cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 12, 2012, 03:06:50 pm

Title: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 12, 2012, 03:06:50 pm
Countless fucking times I've ridden up to one of 'em, dodged 3 arrows from the countless my old friendchers camping there, thrown a lance up and hit one of the my old friendchers chest with my throwing lances, he runs off and hides instead of falls and dies  'cuss throwing is up, so, whatever I throw up there don't matter 'cuss I can't 1hit and if damaged they'll just hide for the rest of the round and still be able to shoot me 'cuss of the great cover up there. It's completely fucking retarded that every map has at least one of these things were archers can chill and shoot with litterally no fucking way for lancers to get to them, for me to fight them myself, or for infantry to get up there 'cuss all the archers of a team will stack there and just shoot 'em to death.
Seriously, is it so fucking hard to expect archers to look at their backs once in a while for lancers and do they really need a spot with cover from other ranged AND immunity from cavalry AND height damage advantage on every fucking map?
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Gurnisson on August 12, 2012, 03:13:08 pm
Throws upwards, complains about having to use more than one throw

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Miwiw on August 12, 2012, 03:14:06 pm
Cover is a good thing and needed on any good map. Otherwise its quite unfair for both infantry and archers. You can't expect an Archer to take a 2 slot spear to stop horses.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 12, 2012, 03:19:40 pm
Throws upwards, complains about having to use more than one throw

(click to show/hide)
Has to throw upwards 'cuss getting up on level with the archers is impossible might as well just give them back their unreachable rooftops.

Cover is a good thing and needed on any good map. Otherwise its quite unfair for both infantry and archers. You can't expect an Archer to take a 2 slot spear to stop horses.
There is a difference with some decent cover and letting all archers camp unreachable unhittable spots that they're perfectly capable of shooting from, how the fuck can you consider it right that archers get immunity from all other enemies while still being able to shoot? Also, archers don't need a spear, 9 out of 10 archers can dodge lancers due to insane ath and peasant gear and they can also shoot a horse coming fullspeed at them and due to decent accuracy and facehug range headshot with ease.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Sarpton on August 12, 2012, 03:19:55 pm
I think the deployable anti cav spikes is a great idea.  Always have.   And if to many archers I go to siege or the melee only server.   Or take off most of my gear and "not-quite-leech-but-pretty-much-leech." with my white tunic and practice sword.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Miwiw on August 12, 2012, 03:25:23 pm
.
There is a difference with some decent cover and letting all archers camp unreachable unhittable spots that they're perfectly capable of shooting from, how the fuck can you consider it right that archers get immunity from all other enemies while still being able to shoot? Also, archers don't need a spear, 9 out of 10 archers can dodge lancers due to insane ath and peasant gear and they can also shoot a horse coming fullspeed at them and due to decent accuracy and facehug range headshot with ease.

It's a decent cover and especially to hide from cav. An archer can hardly dodge more than 1 cav in the open. Even if they had 10 ATH (which no one has). An Archer should be able to dodge enemy cav (at least one, or if enemy cav behaves in a stupid way, ie. cannot handle the speed). Doing an headshot on an enemy cav is not that easy, its not a free kill but what do you expect (sure there are many archers playing for 2 years, ofc they are able to do so)? Should a cav get always a free kill when fighting an archer. How fair would that be? (and leave your archer hate out of this please)

If Archers or any other class are hiding in a ruin, they can do it. As cav you either wait for support of infantry, other archers or cav or you dismount and charge in. For that you should of course have a melee weapon or even a shield. A dedicated throwing build of course has problems with many things, especially a horse thrower (who needs some love though, not only due to upkeep).

e: regarding your poll answers. hiding in a ruin is not similar to roofcamping. Theres no needed jumping involved or ladders like in the past. You can simply walk into it without any problem. You only have a problem if you are getting shot or have no melee weapon, but its your own decision if you neither have.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 12, 2012, 03:28:02 pm
Vote options tldr :(. Cba to reed.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Werfried on August 12, 2012, 03:37:37 pm
Ruins are still better then these endless, boring open maps, where two shieldwalls sit on two hills and nothing happens in the first 3 or 4 minutes.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Gravoth_iii on August 12, 2012, 03:37:47 pm
Covers are needed, otherwise cav will be even more OP.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 12, 2012, 03:40:02 pm
It's a decent cover and especially to hide from cav. Decent cover=Unreachable? lol, archers should NOT be unreachable, they can shoot as much as they fucking want, but they should not be able to stand up on their roofs without fucking thinking or watching out and just mindlessly pew pew everyone else 'cuss they're fucking invincible on those roofs, literally, cav can't reach 'em, 100% impossible, they got a severe advantage against all other ranged, and infs can't catch 'em and will be shot to pieces, is that balanced? it's not a decent cover, it's retarded invincibility.
Should a cav get always a free kill when fighting an archer. How fair would that be? (and leave your archer hate out of this please) I don't hate archers, I just hate my old friends who run, the my old friends who teamshot me from a mile away, and the roofcamping bitches. Which sadly, covers pretty much every archer in the mod, and on open ground cav certainly don't get free archer kills, guys like blackbow would headshot anyone who came near, bad players would headshot the full speed horse and then kite onwards, players who don't watch out, at all, or get ganked by 3+ cav, will probably die, and they should die, what you're currently argumenting is that lancers should deal 0 damage to peoples backs, because infs shouldn't be forced into watching out, archers shouldn't be forced to watch out, and cav shouldn't be forced to watch out, at the same time your argument would say that unless the inf is aware he's getting shot at he should be invulnerable to arrows.

