides into you."It will if the rider is an idiot and makes the same mistake multiple times." Translation: only if the rider is an idiot.
It does do significant damage due to the horse riding into your pike more than you stabbing the horse. The same happens when an infantry player walks into a pike.Except this infantryman walking into a pike has 4 times the starting life and the equivalent of black plate+ plated gloves. Did I mention he doesn't get the wpf of black armor either?
Also, you cannot argue a pike should kill a horse riding into it in a single stroke if its that heavily armoured.Sure you can! Are you saying that in armor, a horse can't break a leg? Or that you can't stab a horse in the eye, gouging out its brain? Or that you can't attack the unarmored part of a horse? Plenty of ways a horse can die in armor.
Pikes are a formation weapon: always have and always will be. The answer to your problem is therefore more pikes and teamwork.Translation: it should take multiple people to kill a single person on a horse. By this definition, having one person be worth 5 equally skilled players is balanced. If thats the case, I want my polearm of gold balance for my infantry character (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,146935.0.html)
If your arguing for realism (which by the way I am a fan of in games) then a pike should not be as manveurable, players should not be able to pull them out their bottomless pockets, and they should do the same type of damage a couched lance does, proportionate to the velocity of the charging horse.
In other words, a player could sit in a ready stance with a pike to receive a charge.I can't hear you over the sound of you fapping to your horse.
If your not arguing for realism, then theres no reason to believe a single pike should take down a plated charger. You are not superman.Same can be said to your heavy-cav build you are so infatuated with
A horse running 30-40mph getting stopped by a pike in the chest WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PRANCE AWAY.+1
No, but no actual horse can survive running into a pole tipped with pointy iron to the face or chest multiple times, say...2 or 3. In real life, most likely no horse would live through one. Then again, no horse would be decked out in as much plate as that behemoth is. So I am fine with cav having multiple chances to be piked, but that should be 2...or 3 times at most. Not the 4 or 5 a plated charger can survive. It truly is a War Elephant.
+1
AngryScotsman your argument is invalid and irrational. GG Sir. WP.
Once again, citing realism to argue a game balance issue is itself irrational. If you want realism, I'd suggest you consider what I said about proper pike drill and not being able to pull a pike out your pocket, or couching the pike so it does the same damage as couched lance would if the horse rode into it.No no no. You don't fully understand what you are saying. You want plated chargers running around cRPG taking 5 pikes or so before they can finally be killed? Even with a "proper pike drill" do you actually expect the idiots in this mod to perform a basic maneuver?
No doubt, some of you aren't reading fully what I'm writing. I've made my point for now, and thus will leave it at that.
No no no. You don't fully understand what you are saying. You want plated chargers running around cRPG taking 5 pikes or so before they can finally be killed? Even with a "proper pike drill" do you actually expect the idiots in this mod to perform a basic maneuver?
That is irrational. And couching pikes would never be used because they would be outlengthed by any bright and agile horseman with a lance. There shouldn't be tanks on the cRPG battlefield but there are. Everyone knows it too...except you.
Actually. I would be fine with plated chargers tanking it up like a Panzer IV...as long as I can bring my 300p Spartan Laser with me.
Final reply before I go sleep.I did read it. And you are quite incorrect. It shouldn't be a nightmare to kill a horse. It shouldn't take an entire team to kill a horse. The horse shouldn't play the game for someone (see TheFinn). Horses like this shouldn't be part of the game. It is basic common sense.
Hence my distinction of System and Behaviour Visus. Just because people are crap doesn't make it overpowered innately. The incompetance of people is irrelevant to the innate balance of cavalry. Read the first post before jumping in ffs.
And clearly, since your an uneducated scumbag, here's the link about logical fallacies for you to read up on. http://www.logicalfallacies.info/
Next idiot who thinks he's smarter than me please.
