cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: clown1231 on July 29, 2012, 01:55:38 am

Title: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: clown1231 on July 29, 2012, 01:55:38 am
Hey, Clown1231 here.

I was wondering, is a hoplite style build still viable? Of course, without spin it would be purely a support role.

Also, I'd like to know what a good build would be. I'll be looking to use a 1hander as well, since I have a +2 Langes Messer that I'll likely loom a third time when I hit 31.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Bjord on July 29, 2012, 02:01:34 am
Quote from: clown1231 on July 29, 2012, 01:55:38 am
Hey, Clown1231 here.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Leshma on July 29, 2012, 02:12:55 am
If you have enough ATH, you can duel some (bad) players. With less than 5 ATH you'll have to play as support.

Kinda gimped tbh, but can be fun at times.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: San on July 29, 2012, 02:17:17 am
Still decent for anticav and support. Sometimes cav can dodge in situations where you would've easily stopped them with the old turn, though.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Zanze on July 29, 2012, 05:02:52 am
Extremely viable, but definitely the hardest class to play. From my experience, with a great shielder you can 2v5+ and come out on top easily. I've done it back to back with Diggles many times. I haven't fought 5+ with non-shielders and come out on top, but I've done 2v4's with Sosarian and come out with both of us not taking a single hit so I'm sure it is possible. You are EXTREMELY dependent on your teammates.

Now, that was all about team fights. You WILL NOT be a duelist. If you begin dueling someone, you WILL lose. When fighting most people, I rely on a maximum of three free hits I can get off out of trickery. If they are still alive after ~3 hits, you NEED to put the shield on your back. They won't fall to your jump stab or spin stab antics after that unless they are as smart as a broken lamppost. For general situations, I HIGHLY recommend the light lance. It is the perfect mixture of length, speed, and damage for a hoplites weapon. However, there are a few specialized hoplite spears.

Light Lance: Again, the general jack of all trades. Have this as your default.
Ashwood Pike: Close quarters support, maximize damage at the cost of some length.
War Spear: When you simply can't find a teammate to stick with and keep running into duelists.
Lance: When you know your shield will not break and you will be playing mainly support. Do not duel with it, it is too slow. You get a little extra length over the light lance with the same damage as the ashwood.
Battle Fork: The ultimate close quarters spear. Will not rear horses, will not support anyone. WILL kill people if you hit.
Pitch Fork / Fauchard: Cost effective horse killers. Nothing more. Infantry laugh at your attempts to hurt them and you are not a dependable support to your teammates.
Iron Staff: Only listing this to prevent Xeen from yelling at me for not mentioning. Has Knockdown, does ok damage. No length. I recommended against usage.
Bamboo Spear: Ultimate support weapon. Does ok damage at ok speed. Godlike length. Do not duel with it without putting the shield on your back, way too long.
Double-Sided Lance: For Oohilac, high damage and a good speed. Extremely short. Do not use to support teammates, pretend its a shorter cooler looking battle fork and go to town.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: San on July 29, 2012, 06:33:52 am
^ Nice post. From the looks of it, there are a variety of weapons to choose from. I did not know of some quirks like the iron staff.

Whether you want to anti-cav, anti-inf, or some mix of the two, there are enough options there. Sheathable polearms usable with shield go up to 172 length with the fauchard. Pure polearm hoplites as well as 1h/spear users are both extremely competent in battle, being able to play as all around defensive support (cav,inf,ranged) while having options to remain viable against ranged and 1v1s.

I think the strength hoplite style wasn't really affected too much with the polestagger removal and turn radius nerf. I can't really say for the really high wpf/agi users, however.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Zanze on July 29, 2012, 06:46:24 am
Turn radius nerf is a BUFF to the hoplite class. You can now actively dodge attacks and get free hits.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Uumdi on July 29, 2012, 07:14:51 am
Yeah hoplite is still awesome support and anti-cav.  I recommend a sidearm, but you can put the shield away and use a spear just fine.  Zanze laid it out really well. 

Bamboo is excellent, cheap, best length for support.  I'd argue that the Ashwood Pike is the best hoplite weapon available, because 30p and 166 length is phenominal.  People forget its 93 base speed, so 94 heirloomed.  When you use a spear and shield, you get a really awesome reach bonus, so you're gonna outrange any other support player who isn't a longspear/pikeman still such as a swiss halberd or english bill.

