cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Leshma on July 10, 2012, 03:56:19 pm

Title: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Leshma on July 10, 2012, 03:56:19 pm: I'm sick of seing autoblockers who have been permabanned back in game, playing under new account.

Please find a way to keep those people from cRPG, permanently.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Shadowren on July 10, 2012, 04:03:52 pm: Agreed!
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Tzar on July 10, 2012, 04:04:16 pm: +1
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Torben on July 10, 2012, 04:08:23 pm: I am all for rehabilitation. the game isnt that serious to a lot of kids, who still enjoy it. if they ever autoblocked and wont do it again, on top paying for a new warband copy, I´d say: lesson learned.

I mean, seriously. would you want to permaban this guy: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,34855.0.html
for being naiv?
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Bjord on July 10, 2012, 04:15:35 pm: hello i want access to database so i can lvl faster

ty

bjord
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Tavuk_Bey on July 10, 2012, 04:21:55 pm: Quote from: Torben on July 10, 2012, 04:08:23 pm
I am all for rehabilitation. the game isnt that serious to a lot of kids, who still enjoy it. if they ever autoblocked and wont do it again, on top paying for a new warband copy, I´d say: lesson learned.

I mean, seriously. would you want to permaban this guy: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,34855.0.html
for being naiv?

lol torben are you an elementary school teacher irl?
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Torben on July 10, 2012, 04:23:48 pm: Quote from: Tavuk_Bey on July 10, 2012, 04:21:55 pm
lol torben are you an elementary school teacher irl?

na, irl I spread fear and pain, so I try to do my good deeds on this forum ; )
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Paul on July 10, 2012, 04:33:12 pm: No, if they are willing to buy a fresh copy of the game, they get a new chance, starting from zero. I'm not a fan of this wild west hang em higher justice. It's just a game. People fuck up. Losing everything and having to start from the scratch is enough punishment imo. IP-ban is for hardcore cases like Odinvalhalla or Panos (in a week). That's my opinion, dunno how cmp or chadz think about it but I haven't seen them speaking in favour of hillbilly justice either.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: chadz on July 10, 2012, 04:39:06 pm: Pretty much the same from my side. It might be different if we wouldn't have leveling and stuff, but here you have to start from scratch. How often do you think it's fun to restart before you give up using cheats that don't make you any better?
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Molly on July 10, 2012, 05:23:24 pm: Quote from: Paul on July 10, 2012, 04:33:12 pm
No, if they are willing to buy a fresh copy of the game, they get a new chance, starting from zero. I'm not a fan of this wild west hang em higher justice. It's just a game. People fuck up. Losing everything and having to start from the scratch is enough punishment imo. IP-ban is for hardcore cases like Odinvalhalla or Panos (in a week). That's my opinion, dunno how cmp or chadz think about it but I haven't seen them speaking in favour of hillbilly justice either.
Just you wait till the mighty demi-god gets unmuted! :rolleyes:
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: cmp on July 10, 2012, 05:26:00 pm: Quote from: Paul on July 10, 2012, 04:33:12 pm
No, if they are willing to buy a fresh copy of the game, they get a new chance, starting from zero. I'm not a fan of this wild west hang em higher justice. It's just a game. People fuck up. Losing everything and having to start from the scratch is enough punishment imo. IP-ban is for hardcore cases like Odinvalhalla or Panos (in a week). That's my opinion, dunno how cmp or chadz think about it but I haven't seen them speaking in favour of hillbilly justice either.

My thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Leshma on July 10, 2012, 06:53:17 pm: Well, since this is a free mod I guess your way of doing things is fine.

But you'll definitely have to change many things if you ever decide to publish your own game.

Then you'll have customers and that's completely different from this.

In most gaming communities hacking means perma and often IP ban. Also in those communities being an asshole won't get you permabanned like in cRPG.

Starting from scratch isn't that hard. I've been banned in a game that is made by korean devs and grind in that game isn't comparable to cRPG at all. Yet I've kept playing (until my 2nd permaban).

