cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: WhiteAndMilky on September 13, 2012, 01:00:31 am
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Ok, I am still fairly new to MnB. But I really don't get why defense sides often will camp their flag from the very start of the game.
Everyone seems to think it is the best thing to do though... So someone please explain it to me, and I will explain why I think it is... not wise. On some of the un-defendable maps I can understand... but when a map has multiple gates to monitor, and few points of entry......
While everyone is sitting at the flag, you are giving up very valuable bottleneck areas. For example, one guy with a long maul or a few guys with mauls can sit at a ladder, and defend it for a very long time, killing many enemies and preventing their advance.
You also give up good strategies like letting 1 or 2 enemies through a doorway, then closing it... killing those 2 enemies. Those 2 enemies are now dead, and unable to hack away at your door, which makes their attack slow down.
But what you say? What about the sneaky people who come in and ninja cap your flag? Oh well I'm sorry, but all you need is one or two teammates to keep eyes on the flag, they don't even need to camp it. Also you should be paying attention to all points of entry at any given time.
A good late game strat is you have the agi builds run around the enemy once they have broken through, drop all ladders, and then close the gates. I have done this in games many times and stalled the enemy by 30 seconds - a whole minute, that's huge! If ONE person can stall an entire enemy attack force by 30 seconds or more....
Eventually yes, the enemy will probably break through, but you have delayed them and wasted much of their time. NOW you can all camp your flag.
The way I look at the "all camp the flag" strat is that it's basically setting yourself up for multiple rounds of "battle" on a seige map.
1. Enemy runs in, unhindered destroying your defenses and opening your gates.
2. Enemy encounters your team at the flag. Initiate "battle" sequence.
--a) your team loses this battle, enemy captures your flag, since you can't respawn quick enough.
--b) your team wins, sustains some losses, and lowered health. continue to 3
3. Enemy team reforms, and makes a second push, this time there aren't even hindered by your natural defenses (gates, doors) and they just walk in.
--a) battle again, your team is weaker this time and you lose. They capture the flag.
--b) You win the battle, with the same results as before. Some teammates wounded, some dead. Continue to 4.
4. Repeat #3 over and over again, in the hopes that you win each and every "battle" mode at your flag.
The only times I see this strategy pulled off, is when there is a large number of one clan on the defense team. Which I would expect to happen, since communication is such a huge factor in the success of military engagements.
So call me stupid, noob, idiot, whatever. But someone please explain to me why this is a better strategy than defending your castle from the outer defenses and then moving inwards as they breach through slowly.
TLDR: Don't be lazy, read it or don't post, it won't hurt my feelings if you don't post :)
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One simple reason.
Ninjas.
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One simple reason.
Ninjas.
But what you say? What about the sneaky people who come in and ninja cap your flag? Oh well I'm sorry, but all you need is one or two teammates to keep eyes on the flag, they don't even need to camp it. Also you should be paying attention to all points of entry at any given time.
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Often times when there's not a large number of people in the server, sitting at flag is the only viable option when there's too few players to equally distribute them to checkpoints on the fort or castle.
Another example (as you stated) are maps that are highly indefensible, maps that are easy for attackers to take over points that route directly to flag. Also, getting your team compacted together near the flag does increase chances of a win because offense is most likely going to trickle in and be spread out, whereas your defenders are already together and ready to handle each person as they approach.
Too often in Siege, a loss can be accredited to a lot of the team being off "Soloing" or defending objectives that are otherwise null for the overall success of the team.
Wish there were more reasons I could give, or better explanations, but all-in-all it's one tactic that proves successful, when all others are shoddy.
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Blah
Implying that ninjas aren't capable of killing people...
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Often times when there's not a large number of people in the server, sitting at flag is the only viable option when there's too few players to equally distribute them to checkpoints on the fort or castle.
Another example (as you stated) are maps that are highly indefensible, maps that are easy for attackers to take over points that route directly to flag. Also, getting your team compacted together near the flag does increase chances of a win because offense is most likely going to trickle in and be spread out, whereas your defenders are already together and ready to handle each person as they approach.
Too often in Siege, a loss can be accredited to a lot of the team being off "Soloing" or defending objectives that are otherwise null for the overall success of the team.
