cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Tzar on August 22, 2012, 11:38:50 am

Title: Its time.
Post by: Tzar on August 22, 2012, 11:38:50 am
Its time to remove the free wpf gain from lvl and place the gain in form of wm points.

STR no brainers have had enough fun its time to balance things out.

Wanna be able to 1 hit people an take a gazillion hits you should be swinging your weapon like an old lady.

Agi builds wouldn't get more wpf with my suggestion nothing would change only the fact that retarded build with 0 agi investment wouldn't be given a 117 free wpf by just lvling up.

Also imho i don't think only stacking str should be even viable in the first place.

Yes or no  :?:

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Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: sF_Guardian on August 22, 2012, 11:41:03 am
Sounds valid, at least a bit Agi should be taken in any build, +1.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Vibe on August 22, 2012, 11:49:07 am
Yes
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: sF_Guardian on August 22, 2012, 11:50:22 am
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Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Vibe on August 22, 2012, 12:01:50 pm
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Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Tzar on August 22, 2012, 12:21:17 pm
Inb4 NA/Baddies shitstorm hits the thread  :lol:
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Vkvkvk on August 22, 2012, 01:53:00 pm
Inb4 NA shitstorm hits the thread  :lol:

Though we have a reputation of strength crutching, I'm fairly sure some of us would agree with your idea, I know I do and I know people who does.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Fuma Kotaro on August 22, 2012, 01:56:14 pm
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TIME FOR IT FINALLY
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: owens on August 22, 2012, 02:01:39 pm
why?
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: zagibu on August 22, 2012, 02:12:09 pm
To balance str builds with agi builds. I like the idea, although I mostly play str builds.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: dodnet on August 22, 2012, 03:18:11 pm
OMG... Agiwhores revolting! Call the police!  :?
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Corwin on August 22, 2012, 03:26:18 pm
NO.

As a principle, I disagree with every solution that may lead to reducing the diversity of builds. STOP 18/21 and 21/18 dominance! NO PASARAN!

Playing xbow, just for record.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 22, 2012, 04:14:43 pm
NO.

As a principle, I disagree with every solution that may lead to reducing the diversity of builds. STOP 18/21 and 21/18 dominance! NO PASARAN!

Playing xbow, just for record.

Agreeing with Corwin, we already have suffered a noticeable hit in the diversity of builds, we don't need another "force" change, balancing needs to be more subtle and not so brute force. Add perks to agi, don't hammer away "other" builds.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: TurmoilTom on August 22, 2012, 04:16:42 pm
STR builds are fine, it's just that agility focused builds don't have enough going for them.

Don't nerf STR, buff AGI.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Leshma on August 22, 2012, 04:28:42 pm
Buff hybrids and you'll see more build diversity.

Btw. even with 1 wpf your swings are fast enough (for 2H mostly), only problem is reduced damage.

Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Nehvar on August 22, 2012, 04:43:48 pm
Its time to remove the free wpf gain from lvl and place the gain in form of wm points.

STR no brainers have had enough fun its time to balance things out.

Wanna be able to 1 hit people an take a gazillion hits you should be swinging your weapon like an old lady.

Yes or no  :?:


Yes.  Builds sporting 10+ power strike should not also have 111 weapon proficiency at no weapon master investment.  A change like you suggested might make siege more enjoyable for non-STR builds.  +1

NO.

As a principle, I disagree with every solution that may lead to reducing the diversity of builds. STOP 18/21 and 21/18 dominance! NO PASARAN!

Playing xbow, just for record.

You won't need six or seven weapon master to get ~111 weapon proficiency.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Shub on August 22, 2012, 04:44:02 pm
 "I disagree with every solution that may lead to reducing the diversity of builds. " - agree


"Buff hybrids and you'll see more build diversity.

Btw. even with 1 wpf your swings are fast enough (for 2H mostly), only problem is reduced damage."  Not true imo . Only true for some weps not all in class. so generalization here is inappropriate
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Tzar on August 22, 2012, 05:09:32 pm
I don't think corwin read my suggestion.

Only full retard builds which involves nothing but spamming str would lack wpf everyone else would keep their current wpf.

A change like you suggested might make siege more enjoyable for non-STR builds.  +1

My thoughts exactly sick of behemoths which can take 1 mw jarid to the face or 6/7 katana swings. an only need to hit you once....
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Elindor on August 22, 2012, 05:16:25 pm
Inb4 NA/Baddies shitstorm hits the thread  :lol:

Hey im NA and I FULLY support this  8-)  NA isnt all str whores.
--> 21/21 w MW Longsword

Anyhow, IMHO those who have a invested in some WM (like myself) dont need to get any faster per say....its that the choice to not invest ANYTHING in agi/wm should yield a pretty slow character - slower than they are now.

Just as a character with 0 PS hits for pretty low damage.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Leshma on August 22, 2012, 05:36:42 pm
Only full retard builds which involves nothing but spamming str would lack wpf everyone else would keep their current wpf.