If Archers or any other class are hiding in a ruin, they can do it. As cav you either wait for support of infantry were you still can't possibly fight against the archers anyway unless you dismount and therefore stop being cav, and the infantry will not be able to catch the archers, you fucks already got unreachability from inf due to kiting, you don't also fucking deserve cover from other ranged and unreachability from cav without fucking watching out, at all, other archers or cav or you dismount and charge in. For that you should of course have a melee weapon or even a shield. I agree, melee should be the main focus of the mod really, every char should have something spec'd into melee, including archers, they should have ps, then have their kiting taken away, and they should carry a weapon and not just 2-3 stacks of arrows, and then, they got a weapon, so they can watch their fucking back instead of just mindlessly pew pewing from an unreachable spot. A dedicated throwing build of course has problems with many things, especially a horse thrower (who needs some love though, not only due to upkeep).
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 12, 2012, 03:41:21 pm
Covers are needed, otherwise cav will be even more OP.
There is a big difference between a decent, fair, amount of cover, and 100% immunity.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 12, 2012, 03:43:02 pm
lol, Mlekce is the kinda person who'll close his anti archer thread then come over here and 1- my post just 'cuss he is pissed that he got a way higher infamy percentage than me.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Christo on August 12, 2012, 03:48:01 pm
Ruins are still better then these endless, boring open maps, where two shieldwalls sit on two hills and nothing happens in the first 3 or 4 minutes.

Guess what's the gamemode called..

Battle?
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 12, 2012, 03:53:02 pm
lol, Mlekce is the kinda person who'll close his anti archer thread then come over here and 1- my post just 'cuss he is pissed that he got a way higher infamy percentage than me.

Did you see my last post in his thread? (Well I've been having that locking affect on some threads lately... krhm last post in Leshma's locked thread too :D)
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Sumdum Takeda on August 12, 2012, 03:53:41 pm
So, archers should stand in an open field where cav, other archers, and godzilla for all I care can rape them at leisure?  Um, no.  Buildings only deter the hardest counter for archers, cav.  It's not OP, it's rock, paper, scissors, balance.  If there's a building with 100 archers crammed in it and you can't assault (cause you're a useless cav in a city map), you pull a trick out of Nord Assault.  Wait for the flag. GG.

Hey, or you could bring a 1h and get off the damn pony.

Next, well see a guy complaining at length why shields are so OP because they can just walk right up to him and slaughter him in that ruined building.  Again.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Uumdi on August 12, 2012, 04:02:20 pm
Yeah random plains are awful, but I hear you man, we could use some more props in the mod.  My only complaint about the ruins is it breaks my immersion knowing this ruin looks just like the other 3000 ruins I've climbed up over the years.  Archers are fine though.  Just avoid it altogether, or use ranged of your own when advancing.  I know there have been some ridiculous clutches and standoffs in those ruins, but they usually consist of a few shields and polearms on defense too.  The game needs that kind of nonsense sometimes.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 12, 2012, 04:26:12 pm
So, archers should stand in an open field where cav, other archers, and godzilla for all I care can rape them at leisure? There are like a million places they can camp that aren't 100% unaccasible for cav. Um, no.  Buildings only deter the hardest counter for archers, cav. And well, that shouldn't fucking happen, one thing is giving archers an advantage, but letting people camp rooftops and be unreachable is just plane retarded  It's not OP, it's rock, paper, scissors, balance. Dude, mount and blade is not a rock paper scissors game, if you're sufficiently better than your opponent in all other cases than archery vs something else then you'll win, archery is the only thing which if played somewhat noneretardedly will be invincible to every class in game 'cept other ranged players, so, if cRPG is rock, paper, scissors then genius, please fucking tell me how it makes sense that an aware archer noob will often beat an aware pro cav which you stated earlier was the archers natural fucking counter (as in, rocks paper), and now, retard, please explain to me how if cav is archerys counter you should be able to gain full fucking cav immunity, the entire claim that you shits deserve immunity from cavalry is extremely retarded and basically every statement you make is false or hypocritical.  If there's a building with 100 archers crammed in it and you can't assault (cause you're a useless cav in a city map), you pull a trick out of Nord Assault.  Wait for the flag. GG.

