cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Leshma on July 26, 2012, 11:23:58 pm
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2H - currently overpowered. Main reason for that is long stab and the fact that it got nerfed the least with turn attack nerf.
Polearms - four directional are still good, although a shadow of what they were before. Two directional are very hard to use.
1H - was nerfed hardest by turn attack nerf, stab is way too risky atm. Overhead as well. So there are basically two decent attack, one which is still epic (left swing) and the other situational attack (right swing). Combined with old issues (low reach) and cut one handed weapons being weak against armored folks with lot of HP, I must say this class is the worst melee class atm.
Many say nerf 2H. I say nope. Why not?
Because greatswords are probably one of the rare weapons which can be used for relatively fast disposal of enemy player. Other weapons take too long and cRPG feels like tanks simulator atm.
To put it simply, buff other weapons.
2H - slight buff to shorter swords (both swings and thrust), buff to 2H axes
Polearms - buff short and those two directional weapons of medium length. Leave longest like they are atm. Maybe slight buff to poleaxes. Buff to pierce/blunt four directional weapons. Shorter two directional weapons which can't be used with a shield should become usable with a shield. Spears that can be used with a shield should either get overhead animation or more damage.
1H - buff to all swords. Balanced swords 3 points in swings and 2 point in thrust. Piercing swords 3 points in swings. Cutting swords 2 points in swing and 2 points in thrust. Slight buff to low tier hammers, slightly stronger buff to low tier picks. Axes should recieve same buff as cutting swords.
This will make non greatsword weapons a lot deadlier, people won't be able to take 5-10 hits before they get lucky chamber and one hit kill you. Some say that one handers should stay underpowered because they are usable with a shield but I think that we're at the point where most players can manually block better than they can use shields. Having a shield isn't an advantage in melee fights anymore.
This is my opinion, I would like to hear yours?
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get rid of 2h stab animation, replace it with polearm mode stab
increase speed on 1-2 direction polearms
make rotation penalty scale to weapon length, shorter weapons being able to turn the most
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Would you plz shatup all rdy....
1h is fine pole is fine 2h is fine.. Im sure the database says the same when it comes to kills made by each weapon class..
If they should fix something is should be archery... cRPG needs a risk vs reward balance team no class should be able to deal so much dmg without having to get near the action.
Having to have full looms or high lvl an high repair chance on bodkins don't make it balanced... everyone have tons of gold an +6/10 fully loomed items by now..
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Would you plz shatup all rdy....
1h is fine pole is fine 2h is fine.. Im sure the database says the same when it comes to kills made by each weapon class..
If they should fix something is should be archery... cRPG needs a risk vs reward balance team no class should be able to deal so much dmg without having to get near the action.
Having to have full looms or high lvl an high repair chance on bodkins don't make it balanced... everyone have tons of gold an +6/10 fully loomed items by now..
Go and play Native then you see what op is
2H - currently overpowered. Main reason for that is long stab and the fact that it got nerfed the least with turn attack nerf.
Polearms - four directional are still good, although a shadow of what they were before. Two directional are very hard to use.
1H - was nerfed hardest by turn attack nerf, stab is way too risky atm. Overhead as well. So there are basically two decent attack, one which is still epic (left swing) and the other situational attack (right swing). Combined with old issues (low reach) and cut one handed weapons being weak against armored folks with lot of HP, I must say this class is the worst melee class atm.
Many say nerf 2H. I say nope. Why not?
Because greatswords are probably one of the rare weapons which can be used for relatively fast disposal of enemy player. Other weapons take too long and cRPG feels like tanks simulator atm.
To put it simply, buff other weapons.
2H - slight buff to shorter swords (both swings and thrust), buff to 2H axes
Polearms - buff short and those two directional weapons of medium length. Leave longest like they are atm. Maybe slight buff to poleaxes. Buff to pierce/blunt four directional weapons. Shorter two directional weapons which can't be used with a shield should become usable with a shield. Spears that can be used with a shield should either get overhead animation or more damage.
1H - buff to all swords. Balanced swords 3 points in swings and 2 point in thrust. Piercing swords 3 points in swings. Cutting swords 2 points in swing and 2 points in thrust. Slight buff to low tier hammers, slightly stronger buff to low tier picks. Axes should recieve same buff as cutting swords.