Suggested that two times already. Basic idea is to allow subpar wpf with 1 WM (about 60), 120 wpf with 2 WM, 160 or 175 with 3 WM and that would be the wpf limit. If you put more points into WM, let's say 6, you can have max wpf in two categories, let's say 1H and throwing.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Elindor on August 22, 2012, 05:39:08 pm
Could be that first couple points in WM got you back to the 110 wpf that people now get from leveling, and after that WM resumes its normal course....

So people need maybe 3 WM to get 110 wpf.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Leshma on August 22, 2012, 06:02:13 pm
2 WM for 120 wpf is fine, really. You can have 33/6 which gives you lower damage output than 36/3 build. Also in order to put 2 points in WM you'll have 2 less IF, not that noticeable but better than it's now.

With this system, some builds, like pure 30/9 build might seem too OP. Mainly because they could have 175 wpf in one category and 10 PS.

But they can be easily countered by 18/18 6 WM, full wpf 1H/thrower. Hybrids get the biggest buff that way.

Only full str, no wm build, will be nerfed. Not removed, just not viable like it's now. But everything else would be buffed big time.

Also, build diversity is great on paper atm. Problem is that certain builds are so much better than the others. That's why actual build diversity is pretty bad atm. Everyone is using cookie cutter builds.

What they need to do is to actually give us less possible build diversity in theory, but balance those remaining builds so that they are all equally viable and desirable. Easier to do with smaller build pool, what we have now and poor build balance is just proof of that.

Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Vex. on August 22, 2012, 06:08:24 pm
Time to favor agi builds?

Alright let's just start with the advantages of a dedicated str my old friend.
High dmg and high hp, fair enough?
Archers and other ranged are so god damn weak when they hit. Rus bow & bodkins 5-15% each hit (atleast on me)
Takes low bump damage from ponies

Disadvantage
Can't run away from a gangbang.
Can't chase archers down.
Can't do hiltslashes.
Feint's are useless because of the slow swings.
They are easily spammed.
Can't dodge couches by jumping away or running away (due the slow movement speed)

Alright lets go with the agi builds advantage
Can hiltslash like a boss.
Can feint like a mad lama looking for grass in alaska
Can run away from ganking easily
Can fight 4 ++ enemies at once
Can chase down archers

disadvantage:
Die quickly if you don't block that well
Ranged do alot of damage if they hit you in the freaking left toe.
Bump damage hurts like a bitch! (but easily dodged if you have battle awareness)

And onehitting happens alot if you have around 13-14 PS and you have speedbonus.
The enemy target should have less than 50 body armor to onehit him.
Or you could always aim after the face which doesnt require more than 11 PS to onehit him if he has less than 45 head armor.

In my opinion its much easier to play as a balanced build than a pure str build.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Leshma on August 22, 2012, 06:10:50 pm
In my opinion its much easier to play as a balanced build than a pure str build.

No, it's not.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Vex. on August 22, 2012, 06:15:20 pm
No, it's not.
How do you know leshma, you have only played as a fuck high agi build who always goes on the flank to die alone xD
Solo hero right there  :shock:

With a balanced build i have a K/D on 3,7 (21/18 build)
With a str build i have K/D on around 3. (42/3 build)
So yes lesh boy, its much easier to play with the agi.
Str builds require so much more blocking skills and place yourself in the battlefield than a agi build which can just run away from the danger.
If you dont have much ath and do one bad choice, you're dead.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 22, 2012, 06:19:17 pm
At level 30, for anyone who is curious on what losing out on the 250 points will do:

WM: Old-wpf#(remainder)/New-wpf#(remainder)
0: 111(4)/1(0)
1: 116(5)/31(0)
2: 123(3)/60(1)
3: 130(4)/80(2)

4: 138(3)/97(1)
5: 146(5)/111(4)
6: 154(9)/124(6)
7: 163(5)/137(1)

8: 172(0)/148(7)
9: 180(8)/159(9)
10: 189(2)/170(4)
11: 197(9)/180(8)
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Leshma on August 22, 2012, 06:24:14 pm
I've played 36/3 build wearing peasant armor which could survive 3 good hits, up to five hits actually. Hit points are what matters in this game.

If I had armor I could survive even more shit.

Athletics is pretty much useless whenever it's raining.

Btw. everything you listed as disadvantages of strength builds, is true but only in battle mode and only if you're loner. Having bunch of friends with you pretty much eliminates most of these issues.

In siege you need ath to get faster from point A to point B, otherwise it's not really that useful.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Vex. on August 22, 2012, 06:39:32 pm
5 hits in a peasant armor, thats bullshit lesh and you know it.

Damage values
Minimum: 41
Average: 47
Maximum: 53

Thats the damage of a standar 18 str build with 150 wpf against 20 body armor
And with a 36/3 build with 12 IF you have about 95 HP. Then you should be dead in 2 hits. If you survived 5 hits, that must have been against a peasant.
So no, body armor mixed with HP is the most effective.

And you can easily take a shitload of hits if you add iron flesh in ur build...
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 21
Agility: 18
Hit points: 64 (if you add iron flesh)

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 36
Agility: 3
Hit points: 89 (with 9 Iron flesh)

The difference is 25 HP which means you can take 1 extra hit with a str build (if you have over 60 body armor)
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: sF_Guardian on August 22, 2012, 07:00:00 pm
5 hits in a peasant armor, thats bullshit lesh and you know it.

