cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Silveredge on July 14, 2012, 06:26:45 am
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First off, let me start by saying that I am and have been a Crossbowman for quite some time. In my opinion the crossbow user is a much better ranged unit then the an archer in most aspects. They are far superior once they are forced into melee. My character can stand toe to toe vs. any pure melee character and have a good chance of killing them with no clear disadvantage. However if you compare that to any archer, they have a serious disadvantage because of the points needed for Power Draw. The only real benefit an archer gets with the bow is the speed with which they can loose arrows. My crossbowman can wear more armor, have more power strike, run just as fast, and be a very effective at ranged as well as melee combat. I believe the reason for this is way too much flexibility with the class compared to Bowman and Throwers.
The crossbow is too useful with no wpf spent in it. Being a 1 slot weapon this is very attractive to any melee character who has money and is frustrated with "all the ranged out there". They equip the crossbow on top of their 2 slot polearm/greatsword with 1 stack of bolts and they too can be ranged. The problem is that if you pretend the crossbow is accurate, more often then not, the bolt does fly in the middle of the huge crosshairs, hitting its target. When anyone can throw a crossbow on their character and be a semi useful at ranged without spending any wpf it presents everyone with the ability to turn the game into a huge Range fest. More and more we see rounds being dragged out by ranged classes, everyone has to wait and wait to get back into playing the game. Nobody enjoys that part of the game. Why not do something about it? This brings me to my suggestion.
ALL Crossbows and Bows need to be 2 slots.
The benefit would be:
xbow cav would have 1 less stack of bolts
Crossbowmen would be more balanced vs. pure melee builds since they can't run around with the best 2 slot weapons in the game anymore.
Archers would lose 1 stack of arrows
Ranged units would not just shoot at anything that moves no matter what range it is away, they would actually make shots count. If they really wanted to, they still have the 0 slot weapons, but overall ranged ammo would be lowered. I believe throwers being limited was a step in the right direction, but this would balance out the game a lot more. I really like the idea of ranged needing to actually take the time to aim and be good at their class. Not just shoot at the mass of enemies until they get a headshot. It also encourages them not to sit on yonder mountain, shooting until the end of the round without hitting anything and still having plenty of ammo to delay while all the spectators facepalm until the time runs out.
The best part of this would be that the effectiveness of the actual ranged weapons remain the same, there is no nerf to damage. Instead the overall ranged spam would be toned down, players will concentrate on making those shots, sticking with their melee brethren, and be an actual effective support unit. We would have much less of "ALWAYS TAKE THE SHOT, IM ALWAYS PEW PEWING WITHOUT REALLY AIMING". Pure melee classes will not all walk around with a crossbow just because they can. I believe it would be a better game for it.
I know that there will be people very opposed to this, but please take the time to think when you really care about how many shots you have left. Pretty rare in my opinion, and I typically run around with 14 shots. Crossbow(1 in the chamber), 1 stack of +3 bolts(13 bolts), and a 2h sword. If I want to I switch to the Mace and have 2 stacks of bolts. I can shoot the entire round from start to finish with 2 stacks of bolts. With the change there is still the 0 slot 1h hammer for this option, but the class could not waltz around with any weapon they please as their secondary.
EDIT: On top of it all, with the upcoming wpf update, it would be more of a welcome change if players get the wpf respec alongside this.
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Good points, but I think archers are understated a bit. A pure archer setup is much cheaper than a melee/crossbow hybrid. Archers also have the advantage of not having to find cover to reload, and in open maps this is a massive benefit (seen this in Strat a lot with crossbow-heavy teams that get mowed down). For the less accurate players, archers have the ability to fire immediately, making up for misses.
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Posting in a veiled "boost cav" thread.
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Good points, but I think archers are understated a bit. A pure archer setup is much cheaper than a melee/crossbow hybrid. Archers also have the advantage of not having to find cover to reload, and in open maps this is a massive benefit (seen this in Strat a lot with crossbow-heavy teams that get mowed down). For the less accurate players, archers have the ability to fire immediately, making up for misses.