Fork and Double-sided Lance give you style points and would work well in close quarters.  Then again, so do 1hers with 4 directions.

Its a ton of fun though, give it a shot.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: To Kill A Dead Horse on July 29, 2012, 07:24:36 am
throwing lance is the best
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Digglez on July 29, 2012, 08:12:10 am
PROTIP: dont thrust into shields or blocks. biggest mistake most hoplites make.  unless you have multi attackers ganging on an individual and are trying to prevent them from firing off and attack at all.  Make sure to stagger your attacks to land at different time from your teammates.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Joseph Porta on July 29, 2012, 02:52:16 pm
Quote from: Digglez on July 29, 2012, 08:12:10 am
PROTIP: dont thrust into shields or blocks. biggest mistake most hoplites make.  unless you have multi attackers ganging on an individual and are trying to prevent them from firing off and attack at all.  Make sure to stagger your attacks to land at different time from your teammates.

Quite a usefull tip! Time to try it out!
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: callahan9119 on July 29, 2012, 07:19:21 pm
Shortened spear is pretty good too, I saw some guy rocking that thing.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: clown1231 on July 30, 2012, 03:15:29 am
Thanks everyone, you've been quite a help, especially Zanze's post on the different polearm strengths/weaknesses. Of course, I'll still be testing it on a Skip the Fun character. In 3 days I'll be testing it out. In the meantime, would anyone like to suggest a decent build?

Edit: Whoops, forgot to check the guides section, I'll read that now, it should give me any more information that I need.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: callahan9119 on July 30, 2012, 03:35:55 am
Quote from: clown1231 on July 30, 2012, 03:15:29 am
Thanks everyone, you've been quite a help, especially Zanze's post on the different polearm strengths/weaknesses. Of course, I'll still be testing it on a Skip the Fun character. In 3 days I'll be testing it out. In the meantime, would anyone like to suggest a decent build?

Edit: Whoops, forgot to check the guides section, I'll read that now, it should give me any more information that I need.

(click to show/hide)

Maybe this? It all comes down to what you want...fast, hard hitting (as much as a hoplite can) or balanced. You could as an alternative go 5 ironflesh, 6 weapon master and dual spec pole and 1 hander (for close quarters/dueling) or pole and throwing.

Do what you think is most fun.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Laufknoten on July 30, 2012, 04:05:18 am
1 vs 1 as Hoplite is possible and not only against mentally retarded players. With a short lance and enough athletics you can do pretty well in 1 vs 1 because people underestimate your range, speed and damage.
Currently I'm Lancer/Hoplite hybrid and on siege I can rack up a good amount of kills if I do well. I use a double sided lance and a crappy plain round shield and of course light armor.
If a crappy player like me can top Eu2 with no if, only 5 ps and crappy equipment (except the double sided lance, it's a great weapon for hoplites) against all those str and heavy armor noobs these days...yes, then I would say Hoplite is indeed viable. And personally I don't understand why there are so few of them... 
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Turkhammer on July 30, 2012, 06:14:46 am
What shield is preferable for Hopilite?
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Digglez on July 30, 2012, 07:24:50 am
Elite cav + 6 shield skill is best from my experience.  U need something relatively fast so you dont get spammed

Heavy round or regular round if ranged becomes a very big problem.  Huscarl if there is some reason to hold a chokepoint or I want to be a distraction
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: callahan9119 on July 30, 2012, 07:42:16 am
Quote from: Digglez on July 30, 2012, 07:24:50 am
Elite cav + 6 shield skill is best from my experience.  U need something relatively fast so you dont get spammed

Heavy round or regular round if ranged becomes a very big problem.  Huscarl if there is some reason to hold a chokepoint or I want to be a distraction

Elite cav is best if you want a round shield, the knightly shields with 100 speed are superior.

If by meaning hoplite as a build and not as a quixotic idea.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Doppel on July 30, 2012, 10:39:42 am
which build would you recommend?
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Zanze on July 30, 2012, 07:05:54 pm
Elite Cav, it allows you to feint. Yes, feinting somehow works when you have only one direction you can possibly use...