Damage values
Minimum: 41
Average: 47
Maximum: 53

Thats the damage of a standar 18 str build with 150 wpf against 20 body armor
And with a 36/3 build with 12 IF you have about 95 HP. Then you should be dead in 2 hits. If you survived 5 hits, that must have been against a peasant.
So no, body armor mixed with HP is the most effective.

And you can easily take a shitload of hits if you add iron flesh in ur build...
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 21
Agility: 18
Hit points: 64 (if you add iron flesh)

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 36
Agility: 3
Hit points: 89 (with 9 Iron flesh)

The difference is 25 HP which means you can take 1 extra hit with a str build (if you have over 60 body armor)

Theese calculations do not fit with the reality on the battlefield man.
If you use a bit of footwork you will never get that high dmg!
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on August 22, 2012, 08:17:24 pm
No offense to you, but this idea is crap.

Wpf buffs speed AND DAMAGE.

So, if str players had low wpf or none. Their str will be underpowered to the point where and 18-18 does nearly the same damage.

 An alternative solution is that wpf does not improve Damage or reduce it and only effects swing speed. Keep in mind this will still improve high wpf damage due to speed bonus.

2ndly whoever said buff wpf points so you can go to 180+, clearly has not been in crpg long enough. Long enough to remeber when players could and wielded 98 speed weapons at 180+ hitting players faster than the server can relay the animations. Yeah it was a shit show, worse then longsword and katana spammers of today.

That is why there is the hard wpf curve we have today. So, thank the devs for it because it improved gameplay significantly.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Leshma on August 22, 2012, 10:53:12 pm
I'm against 180+ wpf but that's exactly what chadz&co are planning in the future.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Tzar on August 22, 2012, 10:57:09 pm
cRPG could make good use of hybrid builds again imho.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Sagar on August 22, 2012, 11:37:07 pm
NO. Cant believe that someone enjoy playing with agy build, its horrible. Devs shod limit athletics on 5, then game will be much better. Right now its pretty much stupid when you see someone running around like rabbit in medieval battle.

Devs:
- limit athletics on 5
- remove jump
- speed up weapons
- make shields weaker (its ridiculous how many hits shield can take in this game)
- or make shielder taking damage when you hit them with axe, morningstar ...
- and more ... make this mod better
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: sF_Guardian on August 22, 2012, 11:47:01 pm
NO. Cant believe that someone enjoy playing with agy build, its horrible. Devs shod limit athletics on 5, then game will be much better. Right now its pretty much stupid when you see someone running around like rabbit in medieval battle.

Devs:
- limit athletics on 5
- remove jump
- speed up weapons
- make shields weaker (its ridiculous how many hits shield can take in this game)
- or make shielder taking damage when you hit them with axe, morningstar ...
- and more ... make this mod better

- and more ... make this mod better

I loled.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: HUtH on August 23, 2012, 12:00:58 am
Generally it's stupid that you can be super fast, but weak or super strong but slow. That is some stereotypical view of human fitness.
When you're strong and fit, you can hit fast and hard. When you're some thin guy, you hit normal and light. When you're some big guy on steroids, you hit rather fast and hard. And there is also technique that can change things a lot.

I've wanted to write more about how I see agi/str, athl/ps/wpf, but again I get to the same conclusion:

Without STAMINA this shit ain't worth discussion. Balancing anything right now is pointless. You can be agi-whore or no-brain tank and it's good, primitive as fuck, but good.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Sagar on August 23, 2012, 12:16:59 am


I loled.

I loled every day reading suggestions like in this thread.

Making STAMINA, lots of things will come in write place:

- strength builds - hit harder and stamina bar last longer (more strength more stamina)
- agility builds - hit faster and stamina bar last shorter (lover strength lover stamina)
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 23, 2012, 12:17:37 am
It honestly sounds like you really suck fighting Shields, to be blunt.

Making STAMINA, lots of things will come in write place:

- strength builds - hit harder and stamina bar last longer (more strength more stamina)
- agility builds - hit faster and stamina bar last shorter (lover strength lover stamina)
So basically make Agility builds even more useless then now?
Having to land one successful blow is significantly more powerful then having to do it 5 fast times, as the first relies on one mistake by your opponent while the other requires five.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Sagar on August 23, 2012, 12:24:49 am
I don't have any problem fighting against shielder, just telling facts here how its funny that shield can take so many hits, cos they cant. Take the shield and take axe, after two three strikes will break the shield or your hand.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 23, 2012, 12:30:36 am
I don't have any problem fighting against shielder, just telling facts here how its funny that shield can take so many hits, cos they cant. Take the shield and take axe, after two three strikes will break the shield or your hand.