Hey, or you could bring a 1h and get off the damn pony. So, let's give arrows one arrow per quiver, you could just bring a 1h and change weapon.

Next, well see a guy complaining at length why shields are so OP because they can just walk right up to him and slaughter him in that ruined building.  Again. Next we'll see a guy complaining that shields don't do shit against archers 'cuss archers can outrun shielders and if there are more than 1 archer they can just gank the shielder and have one guy shoot him from each side.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Sumdum Takeda on August 12, 2012, 04:32:58 pm
lol  Zilch, you're either a troll or a complete noob.  Period.  Archers only outrun you and are invincible if your are a fucking retard with 18+ strength and a 1h/shield spec.  Explain that to me.  Do you need your heavy gauntlets to feel special?  And, "You Archers don't deserve cav immunity because you stand in one spot."  Is that a serious argument?  Get a shield.  Learn to play.  Never die to another archer.  Ever.

Or be a fucking noob and bitch because you can't easy-mode kill archers.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Ganner on August 12, 2012, 04:33:12 pm
Perhaps as a throwing cav leave them alone?  You dont have to try to kill anyone you see.  Learn to prioritize targets better and let your shielder friends go to town on the archers that decided to hide in an enclosed area they cant easily kite away from.  Every situation calls for a different type of troop, and that is one of the few that cav are not called for.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 12, 2012, 05:19:26 pm
And, "You Archers don't deserve cav immunity because you stand in one spot." Is that a serious argument?
Yes it is, but I get your point, from now on, I want 2 spots on every map that are perfectly accessible, and were archers can't shoot at or from, same base argument, but anyway, I'm just gonna label you a retard and ignore you.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Osiris on August 12, 2012, 05:51:38 pm
if they are unreachable how did the archers get there... If you cant go up a ladder without being shot thats your problem leave them for shielders.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Oberyn on August 12, 2012, 06:09:30 pm
As a horse thrower I think your best utility is as a cav hunter, particularly HA's. With the speed bonus change that devs have said is already in the works the class itself will probably become a lot deadlier.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Torost on August 12, 2012, 06:10:16 pm
The mapmakers have edited most maps now so there is very little possiblities to roofcamp, most places where archer get a little elevation are very exposed. For an archer to work effectivly he needs to be able to focus on pewpewing, and not constantly be on guard for backstabbing melee and outoftheblue cav.Let the other ranged and shielder deal with ranged nests.

Tip: Cav that is being chased by other cav, swing by your local archernest and let your persuer get som arrows in the face.
Same goes for infantry, if it gets tough, pull the fight in LOS of rangednest, and stay clear of the enemy.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 12, 2012, 06:21:20 pm
if they are unreachable how did the archers get there...
They're unreachable for cavalry, can't just give archers 100% immunity to one class while still being able to efficiently damage them, it's fucking retarded, and, getting up on those ruins is impossible unless the my old friendchers up there are outnumbered 5:1 or shit like that, and even then they can easily exit the ruin and kite over to some other ruin 'cuss there are like 50 of them in every fucking map.
For an archer to work effectivly he needs to be able to focus on pewpewing, and not constantly be on guard for backstabbing melee and outoftheblue cav.Let the other ranged and shielder deal with ranged nests.
Ok, and for a 2h hero to be able to work effectivly he needs to be able to focus on fighting, and not constantly dodge arrows and be on guard for backstabbing melee and outoftheblue cav.
And for a cav to be able to work effectivly he needs to be able to focus on backstabbing not dodging arrows.
You can watch out for cav while you're reloading your bow, aim once you're done, then shoot, then watch out, then shoot.
As a horse thrower I think your best utility is as a cav hunter, particularly HA's. With the speed bonus change that devs have said is already in the works the class itself will probably become a lot deadlier.
The reason I enjoy being a horse thrower is that there ain't nothing I can't fight, except for retards with great cover on unreachable ruins which are fucking retarded.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Oberyn on August 12, 2012, 06:24:07 pm
Depends what weapons you're taking. If you're talking about throwing lances, without the speed bonus, using them against infantry seems a waste. Never played as cav thrower so it's mostly out of experience from facing you and the few other cav throwers that exist.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: XyNox on August 12, 2012, 06:30:03 pm
Im a little confused right now, am I seriously reading a "nerf cover" thread right now ?
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Miwiw on August 12, 2012, 06:32:28 pm
It's actually just another "nerf ranged" thread, though this time it is a range being on horse that complains.  :lol:
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: HardRice on August 12, 2012, 06:33:53 pm
Holy fucking god, Zilsch PLEASE say "because" instead of this 'cuss shit you fucking invented.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: duurrr on August 12, 2012, 06:33:57 pm
what about just fucking nerfing as a whole range already?