18/18 build is very nice, but you can do 15/21 for more support based and 21/15 for more I'm gonna kill shit.Though, without 6 shield skill the elite cav feels a lot more fragile then with.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Phew on July 30, 2012, 07:26:27 pm
With polestagger, I could see the role of hoplites (staggering people for teammates to get free kills). Without polestagger, I guess their niche is an anti-cavalry that is immune to archers? You could also "trick" cav with a sheathable spear that you pull out at the last moment.

For any other role, another class does your job better. A thrower, for instance, is better at close melee support, thanks to shieldbreaking+greater range+more damage. Throwers are often better at anti-cav also.

I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've been killed by a hoplite in 1v1 while they had their shield equipped, and I'm not even very good at this game. The only hoplites I fear are the ones with a War Spear that put away their shield in a 1v1.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Turkhammer on July 30, 2012, 07:47:14 pm
I plan a hoplite (notice only one i  :wink:) 15/21 with 7 shield.  I'm level 26 presently.  1v1 is next to impossible with the shield but I'm interested in the support role anyway.  I often get kills in the melee or stun/distract so team mates get kills.  It'll be a hybrid with 146 wpp in 1h and 100wpp in polearms.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Zerran on July 30, 2012, 07:52:10 pm
Quote from: Phew on July 30, 2012, 07:26:27 pm
With polestagger, I could see the role of hoplites (staggering people for teammates to get free kills). Without polestagger, I guess their niche is an anti-cavalry that is immune to archers? You could also "trick" cav with a sheathable spear that you pull out at the last moment.

For any other role, another class does your job better. A thrower, for instance, is better at close melee support, thanks to shieldbreaking+greater range+more damage. Throwers are often better at anti-cav also.

I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've been killed by a hoplite in 1v1 while they had their shield equipped, and I'm not even very good at this game. The only hoplites I fear are the ones with a War Spear that put away their shield in a 1v1.

Even without the special polestagger, all melee weapons stagger opponents for a brief time and break blocks (assuming the wrong block was held or they were hit in the back).

Essentially hoplites are a shorter range (unless using bamboo spear mind you), lower damage version of Pike/Longspears with the ability to block multiple incoming attacks and ward off archers. Still a rather underpowered class unless in the hands of someone very good with it, but certainly not without its uses.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Turkhammer on July 30, 2012, 07:52:38 pm
What do the HP on the shield refer to?  Is it the damage it can take before breaking?  The Brown Lion Heater has 381 HP and 96 spd while the Elite Cavalry has 250 HP and 100 spd.  It seems the extra 4 spd is not worth giving up the 131 HP.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Zerran on July 30, 2012, 07:56:01 pm
It's not just about HP, shields also have armor. The brown lion shield has 8 armor while Elite Cav has 21. That has a big impact on what the shield is useful for.

The Elite Cav is also lighter weight, which means it doesn't slow the user down as much, however it's easier to crush through it.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Phew on July 30, 2012, 08:02:44 pm
Shield width is the most important stat, as that affects your ability to block oblique attacks/arrows. The Elite Cavalry Shield is popular because it has good width (32) and speed, enough armor to stop most bolts, and it's fast and has a nice texture. The Heavy Round Shield adds more durability and coverage, at the expense of some speed, but it's also very popular. The Kite/Heater shields require you to face more directly at your enemy to block their attacks, so that's why round shields are more popular.

The shield speed stat mostly affects your ability to feint (block in the middle of an attack), which is important for 1h, but probably less so for hoplites.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Turkhammer on July 30, 2012, 08:09:37 pm
Very helpful info on the shields.  Thanks for that.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Sarpton on July 31, 2012, 12:41:27 am
Elite cav shield is my personal favorite shield.  I find with 5 shield it last long enough but you really don't want to go lower.  The jump in durability from 4-5 is very noticeable.   Plus it wont slow you down as much and with a hoplite your already at a disadvantage on that with the long weapon.  Any edge you can get with your movement speed is nothing but a bonus.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Zanze on July 31, 2012, 02:45:22 am
I haven't experimented too much with other shields, but think of it this way.

+0 Heavy Round is inoperable.
+0 Elite Cav is great.