Real shields can withstand much more then two or three strikes, and are belted in two places on the arm, not held by your hand. Your example makes little sense from a balance perspective and zero sense from a realism perspective. There is a reason why shields dominated most warfare in most advanced regions before the invention of dominant firearms.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: HUtH on August 23, 2012, 04:01:52 am

Making STAMINA, lots of things will come in write place:

- strength builds - hit harder and stamina bar last longer (more strength more stamina)
- agility builds - hit faster and stamina bar last shorter (lover strength lover stamina)

It's wrong... And it shouldn't be that simple agi vs str... because what do you mean by agi? Professional gymnasts have great agility, but they are well built too. Triathletes - they have super endurance, but aren't that well built... etc. etc. In WB apart from AGI and STR are also IF, PS/D/T and Athl - these skills can be used differently and better than now.
When you are fit, you hit fast, hard and you have good stamina. But if you're like Conan, you hit very hard, but also you can't fight very long at decent level - big muscles need more oxygen, and lungs and circulatory system just can't deliver it. But wearing heavy armour is actually easier than for thin guy - albeit he has good stamina in light gear... but it's much more complicated, I'd written post in some suggestion thread about stamina system, quite long...

Sagar, for real, have you ever see some martial arts or medieval tournament fight? Like boxing, featherweight - guys can fight for ages, heavyweight - guys just don't know where they are afer few rounds without KO...
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Bobthehero on August 23, 2012, 04:04:37 am
Don't care, already have points in WM, and I am a STR build.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Sagar on August 23, 2012, 09:00:29 am
Real shields can withstand much more then two or three strikes, and are belted in two places on the arm, not held by your hand. Your example makes little sense from a balance perspective and zero sense from a realism perspective. There is a reason why shields dominated most warfare in most advanced regions before the invention of dominant firearms.

Don't try to make a smart here. I'm very well familiar with history of medieval warfare. And yes, the shield was one of the great and the main components of all medieval armies. I don't have anything against shield, I'm talking about shield endurance.
Just saying if you take a big axe, shield can take only few hits (if shield wont brake you arm will, or from shock impact you will not be able to use that arm).  Maul crushthrough is the rare realistic part of this game.


but it's much more complicated, I'd written post in some suggestion thread about stamina system, quite long...

I understand that is much deeper and complicated to make. I just write some quick and simple stamina suggestion.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Christo on August 23, 2012, 09:44:37 am
- strength builds - hit harder and stamina bar last longer (more strength more stamina)
- agility builds - hit faster and stamina bar last shorter (lover strength lover stamina)

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Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Bobthehero on August 23, 2012, 09:54:33 am
Don't try to make a smart here. I'm very well familiar with history of medieval warfare. And yes, the shield was one of the great and the main components of all medieval armies. I don't have anything against shield, I'm talking about shield endurance.
Just saying if you take a big axe, shield can take only few hits (if shield wont brake you arm will, or from shock impact you will not be able to use that arm).  Maul crushthrough is the rare realistic part of this game.

Well
actually
yes
and
no
http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_shields.htm

scroll down and READ IT ALL
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Haboe on August 23, 2012, 10:18:54 am


Making STAMINA, lots of things will come in write place:

- strength builds - hit harder and stamina bar last longer (more strength more stamina)
- agility builds - hit faster and stamina bar last shorter (lover strength lover stamina)

More str more stamina?
So you are saying that this guy (strong):
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Should have a higher stamina then this guy (agi):
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These are extremes ofc, but you get my point, training on agility will increase your endurance (and thus the length of your stamina  bar) more then a guy that trains on strength.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Bobthehero on August 23, 2012, 10:29:50 am
Fairly sure the first guy could swing a sword longer than the 2nd guy.

Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Haboe on August 23, 2012, 10:45:56 am
Fairly sure the first guy cant run 100m without exhausting himself :P
Should split up stamina drain in running and swinging  :D
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: IR_Kuoin on August 23, 2012, 11:28:05 am
Buff agi, save a cow.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Taser on August 23, 2012, 11:41:24 am
Fairly sure the first guy cant run 100m without exhausting himself :P
Should split up stamina drain in running and swinging  :D

You did not just say that about Marcus Pudzianowski..
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Piok on August 23, 2012, 01:52:33 pm
I vote for No.
We need more hybrids not specialist.Instead make wpf gain linear per weaponmaster :idea:
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Haboe on August 23, 2012, 02:02:57 pm
I vote for No.
We need more hybrids not specialist.Instead make wpf gain linear per weaponmaster :idea:

Making wpf gain linear will be worse for hybrids... no one d go hybrid then xD
Atm you can choose between 165 wpf in one, or 150 in one + 80 in an other (just random example)
If wpf gain is linear you can choose between lets say 200, or 100-100. That would make worse hybrids.

This no longer free wpf will be good for hybrids, though forces them to get some extra wm.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Piok on August 23, 2012, 02:41:39 pm
Why should anyone invest into wm you could play without IF,Shil,PD,PT,Rid,Ath so why to force people into investing to wm by force. If it is linear you will gain let say 70 point for wm and it will be viable to invest some point in it. Problem now is that people invest 0 or more than 4 waepmaster in single weapon category because from 0 to 3 you will not notice any difference so everybody invest to IF or other skill viable for them. And if wpf would be linear there will be no ultraextreme agi spammers because they will gain lower wpf in the end. And diffrence between hybrids and orthodox will not be so high.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: EyeBeat on August 23, 2012, 02:53:35 pm
Nerf hybrids or at least buff pure builds.

