cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Stud_Muffin on April 05, 2011, 04:38:54 am
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Yes, I know there were a ton of archery nerf posts but I'm not talking about a nerf, you can read that again if you have to so it gets lodged in your brain while you read this. Yes I'm one of those who think archery is massively OP, but not because of the damage, no because of the accuracy. OK so now I spurred your hate towards me and I'll probably get -1337 awesomebar because of the people who read that and forgot to read the rest.
I think that the nerf from the patch was compltely unneeded, the damage and speed nerfs where plain stupid. And since upkeep was implemented because of "historical accuracy" I think the damage and speed should be brought back to normalbecause of "historical accuracy", But (yes I know everyone hates buts) I think the accuracy needs a nerf, what brytenwalda did was perfect, their archery was hard to get to even if you were a hardcore archer but not impossible.
All I'm suggusting it bring the damage and speed back to how it was pre-patch and nerf the bow accuracy by only about 10.
Yes I'm prepared for the huge - on my awesomebar but hey, I'm EPIC!!!
Alrighty since I know that all the troll will see this board and say: BLARG TEHEHAHAHE I IZ GoNnA TrOlLoLoLoL THaT BOrd OVa THAR and archer will go: fuc that fucin' bitch of a fucing fucas mother, So I won't exept very many worth-while answers and I am prepared for this too.
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Hmm, have you played an archer, yes or no, and how far?
Interesting points though, but I will respond later in full after seeing how many people post amusing over-the-top responses.
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Hmm, have you played an archer, yes or no, and how far?
Interesting points though, but I will respond later in full after seeing how many people post amusing over-the-top responses.
I played an archer to level 21 but got tired of it's massive easy and OPness.
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I played an archer to level 21 but got tired of it's massive easy and OPness.
Right, then I shall take you seriously, and commend you for actually playing a class/mechanic before complaining about it.
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Accuracy? Have you mixed up archery and xbows or throwers???
Maybe my view is a bit distorted since I have to deal with high ping (>200) which makes it even harder, but there is nothing like "accuracy" in current archery, unless you have triple-heirloomed your bow and have around 160 WPF. (my last build was reasonably accurate at level 29/30 with a bit over 160 WPF and masterwork warbow)
right now I have a moderate strength build, hits hard (so I "just" need 2-3 arrows for armored targets...), but any hit beyond 30 meters is a lucky shot... (and when I say this, it means something - while there are much better archers out there, I am not that bad, and usually know how to hit moving targets, one-shoot a lot of ponies, etc... )
The "useless archers" (to quote the usual melee smartass with a lack of tactical thinking...) are def underpowered right now compared to "realistic" effects (longbows could one-hit plate at 100 yards...), and that's ok - otherwise the melee-pussies in their dreamworld of one-hit victims would whine even more.
Only thing needed is a speed bump (arrow speed, not shooting speed). That is in the best interest of all, incl. melee, since it reduces the likelyhood of teamshots. Right now the arrows crawl through the air, and you simply can't predict who will run into it during the 5 seconds that it needs to reach its target...
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I have a level 22 archer, only have about 100 prof and my accuracy is fine, sure I can't snipe people in the face from across the map but I can still hit whoever I really want to hit except really really really rare occasions where my arrow just decide to shoot in a 90 angle from where I'm aiming and hit a teammate beside me.
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The "useless archers" (to quote the usual melee smartass with a lack of tactical thinking...) are def underpowered right now compared to "realistic" effects (longbows could one-hit plate at 100 yards...), and that's ok - otherwise the melee-pussies in their dreamworld of one-hit victims would whine even more.
I'm not sure what you said there but I think you ment that in RL longbow men could hit people just fine, so I'll answer as if you said that. Now if you read and interpreted my little essay how I ment it to be interpreted you would know that I'm fine accurate archers, if they have to work for it, as longbowmen did. And the time period this was set in is a bit before uber-accurate welsh longbow men.
Only thing needed is a speed bump (arrow speed, not shooting speed). That is in the best interest of all, incl. melee, since it reduces the likelyhood of teamshots. Right now the arrows crawl through the air, and you simply can't predict who will run into it during the 5 seconds that it needs to reach its target...