I don't know the sweet spot of shield speed, but I can feint and pull some trickery with the elite cav that I cannot do with the heavy round. As a support class you don't necessarily need trickery, but it is nice to be able to 1v1 people as a hoplite for the added lols.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: oohillac on July 31, 2012, 03:01:37 am
Hopliting is fun BUT:

speaking as a 4+ generation hoplite (pre- and post-turnspeednerf), I have to say, if you have smart teammates, going for a pokey Longspear without a shield is MUCH more efficient and effective.  If you want just kills, wins, and hate, Longspear is a good choice, but if you want fun, hoplite is still "viable."

tl dr  everything is viable if you enjoy it.

avatar pic related!
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Macropus on July 31, 2012, 12:34:07 pm
I have average k/d = 1/1 on EU 3 being 27|12 hoplite (with another builds my k/d is even worse), so I think hoplites are not as bad at dueling as most people think.
And I dunno why, but killing people with spear thrust attack brings 2x more fun than any other way of killing.  :D
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: dodnet on July 31, 2012, 01:15:14 pm
Quote from: Laufknoten on July 30, 2012, 04:05:18 am
yes, then I would say Hoplite is indeed viable. And personally I don't understand why there are so few of them...

 I wouldn't say there are only few, there are plentry of hoplites around...
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: gazda on July 31, 2012, 02:18:39 pm
in my experiance, hoplites are very fun and viable class to play in group, but when you are 1v1 it gets quite frustrating
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Phew on July 31, 2012, 02:49:27 pm
Quote from: Zanze on July 31, 2012, 02:45:22 am
I haven't experimented too much with other shields, but think of it this way.

+0 Heavy Round is inoperable.
+0 Elite Cav is great.

I don't know the sweet spot of shield speed, but I can feint and pull some trickery with the elite cav that I cannot do with the heavy round. As a support class you don't necessarily need trickery, but it is nice to be able to 1v1 people as a hoplite for the added lols.

At +3 and with 6 or greater shield skill, the heavy round starts to behave like the fast shields when it comes to feinting. Huscarl and slower are just too slow for any 1v1 "trickery". I would kill for a round shield with stats halfway between the elite cav and the heavy round; that would truly be the "sweet spot".

I do think Elite Cav is great for hoplites though, since they don't need as much coverage or durability, and the lower weight helps with their poor mobility. Plus, Elite Cav+Katafraktoi Armor+Barbutte+Ashwood Pike just looks like a badass Roman centurion; I've seen several Hoplites with that setup.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: oohillac on August 01, 2012, 06:17:20 am
If you really want to hoplite and don't have a clan/friend to support you, I would strongly suggest the Double Sided Lance.  It hits incredibly hard, and can be efficiently used in close-quarters combat with shield still equipped.  The Ashwood is very clunky in close combat, but the DSL has extreme trouble against cavalry (tip: stand very still and stab the nose of the horse).  Know your length.

Step forward and stab, turn and backstep out of their attack (optionally blocking as you do this), then step back in for another stab.

Eventually you will get the hang of it, but against patient/smart players, 1v1s as a hoplite (= shield still out) leave you are at a severe disadvantage.

My extra advice:

Heavy strength works best.  If your shield breaks, think of it as a damage increase.

Wear heavy armour, use a Round Shield or Huscarl.  Take lots of Ironflesh.  More room for errors/glances.

AIM FOR THE FACE

Builds I enjoy, from a private Fallen hoplite guide:
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: callahan9119 on August 03, 2012, 03:08:48 am
I'm trying a hybrid type hoplite atm, pole and one handed, unsure about my wpf split though.
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: Sultan Eren on August 03, 2012, 03:12:57 am
Quote from: Leshma on July 29, 2012, 02:12:55 am
If you have enough ATH, you can duel some (bad) players. With less than 5 ATH you'll have to play as support.

Kinda gimped tbh, but can be fun at times.

Leshma, this is bullshit.

Role:Main
Generation:16
Type:Regular
Level:32
Experience:33,313,213
Level up in:4,019,064
Next level:37,332,277
Kills/Deaths:3841/1526, 2.5:1
Title: Re: Are Hoplites Still Viable?
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on August 03, 2012, 04:26:24 am
Quote from: Sultan Eren on August 03, 2012, 03:12:57 am
Leshma, this is bullshit.

Role:Main
Generation:16
Type:Regular
Level:32
Experience:33,313,213
Level up in:4,019,064
Next level:37,332,277
Kills/Deaths:3841/1526, 2.5:1

I suppose it really comes down to foot work, positioning and knowing when to toss the shield on your back, like any shielder.

I always hated going 1v1 with a shield, much prefered to throw it on my back swash some buckle.