One more thing; in response to the 'rebuttals' and someone trying to be a smart arse.Hey hey hey now. I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I am being a smart ass :lol:
Hasty Generalisation Fallacy
"Except this infantryman walking into a pike has 4 times the starting life and the equivalent of black plate+ plated gloves. Did I mention he doesn't get the wpf of black armor either?"Heavy Cataphract:
Speak English.
"Sure you can! Are you saying that in armor, a horse can't break a leg? Or that you can't stab a horse in the eye, gouging out its brain? Or that you can't attack the unarmored part of a horse? Plenty of ways a horse can die in armor."No, I'm saying that your stated logic of using realism as a basis that horses should be near invincible is flawed. My overall argument is that the current system is neither realistic nor balanced and should be changed.
Are you arguing realism or gameplay? Inconsistent argument.
"Translation: it should take multiple people to kill a single person on a horse. By this definition, having one person be worth 5 equally skilled players is balanced."No, its not. If it takes 5 players to take out 1 player with a specific item, then that item is clearly imbalanced. On top of that, a player on horseback in c-rpg has no drawbacks. This is why we designed cavalry in native multiplayer to have worse stats and worse items than their infantry counterparts.
This is a pathetic generalised complaint about cavalry itself with any consideration of mechanics.
". and if you're arguing realism, then you should have to sit-out 1/3rd of all battles to nurse your nasty case of dysentery brought on by the life of a soldier. Realism arguments have no place in c-rpg. We tossed that out with the implementation of the boulder-on-a-stick (aka "long maul.")"Not at all. C-RPG is not based on realism. Several instances in your post you mention realism, but realism is non sequitur
Non sequitur.
"Same can be said to your heavy-cav build you are so infatuated with"Not at all. You claim that players on foot think that they should be superman and unstoppable, your heavy cavalary build which you are defending too much is exactly that. Its strong in all aspects of the game and weak in next to none.
Ad hominem.
And clearly, since your an uneducated scumbag, here's the link about logical fallacies for you to read up on.Hahahahah, using a fallacy and then trying to brag about your knowledge of logic. Irony much? What a fucking idiot.
Next idiot who thinks he's smarter than me please.
[.... awesome arguements...]
Another cocky college freshman who thinks hes a lot smarter than he actually is.
Smacking down teenagers is so fun :lol:
A forewarning to those of you apes who are incapable of rational thinking, have the attention span of the arse end of a camel or have nothing useful to add to this world: this post requires you to follow my reasoning and see why I think cavalry isn't overpowered.
System vs. Behaviour
Firstly, I will define this model I will use to describe this perceived problem.
"System" can be defined as the mechanical aspects of CRPG relating to cavalry; such as cavalry weapons, anti-cavalry weaponry, horse statistics, etc.
"Behaviour" can be defined as the habits, tactics, methods of coping with or defeating cavalry players use against them, etc.
Secondly, there is an important practical distinction between something be overpowered because of the mechanics of the system and something being 'overpowered' due to the (bad) behaviour of people. I will paraphrase a conclusion relating to health and safety law that I think is a useful paradigm in this case. 'Systems don't make mistakes, people do'.
Thus, in order to make this argument, I will have to discuss why I think the System of cavalry in CRPG is innately balanced.
Countering Cavalry
I'll address plated chargers mainly: if the argument applies to them, it applies to other warhorses.
Players don't like the durability of the plated charger. Nor do they like its ability to take chunks out of a players health bar by riding into them. These are poor arguments against the plate charger because of reasons (mainly poor tactics) I will describe further below when I discuss Behaviour. But for now, I will make an observation. A great many players who complain about the plated charger attempt to defeat it using the wrong type of weapon. These same players may also fail to acknowledge that their builds have to have weaknesses. In the end of the day, if one player invests as a cavalry character, and you invest as a foot based character, you would be an idiot to not have acknowledged the threat against you from the cavalry. To that end, the polearms weapon set is a versatile weapon tree that includes many weapons that, if you had been built to counter cavalry properly, you would have no problem with.