Two months of dedicated play is enough to get enough looms to be competetive in cRPG. Compared to 3 months of using autoblocker that is nothing.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: chadz on July 10, 2012, 07:01:30 pm: Quote from: Leshma on July 10, 2012, 06:53:17 pm
But you'll definitely have to change many things if you ever decide to publish your own game.

No?
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: bruce on July 10, 2012, 07:14:09 pm: Whatever happened to OOODIIIINVALLHALLAA or whatever the name was? I was away.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 10, 2012, 07:19:30 pm: I agree with the 3 devs who say that the people having to start over is punishment enough (not to mention we're a pretty small community). The only issue I have is that there are most certainly other hacks that are not as easily detectable, and if they have already shown they lack the integrity to play a game without cheating, I'd assume the likelihood they'll try to get another hack that isn't caught as easy, will be higher than any other person who hasn't been banned for cheating.

Yeah run on sentences!
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Arrowblood on July 10, 2012, 11:51:30 pm: Panos gets IP banned?
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Christo on July 11, 2012, 12:24:17 am: Quote from: Paul on July 10, 2012, 04:33:12 pm
hardcore cases like Odinvalhalla or Panos (in a week)

o.O
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Grumbs on July 11, 2012, 12:57:24 am: Quote from: chadz on July 10, 2012, 04:39:06 pm
Pretty much the same from my side. It might be different if we wouldn't have leveling and stuff, but here you have to start from scratch. How often do you think it's fun to restart before you give up using cheats that don't make you any better?

The problem with this approach is that people can have hacking accounts that they just STF chars on and autoblock for months until the next ban wave hits. Then buy another and same again. You can get warband cheap as chips, to someone who likes hacking the price is not an obstacle.

I think this wishy washy approach to hacking undermines every legit player in the game. The game isn't on its ass so much that it needs to cling onto these types of players, imo
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Leshma on July 11, 2012, 12:58:54 am: That's perfect example for what I was trying to say.

They can IP ban beer because this is a free mod and they are just a group of developers who aren't selling a product.

But if they were a company, beer or anyone IP banned for the similar "reason" could sue their company and would probably win at any court, no matter what kind of EULA he "signed".

I've yet to meet adult and mature person who had problem with beer. He is a troll (positive troll imho) and anything he says to you can be countered or ignored. Only kids cry when beer "molests" them.

About court thing, I'm aware that suing company for banning your character sounds silly but it's a lot less silly than any excuse you can make for IP banning beer. Mature people value their time, because time is money, even time spent on gaming. So it's not just a video game like Paul says.

On the other hand, any reason you give us for banning beer will make no sense and eventually it all comes to:

We will do it because we want to and because we can.

And that's fine if we take into account nature of cRPG and your status as developers of free mod.

But if you were a company which is selling product for money, you can't do anything you want without a valid reason. There are laws which protect the customers from bad companies.

Somehow I have feeling that if you read this, you'll post another trollish no. But that won't change the fact, something majority of people who play this mod already realised, that none of you guys isn't capable of running succesful business, at least not in a way you're doing it here. I still wish you luck, because you're very talented developers who have that "something" and are capable of making a good game :)
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: chadz on July 11, 2012, 07:02:37 am: Going offtopic much? You have no arguments, so you're creating straw man.

This was about us not IP banning cheaters.
Then you said we can't continue not banning people.
Then I disagreed.
Suddenly, you turn it into us IP banning a troll.
Which has never happened.
Then you say we can't do that.
What we haven't even considered because IP bans are the most stupid way to solve this.
Then you say we will get in legal trouble for doing so.
Which is both wrong and irrelevant, because we never did and never will.
Then you say some more legal stuff that shows me you have not the slightest clue of law.
Which is ok by me.
Then you say some more stuff that shows me you know as much about business as you do about law.
Which I don't mind either.

But I really don't see anything valid in your post.

First of all, Panos was banned from the forum for trolling and pushing the boundaries too far. The forum is a different entity. You wouldn't pay money for the forum.