This will make non greatsword weapons a lot deadlier, people won't be able to take 5-10 hits before they get lucky chamber and one hit kill you. Some say that one handers should stay underpowered because they are usable with a shield but I think that we're at the point where most players can manually block better than they can use shields. Having a shield isn't an advantage in melee fights anymore.
This is my opinion, I would like to hear yours?
I like your ideas but the problem is devs won't buff the items
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All polearms are apparently getting new stats anywa to balance the shaft only doing some blunt damage, so dunno if it needs tweaking atm.
1 hand/shield should get some kind of increased skill based element to be able to defend themselves effectively. I think the damage is good for how you can block all directions at once, and the range isn't so short when you look at animation lengths. Increase risk and then maybe tweak damage. Maybe make it so you have to aim the centre of the shield at the blow to prevent it breaking or to only make it reduce a % of the players damage (like some crushthrough damage on the player if you don't aim the shield well). For the lack of risk associated with a shielder the damage is already very good.
I don't think 2 hand is necessarily OP, but I'm not sure
Also bonus random request: fix bugs on horse hitbox, so shields don't block attacks even when a horse jumps over you and you hit the underneath the horse
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1 hand/shield should get some kind of increased skill based element to be able to defend themselves effectively. I think the damage is good for how you can block all directions at once, and the range isn't so short when you look at animation lengths. Increase risk and then maybe tweak damage. Maybe make it so you have to aim the centre of the shield at the blow to prevent it breaking or to only make it reduce a % of the players damage (like some crushthrough damage on the player if you don't aim the shield well). For the lack of risk associated with a shielder the damage is already very good.
You should try shielder yourself, don't judge based on situations where shielders killed you.
Right swing has long animation, thrust is longish as well but too risky atm. Overhead has some length as well but it's so hard to aim it. Left swing is effective, very fast but short.
You can block multiple directions only with big ass and heavy shields, like huscarl. With fast shields if facing two oponents, you're hardly going to block them both at the same time. You'll need good footwork for that and same can be done while manually blocking, albeit harder.
Also, no wonder you have no complains on 2H reach. You're mostly using glaive and long spear.
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All the shields seem to be have some crazy AOE effect as long as they point in the right general direction
I have a shielder STF. Don't have anywhere near as much experience with that as polearm/2 hand but it still feels like it could use an added layer of skill on the defence side of things. I don't think you have so much experience with shielders either Leshma? If you played for years with 1 hand/shield maybe you would think they're OP like you do 2 hand. The pierce/blunt 1 handers especially feel very powerful
Haven't been using glaive for months now. MW's are awlpike and poleaxe, so I have no vested interest in terms of range. I just factor manual blocking quite highly when it comes to how strong the offence of the class should be
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Adjust the sweetspot on the Greatswords, Claymore, and Sword of War so they will glance if you hiltslash with them and compensate for it by changing their halfswording modes to us 2h proficiency rather than polearm. Exclude the Nodachi and Flamberge from this change because the former has no thrust and the latter uses inferior pole animations.
Also, regarding what Diggles said about rotation penalty--it's a good idea, but make it based on weapon weight rather than length (going off of weapon length means that a Great Maul that weighs 8lbs will be able to rotate faster than an Espada Eslavona that weighs 1lb, for example) and increase the weight of the longest spears by 2x.
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All polearms are apparently getting new stats anywa to balance the shaft only doing some blunt damage, so dunno if it needs tweaking atm.
1 hand/shield should get some kind of increased skill based element to be able to defend themselves effectively. I think the damage is good for how you can block all directions at once, and the range isn't so short when you look at animation lengths. Increase risk and then maybe tweak damage. Maybe make it so you have to aim the centre of the shield at the blow to prevent it breaking or to only make it reduce a % of the players damage (like some crushthrough damage on the player if you don't aim the shield well). For the lack of risk associated with a shielder the damage is already very good. +1
I don't think 2 hand is necessarily OP, but I'm not sure -1
Also bonus random request: fix bugs on horse hitbox, so shields don't block attacks even when a horse jumps over you and you hit the underneath the horse 1+
2h GREATSWORDS is the most op and easy shit ever, normal 2h weapons are fine, some 2h axes need a buff, please give greatswords the polearm stab and nerf hiltslashing.
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Fixing the sweetspots on the greatsword would be a great help, if it can be done without nerfing the other 2H weapons. Really annoying that even in heavy armor I can be hit for half my life at both the very start and very end of a greatsword swing.