I'm talking about balancing archery, not giving it a huge buff. Let everyone else who reads this that if you wish to make a suggustion on what should be done about archery please give a suggustion on how BALANCE it, not giveing it a huge buff or a huge nerf. Now if you want the rest of my answer you'll have to tell me if you played a melee class and have you got shot at by four archers, and how many hit you.
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Now if you want the rest of my answer you'll have to tell me if you played a melee class and have you got shot at by four archers, and how many hit you.
Zero if at long range, all four if at short. Assuming an aware target. My dedicated polearm/2Her has yet to be hit by an archer he was aware of at range.
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I'm not sure what you said there
More simple:
archery in the game
a) is less accurate than real archery
b) causes less damage
if they have to work for it, as longbowmen did.
"working for it" = training/experience is simulated by WPF in the game. Archery is the only class which needs an insane amount of WPF to become really useful, opposite e.g. to xbows or throwers. So we have to "work for it", by investing all our WPF into archery.
Now if you want the rest of my answer you'll have to tell me if you played a melee class and have you got shot at by four archers, and how many hit you.
Look into my sig - I have a melee char. And of course archers are annoying from that point of view - even if most just wound you a bit because they have PD6 or less... but that's life, and that is what archers/ranged were invented for: annoying, reducing, wounding, delaying helpless melees that are on their way towards the enemy.
You say you do not want a huge nerf but just a bit of balancing, but by suggesting to take off 10 from bow accuracy you DO promote a huge nerf and you can just remove archers from the game - this makes it total BS. What I said: it is balanced. More than that, and even the unrealistic low damage is ok for the sake of game fun.
The only minor improvement for everybody would be a correction to the arrow speed, which would just make things a bit more realistic and less painful for all.
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Look into my sig - I have a melee char. And of course archers are annoying from that point of view - even if most just wound you a bit because they have PD6 or less... but that's life, and that is what archers/ranged were invented for: annoying, reducing, wounding, delaying helpless melees that are on their way towards the enemy.
YES! Exactly! not for killing which is what they do half the map away which I don't mind exept, that it is half the map away, when I can't even see them, and remember, this game is set in the 1400s, I don't remember any super accurate archers then. And I didn't make the thread to argue about my suggustion, argument over, or I might just lock this topic.
EDIT: Did you just say you don't want a damage buff? Thats a first.
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EDIT: Did you just say you don't want a damage buff? Thats a first.
Hmm, not many self-respecting archers want a damage buff. A speed buff would be better and perhaps a damage nerf to balance out the added damage inherent in increasing the speed of arrows. We already do enough damage, I really can not see wanting more. If you want more damage, swap out your Strongbow for a Warbow and up your PD by one or three points (Or become a shotgun against cav and tin cans, and go close in support with a PD10 build).
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And I didn't make the thread to argue about my suggustion, argument over, or I might just lock this topic.
Hey, this is a forum - you make a suggestion and make it in the open - expect other people to have a different opinion and comment your suggestions... ;-) Nothing personal, and if I may sound a bit harsh sometimes, please consider English is not my first language.
About the game being set in the 1400s: well, I am all FOR a realistic medieval combat simulation, but unfortunately M&B is not, and c-rpg even less. So unless all the Flamberge-weilding little anime-agi-girls, ninjas and thrower machineguns are gone, lets get not toooo deep into historical accuracy.
But on a sidenote: at that time archers usually were deployed in dozens or hundreds and rained down on an area rather than aiming at specific targets. But that is not the kind of battle and scale of battle we are playing here, and there are no battlelines and tactics either... Our battles and sieges are fought by small bands of specialists - and there were famous marksman and archers that could shoot your right ball off in the old times (not just Robin Hood...lol), just as there are now on our servers... :)
EDIT: Did you just say you don't want a damage buff? Thats a first.
As Tears already mentioned, this is quite common among serious archers. As a new player you indeed get frustrated: shooting a medium-armor target 6 times with your Nomad bow and the bastard still lives... lolwtfgtfo.... Then you either learn to take a weaker bow and high agi/proficiency and go for headshots and people in cloth, or you get the warbow and blast them.
I took me some time to find out how the weird game mechanics work, but having a triple-heirloomed warbow now and shooting bodkins with high PD (currently 10, next gen going dead-slow but heavy PD12 for the lulz...) I am quite content with the damage I deal.