The Only Proper Cavalry Counter (As In Reality) Is A Pike
Consider the Long Awlpike. It's a long weapon that can stop a horse attacking you at a 45 degree angle (a tactic used by cavalry players to give the infantry fighter minimum chance to hit). It can also be used with a shield; thus you have some protection against ranged attacks. It does 32 piercing damage and thus will penetrate the heavy armour of the plated charger effectively. No other melee weapon does such significant piercing damage at such distance. Consider also the Pike, its an extremely long weapon that is the ultimate cavalry stopper. It may not kill the cavalry outright, but no weapon should unless the cavalry player rides into it without guard up.
As for characters not built to be defensible against cavalry; it is a poor argument to be surpised when your two handed sword is not reliable weapon against a heavy horse galloping at you at full speed. Or when your bow doesn't little damage to the horse. Good armour would defeat arrows and histrically, a longbow was only effective against mail at about 20m. With a pike, or long awlpike, you would deter that cavalry and defeat it if it was stupid enough to repeatedly attack you. it is an equally poor argument to claim cavalry is overpowered when being attacked by multiple horseman. The fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter if your fighting cavalry or infantry: if you're being hit by multiple enemies you are at a disadvantage (and rightly so). As such, there is no Systematic problem, only a Behavioural one. Wrong weapon, wrong place, wrong expectations.
Other Misperceptions
Poor situation awareness is a common Behavioural reason why cavalry is perceived as overpowered. Consider this: for every cavalry player in CRPG there are usually more capable pike users. That means the cavalry cannot simply ride you over; a common perception by many is that a player on a plated charger (like TheFinn) rides over the enemy team because his horse is impregable. This is nonsense, more often than not the enemy horseman rides over a team because half of them are staring at a wall, leeching, mistime their pike attacks, do not have pikes ready, or expecting that their simple spear will stop the armoured horse. All it takes is one pike out of the entire team to stop a cavalry player. Note also, that a spear will stop an unarmoured horse. Poor situation awareness and team incompetance does not make cavalry overpowered.
Infantry also have mobility that a cavalryman doesn't have in that cavalry is terrain dependent. It is a poor observation to say cavalry is overpowered when standing in the open being flanked by horsemen. You will notice decent players stay near walls, jumping out the way of a charge, evading attacks at the last moment, and detering the cavalry with ready stab attack. Considering that a good archer can do massive damage by headshotting a charging horse, cavalry are actually very limited in what they can do if not armoured. The armoured horses themselves can be stopped a weapon like the awlpike.
Horse Archery
Mechanically, for a horse archer to be a more powerful shot they must invest in Power Draw and thus Strength. For a horse archer to invest in horse archery skills like riding and horse archery, they must invest in Agility. This mitigates the nightmare scenario of a plated charger mounted horse archer. Horse archers are also unable to use a shield when shooting. Once again, I believe there is nothing Systematically wrong with horse archers, but Behaviourally players are frustrated by horse archers but instead of commiting ranged attacks all at once towards the horseman or horse, they get seperated, singled out, shot and killed. No horse archer is impregable to arrows. They cannot wear heavy armour and they cannot equip a shield.
The Onyl Real Problem With Cavalry
In my opinion, the forcefield shield effect on cavalry is the only real overpowered matter on cavalry. The shield is too maneuverable and too effective on horseback with high shield skill. Fixing this is a matter of balance, but all the other situations describe above relate mainly to examples not involving a shield. Sometimes, a pikeman will end up hitting the shield instead of the horse despite aiming for the horse. In the wider dynamics of the game, this is not a major problem as multiple pikemen can and should be employed anyway, as described below.
The Real Problem Is Teamwork
The ultimate contributing factor to the effectiveness of cavalry is the way people play. Cavalry is effectively when ranks are broken, enemies are in disarray, and self-interest is greater than teamwork. Consider that most CRPG players do not use pikes effectively to protect their team or have an expectation that their messy barbarian horde team should be cavalry proof when it exactly those types of rag tag formations cavalry is made to destroy.