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Piercing swords should always have more pierce than cut, so +1 cut and +2 pierce, imo.
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2h axe buff is planned.
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1H - was nerfed hardest by turn attack nerf, stab is way too risky atm. Overhead as well. So there are basically two decent attack, one which is still epic (left swing) and the other situational attack (right swing). Combined with old issues (low reach) and cut one handed weapons being weak against armored folks with lot of HP, I must say this class is the worst melee class atm.
1H - buff to all swords. Balanced swords 3 points in swings and 2 point in thrust. Piercing swords 3 points in swings. Cutting swords 2 points in swing and 2 points in thrust. Slight buff to low tier hammers, slightly stronger buff to low tier picks. Axes should recieve same buff as cutting swords.
This will make non greatsword weapons a lot deadlier, people won't be able to take 5-10 hits before they get lucky chamber and one hit kill you. Some say that one handers should stay underpowered because they are usable with a shield but I think that we're at the point where most players can manually block better than they can use shields. Having a shield isn't an advantage in melee fights anymore.
I haven't really played since turn speed nerf but I can't imagine that 1h has become so underpowered. The left swing is very fast and guarantees a head hit which compensates the lowish damage. The right swing reach surprises A LOT of players. It also isn't as slow as some seem to think. Your suggested damage buff to swords would make nordic champion's and knightly arming sword ridiculously good.
How has shield become obsolete in melee fights? Last time I played with a slow shield it was damn easy to go against multiple opponents. In group fights you also avoid a lot of teamhits with a shield. Sure, when dueling good players, a shield becomes a burden but that's another matter.
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2h axe buff is planned.
What about greatsword stab nerf?
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What about greatsword stab nerf?
Fucking this.
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2h axe buff is planned.
What? The Great Axe? That weapon is pretty strong already.
I am still completely not fond of the turnrate nerf. It killed 2 of my attacks 1h attacks, which is a damn shame. In my opinion the decrease in turn speed should be reduced, save for the pike and longspear.
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I have to disagree on the stab animation.
The only difference between for example danish/german gaysword and normal poleaxe is that poleaxe has the better stats (+ bonus vs. shields) for ~ the same price, and the gayswords have the "lol"stab animation.
I enjoy playing my 2h alt (my main is polearm with mighty poleaxe).
Giving the greatsword polearm stab makes high end poles and 2h swords more or less the same, with polearm having boni like vs. shields, but they would be pretty much the same, just looking different.
I say keep the 2h stab animation, but just make it a bit shorter. Thats enough, because otherwise there would be no real difference between 4-directional top-tier poles and (2h)-greatswords.
I totally agree that 1/2 directional poles need a buff, my mw ashwood is weak :(
The 2h greatswords would still have their remaining animations fine, and it'd actually balance them with the remaining 2h+all other melee weapons.
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Yeah. But for me personally it would kill the fun playing my 2h alt, why play a level 30 2h when I can play my lvl 33 main with polearms and have the same animations?
I mean, I would just not play my 2h any longer (which is not a real "problem"), but I guess it would make many hardcore 2h elitist rage/whine or even GTX/quit the mod, and losing players is not good :\
You could always use one of the other weapons, longsword, bastard sword, morningstar, etc.
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I mean, I would just not play my 2h any longer (which is not a real "problem"), but I guess it would make many hardcore 2h elitist rage/whine or even GTX/quit the mod, and losing players is not good :\
Those players are already gone. Yes, servers are full of twohanders but those are people who figured out (were told) what is currently OP and retired/respecced their chars into 2H. Most of them were using polearms before polestagger removal.
I'm not for greatswords nerf, I want to see other weapons buffed. But the fact is, if they nerf greatswords, few people will whine for couple of days and after that they'll retire into something else and everything will be fine again.
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get rid of 2h stab animation, replace it with polearm mode stab
Then 2H will become very easy prey for Cav, I guess the reason why they have lolstab it is because it gives them more chance to fight against Cav, replace it with polearm stab animation will only result more Cav whine
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That is why I'm suggesting buff to other weapons. Cav and ranged players profit from the fact that it takes ages to kill someone in melee because everyone can block now.
If infantry weapons were deadlier, infantry fights wouldn't last so long and therefore infantry will have more time to deal with cav and ranged (to observe their surroundings).
