cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Spa_geh_tea on August 17, 2012, 12:10:41 am
Title: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on August 17, 2012, 12:10:41 am
I have an excellent example player's build to share that support the claim that 2h hitboxes need to re-adjusted as well as their weapon speeds.
Earthforce has graciously agreed to be my example, he plays on seige if you want to catch the action.
So his build is 30-9. Seemingly high str slow char build right?
Nope wrong.
Earthforce is able to hiltslash and swing faster than the server can pickup and the char can block. It is quite impressive for a str build, but at the same time. This is a broken and frequently abused game mechanic by all 2h users. (They can also swing through walls if animation is started at the proper angle)
I request for the sake of balance and order to the game to reduce the effective hitbox of 2h or its effective swing arc. It currently detracts from the fun of the game when players are able to continuously swing and strike before a player can even consider making a blocking motion. Or, when players are able to swing through scene objects or around friendly players(even though visually they are cutting their teammate).
Thank you for your time.
Thank you Earthforce for providing a character example for 2h exploitation of M&B mechanics.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Earthdforce on August 17, 2012, 12:12:49 am
Woohoo! I'm a haker!
( there IS a D in my name ;) )
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: BDsaysHi on August 17, 2012, 12:19:23 am
I agree with this. :)
(It would help your case if you could show some clips of your example)
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Tydeus on August 17, 2012, 01:05:31 am
Hilt slashing, it's not just 2hers, it's any weapon. What happens is you do enough damage that you can hit extremely early in a release animation and not bounce, thus you hit "before" your opponent. You're not exactly faster, you're just able to utilize an earlier part of your swing due to how much damage you do.
If you are someone who doesn't turn into their swings, you're going to get destroyed by someone doing this.
tldr; It's not just 2h that can abuse this, it's any high str build. You simply have to learn what it looks like, and how to counter it.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Torben on August 17, 2012, 01:10:03 am
the stab being effective longer than the animation lasts is what annoys me the most. fix that too, while your at it : )
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Silveredge on August 17, 2012, 01:25:47 am
Another broken aspect is the speed of long polearms. If you take a Elegant Poleaxe, English Bill, GLA, etc. Watch a full str character swing it, then look at the speed of the weapon. It's amazing how fast they can swing it with no weapon master. If I remember right, this is a deep problem with the game engine, not sure how it would ever get addressed.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Torben on August 17, 2012, 01:44:35 am
Another broken aspect is the speed of long polearms. If you take a Elegant Poleaxe, English Bill, GLA, etc. Watch a full str character swing it, then look at the speed of the weapon. It's amazing how fast they can swing it with no weapon master. If I remember right, this is a deep problem with the game engine, not sure how it would ever get addressed.
same with a flammy though. aaaand, a GLA and elegant arent long and have decent speed on them, not good examples imh. you prob meant poleaxe though anyways
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: cmp on August 17, 2012, 01:58:37 am
Another broken aspect is the speed of long polearms. If you take a Elegant Poleaxe, English Bill, GLA, etc. Watch a full str character swing it, then look at the speed of the weapon. It's amazing how fast they can swing it with no weapon master. If I remember right, this is a deep problem with the game engine, not sure how it would ever get addressed.
I think it's more a problem with physics. If you have a really long pole and a short stick and each one takes the same amount of time to move 180 degrees, the end of the pole is moving MUCH faster than the end of the stick.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: yurah on August 17, 2012, 04:30:17 am
Rustyspoons got a point it's how the person on the receiving end will perceive the swing speed to be faster then the other weapons
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Earthdforce on August 17, 2012, 04:37:10 am
I just remembered a video from cmp...
if you think hilt slashing is bad now, just wait!
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Silveredge on August 17, 2012, 05:34:42 am
I think it's more a problem with physics. If you have a really long pole and a short stick and each one takes the same amount of time to move 180 degrees, the end of the pole is moving MUCH faster than the end of the stick.