In practice, a good team will be able to deter cavalry from their team using pikes, good use of terrain, and having a stake in your teammates surivival rather than your individual kills. There is no decent cavalry player stupid enough to charge into a bristle of pikes. With the addition of friendly horse bumping in the latest patch; cavalry are further limited in who they can attack when looking for openings.
If teams got in the habit of using a mixture of pikes and other weapons when moving across open terrain and stay tight enough to protect each other but not so tight such that weapons start bouncing off people, then it makes it very difficult for cavalry to attack. If once the infantry enters combat and simply 'forgets' about the enemy cavalry: do not be suprised when you get a lance up your arse.
Mounts kill my crpg experience.
People need to stop complaining about OP cav. In my five characters, I have never used a horse, and have never had problems with them. I agree with AngryScotsman in that to kill horses, you need to invest in anti-cav abilities. I have found throwing to be an ample threat to cav, both armored and unarmored. Just because your character's build is weak to cav, doesn't mean that you need to complain about it being OP. My character's weakness is against spammers, due to my incredibly low agility. Balance and weaknesses are something that comes with the game.
BTW I use an Iron Staff on horseback, so I need to get close before hitting.
I'm very afraid that if horses get nerfed, the same nerf would apply to light horses as well, making them absolute shit.
The proper counter to cavalry is cavalry
if you miss, you're fucked, and if you have to go out of your way to throw at a cav, you're almost certainly going to be in a position where a second one can spear the back of your head. As has been pointed out, all they have to do is not be stupid to rack up kills. You, as the foot guy, needs perfect constant 360 degree awareness, good aim, and the good luck to have an idiot charge you when you're prepared for it. Trample damage added to this mix is moronic.
are you playing a deathmatch server? where are your team mates? Stick with your team and use team work to over come these things the same in any other team oriented game.
When I had to maintain additional 10k-30k horse, It suppose to give me a fair advantage. HORSE IS NOT OP, get over with it, learn to teamwork.
Organized cavalry will kill organized infantry, that much is clear.The biggest problem with khergits is their horse archers. It's pretty possible to stop the all-lancer team with a balanced force, otherwise everyone would play cav only.
These arguments remind me of Native Khergits vs anything else comments. "Oh you just have to be organized as non Khergit, they are not overpowered." Right, so it's balanced because you have to be organized and enemy can act like headless chicken and still can win.
When I had to maintain additional 10k-30k horse, It suppose to give me a fair advantage. HORSE IS NOT OP, get over with it, learn to teamwork.
Imo horse should at least, use on of the normal 4 slots.I actually agree on this one.
Does these advantages always a deciding factor of who wins? Too many other factors are important to know outcome.
Plated charger are OP, but how many of them you see right now? Pre-patch there was a rare situation to see more than one of them at the same time. Not all of the "plate charger riders" was owning just because of the horse, does Finn became a bad cav now?
But what you really want? Get back to summer? When horses was so underpowered that you rarely saw them at all.
"Player + horse > player + nothing" that depends on many other factors, like their skill, equipment, level.
Let's get it straight, using the same approach:
"Player + bow\xbow > player + no shield"
"Player + shield > player + bow\xbow"
"Player + bow + horse> player + horse"
Thing is however, that horse is in an extra slot.
That means:
Player + Horse + Anything > Player + Anything.
Imo horse should at least, use on of the normal 4 slots.
(click to show/hide)
Imho cavalry is in no way an easy way to play.
You're mostly target number one of the enemy team. Pikes and ranged weapons give you a hard time and a horse doesn't really take much damage except for armoured horses.
The greatest advantage is that you can catch unaware people and deal 1 hit kills with that skill.
That's mostly due to the silencer hoof though. If cavalry hoofsteps would be more louder, this whole thing could be a lot more balanced.