Exactly what I stated above. ^^
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Were you Archer before? I only see 2 bad points for Archers in this thread:
1) 1 quiver only if you take a 1 slot melee weapon, even with Horn Bow
2) a 0 slot weapon if 2 quivers
Most people would tend to the second option and ignore any melee skill. I'd do the same.
1 quiver wouldn't mean Archers wouldnt just "pew pew".
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I cannot think of any good points of this idea.
Ok, maybe vanilla crossbow which is a solid weapon becoming 2 slot. Maybe.
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Archers beat xbow at range, the only disadvantage the archer has is in melee combat as you stated. But this balances it out. Archer > xbow @ range, xbow > archer @ melee. Take Aderyn for example, he's always near the top of the scoreboard with a decent k/d, his arrows are like throwing lances in relation to the damage he does. He kills most people before they even get to him (not needing to melee), usually killing people in 1-2 shots... and you want to make the hunting xbow & light xbow 2 slots? no thanks, they are weak and not heavy so making them 2 slots isn't needed. It takes more than 1-2 shots to kill someone with the light xbow unless you got a headshot or they were wounded or a peasant. You say you can get away with no wpf in xbow and still be good? The accuracy is shite with 1 point, you'd be lucky if you hit your target. Therefore it'd be a waste of money carrying one around. This implementation would also mean you'd have to be a 1h or mace user to use an xbow or bow, this is ludicrous. Being a hybrid makes this game less boring. Therefore I conclude with saying, this limitation isn't needed.
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Take Aderyn for example
MW rus bow, MW bodkins and you're comparing it to an unloomed light xbow or hunting xbow.
MW light xbow with MW steel bolts does nuts amounts of damage while needing almost no skill points.
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But they still can't be fired on the run, and are still much shorter ranged weapons due to bolt speed which is in comparison much slower then arrow speed, for low end crossbows.
As for the "no requirement", it would be nice if they could be changed to:
(a) require wpf
(b) have their damage modified by wpf, with naturally lower damage with 0 wpf
Then investing something (even if it's WM points, it is points) to be able to use one would be required. However, it is worth noting that current crossbows without wpf aren't really accurate. Sure, you might hit something at short range, but since you can't really fire on the run, unless you're playing as a crossbowman you will only get a few shots off.
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But they still can't be fired on the run, and are still much shorter ranged weapons due to bolt speed which is in comparison much slower then arrow speed, for low end crossbows.
bolt speed is faster than arrows, xbows can shoot at further range easier due to the faster projectile speed which in comparison is much faster than arrow speed for everything, the HUNTING XBOW projectiles travel 2 faster than the unloomed longbow.
True story.
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bolt speed is faster than arrows
Arrow speed is modified by PD.
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Arrow speed is modified by PD.
So... With 9 pd and a longbow you still wont have the projectile speed of a normal crossbow, probably barely even a light xbow. lol
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I don't for certain know how big the speed bonus per level of PD; if it is 14% (like damage), then easily all bows outdo every crossbow but arbalest when it comes to arrow speed.
However, it's quite obvious that all bows in hands of non-peasant archers have better arrow speeds then hunting/light/normal crossbow.
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Some things I can agree with. Many things not.
Changing all bows/xbows to 2 slots really wouldn't effect me cuz i use arbalest. But i think items like the hunting xbow and short bow should stay 1 slot. I do think the normal Crossbow and the Yumi should both be changed to 2 slots.
Yeah i agree we should get a respec along with the wpf update.
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I made a similar post earlier. Glad someone else sees what to me is obvious.
Making all crossbows 2slot would resolve alot of the problems.
I always use the 2slot Rusbow, so maybe I am abit biased.
Making all the bows 2slot im not sure, archery has all these nonsensical limitations put on it. So should remove them atleast before messing with the bowslots.