Then, there are rules that are stated, and are also common sense. Extensive Trolling / annoying everyone else in a server is reason enough to block you from joining that server. And whats up with your idea of IP bans. What is this, 1998? Seriously, get a grip before you're doing baseless accusations against us.

But I have no doubt you create another made up story to show how stupid we are.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: clown1231 on July 11, 2012, 07:35:31 am: IP bans are silly. They're easy to bypass, since IP addresses are by no means permanent. Not to mention that if this method was still used for enforcement, the smart people would either change their IP or just take their laptop to some place with free wifi and get the wifi IP banned.

CD Key bans aren't effective at all, since it's really easy to get a hold of a new one off Amazon, they consistently sell Warband for 10 bucks digitally. Sure, it's a waste of money to pay for another key if you're just going to use autoblocker or some other mod again, but I honestly don't care if someone just buys a ton of keys.

The best way to deal with autoblockers is to simply temp ban them for a week, telling them to stop using autoblock, then permaban if they use it again. It really irks me when people hack, since it just ruins the game for all. However, dealing this with a level head is the best way to do things. Not that the community is in any shape to do that... But honestly, most of the admins strike me to be mature folks, especially when on the job.

I haven't even seen any autoblockers, but honestly, it somewhat like a shield... If you're not smart enough to bring it up when you need to block, you're dead anyway.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Vibe on July 11, 2012, 07:39:19 am: I have seen way too much cheating in my life to ever be tolerant to cheaters. If it was up to me I'd permaban them in every possible way. Troyicide is a good example of how cheaters hardly ever learn.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Paul on July 11, 2012, 07:53:22 am: Of course ip banning panos was a joke. I'm sure he'll himself into trouble soon because that is his very nature, but he is not on the same power level as odin.

If you would actually read common terms and conditions of online games, you'd find something like this:

Without limiting other remedies, the dönkey may at any time suspend or terminate your dönkey Account and refuse to provide access to our Services if dönkey suspects or determines, in its own discretion, that you may have or there is a significant risk that you have: (i) failed to comply with any provision of these Terms or any policies or Rules established by the dönkey; (ii) engaged in actions relating to or in the course of using our Services that may be illegal or cause liability, harm, embarrassment, harassment, abuse or disruption for you, dönkey Users, the dönkey or any other third parties or our Services; or (iii) infringed the proprietary rights, rights of privacy, or Intellectual Property Rights of any person, including as a repeat infringer. In addition, the dönkey may notify authorities or take any other actions it deems appropriate, without notice to you, in the event of any of the above.

Which means you can be kicked out at any time if the dönkey thinks you deserve it.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: SchokoSchaf on July 11, 2012, 08:07:31 am: Quote from: Leshma on July 11, 2012, 12:58:54 am
Mature people value their time, because time is money, even time spent on gaming. So it's not just a video game like Paul says.
I always love this argument. It basicly suggests you're working 24/7 a week and have to charge yourself for your free time. I love capitalism.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Elio on July 11, 2012, 08:09:33 am: Well, a ban based on IP couldn't work with some ISP like mine (Orange (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_(telecommunications)) France Télécom) using dynamic IPv4, every time my router restart my WAN/internet' IP change.

The only reliable way is to rely on the identity card with the location by tracing route of IP. But it's very restrictive and very cumbersome to manage...
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Nessaj on July 11, 2012, 08:13:45 am: IP-bans are quite useless though, even if someone has a Static IP you change it with a simple call to your ISP's support.

Hardware ID bans are the only way forward :twisted:

However that should be reserved for severe cases or repeat offenders.

Generally speaking I personally (as always) believe in global banning cheaters from all games though -- no second chances when it come to cheating in a game -- and luckily that is the way things are moving forward in the anti-cheating world:

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(http://apbreloaded.gamersfirst.com/2012/05/apb-ban-hammer-time-inside-mole-edition.html)

There's even rumours of BattlEye and PunkBuster working together to share ban lists. That would make me an extremely happy gamer. The only way we're going to ever get rid of cheating in gaming is by enforcing initiatives such as what I've mentioned above, you cheat in BF3? Well wave goodbye to every single gaming account you have. Now that's fair, that's justice, how things should be. Imagine what a much more nice gaming culture we'd have. One step closer to Utopia.

