Yes nerf Horse Archery more :rolleyes:
Range is overwhelming the game right now... or thats what people say. I personally use a shield and it works sometimes in keeping me alive against range. I notice a few things along the way playing this and here is what I think range should be more like.It's overwhelming because of it's high number. But it's needed against cavs.
Range needs to stop running away constantly: The ability to easily outrun dedicated melee players means that range will always want to run and pew pew again. Given this information, I suggest that after drawing / aiming any range weapon, the bonus from athletics granted to that character is stalled for 5 seconds. WHY you may ask? Aside from BALANCE, it is realistic given the exact breathing required to fire a bow / or xbow / throwing weapon, which usually has to be steady. To make a bit of variance, each point in throwing / archery would lower this cool down by .3 seconds for each point. This would give a mobility edge to bows / thrown compared to xbows.An archer and a thrower NEEDS to move after each shot/throw, else he'll being shot by other people. That's why athletics is important, to quickly move after shooting. If your effective athletic is zero after shooting :
Range on horseback: A penalty needs to be added for reload times for all range weapons (except throwing) on horseback. Being on a horse and firing a range weapon is difficult (I would know I'm Hungarian... Attila the Hun, horse archer empire) and with the animal moving makes it more difficult to properly reload a weapon. I suggest that weapons reload 50% slower then normal on horseback, however power draw skill will reduce this time by 5% each point. Xbow will get no reduction. Secondly, while aiming a ranged weapon on horseback, the ability to control the horse should be reduced 50%, so WHILE YOU ARE AIMING AND FIRING your ability to maneuver is hindered. Please note that this would be a 50% softening of its turning speed, and acceleration and NOT A 50% SPEED REDUCTION. This is also supported by balance, and reality, in the case that telling a horse what to do with only your legs is difficult to do, and not as an effective way to guide a horse as pulling the reigns.
WPF Curve: I imagine this will be addressed soon, but I just wanted to point out that high WM was supposed to be appealing to hybrids, now its not really necessary since you don't need much WM to get 2 skills above 100.
If these changes were implemented, I would like to see the body damage done by range return to its original amount.
Stabilizing arrow damage and making it less random is also a welcome addition. People who get hit by an arrow would know what to expect from additional hits easier, less random arrow glancing, easier for archers to predict their damage output.
It's overwhelming because of it's high number. But it's needed against cavs.
Sadly, i don't think you can balance the game by changing one class and not the other at the moment. Cav and Range are in the same boat.
An archer and a thrower NEEDS to move after each shot/throw, else he'll being shot by other people. That's why athletics is important, to quickly move after shooting. If your effective athletic is zero after shooting :
-archers won't be able to stay with the group.
-all kind of range will "easily" be picked off by cavs.
-range will definitely find it easier to shoot down other range (specially xbow are going to have a good time getting rid of archers, since they can aim for ever and wait for the archer to be as slow as a lv1 peasant who forgot to put one point in athletics... except he's wearing heavier armor, quivers and bow.
I know it's frustrating chasing an archer. That's why there's "dedicated" agi builds to do that. If even a 24/12 melee can catch up to an archer, while dodging effectively, things will be broken.
That seems a bit hard. Take only one of the two nerfs here. 25% speed reduction for archers and 50% longer reload time for xbow will significantly reduce the amount of "spam" indeed, but it's thanks to this spam that they can keep decent damage output. Their damage is already reduced on horseback, if you reduce their shooting speed, it will really not be beneficial to "invest" so much money on an horse.
The 50% softening of acceleration and maneuver is also silly. They definitely need it when chasing or being chased by other cavs. They don't usually use their top speed too, since it really makes them inaccurate, so nerf that if you want.
This is not a balance, this is a great idea to destroy the HX and HA.
I'm sorry, but it's still appealing for hybrids. 100 wpf in archery or throwing is definitely not enough. Especially if, as a melee hybrid, you want to have a medium armor for when you go melee, reducing even more your effective wpf.
Still, i'm expecting some nice changes with the new wpf curve.
All in all, in thoses "BALANCING RANGE without nerfing damage" i only see a "NERFING RANGE without nerfing damage BUT nerfing damage output by sec".
And, it's not even for the sake of balance... At first, i even though it was a troll, but it seems you're serious about this.
And since you don't have enough :
So you ALSO want to nerf the common damage in body shots finally. Thanks for a VERY MISGUIDED title. :evil:
+1. Definitely this. Random damage is a pain for both the victim and the shooter.
You do realize that a couple patches ago damage to the body with ranged weapons was nerfed pretty good. To compensate they made headshots to more damage. This suggestion here would actually give range back more damage, so your wrong. I proposed to give range more damage, but limit its movement capabilities ONLY while using range weapons.
I wonder, why even Native infantry players already stopped whining about «Ommagad overpowered archery» and found many smart ways to counter archers? Do we really have such low quality player base in crpg, that even after countless nerfs this «problem» still appears?
Bad bad suggestions. Really bad.
Drawing speed of HA is already too slow, seriously. If it even takes longer it's impossible to do anything against over cav or foot archers. Horse Archers are already too weak. I wouldn't care about more dmg to the body, accuracy and drawing speed is more important.