One other problem aswell is the fact that its very cheap to use a 1slot crossbow with bolts.
The arrows break very frequently, no decreased breakchance by wpf, and for bodkins this is huge.
I make no gold when I use Rusbow + 2 stacks of bodkins.
Bolts on the other hand cost close to nothing.
The whole hunting crossbow and bolts cost less than one stack of bodkins.
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most of you people only post about the benefits of yourself.. you do not actually think of the balance of the game... how in the hell would this balance the game other than people trying to force chadz into making another stupid nerf.. do you realize there are threads to literally nerf everything? its pathetic.. just leave the shit alone and stop posting
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Maybe its easier to spot these issues when you see them day after day?
It is a real issue.. not some made up lobbying.
All these posts with nothing to say that just spread anger and retardation faul the forum with their stench.(You know who you are)
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Good points, but I think archers are understated a bit. A pure archer setup is much cheaper than a melee/crossbow hybrid.
Woot ? Our arrows break every 2 rounds, and as a pure archer you have two stacks of them.
On the contrary, a melee/xbow hybrid has 100 wpf in his two weapons, so nearly as much break chance as the bow.
Also, being able to efficiently use a melee weapon, means you can pick one up on the ground, starting with just a nordic sword, for example. This is a big advantage.
As a pure archer and 0 PS, i often have the time to shoot my 40 arrows, pick up and shoot others, then fetch a beautiful 2h weapon, and die glancing.
Archers are excellent when cooperating with one another, and versus cavs.
In all other aspect, xbow is superios. Even in no-cover maps, you can find a willing shielder to cover you, and when the xbow reload, he can view around him, so no tunnel-vision, and he's lower, so less hit chance.
Finally, you can dodge arrows. You can't dodge bolts. You can feint them, but you don't have the time to see them and change effectively your trajectory, unlike against arrows.
TO OP :
You realize there's already 2 slots bow and xbow. Making all other range weapon 2 slots, without buffing them in any way, is definitely an overall buff for the "old" 2 slots. Or a nerf for the others. That's not balanced.
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It is balanced. There are pro's and con's to every crossbow and bow. In the original game and in the original cRPG there were no slots. I use a crossbow instead of the Arbalest for the sole fact that the shot on the crossbow is instant giving me dependable accuracy for headshots, the crosshairs are smaller, I can reload and shoot infinitely faster which means I can get a shot off before they close the gap in places an arbalest could not, and a headshot does more than enough damage. Lesser bows shoot faster and still do good damage, while upper tier bows shoot slower and do more damage. When you have two archers trying to kill each other, it's always easier in general for the one with the faster bow. As you can be ready to shoot faster then the other bowman and always time your shot according to where he is in his draw. Just because the bow is a one slot or a two slot does not buff the weapon directly, it just gives you more or less ammo. Basing your decision on what bow to use solely on the slots is not realistic imho. And that's what the change is about, ammo.
Saying that really low tier bows/xbows should be 1 slot is not a good answer in my opinion. If only a couple are made 2 slots then it would not accomplish the purpose of reducing ranged spam. Everyone would just use a light crossbow, or everyone would use a horn bow, etc. We're trying to balance out the ranged spam, not justify why a low damage weapon that is still physically huge should be 1 slot. The slots were implemented so that there would not be a person carrying around a pike, an arbalest, a stack of bolts, and a great long maul. If you look at how much crossbows weigh, and the physical size of bows (with their quiver and sheath), I think they all justify a 2 slot weapon.
EDIT: Rohypnol is xbow cav, he is part of a group that is called "SemenStorm", they are xbow cav that love trolling and delaying the round for everyone. Ironic about the "only post about the benefits to yourself" when I am a crossbowman and he's an xbow cav... Draw your own conclusions.
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Easily drawing it. You want to limit range spam ?
Why go to so much length as making every range weapon 2 slots ?
Just MAX the amount of quivers. MAX 2 on one character.