Hybrids are too powerful at the moment. 

YES YES YES
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Lech on August 23, 2012, 03:53:46 pm
I loled every day reading suggestions like in this thread.

Making STAMINA, lots of things will come in write place:

- strength builds - hit harder and stamina bar last longer (more strength more stamina)
- agility builds - hit faster and stamina bar last shorter (lover strength lover stamina)

Rather str build should have less stamina as they need more oxygen to use their muscles.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Sagar on August 23, 2012, 05:54:06 pm
Its interesting how all imagine strength build like someone from Hollywood/Conan movies look like. Medieval knights doesn't look like that. They have strength and the agility, but they train to be deadly when they carry a medieval armor, which is heavy in most cases.

Here is some training lesions by medieval fight master Hans Talhoffer:
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: sF_Guardian on August 23, 2012, 06:01:50 pm
Its interesting how all imagine strength build like someone from Hollywood/Conan movies look like. Medieval knights doesn't look like that. They have strength and the agility, but they train to be deadly when they carry a medieval armor, which is heavy in most cases.

Here is some training lesions by medieval fight master Hans Talhoffer:

Still the game needs to be balanced, we cant fuck balance for some guys sense of realism...
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Tzar on August 23, 2012, 06:02:36 pm
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Cicero on August 23, 2012, 06:40:38 pm
Reall good idea
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: HUtH on August 23, 2012, 06:42:59 pm
More str more stamina?
So you are saying that this guy (strong):
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That guy end his strongman carriere(multiple champion) and start fighting(for money obviously)...
Look how "great" stamina he has, he's burning from inside, lol:
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 23, 2012, 07:00:46 pm
I'm NA and approve the original post, but you would need to let people get a free respec if you did this, or you'd completely fuck over people who've maxed out their STR, or people who are level 33 and have no WM.

And since they will never allow a free respec for people, I have to say, do not implement this.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Vkvkvk on August 23, 2012, 07:36:43 pm
I loled every day reading suggestions like in this thread.

Making STAMINA, lots of things will come in write place:

- strength builds - hit harder and stamina bar last longer (more strength more stamina)
- agility builds - hit faster and stamina bar last shorter (lover strength lover stamina)


From a realistic point of view, someone strong would imply bigger muscles. Bigger muscles implies more oxygen having to be carried over to all the muscles even when resting, effectively making strong people have much less stamina than smaller and agile people that are focused on flexibility rather than raw strength and muscle size.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Lech on August 23, 2012, 08:09:16 pm

From a realistic point of view, someone strong would imply bigger muscles. Bigger muscles implies more oxygen having to be carried over to all the muscles even when resting, effectively making strong people have much less stamina than smaller and agile people that are focused on flexibility rather than raw strength and muscle size.

Fact that someone is stronger does not mean he hit harder. Bigger muscles are required to lift stuff, but they aren't that important for swinging weapons. For this you need correct muscle memory or something.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Bjord on August 23, 2012, 08:14:07 pm
Technique, in other words, Lech.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 23, 2012, 08:34:03 pm
Correct.  Just look at baseball for example.  You do need some muscle to be able to properly throw a baseball, but some of the fastest pitchers weren't throwing hard because they were super buff, it was because they had the best technique (of being able to transfer the momentum/energy of your body parts moving in unison to the ball). 
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Vkvkvk on August 24, 2012, 03:22:21 am
Fact that someone is stronger does not mean he hit harder. Bigger muscles are required to lift stuff, but they aren't that important for swinging weapons. For this you need correct muscle memory or something.

He was talking about strength though, not sheer technique.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Tzar on August 24, 2012, 10:29:58 pm
Realism aside i think we can all agree that its stupid.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Elindor on August 24, 2012, 10:48:36 pm
Realism aside i think we can all agree that its stupid.

This.

Watching the last 2 pages of this thread unfold was....painful lol.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Dooz on August 24, 2012, 11:21:48 pm
I'd rather see a much higher penalty for having under 100 effective wpf to achieve these goals instead of lowering the amount of wpf we currently get as that'd really hurt hybrid type builds utilizing more than one weapon effectively. So you'd really have to tailor your armor set for the amount of wpf you have otherwise you'd have the huge hits to speed and damage and whatnot, same would hold true for people with 0 points in weaponmaster as they'd only be left with 111 wpf in any given weapon, which unless you're wearing pretty light armor your effective wpf would drop below 100.

For example, with 5wm I'm able to have 119 and 118 wpf for 2h and polearm respectively, which with the medium armor I wear allows for over 100 effective wpf with those values, but if I were to wear just a little heavier I'd be below that mark. If the free points were taken away, you might need 6wm or even more to compensate, which would either be impossible depending on the type of build, or really hamper other areas so much it wouldn't be worth it. That would take a lot of options away, almost forcing a single weapon build for everyone.