(click to show/hide)
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IMO there's no difference whether you cheat (Aimbot/Wallhack) in game A or B, if you cheat you're a cheater and you should be banned from all games, not just the one you cheated in. That would make every single cheater think twice about doing the act, when there's a chance of losing the games you actually like and not those you just want to troll around in with cheating to ruin others fun evenings. Suddenly we're talking a few hundred Euro worth of games instead of a 5 sale. People would learn that cheating has actual consequences.

Obviously though, there is a difference in what sort of cheats work for different genres of gaming, I would compare auto-block to wall hack, since blocking doesn't make you good at feints or attack timing, BUT the cheater doesn't only ruin game-play time for the persons he fights but also creates a butterfly effect that possibly affects a multitude of people both in-game and outside the game.

Quote from: SchokoSchaf on July 11, 2012, 08:07:31 am
I always love this argument. It basicly suggests you're working 24/7 a week and have to charge yourself for your free time. I love capitalism.

I work 24/7, so does millions of other people -- especially those in the technology sector -- I don't appreciate that when I finally have time to play that it gets ruined by cheaters, not that an autoblocker ruins it for the whole server in MNB though, there's more variables to it than that, but some people have scarce time and they truly have their evenings, mood or plans ruined by cheaters. That is unacceptable.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Andswaru on July 11, 2012, 08:22:56 am: If you found using auto blocker or another cheater you should at least face a timeout of 3months via ip ban if possible (excluding cases were existing 2 copies household exist) in cases hardcore enough to warrant account termination.
Then after 3 months they should be given the chance to rejoin as a reabilitated charater if they so wish.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Elio on July 11, 2012, 08:25:56 am: A good way to avoid a massive come back of banned cheaters would be to force newcomers (new CD key) to play during 1 month with a penalty, by forcing them to play on only one server (for beginners) with for example : lvl cap, gold cap, peasant outfit only, with a sticker "kick me" on back... (joke)
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Torben on July 11, 2012, 10:59:06 am: but, but
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo

they dont know what they are doing ^^
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Leshma on July 11, 2012, 11:47:45 am: Quote from: Torben on July 11, 2012, 10:59:06 am
but, but
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo

they dont know what they are doing ^^

Yeah, right. Every wave certain number of their friends (CamelScreamers in this case) were permabanned for the same thing and they still keep doing it. They perfectly know what they are doing, kids or not.

Funny thing is that most of them make archer chars on their new accounts and start giving headshots like experienced archers. Rarely they choose shielder class. The more I'm witnessing this phenomena the more I think there's something fishy about archery, some cheat devs aren't aware of.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Vibe on July 11, 2012, 11:58:03 am: Quote from: Leshma on July 11, 2012, 11:47:45 am
Funny thing is that most of them make archer chars on their new accounts and start giving headshots like experienced archers. Rarely they choose shielder class. The more I'm witnessing this phenomena the more I think there's something fishy about archery, some cheat devs aren't aware of.

tell me, how could an aimbot predict human movement
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: cmp on July 11, 2012, 12:01:35 pm: Quote from: Vibe on July 11, 2012, 11:58:03 am
tell me, how could an aimbot predict human movement

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Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Tydeus on July 11, 2012, 03:22:26 pm: I can't believe so many people support this sort of "Zero Tolerance", "Zero Forgiveness" policy. You could get drunk, find and install a cheat in 5 minutes, use it for 10, then potentially get screwed forever all because of a single 15 minute period. And somehow, that's called Justice? Better yet, you should be banned in every game you play because of that one mistake?

If this is "Justice", if it's what's "Right", I'd gladly forsake all administrative/leadership responsibilities for the rest of my life. Clearly, there would be something wrong with my head.