Currently, cRPG is way too forgiving. With 70 HP and 15 body armor I'm able to survive 2-3 hits on average. Most horsebumps hurt me more than average hits I recieve. That's just silly. With setup like mine I shouldn't be able to survive after someone hit me with damaging weapon. With more armor situation only gets worse.
Greatswords are fine when it comes to dps, thanks to their length, speed and fluid animations which allows you to combine attacks easily. Polearms usually get blocked after first hit, that's why we had polestagger to allow polearms to combine hits like twohanded weapons. One handed weapons aren't fast enough to spam anyone and they aren't damaging either.
Few days ago I had a situation where I hit some kuyak my old friend 7 times with MW Knightly Arming sword and 7 PS, just to end up dead when his teammate on a horse showed up and distracted me which allowed him to spam his greatsword. Some balance...
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Wider FOV + Q as look behind button fixed 90% of issues I had with cavalry. Problem is that people don't like to look behind and because of that get couched all the time. Funniest thing I've witnessed was when my whole team stayed at one place, shielders formed massive shield wall and some noob on rouncey managed to couch some guy from the side while going uphill like 20 km/h. I was like, wtf how come people can be that stupid...
Cavalry will be nerfed pretty hard when cmp removes shield forcefield when mounted.
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Cavalry will be nerfed pretty hard when cmp removes shield forcefield when mounted.
I think it will also affect infantry since its about forceshield on shields, then all shielders will rage respec into 2handers/ polearm because they have to use board shield in order to fight against ranged effectively, then there will no more shielders in cRPG
Leave great/ jousting lance couchable but couch needs to be removed from normal lances imo.
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2h axe buff is planned.
If you don't mind, could you explain the rationale for this? I'm not necessarily opposed to it, as more weapon diversity is always a good thing, but buffing 2h axes without any other changes indirectly weakens poles (one of their selling points is that they allegedly have the best weapons to use against shields) and shields (more weapons out there that hard counter your spec).
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I think it will also affect infantry since its about forceshield on shields, then all shielders will rage respec into 2handers/ polearm because they have to use board shield in order to fight against ranged effectively, then there will no more shielders in cRPG
He was talking about shield forcefield when mounted being removed. Foot shielders will keep forcefield.
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He was talking about shield forcefield when mounted being removed. Foot shielders will keep forcefield.
I do hope it will work only on mounted people, but then If I were one of the lancer who use shield i will probably respec into proper polearm lancer, using a shield will have lance damage reduction anyway, the main reason lancers use them it is because it helps their horse to survive in melee/ protect the rider, if forceshield is gone there is no reason to use it since its just a waste of skill points)
P.S arabian horse riders that use shields like royanss will rage since if this actually happened he won't be able to top score like before anymore .... :lol:
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All the babies (Diggles) saying that all 2h should have pole stab need to check themselves (and I just retired and went polearm). Differing animations are what make weapon classes distinct and interesting. Without different animations, the only thing separating weapon classes is aesthetics. Destroying that distinction just makes combat that is already increasingly predictable and boring (half of possible attacks had their viability reduced with turnspeed nerf) more so. Shared animations across weapon classes as a rule should be restricted to niche and novelty weapons.
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Well i think 2h and polearms are fine,what realy needs a buff is 1h. Fighting plated user as shielder is so annoying.
You need 6 hits to kill him with 7 ps and mw NCS,but tincan is using maul or morningstar,so if he hits you once,you are fucked.
You will say that i should use blunt weapon,but those things are too short,and everyone is using kicks. So if i want to hit him i need to almoust face hug him,but he will hit me or backepedal spam.
Every 2h now use kick.
also don't buff 1h and 2h axes,those things are OP even now. My masterwork sword have 35 cut,but stupid axe have 37 cut (1h iron axe).
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Well i think 2h and polearms are fine,what realy needs a buff is 1h. Fighting plated user as shielder is so annoying.
You need 6 hits to kill him with 7 ps and mw NCS,but tincan is using maul or morningstar,so if he hits you once,you are fucked.
You will say that i should use blunt weapon,but those things are too short,and everyone is using kicks. So if i want to hit him i need to almoust face hug him,but he will hit me or backepedal spam.
Every 2h now use kick.
also don't buff 1h and 2h axes,those things are OP even now. My masterwork sword have 35 cut,but stupid axe have 37 cut (1h iron axe).
Good footwork can easily avoid kicks, and that one 1h hammer even got a stab for when guys try to kick you.
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guy is going backwards and have same athl then me and longer weapon.
