Danish and German Greatswords Thrust has more reach than the thrust of a War Spear.
Nerf.
Here, I'll run the numbers for you and copy paste from the damage calc.
21 str, 7 PS, 100 wpf, 40 c 2h:
40 armor - 21 - 40
50 armor - 13 - 35
60 armor - 7 - 30
70 armor - 3 - 25
21 str, 7 PS, 100 wpf, 23 p 2h:
40 armor - 11 - 24
50 armor - 6 - 21
60 armor - 1 - 17
70 armor - 0 - 14
You will never get a 100% speed bonus on foot. 20% on average is probably realistic, and even with that you're still not doing anywhere near the amount of damage that you'd do, if you just chose a side swing.
21 str, 7 PS, 100 wpf, 30 p pole:
40 armor - 21 - 34
50 armor - 14 - 30
60 armor - 8 - 27
70 armor - 4 - 23
Polearms with 30 or more pierce thrust: Battle Fork, Awlpike, Long Awlpike, Ashwood Pike, Double Sided Lance, Poleaxe. There are more, but I excluded them for obvious reasons.
... you can walk into a finished animation and still get hit.
Do you know how much damage 23p is?
You have got to be kidding me... Has anyone in this thread actually looked at the damage that 2h thrusts have? Do you know how much damage 23p is? Sure, it's pierce, but on a 13K gold sword, it better at least do SOME damage. The swings do a minimum of two times as much damage. Just go run the numbers on the damage calc, hell multiply that damage by 10% to account for thrusts being easier to get a good speed bonus with than side swings. You're still looking at a lot less damage for thrusts, than for any other swing.Lol at 2h player not thinking his stab is completely op, I play 2h on all my stf melee dueling/battle tryhard alts, reason is, it's fucking easy, I even only use a longsword the majority of the time and it's still easy as fuck.
If you take the range away from greatswords, you take away a huge factor that plays into the versatility of 2hers, as that's really all greatswords have going for them.
Lol at 2h player not thinking his stab is completely op, I play 2h on all my stf melee dueling/battle tryhard alts, reason is, it's fucking easy, I even only use a longsword the majority of the time and it's still easy as fuck.Ask anyone in the NA community if they've seen the character "PRO_Tydeus" on for more than an hour in the last month. No one will say yes. Yet if you ask about my alts (1h, pole, and cav alts) they'd say the opposite.
Yes, it's 6 more than a +3 katana has. The greatswords are too long to thrust the way they do, if you thrusted like that in real life you'd get tired faster than you can say "lolstab". The main reason that people cry about 2H being OP is because of the massive length and speed of the greatswords, especially the stab. The shorter 2H weapons are actually not all that good, they're certainly balanced with 1H and the majority of polearms - it's just that hardly anyone uses them because they can spend a couple thousand more to use a greatsword.You got more kills with a melee weapon than you did with throwing, and somehow you think that should warrant a nerf to the weapon you were using at the time? You do realize that throwing isn't in a state to be able to get more kills than pretty much any melee class, right? I haven't seen a single thrower get anywhere near the top of the scoreboard in battle, without having to rely mostly on melee.
I picked up a MW danish on my (1wpf 2h) thrower alt the other day and got more kills with it in 30 seconds than I did with my throwing spears for the next 4 rounds. In siege. When you can get that kind of result from a sword with NO proficiency, something is seriously fucking wrong.
Give all the 120+ length swords the polearm stab animation, that should fix it right up.
In addition to being excessively long both in thrust length and duration, the two handed sword stab is also perfectly leveled for the head.QFT.
I'm a fairly mediocre two handed swordsman but when I do rack up the kills, it's most often due to the thrust. Put a great sword in my hands and I become a highly versatile spearman - I don't believe this is the way the class is meant to be employed, but it's only my opinion.
well they tried to do something about it. result? well you cant stab with 1h or a short polearm anymore...fail
The new 1h stab is very, very good. Once you get used to it, it's much easier to get a stab off than it used to be and you can actually stab from logical ranges.you are the only one claiming this.
Has anyone in this thread actually looked at the damage that 2h thrusts have? Do you know how much damage 23p is? Sure, it's pierce, but on a 13K gold sword, it better at least do SOME damage.
Just 5p less than a War Spear thrustNot to mention: that's the 2handed sword that are CUT focused and thus have LOW stab damage. What about the German? 26 pierce. BUT WAIT! Wanna know what the secondary half swording stab damage is? At MW, it's 35 (!) pierce damage. That's just 1 less than a MW awlpike. Yeah. 2h stab is so bad :(
Just 3p less than a Long Spear thrust
Just 1p less than the Pike Thrust
This "suggestion threads" are not valid.