So again, the same goal of slowing down no or low weaponmaster builds can be achieved by focusing more on the discrepancy between under and over 100 effective wpf, instead of reducing wm points on the whole. At least I hope so. Or all my "final build" options are out the window.  :lol:
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Tzar on August 26, 2012, 11:14:17 pm
ITS TIME :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:

INJUSTICE :!: :!: :!:
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Lichen on August 26, 2012, 11:44:01 pm
I'd rather see a much higher penalty for having under 100 effective wpf to achieve these goals instead of lowering the amount of wpf we currently get as that'd really hurt hybrid type builds utilizing more than one weapon effectively.
Not really. Instead of the free wpf being given it would simply be incorporated into weaponmaster only. If you're a hybrid you'll be getting weapon master just as is done now.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: HarunYahya on August 27, 2012, 06:23:49 am
No.
There are lots of high level 31+ people without wm , if that gets implemented they'll be forced to respec/retire which is injustice.
If that comes with free of exp loss respec , i agree otherwise , no.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: San on August 27, 2012, 06:46:24 am
I vote for No.
We need more hybrids not specialist.Instead make wpf gain linear per weaponmaster :idea:

I'd argue that the exponential curve should be steeper. There should be more of a difference between 5 and 8 WM for melee than it is now. The difference of effective wpf of the two currently is barely 20 wpf in medium armor. 0-3 WM should be more heavily punished. I swing fast with only a moderate amount in my main weapon, enough for a secondary weapon, and 5WM.

It should be relatively easy to get to 100wpf with a few points in WM even with a steeper curve, but it should be harder than it is now to go over that. WPP given from WM should also see a large increase at higher levels so hybrids don't get gimped and pure builds (incl. archery) will still be just fine.

I think the effective wpf formula should also be checked, since it inherently punishes higher WM users. I believe it should just be a linear reduction.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Leshma on August 27, 2012, 01:01:40 pm
There is a noticeable difference between 180 and 120 wpf, even with heavier armor. I know, because I almost have 180 wpf in 2H on my main. I also have alts with 120 wpf max in one weapon proficiency.

Having more than 180 wpf is just plain wrong and broken, no matter what class you're playing. Even at 175 wpf Katana is broken weapon and it's pretty damn hard to block it.

Allowing higher max wpf just helps people with low ping and flawless connections and considering how small this community is and that only tiny part of it has ping bellow 30, I think that buffing those players while nerfing everyone with higher ping is bad idea (now I have around 45 ping so I'm not in that category but there's at least 50% of players in this community with ping higher than 60).

I would rather buff infantry movement speed. Not to the silly levels like when weight bug happened but somewhere in between.

If they are going to buff WM, better buff hybridization.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Piok on August 27, 2012, 03:45:17 pm
WM is good as it is now. If you want to help hybrids make WM linear not progressive and also make ranged weapon damage depend only on PT,PD and WM affect only accuracy +  speed.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Fartface on August 27, 2012, 04:43:58 pm
So then I can“t play my 39/3 anymore , no dont do this :(
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Leshma on August 27, 2012, 05:57:59 pm
You can keep playing 39/3 but with 1 wpf :P
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Fartface on August 27, 2012, 07:47:36 pm
right now I got 111 wpp , and with my armour reduction I got around 70/80 . still low but if I would be forced to go agi this game would suck so bad for me.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Elindor on August 27, 2012, 07:52:03 pm
...if I would be forced to go agi this game would suck so bad for me.

Well I dont think anyone is saying people are going to have to "go agi"....the implication is that people might need to get SOME agi, instead of literally 0.

Having 10-12 agi or something is not GOING agi.


-----------

On another note - I DO think that when this rework of the wpf curve happens that they should give back not only wpf points, but also allow a reinvestment of your skill points possibly if WM becomes more necessary in the gameplay.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Cup1d on August 27, 2012, 07:54:35 pm
add some penalty to melee wpf for every PS to justify it even more.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Tzar on August 27, 2012, 08:25:44 pm
add some penalty to melee wpf for every PS to justify it even more.

Go back to your medieval shooter we dun like your kind in here.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 27, 2012, 08:27:07 pm
add some penalty to melee wpf for every PS to justify it even more.

not a bad idea, but you'd need to give a free respec to every character if that was the case.  this is similar to how power draw or power throw lower your effective WPF.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Bobthehero on August 27, 2012, 08:44:15 pm
Nope.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Tore on August 27, 2012, 08:46:43 pm
just make vm give more wpp
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: BlueKnight on August 27, 2012, 09:15:25 pm
Its time to remove the free wpf gain from lvl and place the gain in form of wm points.

STR no brainers have had enough fun its time to balance things out.

Wanna be able to 1 hit people an take a gazillion hits you should be swinging your weapon like an old lady.

Yes or no  :?:


Agi builds will deal more dmg than str builds then lol...
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Fartface on August 27, 2012, 09:42:46 pm
9-12 agi is going AGI for me ...
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Tzar on August 27, 2012, 10:43:39 pm
Agi builds will deal more dmg than str builds then lol...

You cant read.....

Agi builds wouldn't get more wpf with my suggestion nothing would change only the fact that retarded build with 0 agi investment wouldn't be given a 117 free wpf by just lvling up.