Forget things like compassion, forgiveness and tolerance; my gaming time is far too important to ever have to suffer even a ten minute interruption.

I hope you're trolling Cooties, because I face-palmed and it would be unjust for me to have otherwise done so.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Leshma on July 11, 2012, 03:48:18 pm: Well, I think that installing the cheat is more than enough for permaban but that's not what I'm talking about.

Player who used autoblocker software for 3 months, then lied cmp is now back in the game just because he bought another key.

I've been playing with that dude on melee only server where he killed 10 people in a row but not me (my fighting style is death to autoblockers). I don't want to see that dude or anyone who did the same as him ever again in cRPG.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Grumbs on July 11, 2012, 03:54:35 pm: Some players just have no respect, either in their spoken attitude, behaviour or spoiling the game for others by using hacks. This is possibly the most lenient place I've ever seen, with repeat offenders coming back no matter what they do with no respect for admins or players. The amount of abuse I see admins have to take and yet the same players keep on playing. I just think theres a lack of backbone and willingness to stick up for the players that want a server were people behave and play by the rules

Anyway I just think people get away with far too much here. Thats the main problem..the attitude towards hacks is a symptom of that
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Dooz on July 11, 2012, 03:58:30 pm: Is there a list of names to keep an eye out for? One that can be linked without my own searches getting into the mix.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Tydeus on July 11, 2012, 04:17:00 pm: Quote from: Leshma on July 11, 2012, 03:48:18 pm
Well, I think that installing the cheat is more than enough for permaban but that's not what I'm talking about.

Player who used autoblocker software for 3 months, then lied cmp is now back in the game just because he bought another key.

I've been playing with that dude on melee only server where he killed 10 people in a row but not me (my fighting style is death to autoblockers). I don't want to see that dude or anyone who did the same as him ever again in cRPG.
Indeed using it extensively, and then lying about it make it more serious. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be given a chance for us to see whether or not he actually learned his lesson. Especially because he lost more than just $5 for the new key, he wasted 3 months of playing where he didn't even invest in getting better at the game.

I can't decide whether you have a "Guilty until proven innocent" mentality, or that it simply offends you to be playing with a former cheater. Both cases are pretty fucked up, regardless. I guess society has no place for convicts after all. Might as well just have death sentences throughout the world.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Grumbs on July 11, 2012, 04:31:58 pm: Don't compare this to real life lol with death penalties and real crime and stuff. Maybe we should make cRPG a democracy? No it will always be a dictatorship as it should be, with a small council and maybe 1 or 2 ultimate leaders. A closer analogy would be someone getting barred from a club after causing 1 fight, disrupting the place for others. Again tho this isn't real life, this is how to deal with people who will look for any little advantage they can get, people who for the very reason of it not affecting them irl will cheat because they don't care about the lenient consequences
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Tydeus on July 11, 2012, 04:49:58 pm: Quote from: Grumbs on July 11, 2012, 04:31:58 pm
Don't compare this to real life lol with death penalties and real crime and stuff. Maybe we should make cRPG a democracy? No it will always be a dictatorship as it should be, with a small council and maybe 1 or 2 ultimate leaders. A closer analogy would be someone getting barred from a club after causing 1 fight, disrupting the place for others. Again tho this isn't real life, this is how to deal with people who will look for any little advantage they can get, people who for the very reason of it not affecting them irl will cheat because they don't care about the lenient consequences
Simply because an action is common place, does not itself justify the action. Instead, all it does is desensitize. Furthermore, your analogy is flawed for two reasons. One, you're talking about actually causing physical harm and second, one exists as a business, while the other is purely a hobby. A better analogy would be comparing someone who disrupts a server's gaming experience to the guy in the movie theater that can't manage to turn his phone off. Can't say I've even -heard- of people being kicked out of a movie theater for that, not to mention, and most importantly, being told he wasn't allowed back. Maybe getting kicked out because of further confrontation (argument/fight between another customer and the perpetrator) that it caused, but not the initial disruptive action.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: justjr on July 11, 2012, 04:52:35 pm: IP block will do nothing, my IP for instance is dynamic, changing all the time...
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Grumbs on July 11, 2012, 04:59:02 pm: I think these analogies don't really serve much purpose. But again the guy with the phone ringing is creating a disturbance in the open and its immediately obvious, and no doing it every day for 3 months would result in you being banned due to complaints. Maybe another analogy (no I won't do anymore lol) would be for the guy with the phone to smear crap on the seats and do it every day for 3 months. Then finally when we find out who did it he is allowed to come back and carry on as long as he pays for a new ticket.