nerf  range, add more ruins also, i love terrain, you can 10v1 if you use the terrain well and theres no range in the 10
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Gawin on August 12, 2012, 06:58:29 pm
TLDR... btw this cav guy sounds like another one of those spawn killers... or late spawn killers. hes just jealous that he has a tiny epeen
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Turkhammer on August 12, 2012, 07:01:04 pm
There is a big difference between a decent, fair, amount of cover, and 100% immunity.

I get hit plenty up on walls from throwers on the ground.  Watchu talkin about Willis?
PS your poll is BS.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Slamz on August 12, 2012, 07:58:06 pm
You should be using heavy throwing axes, not throwing lances, especially if you're throwing at archers a lot.

Having a hard time dredging up sympathy after you said you're a lancer, which are typically the top scoring killers.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Osiris on August 12, 2012, 07:59:12 pm
basically he is butt hurt that he cant ride everyone down on every spot of every map
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Kajia on August 12, 2012, 08:25:09 pm
wow, zlisch, your OP is so not biased, not to speak of the poll, seriously ...

and i think my answer is simple: you're not expected to kill everyone by yourself - just wait for your teams shielders and inf and inf throwers. i've never seen one of these ruin buildings with ONLY archers which could not be taken on by inf. if 'archers' still win in equal distribution, it's not the fault of that cute building, but someones bad decisions and/or bad strategy (mainly of your team).

calm down, you're exaggerating. also rage is bad for your liver.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 12, 2012, 09:24:22 pm
You should be using heavy throwing axes, not throwing lances, especially if you're throwing at archers a lot.
Impossible to use from horseback due to flight arch.
Having a hard time dredging up sympathy after you said you're a lancer, which are typically the top scoring killers.
I am not a lancer, well sorta, maybe, I'm a THROWING lancer from horseback.
and i think my answer is simple: you're not expected to kill everyone by yourself - Well, ofc, that's impossible seeing as I only got 4 ammo, but eh, I don't mind archers having an edge over me, I mind archers being invincible and unreachable. just wait for your teams shielders and inf and inf throwers. It's fucking retarded that you think some enemies should be 100% unkillable by other enemies of the same level.
Depends what weapons you're taking. If you're talking about throwing lances, without the speed bonus, using them against infantry seems a waste. Never played as cav thrower so it's mostly out of experience from facing you and the few other cav throwers that exist.  Well, against infs, or archers, or other cavalry without a negative speed bonus I need two shots, always, shooting cav charging straight at me requires 1 lance mostly providing I hit their chest.
TLDR... btw this cav guy sounds like another one of those spawn killers... or late spawn killers. This Gawin guy sounds like a retard to dumb to at least read the initial post and realize I am a horsethrower, and that late spawn killing/afk killing is pretty impossible with a pure horsethrowing build unless you're willing to waste an insane amount of time and ammo and you'll probably still be outspeeded by a GK on a courser.
Im a little confused right now, am I seriously reading a "nerf cover" thread right now ? No, this is more of a don't add a bunch of uncav-reachable buildings to every fucking map were 10+ archers are gonna camp and just chill and shoot with no actual thought to it and in the rare event someone manages to get a hit on them they'll just go inside and hide for the rest of the round thread.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Zanze on August 12, 2012, 09:32:22 pm
Whining about archers again? Just give it up man, they are part of the game. Deal with it.

PS, axes aren't impossible to use on horseback, just different. On my jav-cav char I easily made a ton of shots and I see Diggles regularly hitting people with them from horseback.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 12, 2012, 10:59:37 pm
PS, axes aren't impossible to use on horseback, just different. On my jav-cav char I easily made a ton of shots and I see Diggles regularly hitting people with them from horseback.
Eh, well yeah, not exactly impossible, I just have a hard time adjusting to that particular arch as I have to aim and time my throws very different, only throwing weapon I'm really used to and know in and out is the throwing lance, other jav-style ones are also somewhat usable by me, but axes, no way in hell, not from horseback.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Jacko on August 12, 2012, 11:54:16 pm
This is ruining the maps.
Title: Re: Really fucking tired of those "ruin" buildings in every fucking map
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 13, 2012, 01:07:29 am
This is ruining the maps.
So, you're gonna remove dem shitmaps?
BTW: It all worked out, I'm back to being the king of assholes, 'cuss fuck Mlekce.