I typed that out, but I wanted to try and explain it as it pertains to the game engine. I realize this happens, however I remember there being a discussion that this would be the case.......except the weapons are not supposed to move at the same speed. The speed of a longsword is 98, the speed of a glaive is 90, but the glaive can keep up with the longsword as if it were much faster. A full str build can swing the glaive way faster then a 2h that was 90 speed, using the same amount of wpf with the same build. It was an actual problem with the game.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Vibe on August 17, 2012, 10:42:43 am
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Teeth on August 17, 2012, 10:55:16 am
No clue what the OP exactly means, but 2h have a really kind swing arc. At the arse end of their swings and at horrible angles they won't glance as much as polearm and 1h. Lazy sideswing spamming actually works with 2h.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Vex. on August 17, 2012, 06:24:42 pm
Cuz you can hiltslash means its OP and need nerf? to counter hiltslash, do a leftswing urself after he takes the rightswing and starts his hiltslash. Or simply block^^ (its only shitty melee players who fall for a hiltslash) Nerf 1h aswell then with the leftswing spam. (weak) Nerf polearms with the insta-stab that doesnt bounce if you have over 30P on the weapon. (much more effective than hiltslash)
And the 2h stab is a need to counter cav. the 2h's doesnt have a nice long spear or any kind of pike like polearms do. So if people really want a cav-fest go for it! yes see what happens!
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Vodner on August 17, 2012, 06:35:01 pm
Quote
Earthforce is able to hiltslash and swing faster than the server can pickup and the char can block. It is quite impressive for a str build, but at the same time. This is a broken and frequently abused game mechanic by all 2h users. (They can also swing through walls if animation is started at the proper angle)
There is always time to block, unless the server is malfunctioning, your ping is really high, or you are suffering from packetloss, (unless you are thrust-stunned, in which case it's sometimes possible for the opponent to get a hit in before you recover).
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: LordRichrich on August 18, 2012, 12:16:56 am
And the 2h stab is a need to counter cav. the 2h's doesnt have a nice long spear or any kind of pike like polearms do. So if people really want a cav-fest go for it! yes see what happens!
Wut? 2h's aren't meant to counter cav! They're not dynamite with rock, paper, scissors
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Vodner on August 18, 2012, 07:08:37 am
Wut? 2h's aren't meant to counter cav! They're not dynamite with rock, paper, scissors
Absolutely everything should (soft) counter absolutely everything else, dependent on player skill. Rock paper scissors is a terrible way to balance anything.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Gurnisson on August 18, 2012, 07:11:58 am
Absolutely everything should (soft) counter absolutely everything else, dependent on player skill. Rock paper scissors is a terrible way to balance anything.
QFT
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Kaoklai on August 18, 2012, 07:44:27 am
There seems to be a lot of morons in this game confusion as to what hiltslashing actually is. It's just using footwork to trick your opponent into swinging from the "wrong" side so your swing will land before theirs (if they fall for it). If you don't want to be hiltslashed, read your opponent, or just block twice.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Canary on August 18, 2012, 12:54:52 pm
There seems to be a lot of morons in this game confusion as to what hiltslashing actually is. It's just using footwork to trick your opponent into swinging from the "wrong" side so your swing will land before theirs (if they fall for it). If you don't want to be hiltslashed, read your opponent, or just block twice.
No, it's where they use footwork to get the swing to connect as early in the animation as possible. The fact that it happens sooner than the weapon's speed would normally dictate makes it much more challenging to block.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 18, 2012, 01:02:12 pm
Absolutely everything should (soft) counter absolutely everything else, dependent on player skill. Rock paper scissors is a terrible way to balance anything.
Nerf kiting my old friendchers!
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Tydeus on August 18, 2012, 03:04:33 pm
No, it's where they use footwork to get the swing to connect as early in the animation as possible. The fact that it happens sooner than the weapon's speed would normally dictate makes it much more challenging to block.
Eh, to be fair, you both basically said the same thing. If I'm moving to my left while being on your right and I swing at you with a right swing at the same time you swing at me with a left swing of your own, if you don't properly have your screen positioned directly on me, my swing won't have to go through as many degrees to hit as yours will, thus you should have not used a left swing. Spa ghe tea is pointing out (in a horrible way about an already well known fact) that high PS allows you to hit earlier in your swing arc than you would normally be able to do, while maintaining full damage. So when you pair high damage with hilt slashing, you end up with an even more effective and easier to pull off, hilt slash.
By no means though, are these swings unblockable. Nor do they force you to block twice in a row. You only have to block twice if you made both a footwork mistake and a swing direction mistake. For example, there is no such thing as hilt slashing with two people that are completely stationary, regardless of the swing direction you choose. Edit: It could be possible in theory, but you'd basically have to have a 100 blunt weapon so that you could hit as early as possible in your swing.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Leshma on August 18, 2012, 03:12:32 pm
Seriously, people, read the damn forums!
Hiltslash = will be "fixed" (dunno when) Blocking while kicking = fixed in beta client Chamberkick = already in game
Stop making useless thread, fix this/that, just give them time to implement the changes.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Kaoklai on August 19, 2012, 09:27:42 am
No, it's where they use footwork to get the swing to connect as early in the animation as possible. The fact that it happens sooner than the weapon's speed would normally dictate makes it much more challenging to block.