Really though someone who hacked for a long period of time should not be able to come back. I don't even know why I need to discuss this, with admins no less. Any other game and you would be banned for life, not asked to come back with a new ID. It sends out such a bad message
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Tydeus on July 11, 2012, 05:25:44 pm: Quote from: Grumbs on July 11, 2012, 04:59:02 pm
I think these analogies don't really serve much purpose. But again the guy with the phone ringing is creating a disturbance in the open and its immediately obvious. Maybe another analogy (no I won't do anymore lol) would be for the guy with the phone to smear crap on the seats and do it every day for 3 months. Then finally when we find out who did it he is allowed to come back and carry on as long as he pays for a new ticket.

Really though someone who hacked for a long period of time should not be able to come back. I don't even know why I need to discuss this, with admins no less. Any other game and you would be banned for life, not asked to come back with a new ID
I know exactly why this needs discussed, because you are unable to see the differences between the analogies you describe and what happens in crpg. Because you use the same type of argument even when shown that it isn't logical.

Quote
Any other game and you would be banned for life

Quote
Simply because an action is common place, does not itself justify the action.

It does not follow that simply because people are commonly banned permanently for these things, that it is the most just or best course of action to take.

Again, your analogy is completely different. Smearing shit on the seats is not only disruptive to the viewers, but is vandalism and causes direct monetary damage. An auto-blocker does not disrupt the entirety of the server either. The most it could possibly do, is disrupt the gaming experience for the opposing team, and that's assuming he himself killed them all.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Grumbs on July 11, 2012, 05:39:18 pm: I don't think you can comment on analogies when you weighed in with a capitol punishment one first off. Its completely nonsensical to bring this down to analogies with real life stuff, its 2 totally different mediums

With regards autoblock, personally I do care if my team mates are artificially helping my team. I want a fair game were my and my enemies teams actions determine the outcome, not augmented skills on either team

Its not just the autoblock either. Any cheater you catch, especially something long term is an opportunity to remove someone with that cheater mentality. You don't know whatever else they may have used or be willing to use. I don't even know why you give them the time of day. If the game was booming and there were thousands more players I doubt anyone would care about these guys..keeping certain players who fail time and time again to learn to behave (not naming names) is testament to that. Its about keeping the server numbers up, nevermind whether it affects legit players or creates an unpleasant gaming culture
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Tydeus on July 11, 2012, 06:02:50 pm: Quote from: Grumbs on July 11, 2012, 05:39:18 pm
I don't think you can comment on analogies when you weighed in with a capitol punishment one first off. Its completely nonsensical to bring this down to analogies with real life stuff, its 2 totally different mediums

With regards autoblock, personally I do care if my team mates are artificially helping my team. I want a fair game were my and my enemies teams actions determine the outcome, not augmented skills on either team

Its not just the autoblock either. Any cheater you catch, especially something long term is an opportunity to remove someone with that cheater mentality. You don't know whatever else they may have used or be willing to use. I don't even know why you give them the time of day. If the game was booming and there were thousands more players I doubt anyone would care about these guys..keeping certain players who fail time and time again to learn to behave (not naming names) is testament to that. Its about keeping the server numbers up, nevermind whether it affects legit players or creates an unpleasant gaming culture

Except that the analogy was entirely logical? If a society has absolutely no use for a criminal, then as far as that society is concerned, they might as well impose the death penalty upon them, because at least then, they could do no harm. Permanently removing someone from a society is also analogous to the death penalty, as far as the society would be concerned, both have exactly the same effect. Thus, permanently removing someone from a gaming community (a permanent ban) would be analogous to the death penalty.