Wish there were more reasons I could give, or better explanations, but all-in-all it's one tactic that proves successful, when all others are shoddy.
So basically you're say that this is the easiest strategy for people to grasp and complete when you have a team that is more or less communication-less, with people that are generally oblivious to their surroundings, and get tunnel vision with single objectives (ie one single ladder)
I can understand that.
EDIT: It should be noted that I come from playing a pikeman build, and now play mostly agility builds. I have also been playing competitive multiplayer games for many years. So I am used to paying attention to what is behind me, and what is going on at multiple locations at any given time.
For instance as a pikeman, I have to keep a constant eye out for enemy cavalry and monitor their movement, and alert my team of danger.
As a high agi build, I need to constantly watch my back and monitor where enemy archers are placed, as I can die in 1 hit.
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Implying that ninjas aren't capable of killing people...
I don't see where you're going with this. Are you implying that ninja builds are unkillable?
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The thing is, if you don't watch the flag, you'll never be sure if your teammates are actually watching it. Happens a lot that you're happily fighting at the wall just like everyone else and then suddenly you lost. Even if there is a few defenders, they will first fight, die and then type that the flag is in peril. After 30 seconds of respawn time ofcourse. Flag can easily get ninjacapped.
Also, when people do not get encouraged to camp the flag, you get a handful of defenders spread out all over the place. You need a large concentration to not be swept away as soon as a solid wave comes through, mostly created by a door breaking or a tower reaching a wall. Such a wave can mop up seperate defenders everywhere and before they respawned the round is lost. Also, if the attackers break through somewhere, it's going to be hard to actually get to the flag because you will be slowed down considerably by all the attackers you meet on your way, so to make sure a quick breakthrough does not result in loss you need to have a buffer at the flag.
Another thing to keep in mind is that attackers have a 5 second respawn, so the closer you kill them to their spawn, the faster they'll be back. Kill someone at the front wall, he waits 5 seconds to spawn and does a 10 second walk, compared to your 30 seconds. The flag is mostly the furthest away from the attackers spawn, so they most likely take longer than the defender spawn time to get to the flag. So ultimately killing attackers at the flag is the most beneficial to your team.
It depends on the map though, some maps are rather secure for the first few minutes and defending chokepoints is actually worth it. Generally though, camping the flag provides a simple and good chance at victory for the defenders, even though not perfect it won't make the defenders lose by surprise.
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Now only if we still had ladders. *sigh*
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The tactic seams to work there is not much more to it....
Many people me included put one life to the walls and then try and stick close to the flag, its a viable and good tactic to protect those bottlenecks you where talking about for atleast some amount of time. But ofc this is only viable if there are friendly's on the flag allready.
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I completely understand what you're saying Milky. I've done the same thing a few times in siege but camping the flag is usually the best tactic. Only because its hard to organize a completely random team and actually have them follow your orders. I would wager that it'd be smart for defenders to have one or two people try to shut gates or doors if it will actually benefit the team and slow down attackers with the remaining defenders holding the flag.
It would probably work out the best in that case since if the duo or single person fails to shut the door, the defenders have only lost 1 or 2 people while still having the bulk of the team holding the flag (in the best possible scenario). If the team could have people that volunteered/were ordered to be the saboteur, then it would work out much better. Then you have one or a few people that understand their sole purpose is to shut down all ladders/gates/doors/etc to slow down and disrupt the enemy team as much as possible.
Wouldn't work on all maps but on some maps it would definitely destroy the momentum of the attackers.
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Well, I´d like to add to your description that players usually don´t camp the flag from the very beginning but die their first death on the front walls.
Reasons for it:
-The chance that the flag will be taken during this first "life" is very low
-A first "life" can be pretty long if you do it right
-If it is done right, it will take several attempts for the attackers to finally come to fight on the walls/ capture the gatehouse.
But there is one more thing what makes it useful to camp the flag after this: If I remember right, the spawn selection is somehow based on the locations of the players alive - if many people are fighting on the walls while the flag is attacked, the dying flag defenders will spawn far away from the flag and therefore the chance for the attackers to successfully capture the flag is increased.
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Ever played NW mod. Seige in that is far better.