So :
horn bow + 2 quivers + 1 slot for decent melee weapon
Rusbow+ 2 quivers + 0 slot for hammer
crossbow + 2 steel bolts + 1 slot for melee weapon on horseback or not...
No more : horn bow + 3 quivers on horseback.
Etc...
Thing is, range is kinda balance in itself. Rusbow is not overpowered compared to the Hornbow, even though it's 2 slots and the hornbow is only 1. You want to change ammo spam, fine. But don't break internal balance in one class.
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If this is about HX, then it would help if they added a skill for xbows similar to PD. And tbh, I think HX and HA are the only classes that would be affected by this suggestion.
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Easily drawing it. You want to limit range spam ?
Why go to so much length as making every range weapon 2 slots ?
Just MAX the amount of quivers. MAX 2 on one character.
So :
horn bow + 2 quivers + 1 slot for decent melee weapon
Rusbow+ 2 quivers + 0 slot for hammer
crossbow + 2 steel bolts + 1 slot for melee weapon on horseback or not...
No more : horn bow + 3 quivers on horseback.
Etc...
Thing is, range is kinda balance in itself. Rusbow is not overpowered compared to the Hornbow, even though it's 2 slots and the hornbow is only 1. You want to change ammo spam, fine. But don't break internal balance in one class.
I really like this idea, max for ammo is 2 slots.
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If this is about HX, then it would help if they added a skill for xbows similar to PD. And tbh, I think HX and HA are the only classes that would be affected by this suggestion.
They would just use 0 slot melee weapons instead of 1 slot melee weapons and as result would come into melee range less often.
It would make more sense that all ranged weapons are 1 slot then all 2 slots. Then every ranged class could have a decent weapon, instead of blocking with a hammer and running away to shoot.
If greatswords + ranged are a problem, then make greatswords, but only greatswords, 3 slots.
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imo the solution to ranged is just to make a full ranged setup cost as much as a heavy cav setup, so you're losing money unless you're nonstop rolling x5. this way there are less of them and the ones that are present are less annoying. also make ranged item weight cost ~5x against wpf
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with good gear as arbalester, i mean armor, good gloves, some 1h or 1h with 0 slot buckler and with arbalest you also lose money until you have good long x5, so your money stay at same amount. And look on servers - many players are with shields and high str builds with good armor, so ranged dont do much dmg. All in all my personal opinion is- ranged (archery and xbow) is underpowered right now or maybe balanced, but im sure it is not op.
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If too many people are using crossbows as a backup weapon still then do the following:
Nerf:
All crossbows have damaged reduced by 33%
New Skill - Athletics
Precise Shot: +14% Crossbow damage
Result: At Precise Shot 4, crossbow damage becomes marginally higher than it is now ( I believe). At Precise shot 7 (which is what most Arbalest users have) damage is at 132% of the current damage.
This would serve to buff dedicated crossbow users, which at the moment I believe they need. It would also nerf melee fighters who take a crossbow just for a bit of ranged firepower. It would also nerf HX as they would have to sacrifice other skills to bring their crossbow damage back up to par.
It would also mean that dedicated crossbowmen wouldn't be able to have excellent melee skill too.
Any thoughts?
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buff xbow damage
lol are you crazy? This will totally fucked the game hard and everyone will just go xbow, because if you have a very high Precise Shot skill you can 1 shot anyone even tincan, and yes all heavy horses go down in 2 arbalest shot, how nice is that?
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lol are you crazy? This will totally fucked the game hard and everyone will just go xbow, because if you have a very high Precise Shot skill you can 1 shot anyone even tincan, and yes all heavy horses go down in 2 arbalest shot, how nice is that?
all armored horses need min 3 shots, usually arbalest users have only 13 bolts with.
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Why would you use anything other than an arbalest or a light xbow(HX) if all the xbows were 2 slot? They need to be nerfed, but I don't think this is the way to do it.