Only thing in archery that needs a damage buff is the longbow - the poor thing is totally useless right now as we all know - and not the kind of high-power, medium accuracy, very slow, LONG-distance weapon for specialists that it should be.
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More simple:
archery in the game
a) is less accurate than real archery
b) causes less damage
It is not less accurate for shooting at the maximum rate, especially for the high load bows. It is less accurate given enough aiming time. At the same time targets (aka players) in the game do not move like real humans and cannot crouch, bend or cower behind cover/shield.
Bows cause less damage because... wait, how many hits does a real arrow does to a person? do headshots do x2 more hits in real life? is the *real* damage soak factor of the helmet against piercing weapons 0.3? hits have nothing to do with reality. This is an entirely game feature and no tweaking of damage values will make it any more real.
If you insist on realism, a head shot against a good metal helmet will likely do nothing more than a "ching!" sound as the arrow glance off the curved helmet. Arrows will not penetrate a helmet and the probability to hit the visor or directly the face is small. Yet in the game, every hit is a full damage headshot.
Bottom line,
When it comes to accuracy and damage, there is no realism, only game balance.
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Increase damage (don't know what pre-patch was), increase arrow speed, take away the crosshair - job done :wink:
This also applies to xbow and throwers.
(yes, I know, there is sticky tape and so on ...)
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I like it how it is, it feels like the most balanced it's ever been as a build itself, the only problem I see is the actual number of archers, but that isn't to do with the build itself it's to do with the players, just like xbows and throwing. We get ranged spam not because a class is OP, but because players want to use ranged weapons.
Plus accuracy nerf for archers would nerf HA even further and I would not have much fun on my HA alt anymore :lol:.
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Damage pre-patch was like 24pierce for strongbow and 27pierce for warbow. With only PD6 tincans died with 2-3 shots. A bit OP it was don´t you think?
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Prepatch archery was seriously plain shit.
I was like PD 7 archer with 60 body armor and pretty much perfect sniper accuracy.I didn't enjoy it cause it was so obviously OP that it didn't really make fun.
Now archery is nice challenging ..even tho the pd 13 archers are annoying :rolleyes:
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Now archery is nice challenging ..even tho the pd 13 archers are annoying :rolleyes:
hehe, me just PD 10, totally unannoying :mrgreen:
But hey - those siege ballistae with PD >10 can't hit shit if you are a bit farther away or are moving/dodging. Just too little accuracy. Of course they can blow you off a ladder from 10 meters - thats what they are made for and only shields will help against that - a little remainder of realism.. :)
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Archery as I have said time and time again doesn't need any changes other than an increase in arrow speed and for the longbow an increase to 50 speed. As said by people here, that will decrease the number of allies shot since most archers tend to hold off if their allies are moving irratically in melee (and I hate the people who don't because they give us a bad name!) and if they have a higher chance to hit an ally and they don't trust their skills.
I read your first post so please don't go mental at me but it did seem like you wanted to reduce archery.
Archery, I have to say, despite being completely out done these days by crossbowmen and throwers (in accuracy, speed and damage, only the longbow has a range advantage but thats taken away by the poor accuracy!)
So, again I re-posted my thoughts in another thread about the same old stuff...
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As a level 27 first-gen archer, I completely agree with those who believe that archery speed needs to be upped. I'm fairly well-off with a bow, and I'm pumping just about every one of my spare skill points into a conversion for strength so I can get my powerdraw to delicious numbers. I can admit to not making my every shot a headshot, but that doesn't matter when every shot feels like it struck that soft spot on a warhammer-carrying man's skull. My agility is at 15 and I find that's precisely where it should be. I run fast enough to make medium-heavily armoured melee soldiers pant and curse behind me and I have enough weapon proficiency to then later turn those very same melees into porcupines once they turn their backs to me, metaphorical tails between their legs, and go off to search for more carelessly caught archers.
There needs to be no buff to damage. At all. What's the point of upping a weapon's damage when a shot to the head will scramble all but the m... actually, I'm pretty sure it'll scramble all brains, regardless of armor. That and power draw. Wonderful, wonderful power draw. What the bow does need, however, is better arrow speed. For two reasons, one: though any skilled archers can measure distance and trajectory well enough to hit mobile targets, sometimes the targeting calculations take a bit too long to make; two: why are archers playing dodgeball with other archers? Seriously? I shouldn't be able to glance at another archer to see that he's targeting me and have enough time to move away as the fucking arrow is in flight. I should have to duck for cover as soon as I see the other bastard drawing his bow (which I do anyway) and pray to the gods that there isn't another one of his buddies targeting me from that odd angle outside the ramparts.