I have steel pick that is long 60,so please explain how can i catch him,and how can i outreach him and stab him with weapon that doesn't have stab and it is slower?
what footwork when he is backpedaling? If you move to side he can also kick you without any problem.
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Zlichy u should respec to 1h and show us how to play with hammer,use footwork,and stab with pick. I would pay you with gold to teach me.
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guy is going backwards and have same athl then me and longer weapon.
I have steel pick that is long 60,so please explain how can i catch him,and how can i outreach him and stab him with weapon that doesn't have stab and it is slower?
what footwork when he is backpedaling? If you move to side he can also kick you without any problem.
You need more athletics. Unless you wear no armor, 1-handers really need at least 6 athletics. How else do you expect to hit someone with a weapon 3 times as long as yours?
Also, having higher athletics makes it much, much easier to dodge kicks.
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Sadly, most shielders can't afford 8 ath or more. With 7 ath you're on level with 6 ath 2H guys but those with more agi will rape you (like my 2H guy, for example). Sure, you can use 15/24 but then you'll have to forgot about swords.
You should know something about EU servers, rustyspoon. Here, every single 2H backpedals all the time (including me). People fight differently on NA servers.
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You need more athletics. Unless you wear no armor, 1-handers really need at least 6 athletics. How else do you expect to hit someone with a weapon 3 times as long as yours?
Also, having higher athletics makes it much, much easier to dodge kicks.
well currently i am lvl 27 and this is my first gen as shielder that i am going over 5 athl. So i currently have 5 athl and 16 agi.
5 athl is enough,but i would like to spam ppl more. :mrgreen: There is only one problem 0 if is big,big problem.
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Sadly, most shielders can't afford 8 ath or more. With 7 ath you're on level with 6 ath 2H guys but those with more agi will rape you (like my 2H guy, for example). Sure, you can use 15/24 but then you'll have to forgot about swords.
You should know something about EU servers, rustyspoon. Here, every single 2H backpedals all the time (including me). People fight differently on NA servers.
I dunno why more people on EU don't pickup throwing, it's perfect for dealing with backpeddlers.
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Zlichy u should respec to 1h and show us how to play with hammer,use footwork,and stab with pick. I would pay you with gold to teach me.
I am 1h on my stf atm.
How you can catch him if you both got the same athl: Wear less heavy armor, realize that S is slower than W.
If you think a guy is about to kick you there are 3 things to do: 1. move away, dodge the kick, then circle him and cut him in the back. 2. Jump, you can't get kicked while jumping and by the time you're on the ground again the kick is done. 3. Stab, can't be done with pick, but, if you use a pick, see option 1 or option 2.
1h swords are up needs a decent buff, axes might need a very tiny buff or they're fine, hammers 'n' picks are fine.
Also, the major drawback of the pick is the fact that it is insanely short and that it can't stab, besides that it is an extremely fast and a good damaging weapon.
So, I can't teach you how to stab with a pick but if you want I can spend a few minutes teaching you extremely basic footwork, I won't be needing any gold for it. :P
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If warhammer lost the stab, it would compete much more with the pick imo.
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If warhammer lost the stab, it would compete much more with the pick imo.
So, by removing an option you're making the weapon better? lol, honestly, 18 pierce with decent (6) ps is enough to stun most players if the hit is timed right, and therefore it's useful against kickers, if you can't figure out how to choose your attack direction then honestly, eh.
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You can try the warhammer stab out yourself if you want. I feel the removal of the stab makes it much easier to use sideswings without robotically maneuvering your camera that much. After an overhead for example, you may want to center your camera by moving it down, but you want to do a side swing at the same time.
Admittedly, I haven't used the warhammer stab since the turn radius change, maybe it's a little better now?
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increase speed on 1-2 direction polearms
Hahaha, I won't argue with you. I'll shit my pants if they do it though.
make rotation penalty scale to weapon length, shorter weapons being able to turn the most
This - 100%. 10000% even
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You can try the warhammer stab out yourself if you want. I feel the removal of the stab makes it much easier to use sideswings without robotically maneuvering your camera that much. After an overhead for example, you may want to center your camera by moving it down, but you want to do a side swing at the same time.
Admittedly, I haven't used the warhammer stab since the turn radius change, maybe it's a little better now?
I've used the warhammer with 6 ps against kuyak my old friends on EU_3 on my stf, don't glance if I hit him right and he doesn't S key.