Just 5p less than a War Spear thrust3 less than an Elegant Poleaxe
Just 3p less than a Long Spear thrust
Just 1p less than the Pike Thrust
3 less than an Elegant PoleaxeWhy are you still using 23 pierce damage? The German has 26. Same as the Elegant Poleaxe. Even more when you use halfswording. Stop bitching.
6 less than a German Poleaxe
8 less than a Poleaxe
5 pierce is a huge amount when you're talking about numbers in the 20s, that's just under 20% damage. The pikes are supposed to have relatively low pierce, as if they had high pierce, they'd be greatly OP. It'd be like giving high pierce to a lancer, you throw in movement speed and their ability to outrange everything, and of course it'd be broken. Bamboo Spear: 2000 Gold 25p, Sword of War: 13000 gold, 23p. Even if you make the argument that you can use greatswords as pikes, due to their effective reach, they'd still have both less range and less damage for more gold, even if you compare it to hoplites. You also have to be aware of one of the most counterintuitive, janky mechanics in warband. One that dictates that slow weapons should be more affected by speed modifiers than fast ones. So you see that 81/68 speed for those pikes? That's adding damage.
Bamboo Spear: 2000 Gold 25p, Sword of War: 13000 gold, 23p. Even if you make the argument that you can use greatswords as pikes, due to their effective reach, they'd still have both less range and less damage for more gold.But you see, greatswords aren't pikes, they can just be used as pikes while still being able to also use sideswings and overheads, in order to compare greatswords to spears and not say greatswords are way better you need to make greatswords two directional... and regarding them poleaxes, you greatsword still got far greater reach... and you got a secondary mode with quite nice pierce damage if you ever feel like it, greatswords are by far the most powerful weapons, and got the most powerfull stab, and if I jump right in front of a guy I can still stab him in the face even though our bodies collide... Nerf Please.
Why are you still using 23 pierce damage? The German has 26. Same as the Elegant Poleaxe. Even more when you use halfswording. Stop bitching.Because that's the average for 2h stabs. The Danish is still only 24(1 point off from what I'm using), pretty much everything else has 22 or 23. You can't make global balance changes by focusing on extreme cases. The German Greatsword is a weapon that specializes in the thrust, it is the extreme case. The entire point of that weapon, is to focus on utilizing the thrust to its maximum potential.
But you see, greatswords aren't pikes, they can just be used as pikes while still being able to also use sideswings and overheads, in order to compare greatswords to spears and not say greatswords are way better you need to make greatswords two directional... and regarding them poleaxes, you greatsword still got far greater reach... and you got a secondary mode with quite nice pierce damage if you ever feel like it, greatswords are by far the most powerful weapons, and got the most powerfull stab, and if I jump right in front of a guy I can still stab him in the face even though our bodies collide... Nerf Please.Using it as a pike and being as effective as a pike are two totally different things. The second part, I'm actually in half agreement with. I think after losing polestagger, bi-directional weapons and spears are in need of a buff (and cmp said they need one), so if comparing their current stats, while not taking into account polestagger, I would say that greatswords are going to be better for all except the heaviest support roles. Where having two really long range attacks, rather than only one, becomes more important.
Isnt the problem here that the 2h stab has high damage range and speed? Where polearms are doing worse on the stabs on average?I hope not, because they objectively do not have high damage. As I said before, just go run the number with the damage calculator. 22-26 pierce is low to medium damage. Pierce is good, but it's so low numerically, that without a good speed modifier, you will never do more damage than your side swings, not even against an opponent with 70 armor.
I hope not, because they objectively do not have high damage. As I said before, just go run the number with the damage calculator. 22-26 pierce is low to medium damage. Pierce is good, but it's so low numerically, that without a good speed modifier, you will never do more damage than your side swings, not even against an opponent with 70 armor.
i'd like to point out that these threads/this sentiment (nerf 2h) has only popped up after polestagger/overhead+stab spin was removed/nerfed. before, the "melee balance" worked like sothe game was too hard when you could use twitchy movement to do feints bro
shield - autoblock, excellent left/overhand, ridiculous stab activation - short/weak weapons, slower
2h - best animations ~elite duelz~, reach - either use cut or use unbalanced weapons, expensive
pole - versatility (pierce, cut, blunt, v. long range) and polestagger - shit animations
but now with the nerfs added in, shielder overhead and stab was nerfed into the ground, the polearm 2 directional weapons are worthless and the rest of the polearms no longer have their bad animations offset by polestagger.
basically like i've said in a dozen threads those two nerfs were a terrible idea and should be reverted asap
Actually, the devs found that polestagger wasn't the only annoying thing polearms did. They also did damage, so they're removing that next patch.