Holy fucking shit, was that so hard to understand?

Quote
Any cheater you catch, especially something long term is an opportunity to remove someone with that cheater mentality. You don't know whatever else they may have used or be willing to use.

I believe I mentioned this one already as well, it's called Presumption of Innocence.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Grumbs on July 11, 2012, 06:11:20 pm: It doesn't work because you're comparing to real life and real crimes, real deaths. Its like comparing people to chocolate chip cookiees when they can't think of a suitable comparison. In game terms you don't need to "rehabilitate" for certain offences. There is a multitude of factors that impact the way people are treated for crimes irl, in games you only lose your chance to play a computer game.

Anyway, less of the analogies. They just don't apply here

There is no need for a presumption of innocence with cheaters in a computer game. They already made it obvious they can't be trusted and may have got away with anything else.

Just my opinion anyway, don't want to hog the thread. I'll leave it at that for now
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Paul on July 11, 2012, 07:48:16 pm: Godwin strikes again.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Grumbs on July 11, 2012, 07:52:54 pm: Yup, I was comparing the capital punishment analogy to something akin to Godwin's Law. Its just not comparable when we're talking about computer games

But anyway I feel like a spammer in this thread. Leshma talk about IP bans and Panos again
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Michael on July 11, 2012, 08:24:39 pm: A few days ago I joined a server with autoblock on (because it was the only native server with players (thanks chadz for draining all the big ls)).

Guess what, autoblockers are pretty easy to defeat. Push left mouse button and hold it, block their swing with right mouse button (for all of you who have forgotten how to block with all the back-pedaling, dancing and running in circles with your 8+ athletics, right mouse button does the trick), then fingers away from mouse, done. Thats it.
If you fail here, get a weapon with crushthrough, or a horse and lance and press x.
If melee isnt your thing at all, go ranger.

Also, permaban P.anos. There should at least one guy in Southern Europe have time to make some money for Mistress Angela Merkel. Seriously, this guy is more often online than Bjord. Or maybe I just dont know all of Bjords alts. Is that it? Ah wha who cares. Ban Pano.s!
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: cmp on July 11, 2012, 08:27:02 pm: Trying to permaban cheaters and prevent them from getting new accounts is a massive waste of time anyway.
IP bans can be bypassed by a child, hardware bans can be bypassed by anyone who has decent programming knowledge (and nothing stops him from releasing his work so that all scrubs can use it with a double-click).
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 11, 2012, 08:37:20 pm: Quote from: Grumbs on July 11, 2012, 06:11:20 pm
There is no need for a presumption of innocence with cheaters in a computer game. They already made it obvious they can't be trusted and may have got away with anything else.
So, we should execute thieves 'cuss once they get out of jail you're certain they might steal something again?
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Tydeus on July 11, 2012, 08:44:05 pm: So capital punishment, focusing on its function being to remove someone from society (not talking about the moral implications of killing someone or how it is looked upon by religious affiliates or anything of the sort), is without a doubt, identical in functionality to permabanning someone from crpg- or any gaming community. You're simply removing someone from a community in both situations. I have yet to see you even remotely dispute this fact that I have clearly pointed out. This analogy is nothing like what you're asserting, as I have stated several times that the focus is not on the act of killing someone, but on the function as a removal of society. You are the one Godwin is cringing at.

Note: It's probably worth noting that my initial statement was made mockingly, and you blew it completely out of proportion. I should have changed it to being akin to exile, to ensure you wouldn't take it as more than just an analogy. Also, Capital Punishment and Exile are also analogous in exactly the same context as mentioned above, whether or not you can get past the fact that one is about killing.

Furthermore, the fact that this is just a video game, should only serve to benefit the side of leniency. If it's just a video game, and not really a big deal, why does it even matter so much that a guy cheats? Why could you not take the "risk"(Is it REALLY that much of a risk?) of gambling on his sanity to see whether or not he learned his lesson. It's not as if he's a mass murderer and just killed 15 people at a supermarket. What's the worst that could happen? It's just a video game after all.