Ignoring that your maths is wrong (you're calculating the momentum which is in N*s and you'd be better off calculating the kinetic energy unless you know the stopping distance and thus deceleration of the horse in order to find the force), no one is currently arguing realism anyway. Even so, I'd imagine that a pike would not break anyway; they were typically made of ash or similar woods which bend significantly before breakage (hence their use in some types of bows). Unless the horse managed to bend the pike considerably in order snap it, I cannot see how it would break (certainly not through compression from being landed on - the pike would sooner pierce through the entire horse before that happened). Still, I'd actually be ok with pikes breaking on use if they killed any horse one shot (can't say many cav would be ok with that though). We're not asking for pikes to one-hit a horse at any rate.
I agree with the silent hooves bit, though if your avatar represents how you play, I'd say your perception is a little skewed. If you're only playing on a light horse then you'll probably feel the full wrath of horse haters (i.e. every non-cav will target you), but you'll have a horse that has significantly lower armor and health than a tank-horse and only a little more speed and manoeuvrability to help. You might have noticed that in several 'nerf cav' threads, the posters have actually been talking about nerfing the tank horses and buffing the light horses.
The Only Proper Cavalry Counter (As In Reality) Is A Pike
In reality, spear was also proper cavalry counter. I know you don't get it, so i suggest you to read more books about medieval battles or not use (as in reality) argument.
Which battle might that be?
Which battle might that be?
Ok 1st thing is first. Why would you calculate it using kinetic energy? Kinetic energy is defined as the work needed to accelerate a body of a given mass from rest to its stated velocity, But this is a horse, not a high-tech machine, and this pixelated horse unless its running over completely flat ground is not going to keep the same velocity, therefore it is not kinetic energy, therefore you are dumb.
And 2. i was stating the force applied on impact. If you want to know deceleration look at the games. INSTANT OMG. And IRL i guess it would be over a few metres. YA dont want horse corpses plowing into the pikesquad.
And i never said my maths was right in the first place, IF YOU READ YOU APE, you will see below what i had done i go on to say, 'Considering my findings. If correct that is'
And i don't really see a problem in my maths tbh, it seems like what i had done in high-school. (F=MA) Force= Mass x Acceleration
unless that is the force required to get it to move, that's where its wrong but not the maths, because simple multiplication is not difficult.
so there fore what i did was correct but might just have the wrong value in the velocity part.
Mattressi, thank you for doing exactly what i wanted, you made my post what it was, it was meant to stir a reaction and it did, thank you for that.
But i want you to explain one thing, lets say that the horse it at an average velocity of 11m/s, because the horse is sustaining that speed but cannot keep it exactly 11m/s means that it isnt kenetic energy, so rule that out. (i know im going into miniscule details but as you said, TROLL POST?) sooooo. that means lets say, the horse is accelerating at .3m/s because it is already going near its top speed (just saying that this is this horses top speed) that it cant accelerate any faster. so are we going to do .3m/s x 500kg :/ . so that now seems awfully wrong, unless we calculate it like you said, deceleration, so lets say the horse stopped over 2.5 metres, so it is short of the pikemen. AND if i the horse came to a complete stop after half a second. random time chosen, although at the speed the horse was travelling prior, the deceleration will be great as we both know. so we are going to do, initial speed - final speed /time taken.
11m/s - 0m/s / .5 = ==== -22m/s.. now if we do acceleration x mass -22 x 500 = 11000 N or whatever now im not saying this is correct. but its still alot of force.
and waiiit a minute, how did anything that i said specifically insult you. self esteem problems i see.
i had to modify this after i read something you said. You took a troll point from me? wow that hurt a lot, thank you for enlightening me on the fact that there is actually TROLL POINTS. And that you felt the actual need to take one from me makes me feel special, thanks :D
Thanks for the physics statemnt Mattressi, and no thanks for Toldfield for bringing up this RL argument wich... we call bs when trying to balance a GAME.