MW Light Lance has 31 pierce, MW Long Spear has 29 pierce, MW Bamboo Spear has 28 pierce. MW X Swords have 24-28 pierce. Thats not much difference. Non MW items even have less difference as spears gain 3 pierce while Swords only gain 2 pierce on MW.
I do heavy damage with Long Spear or Light Lance, so do you with a X Sword with almost the same reach (or even more) as my Light Lance and 4 directions, compared to my 2 or 1 with Long Spear.
BTW: Talking about Poleaxes is useless, as almost no one uses these and they are really short!
basically like i've said in a dozen threads those two nerfs were a terrible idea and should be reverted asapDon't think it's going to get reverted any time soon, but I do know that it's getting changed/cleaned up, quite a bit.
Because that's the average for 2h stabs. The Danish is still only 24(1 point off from what I'm using), pretty much everything else has 22 or 23. You can't make global balance changes by focusing on extreme cases. The German Greatsword is a weapon that specializes in the thrust, it is the extreme case. The entire point of that weapon, is to focus on utilizing the thrust to its maximum potential.You can't really call a 92 speed, 38c swing damage a "weapon that specializes in the thrust". It has a good thrust yeah, but that doesn't mean it's an "extreme thrusting weapon". That definition are for weapons that have a good stab and crappy swings or only 1 or 2 attack directions.
What's your point by stating that the best thrust damage any 2h can get is only as good as the worst thrust damage of the Poleaxes? What's the point in stating it has better damage when using the polearm animation, when it would have less effective range than the poleaxe? Generally, you trade range for damage, or range for speed, seems logical to me that it would be so.
You can't really call a 92 speed, 38c swing damage a "weapon that specializes in the thrust". It has a good thrust yeah, but that doesn't mean it's an "extreme thrusting weapon". That definition are for weapons that have a good stab and crappy swings or only 1 or 2 attack directions.Specializes by comparison to any other 2h weapon. Directly compare the German to the Danish, you're trading off swing damage for thrust damage. SoW/Claymore to German, same thing. The only reason that one would ever chose a German Greatsword, is because they want to utilize the thrust to its maximum potential. Otherwise you'd clearly have several other options to chose from. It really makes perfect sense to me.
But I agree we shouldn't make global changes based on the extreme cases. But since the German is a sword that outreaches a lot of stab-focused polearms and deal almost the same damage, there's something really wrong. Same goes for most of the 2handers with a stab. Why grab a spear when you can get high damage swings and a longer stab when all you lose is a bit of stab damage?
I point out that the best thrust damage any 2h can get is as good as the worst thrust damage a poleaxe have mainly because the 2h stab has longer reach and usually hit the head while also being faster.
Finally, last I checked from a link cmp pasted in irc, polearms are pretty damn well balanced with each other, with the most popular polearm (outside of lances), being below 5%. So there's no reason to think that they're bad or that no one is using them. Furthermore, there is only one thread about poleaxe balance in the first 5 pages(I didn't bother going further) of the balance discussion section, and it's about "Internal Poleaxe Balance" Nothing suggesting they are on a whole, inferior items.
Don't think it's going to get reverted any time soon, but I do know that it's getting changed/cleaned up, quite a bit.
Well, one big issue here: You're talking about NA, I'm talking about EU. I really can't remember when I last saw a poleaxe on EU1, the biggest server.
You don't have cav lancers who carry a poleaxe as a backup weapon? Long bardiche's damage and length kicks so much ass, and it costs under 7k...
You're not taking into account all of the versatility that polearms have (they're by far the most versatile weapon type), compared to two-handers, which have the least versatility of all of the melee weapon types.Lawl, 2h have spears: Greatswords, polearm/2h: swords, 1h's: Low tier swords 'n' morningstar, best dueling weapons ingame: Danish/German, spamming weapons with insane speed: Katana, blunt damage that isn't unbalanced: Goedendag, Light always overheadable crushthrough weapons: Maul/Mallet, unbalanced axes: 2h axes, unbalanced piercing axes usable with shield and on horseback: Morningstar, shares greatest cut ingame with the great long bardiche, besides the bardiche having an unbalanced tag they're very similar, and a slightly more damaging 1 slot steel staff: Mace.
I was long enough 2h and it was so easyEvery class is easy if you know how to master it.
Being a shielder isn't easy because of ghosting through shield. Also you're easy prey to cav (hoplite hybridization can fix this). If you want to be damaging you'll be slow, if you want to be fast you'll glance on plate armor. Footwork is the most important thing and I have to admit that my footwork skills aren't up to the task.Ghosting through the shield is only really an issue at higher pings, or if you face the tip of a long weapon vs a close range enemy when blocking, rather than facing the player (this happens with manual blocking too). Everything else is true, though.
r u kidding? 2h stab glances a shitonvisitors can't see pics , please register or login