On topic now. Movement speed is often capped in seige so ordinarily competent players cant hold their own against large mobs because their footwork is nullified. So you have to fight in large groups to efficiently hold back opponents.
Another factor is the lack of Infantry ranged attcks (throwing). For most infantry they have to wait for the enemy to come to them so why not wait a bit longer and not put youreself at risk of being attacked by archers and crossbowmen.
All in all if you want strategy play strategus, NW, PW, VikingR, Native or M&G not cRPG
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I would wager that it'd be smart for defenders to have one or two people try to shut gates or doors if it will actually benefit the team and slow down attackers with the remaining defenders holding the flag.
From my experience in KUTT, this is actually very beneficial IF and only IF, you actually have some organization to it. If you don't allocate your players well when doing something like this, you end up with too many rushing to the gates/doors, and have too few on the flag, so it gets taken anyway. This is the problem with trying any kind of tactics aside "camp flag" with people who don't have voice comm, or simply aren't organized enough. Assuming you actually manage to get some people to listen to you, you end up with half the defending team rushing the gatehouse/walls that have at most 2-3 enemies on them, and the flag is completely overrun while the defenders take the gatehouse/walls back.
Tactics in siege are completely viable, but you HAVE to have good communication, and have people that will actually follow orders. Even then though, it's generally best if 90% of the team just sits at flag. That, is simply an intrinsic flaw in the design of siege mode. With attackers always spawning at the same points, the longer you make them run to you, the better. As such, the flag is the best place to kill people.
There are some maps where there are key chokepoints, but for most of them, the chokepoints just aren't worth it aside from having at most 2-3 people at them. For example, I'll often team up with Para, and stab over his wall of steel. Makes it very hard to get by. :lol:
However, if you have too many people, or people who can't take a beating, at a chokepoint, you're just wasting resources.
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All very good answers, and just what I was looking for!
So to sum it all up, basically it's just the go-to easy-to-understand strat that works for anyone from pubbies to experienced players. It works on every map and everyone knows about it.
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From my experience in KUTT, this is actually very beneficial IF and only IF, you actually have some organization to it. If you don't allocate your players well when doing something like this, you end up with too many rushing to the gates/doors, and have too few on the flag, so it gets taken anyway. This is the problem with trying any kind of tactics aside "camp flag" with people who don't have voice comm, or simply aren't organized enough. Assuming you actually manage to get some people to listen to you, you end up with half the defending team rushing the gatehouse/walls that have at most 2-3 enemies on them, and the flag is completely overrun while the defenders take the gatehouse/walls back.
Tactics in siege are completely viable, but you HAVE to have good communication, and have people that will actually follow orders. Even then though, it's generally best if 90% of the team just sits at flag. That, is simply an intrinsic flaw in the design of siege mode. With attackers always spawning at the same points, the longer you make them run to you, the better. As such, the flag is the best place to kill people.
There are some maps where there are key chokepoints, but for most of them, the chokepoints just aren't worth it aside from having at most 2-3 people at them. For example, I'll often team up with Para, and stab over his wall of steel. Makes it very hard to get by. :lol:
However, if you have too many people, or people who can't take a beating, at a chokepoint, you're just wasting resources.
Yeah I kind of figured. If someone were to say in team chat "We need 2 people to focus on keeping the gates closed as much as possible" without the majority of the team being in TS along with you, it has a good chance of screwing you over since a lot more than 2 people would try to close the gates and ignore the flag.
So yeah I can see clan TS/vent/etc being a lot more effective with that kind of tactic.
Kind of sad its so hard to organize people in siege/battle. Probably comes down to that rambo style crpg has. If we focused more on teamplay and kept that up, it might stick. Siege could definitely use some more teamplay/tactics other than "stay here and don't move".
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Honestly when me and my boys hit the siege, we spend more time killing people than actual flag camping. I think it's more fun spending time holding choke points and trusting the rest of the team to do their part.
That isn't as effective as camping the flag, but cleaving through an unlimited amount of fodder with your bros is a metric ton of fun.