Also imho i don't think only stacking str should be even viable in the first place.

One final note 14 ps with 0 wpf would still deal more dmg then say 7 ps with 150 wpf.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Bobthehero on August 27, 2012, 11:12:43 pm
As long as I can can get 135 wpf with 3 WM...
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Cup1d on August 28, 2012, 11:57:41 am
Go back to your medieval shooter we dun like your kind in here.

Eh? Silly people still fear to hear the Truth? It's Time!
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: BlueKnight on August 28, 2012, 11:02:49 pm
You cant read.....

Agi builds wouldn't get more wpf with my suggestion nothing would change only the fact that retarded build with 0 agi investment wouldn't be given a 117 free wpf by just lvling up.

Also imho i don't think only stacking str should be even viable in the first place.

One final note 14 ps with 0 wpf would still deal more dmg then say 7 ps with 150 wpf.
u can't read lol

0 wpf sux bro rly, even if you have a lot of PS because enemy is running away from your hit and for example you would hardly catch the enemy with your sideswing of a great maul or other weapon. It would increase the chance of glancing for str build unless str guys went katanas or 1h.... Try skip the fun with a lot of ps and 0 wpf and you will understand what I mean.

BTW game speed is low already so why should low-wpf-guys be even slower? Is it so hard to hit a guy who has just 111wpf and 0 athl?

Ah! and balanced build like 18-18 18-21 or 21-18 are the best anyway. You hit fast and hard and that's the best thing. As 18-18 pole I was     2-3 hitting enemies and as 36-3 pole I am usually 2hitting people... the difference is that I just survive 1 more arrow lol...
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Tzar on August 28, 2012, 11:10:12 pm
Derp derp derp....

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Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Viriathus on August 28, 2012, 11:46:00 pm
Hi, im just a noob to the game, but i have played many other games, and this i can tell; the more substancial changes you make to the game, the less likely for a player to continue enjoying and take it seriously.

As i played more, i wondered how can some one get bored of such a fantastic mod! well i found the awnser now.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Fartface on August 29, 2012, 03:36:52 pm
If this suggesion makes it ,  I will respec to 15/27 with 9 wm 9 ath 5 ps 5 if. that's going to be so mutch more OP than my STR build.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on August 29, 2012, 08:12:17 pm
I dunno, rather than changing WPF points I'd rather change the arc at which WPF becomes effective.

Also if it's buffing Agi we're talking about add a reduction in rain and slope penalty to athletics points.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: rustyspoon on August 29, 2012, 09:05:43 pm
WPF is fine as is and doesn't need to be changed. Generally people who complain about this think that str builds are overpowered, which really shows how much they don't understand the underlying mechanics of this game. They often just quote percentages instead of applying real-world calculations.

When it comes to damage, the two most important things are initial weapon damage and damage type. They are FAR more important than PS. A build with high PS does not do tons more damage than a build with low PS.

As an example, I made a few different builds and punched them into this damage calculator. http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB/ (http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB/) I like to use this calculator for these examples as I find this calculator to be more accurate.

The three builds are 15/21, 18/18 and 39/3. Each build is wearing no armor and is using a polearm that does 34 blunt damage. Their opponent has 70hp and is wearing 60 armor.

All of these attacks ignore speed bonus and held attack bonus. They are also body shots.

The 15/21 build would kill his opponent in 3-6 hits. That is an average of 4.5 hits which rounds to 5.
The 18/18 build would kill his opponent in 4 hits.
The 39/3 build would kill his opponent in 2.5 hits, which rounds to 3.

With a blunt weapon, the build with 5 ps only needs (on average) 2 more hits to kill the opponent then the guy with 13 ps.

Now if this was conducted with a cut weapon, there would be a much larger difference that would heavily favor the 13 ps.

Strength builds do 2 things in this game: they increase your ability to take hits and they make cut weapons more viable for general use.
Agility builds give you more flexibility and make you harder to hit. You can tear people apart with a 6/33 spear build if you know what you're doing.

WPF in this game is for a few specific purposes:

Ranged Accuracy
Increasing swing speed of slow weapons (WPF affects low weapon speed weapons more than high weapon speed weapons)
Hybrids

If you reduce WPF for non-agility builds, you're just placing a penalty that doesn't need to be there that has the potential to limit build diversity even more. At the end of the day, balanced builds are best anyway. This just seems like a pointless change.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Elindor on August 29, 2012, 11:23:59 pm
Interesting results Rusty...

Strength builds do 2 things in this game: they increase your ability to take hits and they make cut weapons more viable for general use.

I do almost wonder though if the HP gain from strength should fall off above some level. 
True strength builds can get to amazing HP levels that Im afraid are neither balanced nor realistic. 

And its somewhere between the increased damage, the only minor decrease in speed, and the rather large increase in HP that it all doesn't come out balanced probably.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Cup1d on August 30, 2012, 05:19:17 pm
Looks like Tzar decide to bitch a little about free wpf only after starting hybrid char. How predictable.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: oprah_winfrey on August 30, 2012, 05:25:57 pm
Looks like Tzar decide to bitch a little about free wpf only after starting hybrid char. How predictable.