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Crossbow as a ranged class is not OP.
If greatswords + regular crossbow is the problem, then make greatswords take 3 slots. So people who want the best melee weapons can't use ranged weapons (except only one slot worth of throwing junk at most).
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The crossbow is too useful with no wpf spent in it. Being a 1 slot weapon this is very attractive to any melee character who has money and is frustrated with "all the ranged out there". They equip the crossbow on top of their 2 slot polearm/greatsword with 1 stack of bolts and they too can be ranged. The problem is that if you pretend the crossbow is accurate, more often then not, the bolt does fly in the middle of the huge crosshairs, hitting its target.
Well you stated the problem here. I've heard this statement before. Seems to me the "fix" isn't a buff/nerf in some other area. If the Dev's could figure out why the xbow tends to shoot in the center even with a 4 inch CoF, that should be adjusted. These should be like avg numbers for it to shoot in the center.
1 wpf - 1% in the center
50 wpf - 25% in the center
100 wpf - 50% in the center
125 wpf - 70% in the center
150 wpf - 80% in the center
170 wpf - 90% in the center
190 wpf - 98% in the center
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Well you stated the problem here. I've heard this statement before. Seems to me the "fix" isn't a buff/nerf in some other area. If the Dev's could figure out why the xbow tends to shoot in the center even with a 4 inch CoF, that should be adjusted. These should be like avg numbers for it to shoot in the center.
1 wpf - 1% in the center
50 wpf - 25% in the center
100 wpf - 50% in the center
125 wpf - 70% in the center
150 wpf - 80% in the center
170 wpf - 90% in the center
190 wpf - 98% in the center
Agreed. I also don't think a buff or nerf is necessary. Just fix the problem. WPF seemed to matter to me with the crossbow, but didn't make a HUGE difference. I think they should try to make it more WPF dependent like archery is.
Also they should require power draw or some similar skill for crossbows, and I think that would also help even the playing field a little more.
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I'd like to continue using my Tatar bow with two stacks of arrows and a mace.
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I can't agree. Making all bows\xbows 2 slot would remove the option to use a shield and a decent weapon - 2 less builds. And this would also make archers rely more on 0 slot weapons, meaning more kiters, and I think we want archers to be more melee capable(something the devs don't seem to understand).
The best solution to ballance these classes and their different builds would be for the game to allow only 1 stack of arrows per person, somehow, slightly increasing the number of arrows. Every archer would be able to carry a decent weapon then and all would be mindful of their shots.
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Make all ranged weapons 2 slot? Archery and Xbow? No. What would be the sense of it? To have less hybrids? Make all 1h weapons and shields 2 slot so a Shielder cannot go throwing. Make all throwing weapons 2 slots because they have multiple weapons (ammo).
Dont like the idea? Me neither because its bullshit.
This just another "nerf everything" QQ thread. Instead of always nerfing until we all have to play peasants with cudgels (which is great) try to enhance something else to give different options to counter ranged.
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Crossbow as a ranged class is not OP.
If greatswords + regular crossbow is the problem, then make greatswords take 3 slots. So people who want the best melee weapons can't use ranged weapons (except only one slot worth of throwing junk at most).
I rather like this idea. The really upper tier polearms and 2Hers should be 3 slot. Especially for weapons like the glaive and greatswords, they're already beastly killing machines by themselves, and on top of that they have 2 free slots? I call OP. This would also give more purpose to the mid-tier weapons, which currently kind of sit in limbo.
Something else that I think would help the issue would be to increase the slot count of all ranged weapons, BUT make the amount of ammunition they get be based on the weapon and type of quiver equipped, not the number of quivers they equip. Then, make all quivers be 0 slot, allow only 1 equipped quiver, and have that decide the type of ammunition, rather than being an actual object itself. This would promote ranged characters to carry a decent (1 slot at least) melee weapon, which could reduce the number of running archers. (Or at least not give them any excuse to run when clearly outmatched)