You just repeated what I said in different words. Tydeus has it right.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Rantrex on August 19, 2012, 12:54:06 pm
Quote
Hiltslash = will be "fixed" (dunno when) Blocking while kicking = fixed in beta client Chamberkick = already in game
I tought devs wanted to decrease number of archers... It seems they want 1v1 Inf. vs Inf. 10 mins. fights then.
If you are loosing against anyone, that's only your fault.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Leshma on August 19, 2012, 01:07:03 pm
Changes will make it more risky than before.
Hiltslash fix won't remove hiltslashing, just make it less efficient (less damage for first half or third of a sword and blunt damage on poleaxes).
No block while kicking means that you won't spam kicks all the time, you'll have to wait for perfect moment.
Chamberkick is awesome. Yesterday, shielder was approaching me, I tried to kick him but he chamberkicked me. That was the first time I saw actual battle chamberkick, not counting fooling around.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Rantrex on August 19, 2012, 09:26:22 pm
What's wrong with kick-spam? When you kick you can't block down side (rarely I can see ppl blocking that, I don't know why). That already makes fighting against fast-thinking enemies (I died from Saint and his flamberge after 3rd fail kick).
And normal kick stun only, when c-kick atm makes a knockdown.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Tydeus on August 19, 2012, 09:44:48 pm
I take it you rarely get around to dueling with a 1her?
You mean that 1h has problem with hitting kicking person? Well, If 1h can't outrange kick with thrust, player can always make step to the right (left not always working).
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Vodner on August 20, 2012, 09:44:37 am
You mean that 1h has problem with hitting kicking person? Well, If 1h can't outrange kick with thrust, player can always make step to the right (left not always working).
The 1h has to predict the kick for a thrust to be useful; there isn't time to reflexively stab somebody who kicks. Even then, several people are reporting that you can simply start your down-block before the kick to block stabs.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Leshma on August 20, 2012, 12:38:29 pm
Even then, several people are reporting that you can simply start your down-block before the kick to block stabs.
That won't be possible anymore, in beta client block, just like chambered attack, are cancelled when kick animation starts.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Phew on August 20, 2012, 09:46:11 pm
My only complaint with hiltslash is that it makes fights look like a squaredance instead of a real swordfight. Real medieval swordfights probably involved two knights facing each other near the maximum reach of their swords. cRPG swordfights involve trying to keep your opponent as close to your hip as possible, off to the side, so that you can land full damage hits without having to wait for the swing animation to connect.
Why on earth should it be a tactical advantage to face away from your opponent while you are swinging at them? This is just silly. All weapons should do minimal damage in the first 20-30% of their swing; physics dictates as such.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Elindor on August 20, 2012, 10:32:05 pm
My only complaint with hiltslash is that it makes fights look like a squaredance instead of a real swordfight. Real medieval swordfights probably involved two knights facing each other near the maximum reach of their swords. cRPG swordfights involve trying to keep your opponent as close to your hip as possible, off to the side, so that you can land full damage hits without having to wait for the swing animation to connect.
Why on earth should it be a tactical advantage to face away from your opponent while you are swinging at them? This is just silly. All weapons should do minimal damage in the first 20-30% of their swing; physics dictates as such.
This.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Smoothrich on August 21, 2012, 07:17:38 am
My only complaint with hiltslash is that it makes fights look like a squaredance instead of a real swordfight. Real medieval swordfights probably involved two knights facing each other near the maximum reach of their swords. cRPG swordfights involve trying to keep your opponent as close to your hip as possible, off to the side, so that you can land full damage hits without having to wait for the swing animation to connect.
Why on earth should it be a tactical advantage to face away from your opponent while you are swinging at them? This is just silly. All weapons should do minimal damage in the first 20-30% of their swing; physics dictates as such.
Real swordfights were people either instantly dying after 1-2 swings from a fatal riposte or two plated dudes punching the shit out of each other while trying to stab someone in the eye socket or armpit with their sidearm since swords (except the katana) just bounce off armor anyways.
This is a videogame and pr0 gamers are going to learn the engine inside and out and do nothing but abuse animations and mechanics to get an advantage. Hilt slashing is a prime example of gaming the game in this fashion, and cmp has shown the concept and coding to deal with it a bit by hilts having a different damage value for hilt swings.
Though I think the primary thing we should take from this thread is to nerf strength builds and make WPF matter more in swing times then animation abuse.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Elindor on August 21, 2012, 09:47:50 pm
...and cmp has shown the concept and coding to deal with it a bit by hilts having a different damage value for hilt swings.