Wouldn't a hybrid char. want free wpf?
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: rustyspoon on August 30, 2012, 05:46:41 pm
The devs already said that they are going to flatten the WPF curve, which worries me a bit.

Anyone who remembers when WPF carried over a bit between generations can understand why. Fast weapons, combined with low ping and high WPF can get pretty ridiculous.

Needless to say I've already stacked up on WM in anticipation for the change. That combined with my 20 ping and 100 speed weapon will be quite nasty I'm sure.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Falka on August 30, 2012, 07:00:56 pm
The devs already said that they are going to flatten the WPF curve, which worries me a bit.

There's no need to worry. Planned time of implementation - December 2010  8-)

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Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Turboflex on August 30, 2012, 07:33:33 pm
Interesting results Rusty...

I do almost wonder though if the HP gain from strength should fall off above some level. 
True strength builds can get to amazing HP levels that Im afraid are neither balanced nor realistic. 

And its somewhere between the increased damage, the only minor decrease in speed, and the rather large increase in HP that it all doesn't come out balanced probably.

I agree... The best adjustment they could do with a STR/AGI/WPF balance is to nerf the HP str builds can acquire, maybe put a curve on HP past 60.

This is the biggest imbalance, guys like Sosarian Knight who have like 90 HP, and 80+ armor with looms. That can take like a dozen hits including glances.

Toning down HP stacking would go a long way to flattening out STR/AGI imbalance, which besides from the HP factor aren't too far apart.

Balancing it out with WPF seems like a bad idea. Like Rusty said if you boost WPF so people can achieve 200+ you are boosting the marginal ability of people to be super spammer with 100+ speed weps which does not add anything positive to gameplay. If you nerf WPF in a way that forces people to take more WM, you may be putting a bit of a burden on STR builds, maybe force them to take a bit less IF, but you are really nerfing the hell out of hybrids, who already design their builds with built-in nerfs.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Tzar on August 30, 2012, 07:49:16 pm
Plz stop thinking that i asked for a wpf buff or anything its bullshit all i said was that they should remove the free wpf not buff wpf.....

Its time to remove the free wpf gain from lvl and place the gain in form of wm points.

STR no brainers have had enough fun its time to balance things out.

Wanna be able to 1 hit people an take a gazillion hits you should be swinging your weapon like an old lady.

Agi builds wouldn't get more wpf with my suggestion nothing would change only the fact that retarded build with 0 agi investment wouldn't be given a 117 free wpf by just lvling up.

Also imho i don't think only stacking str should be even viable in the first place.

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Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Cepeshi on August 30, 2012, 08:00:02 pm
I dont get it why people keep bitching about str hp. Come on guys, with agi you get possibility to outmanevuer str crutchers. I played both agi and str oriented builds, each has its own pros and cons, but please, just do not mess up. 15/21 riders would be quite useless, dying to even fly, if they nerfed HP from STR. You really want paperback people? Me not.


Back prebigpatch, there were people with 200+ wpf and loads of str/agi, as you could level up pretty high. There were plated people running like Ussein Bolts with flamberges on their back, mauls in their hands, crossbow ready to wtfpwn you, that was quite battling. Taking one of those behemoths down felt like a friggin achievement.

But anyhow, i do not agree with free wpf removal, i do play WMless char atm  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Turboflex on August 30, 2012, 08:52:54 pm
Plz stop thinking that i asked for a wpf buff or anything its bullshit all i said was that they should remove the free wpf not buff wpf.....

What you said was dumb, that's why people are talking about other stuff.

Remove the leveling WPF and you are nerfing hybrids more than STR builds, STR builds will just go 30-9  or 33-6 and take 2-3 WM and still be fine with 100 WPF but hybrids will be forced to go 18-18 to get minimum 6 WM to be able to get to over 100/100 wpf.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Tzar on August 30, 2012, 08:56:35 pm
What you said was dumb, that's why people are talking about other stuff.

Remove the leveling WPF and you are nerfing hybrids more than STR builds, STR builds will just go 30-9  or 33-6 and take 2-3 WM and still be fine with 100 WPF but hybrids will be forced to go 18-18 to get minimum 6 WM to be able to get to over 100/100 wpf.

Im a hybrid and tbh with my suggestion i would be just fine since the lost wpf from lvling would be placed in my wm points.

6 wm would give me the same wpf that i have now if the wpf buff would take place.
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Turboflex on August 30, 2012, 09:03:00 pm
So what's the point besides forcing str to take 2-3 wm which a lot of str builds might already have? doesn't change much
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: oprah_winfrey on August 30, 2012, 09:06:44 pm
Buffing WM>nerfing str builds/free wpf
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Bobthehero on August 30, 2012, 10:32:35 pm
Buffing WM>nerfing str builds/free wpf

+1, because then I'll be buffed too!
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 30, 2012, 11:04:51 pm
nerf str for make more agi-w...players!YAY we need not 95% fast spamers with long\fast swords!we need 100%!

worst idea ever
Title: Re: Its time.
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 30, 2012, 11:05:25 pm
oops :oops: