cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Konrax on July 25, 2012, 11:22:10 pm
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Just wondering why they are so damn effective compared to all other weapons as far as raw damage and speed are concerned.
Using a hammer is kind of pointless... because if you use a pick you will land hits more often (speed) and kill in equal or less swings (damage).
For example, the BEST 1h stabbing weapon, the espada, does 30 damage base. Steel pick however does 32 damage.
I like the idea of having so many different types of weapons that you can really find a niche, but the pick imho has a bit too much goodness compared to other weapons in the same class.
/kick dead horse
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Hammers have knockdown which is epic feature. I think that hammers are slightly better than picks.
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It's also pierce damage and quite short, not always really useful. You really need to face hug to spam the enemy, and it is of course not the best weapon vs light/medium armor (that is why its 32 dmg I guess).
Most people will prefer some knockdown chance though.
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The real problem with the pick is its good damage, combined with its fast speed and the fact that it is INCREDIBLY difficult to see. If they made the model easier to see, I would be happy.
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It's also pierce damage
That is not a bad side. Pierce is better than cut in every regards.
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The real problem with the pick is its good damage, combined with its fast speed and the fact that it is INCREDIBLY difficult to see. If they made the model easier to see, I would be happy.
Not that hard. I can block kinngrimm most of the time and he has one digit ping and 30 agi build.
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Pierce is only slightly better than blunt (maybe even worse against high armor actually since the soak modifier change), 1h hammers and maces are barely slower than picks, slightly longer, heavier (no block stun), even the cheapest 1h maces have very good stats and most importantly they all got knockdown.
Imo 1h hammers are superior to picks.
It's true sword stabs could use a buff though, especially those that do less than 20 damage and glance on everything. It's almost better to get a no-stab weapon in that case.
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Afaik blunt is better against armor up until a value of 60 raw damage, then pierce starts being better. Just see them as pretty much equal.
That is not a bad side. Pierce is better than cut in every regards.
It always seemed to me that pierce is really bad at breaking shields, might just be the lower base damage value though.
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might just be the lower base damage value though.
Yep.
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Picks are incredibly short. This leaves you vulnerable to kicks, and forces you to get in range of several opponents in order to land a hit in a group fight.
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They aim for your haid ... i would you would be a onehit when you have a badder helmet than nordic helmet, im using mw awlpike with 6PS
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i think it's weird that the pick does more damage than an english bill, especially considering that the bill is a 2d weapon
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picks arent too buff its just that blunts weapons are way too UP now.
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blunt is epic. 1st swing, knock someone down, 2nd swing hit'em on the ground, kick'em and 3rd swing in the head to finish'em off. picks arent cool like that
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I don't like to use the warhammer because I do the stab by accident, but a loomed iberian mace is so very nice. My 8 PS gets many knockdowns on people when I use one. +1 blunt on warhammer seems fine to me. Steel pick isn't even much faster compared to other 1hers, it's just how its model looks to some people. When I fight a pick, it's hard to tell whose swing will hit first sometimes. When I fight other pick users, I don't get much damage unless they are high strength.
Cut 1hers (especially short) should get a cut damage buff imo.
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i think it's weird that the pick does more damage than an english bill, especially considering that the bill is a 2d weapon
They make equal or more damage than almost all of the polearms, which is kinda... well... strange as you should have much more force with a spear than such a small tool.
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pick size is 64 and polearms 150+, see difference? the thing i hate most in steel pick is - some strange misses because of size and ping, when you see how pick just comes thru enemy and made 0 dmg, this piss me off sometimes.
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Buff the 1h stab to make it more balanced.
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I'm not really sure about the whole 1h situation to be honest after this thread, I made the post just to ask what people thought about the pick, but now people are talking about buffing stabs.
To be honest since the spin nerf I think 1h got hit the worst, it is bloody tough to land overhead now especially. I find that I don't even do overhead swings that often just because its too damn hard to land with any real consistency.
The 1h stab animation also isn't really the greatest, and the leftswing is fast yes, but to land a headshot you need to raise it up a bit which makes chambering non existent.
Not too sure how I feel about 1h anymore.
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I'm not really sure about the whole 1h situation to be honest after this thread, I made the post just to ask what people thought about the pick, but now people are talking about buffing stabs.
You included comparisons to other 1h weapons in your post. Why they are "damn effective compared to all other weapons," then put in comparisons to the blunt weapons and the cut+stabweapons.
Basically, the knockdown helps make up for the slight differences in damage/speed. Blunt pretty much = pierce, but the blunt weapons have slightly worse stats in general. Even so, many of the blunt weapons are still pretty fast, and they're heavy so they don't get stunned. In comparison to the blunt/pierce weapons, the other 1hs are still a bit weak, so a little more discussion about what to change for them was included.
Right now, steel pick is still favorable compared to the other 1hs even against cloth. The high tier cut 1hs should have more favorable base damage to be more effective than the pick against low armor.
I would not mind a buff on many of the cut weapons, +2 cut and +1/+2 pierce on the stab depending on the weapon. I feel that high tier fully loomed 1h should reach non-loomed longsword or katana levels. The blunt weapons should be made more similar to their pierce counterparts, too, although they are some of the best knockdown weapons.
Overhead takes a lot more practice nowadays, and isn't very reliable in a 1v1 against an agi build.
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I don't think picks are that OP. The super short range is tough to use on picks. The only guy on NA who really owns with it is San, and his footwork & feinting is so good he'd own with any weapon anyways. They do shine in a situation that's jam packed though, like a strategus siege with a heavy fight on the walls, but a lot of short weapons do. In siege server when things get really compressed like that, I actually switch from my 73 range axe to my 55 range heavy throwing axe, even right swings don't glance much at that range.
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Konrax i think you should play first with pick and 1h blunt weapons before you post topics like this.
I would realy like to see you with pick figthing 2h,pole users,1h with long wepons. 60-70 range is so short that anyone can outspam you,any average 2h can kick you and kill you any time. your problem is bad footwork and getting too close to enemy instead keeping him on distance.
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60-70 range is so short that anyone can outspam you,any average 2h can kick you and kill you any time.
Bad footwork let's 'em kick you...
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Konrax i think you should play first with pick and 1h blunt weapons before you post topics like this.
I would realy like to see you with pick figthing 2h,pole users,1h with long wepons. 60-70 range is so short that anyone can outspam you,any average 2h can kick you and kill you any time. your problem is bad footwork and getting too close to enemy instead keeping him on distance.
He uses the Iberian mace pretty dang well.. I don't think he's really complaining too much except for the overhead part, which is pretty reasonable.
Pick's weaknesses are that you can strafe to the left against them and render them pretty ineffective as well as the heavy reliance on the slow right swing. It should have a few more, which I believe is more of a weakness against light armor than cut counterparts as I stated earlier in the topic. Nerfing the stats would just make everyone move to the warhammer or iberian mace anyways.
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Steel pick is very difficult to use unless you have like 8 Athletics. I did a gen with it and 6 Ath, and spent most of my time whiffing and/or getting kicked.
Blunt is also slightly better than Pierce on medium armor; you can verify this on the Damage Calculator http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm (http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm). For instance, 33pierce (+3 Military Pick) does the same damage to 50 armor as 31 blunt (warhammer or +3 Military hammer). A +3 Warhammer actually outdamages a +3 Steel Pick on 50 armor also.
With only 6 athletics, I much prefer my +3 Military Hammer to a steel pick. Reach feels almost like a sword, but it hits like a 2h sword on medium+ armor. And knockdown is worth a couple free kills every map. 94 speed is still pretty fast in the scheme of things, I just don't risk slow right swings against spammitars etc.
EDIT: Oh, and steel pick does about the same damage to medium armor as a Danish Greatsword, which has 2-3 times the reach (depending on attack direction). A retarded llama can pick up a Danish and stay near the top of the scoreboard, but it takes a pretty skilled player to be effective with the steel pick.
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He uses the Iberian mace pretty dang well.. I don't think he's really complaining too much except for the overhead part, which is pretty reasonable.
Pick's weaknesses are that you can strafe to the left against them and render them pretty ineffective as well as the heavy reliance on the slow right swing. It should have a few more, which I believe is more of a weakness against light armor than cut counterparts as I stated earlier in the topic. Nerfing the stats would just make everyone move to the warhammer or iberian mace anyways.
I also did about 4 gens with a mighty warhammer, so I am not a nub to short 1h weapons. =)
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I don't like to use the warhammer because I do the stab by accident
If they took the thrust off the warhammer I would have never traded for the elite scimi.
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Doesn't pierce have an x3 damage multiplier for head hits? Or is that a rumour.
Might be the reason for the difference.
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Doesn't pierce have an x3 damage multiplier for head hits? Or is that a rumour.
Might be the reason for the difference.
It's a rumor.
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It's a rumor.
I thought the x3 was for pierce ranged weapons, but I might've been mistaken. As for melee weapons, there's definitely not a x3 multiplicator for headhits.
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This was the exact same issue people had with the Mace. The pathetic reach of the weapon was the balancing factor. And it was nerfed with less damage, less speed, and less weight(for knockdown). Except with the steel pick you also have a shield that autoblocks for you. The steel pick does an incredible amount of damage. One thing that I shouldn't point out for people is that when you use a weapon with pathetic reach you're suceptible to kicks. Nobody understood that balance, we had to be ignorant and dole out the nerfs. So I support leveling the playing field and nerfing one handers that do as much damage as 2h's while still letting the player have a shield. Rest in peace 2h Mace.
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Any mediocre player can make a 24/15 STF char, grab a greatsword, and be near the top of the scoreboard every round.
Some top players can excel with a pick/warhammer/etc, but the average joe that tries a short 1-hander will spend most of their time whiffing due to the short reach, getting hit in the back of the head by teammates as they facehug their enemies, and/or getting kicked. Even the top players generally have to go heavy agility to be effective with the short 1-handers, making them so fragile that a 2-hander can one-shot them if caught unaware.
I tried a generation with a Steel Pick, and I wasn't very effective at all. Facehugging is just too hazardous, thanks to kicks and teamwounds.
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Wat?
Lets see, Manowar and San both have 8 ps... Not seeing them "having" to go high agility. And you're saying because you held a pick in your hand it caused you to get team wounded?
With a 1h sword you can stay out of kick range. Like I said, the short weapons should suffer the risk of getting hit by kicks because of the damage they do... however, if you're smart with your footwork and directions it's really hard for them to land kicks.
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Just wondering why they are so damn effective compared to all other weapons as far as raw damage and speed are concerned.
Using a hammer is kind of pointless... because if you use a pick you will land hits more often (speed) and kill in equal or less swings (damage).
For example, the BEST 1h stabbing weapon, the espada, does 30 damage base. Steel pick however does 32 damage.
I like the idea of having so many different types of weapons that you can really find a niche, but the pick imho has a bit too much goodness compared to other weapons in the same class.
/kick dead horse
Simple.
Steel pick has a unique design which let's you penetrate armor and rip off internal organs with a single hit .
You can create a hole in plate armor with every hit by using steel pick.
Maces are more likely used to daze the enemy they rarely hit the flesh inside the armor but the momentum they deal to armor is enough to daze,stun or take the breath away from a knight which leads to dealing a killing blow with a dagger when the knight is laying down in the ground.
To deal damage on a plated knight with a sword (Espada for example)
You need to find weakspots such as armpits and connection zones of plates and stab your sword through those places which are protected with mail and hardened ladder only.
You can't penetrate armor for example steel cuirass with a stabbing sword because the lenght and flat design of the sword will not gonna handle the recoil of the impact and shatter.
Swinging a steelpick is faster and more powerful then making a straight stab with a sword therefore pick can easily penetrate armor.
This is why steel pick deals huge damage against armored people.
Since most of the people use armor it seems overpowered and some 2handers can cry about the damage.
Problem is you just ignore technologic development of medieval era.
When greatswords and huscarl axes were powerful and "overpowered" best knights were wearing chain mail armor while less important troops wear only hardened leather armors.
Big axes were used to counter footmen with big shields.
Then soldiers began wearing full plates and weapon technology evolved to be able to damage those guys which gave history bec de corbins , picks,maces , poleaxes etc
Then gunpowder founded and very good mixture of steel were produced therefore instead of wearing heavy plate armors , knights started to wear cuirasses which cover your chest and have very much weakspots at neck,armpits,shoulders and ankles. People started to use sidesword,long espada type weapons to kill those men by using their many weakspots.
Now you are crying because you can't kill a knight who wears an armor which is 300 years ahead of your weapon.
Which looks silly :)
Same as crying because you can't shoot an F-22 Raptor with KAR-98 infantry rifle.
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Lets see, Manowar and San both have 8 ps... Not seeing them "having" to go high agility. And you're saying because you held a pick in your hand it caused you to get team wounded?
You're only proving my point, that it takes an exceptional player to excel with a pick. Manowar and San would wreck with a practice dagger. Every round you can find multiple "scrubs" wielding greatswords near the top of the scoreboard, but whenever a pick user is up there, it's usually a high level, veteran player with a ton of looms.
And yes, the shorter the weapon, the more frequently you get teamhit. I shouldn't have to explain this.
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Pick is really hard to use in open areas. I like to think I am pretty effective with my 73 length axe but on battle servers dropping down to 64 length is just way too low. I don't think it's that OP, on NA at least the only guy who really rapes with it is San and he is good enough he'd own with any weapon.
On Siege a pick is better, as long as you mostly stick to fighting is small, enclosed areas like walls, turrets, doorways and gatehouses.
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You're only proving my point, that it takes an exceptional player to excel with a pick. Manowar and San would wreck with a practice dagger. Every round you can find multiple "scrubs" wielding greatswords near the top of the scoreboard, but whenever a pick user is up there, it's usually a high level, veteran player with a ton of looms.
And yes, the shorter the weapon, the more frequently you get teamhit. I shouldn't have to explain this.
I like how you glossed over my point about you saying 1h's have to have high agility. These players do not have high agility, I'm sorry I had to spell it out. For referring to people as "scrubs" I'm not even sure who you are. I really don't see greatsword using "scrubs" near the top of the scoreboard every round. The ones I do see at the top "every round" are, at the very least, player's who know what they're doing. The only real true scrubs that I see sometimes doing quite well are those random bad players with a shield who find a ton of other bad players without a shield. They walk up holding block, the other player hits their shield very slowly, and then gets killed by slow random attacks. You can see the shielder doesn't even know what attack is coming out, he's just attacking, then holding block. It's rather funny to watch. This only happens at extreme times (early/late)when you have less people who know what they're doing.
You get teamhit by bad swings or your own sporadic movement that an average level player can't and shouldn't try to predict when trying to get a hit in, I shouldn't have to explain this.
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Silver, I'm not going to get into an internet pissing contest with you. I'm sorry some skilled players occasionally kill you with a very specialized 64 length weapon, but that doesn't mean that picks are the scourge of overpoweredness you make them out to be.
I thought to myself a couple months ago "mauls are OP on siege". To test my hypothesis, I made a STF mauler (having never even played a 2H char before), and sure enough, I could close my eyes and smash overheads on top of a ladder/in a doorway and top the scoreboard.
Have you tried a steel pick alt to see its strengths/limitations firsthand? I didn't have much fun during my generation with a steel pick, looms and all. Constant teamwounds, glances on overheads, and getting owned by the S key.
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Obviously you never read my posts, since I kept pointing out that people aren't getting that the short weapon is balanced because of the reach, thats why it hits really hard. I pointed out thats why my mace (70 reach) previously did great damage. So with the irony of others now wanting the pick nerfed, I made it clear that I could care less if it got nerfed. Yes, I mained a shielder for quite a few gens. Easiest blocking I've ever done. Takes a little more to kill people, but having the shield is a great trade-off. Whenever I touched the pick, not even loomed, it wrecked everything it touched. My build used 7 PS.
EDIT:
I'm sorry some skilled players occasionally kill you with a very specialized 64 length weapon, but that doesn't mean that picks are the scourge of overpoweredness you make them out to be.
I'm still confused where this came from.
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Obviously you never read my posts, since I kept pointing out that people aren't getting that the short weapon is balanced because of the reach, thats why it hits really hard. I pointed out thats why my mace (70 reach) previously did great damage.
I'm sorry your weapon got nerfed, but that shouldn't be justification for nerfing the steel pick also. Mace was nerfed because it was head and shoulders above the other 1-slot sidearms for archers/xbowmen. When they nerfed the mace, they should have added a 2-slot version with better stats.
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I think both weapons were/are fine. But I'm fine with the longsword and 1 stack of bolts, I used the mace because it allowed me 2 stacks of bolts and was a good weapon. Despite the fact I had to constantly block against polearms/greatswords before I could get 1 swing in. Now there is no reason for any ranged to use the mace, they would get better utility from having 1h wpf and having access to the 1h maces that are now superior to the mace as well as all the other weapons that are 1 slot. You had 2 choices with 2h wpf, now you have 1, the langes messer is a better weapon than the mace after the nerf. You get the same mace but the ability to use a shield with the iberian. But anyway, this post is about the pick, which I think does an awesome amount of damage, but I don't necessarily believe it deserves a nerf. However as I said, after experiencing the mace nerf, I don't care if the same thing happens to the pick. At least they have a shield to fall back on.
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Woooo, 27-12 shielder scrubs ftw!
Why the hell is the military hammer not also a 2h mode? 80 length, should be a 2h with X.....just a thought.
I like using short weapons as a Str shielder. But, I also only play siege or dtv, so its all about crammed bodies, tight spaces, reduced whiffing 1h, and high damage/knockdown.
Sounds hot.
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Lets see, Manowar and San both have 8 ps... Not seeing them "having" to go high agility. And you're saying because you held a pick in your hand it caused you to get team wounded?
Mano uses an Italian, which has decent reach. If you have a high ath 2h build and you hate fun, then it is entirely possible to beat San in a duel by spending the entire fight backpedalling and kicking. Why anybody would play in such an boring manner is beyond me, though.
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^I can confirm this, as long as you can block and kick decently well, it can become a test of patience. Flowchart/formulaic fights are generally unfun, would prefer to see some dynamic play and learning mid-fight.
Having low agility is from a time where I made a wager with someone on the forums about how slow you can be with a short weapon. My ideal with the steel pick would probably be 21/21 for an overall build and 18/24 for a specialty build (high level only). I experienced a pretty large performance gain from switching from 27/12 steel pick to 24/15 back last fall.
The 1h blunt/pierce look particularly powerful because of the lack of highest tier blunt/pierce weapons for other weapon types. Some of them even got nerfed, like the bec de corbin. However, you still see ridiculously powerful and short weapons like the great maul and morningstar, and some mid-tier weapons like the bar mace that all have pretty respectable damage.