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If u kill enemy on flag he need 20-35 sec to come back
If u kill enemy on wall he need 5-10 sec to come back
So on flag u need K/D like 1/1 and on wall 3/1, cos all randoms stupid and nabs they all die on wall with kd 1/100 that's why all clans forced to camp flag :D
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Because it is almost the only viable tactic on many maps that don't have highly defendable chokepoints. And, as was said already. the closer to flag you kill an attacker, the greater the gain for your team.
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Simple, defenders take 30 seconds to spawn, attackers 3. Make the attackers walk at least 27 seconds before you fight them and basically have the same spawn time, thus your disadvantage disappears. Making the enemy walk as far as possible means camping flag.
+ lack of communication and cooperation in random teams to defend a bigger area efficient.
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Camp at flag or lose! One and the only rule for defenders.
Seen a zilion times that the knabs defend the walls, while attackers capturing flag.
FLAAAAAAAAAAAAAG - but they fighting at walls - FLAAAAAAAAAAAAAG - they don't hear you, they defending the walls ...........
Camp at flag or lose! - cant be more simple.
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Camp at flag or lose! - cant be more simple.
Well, it is not. It always depends on the map. Sure, camping flag is not a bad thing, but there are maps, where open Gates means instant lose for defenders.
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cos all randoms stupid and nabs they all die on wall with kd 1/100 :D
Dont call newbies stupid and nabs. It makes you look like shit.
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Because the attackers are disorganized and so are the defenders.
Camp the flag works because this requires the average player to kill people near flag instead of anywhere else where he'd normally be.
I've also noticed that closing a gate is sometimes a flood gate effect on the attackers. When the enemy opens it there's suddenly a huge group of enemies attacking instead of the pointless steady stream which defenders can cut down. In this way, bottlenecking the enemy is risky.
Then there's the spawn time thing. Killing attackers closer to their spawn requires a higher k/d.
And to even have 1 person spotting "ninjas" at flag is not enough, because shouting "flag" does not necessarily work in random groups. People just play team deathmatch.
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I usualy spend my first life on walls then i go around the flag.
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If u kill enemy on flag he need 20-35 sec to come back
If u kill enemy on wall he need 5-10 sec to come back
So on flag u need K/D like 1/1 and on wall 3/1, cos all randoms stupid and nabs they all die on wall with kd 1/100 that's why all clans forced to camp flag :D
pretty much this. :D
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Defending multiple entry points is extremely prone to failure. One of them failing is enough for the entire castle to be stormed very fast. Also, enemies reach entry points much faster than the flag, on most castles.
Defending the smallest number of chokepoints works much better as you can concentrate your forces.
It is true though, that the art of slowing down the attackers rather than blindly killing them seems lost. I often find myself swarmed by attackers when I stay too close to an early entry point, but when it happens I don't try to kill them, just slow them down and annoy them, which usually proves to be much more effective. The longer I stay alive, the longer the delay until most of the mob can advance. And with a shield you can stay alive veeery long.
Similarly, the art of pushing defenders at a chokepoint rather than killing them is not very widespread either. Most attackers will try to kill the first defender they see, even though just moving past him attracts the attention of the defenders and opens up the way for the attacker behind you.
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Similarly, the art of pushing defenders at a chokepoint rather than killing them is not very widespread either. Most attackers will try to kill the first defender they see, even though just moving past him attracts the attention of the defenders and opens up the way for the attacker behind you.
THIS. My god, THIS. When at the top of a ladder, or at a chokepoint, so many times I see the attackers just holding there, afraid to jump in. Yes, you WILL die if you jump in, no you will NOT get a kill, but it breaks the front lines. Sadly, when I try and tell people this, they tend to just make snappy remarks. :lol:
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Oh yes. I often find it tragically hilarious that a ninja has to run through the lines because the plate users and shielders are too afraid to die. And yes, I die when I do it, usually.
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THIS. My god, THIS. When at the top of a ladder, or at a chokepoint, so many times I see the attackers just holding there, afraid to jump in. Yes, you WILL die if you jump in, no you will NOT get a kill, but it breaks the front lines. Sadly, when I try and tell people this, they tend to just make snappy remarks. :lol:
There is nothing worse than having 15 of your team on a ladder, only to have 2 shielder teammates stop right at the top and stare at 1-2 enemies.....