That's all I have to say. Thank you for listening.
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As a level 27 first-gen archer, I completely agree with those who believe that archery speed needs to be upped. I'm fairly well-off with a bow, and I'm pumping just about every one of my spare skill points into a conversion for strength so I can get my powerdraw to delicious numbers. I can admit to not making my every shot a headshot, but that doesn't matter when every shot feels like it struck that soft spot on a warhammer-carrying man's skull. My agility is at 15 and I find that's precisely where it should be. I run fast enough to make medium-heavily armoured melee soldiers pant and curse behind me and I have enough weapon proficiency to then later turn those very same melees into porcupines once they turn their backs to me, metaphorical tails between their legs, and go off to search for more carelessly caught archers.
There needs to be no buff to damage. At all. What's the point of upping a weapon's damage when a shot to the head will scramble all but the m... actually, I'm pretty sure it'll scramble all brains, regardless of armor. That and power draw. Wonderful, wonderful power draw. What the bow does need, however, is better arrow speed. For two reasons, one: though any skilled archers can measure distance and trajectory well enough to hit mobile targets, sometimes the targeting calculations take a bit too long to make; two: why are archers playing dodgeball with other archers? Seriously? I shouldn't be able to glance at another archer to see that he's targeting me and have enough time to move away as the fucking arrow is in flight. I should have to duck for cover as soon as I see the other bastard drawing his bow (which I do anyway) and pray to the gods that there isn't another one of his buddies targeting me from that odd angle outside the ramparts.
That's all I have to say. Thank you for listening.
+1, archer duels are really lame at this point. Literally can stop shooting and just move while watching the arrow in flight to get out of its way. If you shoot back, same thing. My biggest peeve post-patch is how between wpf nerf, accuracy nerf, and shoot speed nerf the ability to track targets has mostly disappeared. If you hold the bow steady in aiming for more than a half-second the reticules starting going wide at an increasingly exponential rate, hell get rid of the reticules, don't really need them, but as it is those wide reticules make your shot go screwy and weird angles from your aimed shot and makes accuracy a joke. If anyone has ever gone bow hunting, realize just how silly this is especially for dedicated archers converting 14 points just to max out archery skills and crippling melee fighting ability. It makes it a pew-pew shooting (draw speed makes it a lame camping class) class where held shots don't make sense, great for people who like the continual shooting of a battle server, but kind of lame when youa re defending acastle and trying to track a moving target. Can handle all the nerfs just allow archers to hold the shots for more than a second so they can plan a lead shot that now needs to be 3-4 seconds ahead of where the target currently is.
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+1, archer duels are really lame at this point. Literally can stop shooting and just move while watching the arrow in flight to get out of its way. If you shoot back, same thing. My biggest peeve post-patch is how between wpf nerf, accuracy nerf, and shoot speed nerf the ability to track targets has mostly disappeared. If you hold the bow steady in aiming for more than a half-second the reticules starting going wide at an increasingly exponential rate, hell get rid of the reticules, don't really need them, but as it is those wide reticules make your shot go screwy and weird angles from your aimed shot and makes accuracy a joke. If anyone has ever gone bow hunting, realize just how silly this is especially for dedicated archers converting 14 points just to max out archery skills and crippling melee fighting ability. It makes it a pew-pew shooting (draw speed makes it a lame camping class) class where held shots don't make sense, great for people who like the continual shooting of a battle server, but kind of lame when youa re defending acastle and trying to track a moving target. Can handle all the nerfs just allow archers to hold the shots for more than a second so they can plan a lead shot that now needs to be 3-4 seconds ahead of where the target currently is.
Having a high PD helps keep your reticule small for a longer period of time. I actually like this trade-off: be a 'siege archer' and you have iffy accuracy due to low wpf, but you can 'hold' the shot slightly longer to allow for better tracking. Be a more traditional archer and you get much better accuracy, but you can only hold it for a short time.