Though I think the primary thing we should take from this thread is to nerf strength builds and make WPF matter more in swing times then animation abuse.
woot cmp
and +1 on the second part Smooth
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Phew on August 21, 2012, 09:59:18 pm
Though I think the primary thing we should take from this thread is to nerf strength builds and make WPF matter more in swing times then animation abuse.
So increase sweet spot size (i.e. allow hiltslashing) only at high Weapon Master/wpf? If so, I like the idea. The problem is right now, strength 2H-ers incur no swing speed penalty for neglecting agi/wpf, they just turn sideways and the weapon hits for full damage before it has even moved an inch through its animation.
I don't like the idea of buffing agility/wpf so much that ninja-types can attack so fast that you can't counter-attack, but restricting hiltslash to high wpf seems like a great compromise to me.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Leshma on August 21, 2012, 11:21:15 pm
Flattening wpf curve to allow 200+ wpf build is horrible idea. Better would be to make it even steeper (especially after 180 wpf mark) but give more points per WM level.
About pole vs 1h vs 2h balance, I agree that is borked atm. Mainly because 2H have reach (poles also have decent reach), damage (poles have slightly higher), speed (1H have higher speed but that's compensated by short reach) and most importantly 2H have wonderful animation which are great on all four directions, where thrust is just too good.
Compared to 2H, poles have 3 1/2 good animations, and 1H have 2 good animations (one good and second are right swing and overhead combined).
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Gurnisson on August 21, 2012, 11:31:51 pm
Flattening wpf curve to allow 200+ wpf build is horrible idea. Better would be to make it even steeper (especially after 180 wpf mark) but give more points per WM level.
About pole vs 1h vs 2h balance, I agree that is borked atm. Mainly because 2H have reach (poles also have decent reach), damage (poles have slightly higher), speed (1H have higher speed but that's compensated by short reach) and most importantly 2H have wonderful animation which are great on all four directions, where thrust is just too good.
Compared to 2H, poles have 3 1/2 good animations, and 1H have 2 good animations (one good and second are right swing and overhead combined).
1H has 4 good animations, 2H has 4, polearm has 3, at least that's what I think. I've played all the classes a long time too, but I guess it's just personal preference. I think the polearm left swing is the worst attacking direction in the game by far and the only one I don't feel very comfortable using a lot of the time.
I can understand that some people don't like the 1H thrust, even though I like it myself. Why people hate on the 1H right swing is beyond me though, I just can't see that. One of my favourite attacking animations in the game. :P
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Leshma on August 21, 2012, 11:43:13 pm
Thrust is rubish atm, sometimes I get it right but next time even though I did the same it glances. Right swing is good at distance only, up close glances a lot.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: rustyspoon on August 21, 2012, 11:49:13 pm
Thrust is rubish atm, sometimes I get it right but next time even though I did the same it glances. Right swing is good at distance only, up close glances a lot.
Honestly I love the new thrust. Old thrust glanced at close distances. New thrust glances at long distances.
Since you can now thrust at your regular fighting distance it is a FANTASTIC follow up attack. I'm constantly double-hitting people by moving to the right with a left swing, and immediately moving left and stabbing. It's sort of like a hilt slash. After that I'll often times keep circling around them and follow up with a right swing. Makes a good 3-hit combo.
I've spammed the shit out of a lot of plate baddies by doing that.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Leshma on August 21, 2012, 11:54:24 pm
It shouldn't glance at all, that's my point. Just like 2h/pole thrust that rarely glance.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Teeth on August 21, 2012, 11:59:51 pm
What is all this talk about hiltslashing? I haven't been hiltslashed a single time in the past three months. So unless my footwork magically changed or the definition of a hiltslash is completely different now, I think the devs succesfully fixed it.
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Visconti on August 22, 2012, 01:31:26 am
People still fall for hiltslashes? Thought everyone would have gotten used to them by now, its not hard to counter them :rolleyes: However, i do agree that full strength builds are incredibly OP
Title: Re: Please reconsider the balance on 2h use
Post by: Leshma on August 22, 2012, 01:31:49 am
I did test thrust a bit on siege bots (people actually) and it's true what rustyspoons said.
Problem is that you need to get almost into enemy model to strike successfully. Otherwise it glances. That means you have zero range on thrust which combined with length of one handed weapons makes it the most risky move in cRPG.
I did test while going full speed, avoiding enemy attack and getting into his face, stabbing. Couldn't manage to stab without speed bonus.
For me this is bullshit and should be fixed in some way.