If even a 24/12 melee can catch up to an archer, while dodging effectively, things will be broken.No, that would be perfectly fair. What is unfair is that the archer will likely glance with his sidearm once engaged in melee. He should be at a disadvantage in melee versus a dedicated melee player, but he shouldn't just be flat-out boned. This is one of the few things Native did well with regards to melee/ranged balance - archers moved slower and didn't hit as hard in melee, but they were still capable of taking out people in melee if they landed solid blows.
Aside from BALANCE, it is realistic given the exact breathing required to fire a bow / or xbow / throwing weapon, which usually has to be steady.They weren't exactly taking sniper shots at a kilometer distance, you know?
They weren't exactly taking sniper shots at a kilometer distance, you know?
I'm going to say right now, there are some good points in this thread but a whole lot of awful ones.
I hope you understand the way the player base works as min-maxing have-to-have-best-build players. Thus the best way to have people stop being kiting archers is...
THEY WAY TO FIX KITING ARCHERS IS MAKE STRENGTH BUILD ARCHERY BETTER THAN AGI KITING ARCHERY AT KILLIN' THEM DUDES.
Currently, strength archery has 0 zero benefits over agility stacking 6 PD archery. But, what about the damage? surely strength archery does tons more currently?! It doesn't. Shik and I did some archery testing and damage comparisons between his 30/15 10 PD archer and my 18/27 Agi archer. He only does more damage than me at distances less than 20 M, and he only does barely more damage.
I'll say that again. His 10 PD longbow barely out damages my 6 PD longbow at close range, but at 20M + distance our damage is equivalent. You wouldn't know which one of us hit you if we didn't tell you.(click to show/hide)
Okay, so Strength archery is... equivalent damage at pretty much all ranges archers shoot from.
Except he Is slower. He is inaccurate (horribly inaccurate). His bow draws slower. He is worse at everything involving archery compared to my build.
In fact, the ONLY benefit his 10 PD build has is that he has a few more hitpoints from his strength!
Garbage. I would never do an archer over 6 PD under any circumstance under this system. OF COURSE everyone is a kiting agility archer. Seriously guys, looking at the situation all wrong :). The solution is to encourage people to not be kiting awfuls, not by heavily nerfing them, but by making something other than it viable.
I believe the solution to this is a minor nerf in damage for agility archers ( ME. I WANT TO NERF ME.) but keep the super accuracy agility archers have.
The next part is to buff the damage output of strength archers to where they should be in damage. A 10 PD longbow should be an inaccurate but high damaging cannon. Not an inaccurate same-damage-as-me.Fix.(click to show/hide)
*In response to seeing the individual thread made before this got merged back into original topic*Trying to balance for all bows being viable is unrealistic. I agree with shik in that the Long Bow, Rus Bow, Yumi, Horn Bow and Tatar Bow should all have roughly the same viability (depending on builds, of course). This isn't too far off from where we are right now, I think. Likely only minor adjustments would need to be made to fix this as currently the the Horn Bow and the Rus Bow are both widely used, with the Yumi finding frequent use among HAs. Long Bow, I believe, will fix itself when str archery gets fixed. Tatar Bow seems balanced as it is right now. I think people don't use it because anyone that would even consider it, already has enough accuracy and speed from wpf that they can sacrifice what you gain from the Tatar, for the Horn Bow's damage, and not lose effectiveness. Just buff Tatar's damage to being 1 less than the Horn.
Wait, somebody actually read my posts?
Nobody ever replies, so I assume people just skip it and say "tl;dr"
<3
Oh, and this isn't the only thing wrong with the internal balance of archery. The internal bow balance at a glance LOOKS logical, base damage values of cheap/fast firing bows doing less.
The thing is, they actually do even LESS than that. Lower base damage will not compound like higher base damages with % increases.
Power draw is a percent increase to damage, AND has a limiter of percent increase to bow req. +4.
For example, a 1 PD bow will only receive the damage benefits of up to 5 PD. So it actually has a cumulatively less bonus to damage from other bows. To receive the end damage to put it in line with how bad it should be (still would be a cheap shitty bow), a 1 PD bow should have a slightly higher base damage. Just like 2 points more damage on Bow and short bow, 1 more for nomad. That should balance it.
They would still be peasanty weapons, but they shouldn't glance on light-medium armor anymore. They'd still glance on heavy and plate though. At least you could kill someone then.
Have you ever, thought, or contemplated the idea, of getting a shield?
As 2 Hander? :lol:
I`m not a 2H to be forced to slow down myself with a shield so I will never reach that archers.
Besides this it uses 2 much points to get a good shield.
We should just buff STR archers so there is a reason not to be a kiting little bastard. As of now AGI archers do the same damage at range, are more accurate, run faster, so why ever go STR?The disparity is ridiculous, but I don't think simply having STR archers do more damage than what they're doing now, is the best solution. Instead str archers should maintain their current damage, and other archers should lose damage. The last thing anyone should want, is archers able to consistently 2 shot most opponents. Buff those build's damage more and you're going to see that.
Have you ever, thought, or contemplated the idea, of getting a shield?I did, but having a shield makes me way worse at dealing with archers.