I will admit to kicking said teammates in the ass until they 1) get out of the way or 2) get killed by the enemy and let me rush through the defenses like a normal, disruption-oriented attack force should do.
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There is nothing worse than having 15 of your team on a ladder, only to have 2 shielder teammates stop right at the top and stare at 1-2 enemies.....
I will admit to kicking said teammates in the ass until they 1) get out of the way or 2) get killed by the enemy and let me rush through the defenses like a normal, disruption-oriented attack force should do.
carefull there, they may just try to wait for the right moment and also depending on their positioning they may already block swings of defenders where other attackers could use.
I am complettly against camping directly on the flag position and even worse not moving against incoming enemies but just staying staticly on the flag. Sitting Ducks. Overall it does depend on the map if there are chokepoints nearby. The closer those chokepoints are to the flag, perhaps even with a line of sight to the flag, the better. I don't say no to flag camping, i just want to point out that positioning and mindset needs to be defensive and aggressive :rolleyes:. If you use chokepoints, make sure you get line of sight regularly to the flag so you can see if someóne sneaked in already. If someone of the chokepoint team goes to have a look for the flag, either wait for him to show upper block as sign to follow(warning message about flag?) or stay at the chokepoint till he or someone else reinforces that position.
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I've made it an art of jumping over the ladder into the defenders and causing as much chaos as possible. Feels good when my allies follow up and kill the 5+ people with their backs to the ladder (cause they focus on me). Does NOT feel good when my allies stand and watch as the enemy all turns to me, kills me and then face back to the ladder where my allies finally decide to try jumping in, even though it's way too late.
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Oh yes. I often find it tragically hilarious that a ninja has to run through the lines because the plate users and shielders are too afraid to die. And yes, I die when I do it, usually.
Even as an archer it is soooo damn useful to just push in. Grabbing the 0slot-stuff and just go wild with it is awesome xD
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If you are at the top of a ladder and actually killing defenders, i think its ok to "block" it.
If you are not killing them..... get the fuck out of the way please :)
With a polearm or a 2hs you can usually stab and overhead some ppl and then break in, but its impossible if ppl are hugging your ass so you cant move.
Shielders can often just push right through.
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Simple , in order to win , attackers have to capture flag and to capture flag they have to stand near it.
Why would you defend the "ways to flag" while you could just simply defend the flag itself ?
Of course defending chokepoints are supposed to be the best method to defend instead of leaving the walls and camping flag but if you are not organized , a random group of non communicating nabs (Its like that most of the time) cannot defend multiple choke points .
But sitting at flag and killing people who are charging at you one by one (Because most of the time attackers are non communicating random group of people also so they'll just run to flag like bots 1by1 derp) is easy to do.
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I remember back in 2010 when I played on 22nd siege, the attacking side often was the most difficult because you had to organise synchronised charges, blocking the flow of lemmings for a few seconds just to force a big group to attack together rather than one after another.
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In an ideal world (on balanced maps with competent players) you would be guarding choke points evenly amongst teammates, and covering ALL avenues of approach.
This is c-rpg siege however, most of the maps are fucking terribly imbalanced for defense or attackers, and most of the players are lemmings.
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you're right, camping the flag is a crap strategy, but it's simple, and doesn't rely on any teamwork to succeed.
If you have 3 people at backdoor, 3 at gate, 5 at ladders, etc etc, then when one point is getting overwhelmed the entire thing relies on someone typing that they're getting ass bitten before they die, which very few people do.
If you had an organised clan defence, with the team split evenly amongst the walls / bottlenecks with hammers, crossfires and stuff then most of the castles in the game would be literally impossible to take ;).
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That's the game's goal man.
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If u kill enemy on flag he need 20-35 sec to come back
If u kill enemy on wall he need 5-10 sec to come back
So on flag u need K/D like 1/1 and on wall 3/1, cos all randoms stupid and nabs they all die on wall with kd 1/100 that's why all clans forced to camp flag :D
If everyone camps flag and you all get killed you're pretty much lost but if you all die on walls you can recover atleast once usually.
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If everyone camps flag and you all get killed you're pretty much lost but if you all die on walls you can recover atleast once usually.
And that's usually what happens. Defenders never go straight to the flag. Only 2-3 people do that and it's enough.