Repeat offenders are one thing, but this thread isn't only about repeat offenders, and of course, my initial statement was about a guy banned once for autoblocking. Yes, that statement implies that for this situation at least, I do not consider his 3 months of usage more than just one offense. Indeed I believe the duration of the usage should affect the severity of the punishment, but not that it is itself, multiple offenses(or maybe more accurately, that it should only be considered as one offense).
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: betard_lulz on July 11, 2012, 10:56:44 pm: GAMES ARE SRS BSNS
Please everyone talking about permabanning and hardware bs please please please STFU. chEATERS GONNA CHEAT, LEGITS GONNA LEGIT, cryers gonna cry. at the end of the day just trust that the cheaters will eventually be caught and be happy with that.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Nessaj on July 12, 2012, 09:17:41 am: Quote from: Tydeus on July 11, 2012, 03:22:26 pm
I can't believe so many people support this sort of "Zero Tolerance", "Zero Forgiveness" policy. You could get drunk, find and install a cheat in 5 minutes, use it for 10, then potentially get screwed forever all because of a single 15 minute period. And somehow, that's called Justice? Better yet, you should be banned in every game you play because of that one mistake?

If this is "Justice", if it's what's "Right", I'd gladly forsake all administrative/leadership responsibilities for the rest of my life. Clearly, there would be something wrong with my head.

Forget things like compassion, forgiveness and tolerance; my gaming time is far too important to ever have to suffer even a ten minute interruption.

I hope you're trolling Cooties, because I face-palmed and it would be unjust for me to have otherwise done so.

Stop posting such sane things Tydeus, we're trying to whip up a lynch-mob here :wink:

Honestly though without any sort of Right Wing funniness, I am 100% confident that no one here wants to permanently exclude people who just once did a mistake, nor ban them from all games they're involved in. Obviously no one -- I truly hope that despite the casual forum trolling in cheating threads -- would be in favour of punishing small mistakes. What everyone is up in arms about is repeat offenders, those who share their cheats with others and get them to use it, those who make an evening out of cheating and harassing people in various games by organizing such 'events' in their cheat-communities, which happens much more than what everyone think, go check out LiveStream.com and other streaming sites once in a while to see how cheaters glorify themselves in plentiful of games. Those are the ones who should have taken all their games away from them, I wholeheartedly support that.

Everyone in this forum always jumps at one or another extreme, from both sides, even you Tydeus, you took what I wrote and went for the most extreme response, that what I wrote was about punishing this potential poor drunk kid who just once did a mistake and cheated in a game, obviously that is not the case - and that goes for anyone who is serious about more severe punishments for cheaters - in a general sense for overall gaming.

I highly doubt there should (or could) be done more regarding cheating in C-RPG, everything seems quite under control and loads of respect for how the development team handles the whole ordeal, they actually care tons about people despite that they'd never admit to that and that you get the opposite feeling reading their forum posts :rolleyes:

Now stop ruining our right wing fun in the forum :mad:
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: Bjord on July 12, 2012, 08:36:07 pm: Quote from: Nessaj on July 12, 2012, 09:17:41 am
I am 100% confident that no one here wants to permanently exclude people who just once did a mistake, nor ban them from all games they're involved in.

I'm afraid that's at least 99.xx% then. I have zero compassion for people who cheat. I have been angered by people who do it so much when I played big title games like BF2 and MW2/BlackOps that my heart turned into a callous husk.
They will never learn until you cause them so much psychological trauma that the sheer thought of cheating causes them physical pain. A bit of a clockwork orange needed, aye? The ultraviolence and in-out-in-out completely and indefinitely an impossible task. Until you fall out of a window, that is.
Title: Re: IP ban for autoblockers
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on July 12, 2012, 09:34:40 pm: No time for the old in-out, love. I've just come to read the meter.