My first stab at archer I went 24 str and 15 agi so I had 8 PD and ~148 or something wpf, which I enjoyed a great deal. My next gen I'm considering going more agi-heavy and see if I can transition to greater accuracy (hopefully for headshots) at the expense of really needing to plan my shots and movement as early as possible.
So basically I like how there can be two very different types of archers based on skill build that serve different roles in battles, and I don't think that needs to change much.
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I wanted to write a long essay about how archery and all ranged weapons were plain OP because of their... ranged nature, no matter how accurate or damage dealing they are, but'll skip to the most important part, as I lack the time :
NERF RANGED.
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I wanted to write a long essay about how archery and all ranged weapons were plain OP because of their... ranged nature, no matter how accurate or damage dealing they are, but'll skip to the most important part, as I lack the time :
NERF RANGED.
No >:c
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I really think archery is balanced at this point. I think the only problems are the other two ranged weapons.
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Archery is fine.
Throwing is the issue. The fact that they can have 6 throwing lances generally means 5 kills, guaranteed; if they miss, they can simply pick them up. The only way to lose a throwing lance is to kill someone with it. Throwing lances aren't even the only issue: You can jump entirely too fast between melee mode and throwing mode so that you're never vulnerable whatsoever, and you have extreme viability in melee range and unmatched viability medium range plus a shield. It's absolutely absurd.
Also, it's not so much that archers are OP, it's the sheer numbers of archers. I've already typed out a tldr post on it, but basically critical mass, once achieved, is OP. Archery isn't OP, it's the fact that the numbers of archers scale exponentially better than melee ever will due to spacing, proximity requirements and effective range.
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I don't play as an archer but I find it quite balanced as a melee fighter. I can dodge it at long range, take significant damage from it at short range, and it seems to deal quite well with horses. What I have heard from archers about is that it's not balanced within its own class. E.g. the longbow isn't nearly as worthwhile as it should be, and different kinds of arrows should have different kinds of effects.
Just tossing these out there because I don't know any better, but how do archers feel about:
1) different kinds of arrows doing different kinds of damage. E.g. high cut damage arrows for shooting horses/light armour and medium pierce damage arrows for tin cans
2) a longbow that shoots quite far and fairly accurately but is slow to reload (like the sniper xbow?)
3) an alt-attack for some bows to use them as light wooden staffs for blocking
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1) different kinds of arrows doing different kinds of damage. E.g. high cut damage arrows for shooting horses/light armour and medium pierce damage arrows for tin cans
2) a longbow that shoots quite far and fairly accurately but is slow to reload (like the sniper xbow?)
3) an alt-attack for some bows to use them as light wooden staffs for blocking
1) From what i have been able to gather on these forums the damage type of arrows doesnt matter, the damage type is selected by the bow not arrows.
2) It already shoots quite far and accurate and it is definitely slow to reload. Its just that the way archery works at the moment means that a long range shot does a lot less damage to the point where it doesnt seem to be worth it.
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Archery is fine.
Throwing is the issue. The fact that they can have 6 throwing lances generally means 5 kills, guaranteed; if they miss, they can simply pick them up. The only way to lose a throwing lance is to kill someone with it. Throwing lances aren't even the only issue: You can jump entirely too fast between melee mode and throwing mode so that you're never vulnerable whatsoever, and you have extreme viability in melee range and unmatched viability medium range plus a shield. It's absolutely absurd.
Also, it's not so much that archers are OP, it's the sheer numbers of archers. I've already typed out a tldr post on it, but basically critical mass, once achieved, is OP. Archery isn't OP, it's the fact that the numbers of archers scale exponentially better than melee ever will due to spacing, proximity requirements and effective range.
this kid dosnt know anything about throwing, he dosnt even know how the game works....
The only way to lose a throwing lance is to kill someone with it? ummm no, sheild eat lances, ladders eat lances.. and doors... play the game more maybe and you will learn.
You can jump entirely too fast between melee mode and throwing mode? its the same as hiting someone and swinging at them again, seems to be fair to me, also throwing weapons are shitty weapon for melee combat
also this is a bow thread, i say buff bows, or at lest the long bow
i say put it to 27p, with out the crazy wpf that we use to have it wont be op
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Now archery is nice challenging ..even tho the pd 13 archers are annoying :rolleyes:
PD beyond 10 does nothing, and without the WPF from WM, the reticule is as big as your screen, soooo.......