cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Thomek on July 10, 2012, 02:10:10 am

Title: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Thomek on July 10, 2012, 02:10:10 am
cmp! Please :)

Saw poop get out of hairy situations today chambering with his fist. Well he eventually got killed on the second swing, but he shouldn't.
It just wasn't right.

I thought it would be a cool mechanic to add. It's not that unrealistic that someone would close in and somehow wrench the sword from a combatant, or knock him down.

Let's say you chamber a side swing and the opponent looses his weapon to the ground, if you fist-chamber an overhead or thrust you "pull" him/her to the ground similar to knockdown *maybe add a bit of the cav slide animation? Direct weapon stealing would be a bit too gimmicky in my opinion, but one could always pick up the opponents wep from the ground.

It would make it slightly risky to attack someone unarmed, or one could switch to unarmed combat with a real benefit.

Isn't this what you are looking for to make melee deeper? People falling or loosing their weapons on the battlefield probably happened all the time, so there is also a realism argument here.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Everkistus on July 10, 2012, 06:00:57 am
I like this a lot. Chambering with fists is hard to pull off already, this would actually give it some benefit too.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Rhekimos on July 10, 2012, 06:20:45 am
And get more people running around with no weapons?

No thanks.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on July 10, 2012, 07:24:33 am
I've thought this over, but I can't make a good joke out of it.

I'm thinking of something like "Bruce Lee lived in Medieval Europe and took down trained soldiers with weapons" but I can't make it work.
I'd love to see disarms, but maybe a little more in depth than a simple chamber.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Rhekimos on July 10, 2012, 07:30:39 am
Quote from: Froto_the_Loc on July 10, 2012, 07:24:33 am
I'd love to see disarms, but maybe a little more in depth than a simple chamber.

Like a Quick Time Event? Please, God, no.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: rufio on July 10, 2012, 08:14:09 am
thomek youre mad, they should remove your admin rights and mute you on forum, this post is yet another bit of proof that you are insane and not capable of rational thinking enymore!!! edit*: chambering with fists is not hard to pull off atall , its eazier then chambering with a weap!! it would be more in place to reward chambering a couched lance, you know give the player back full health for his godly achievement! but no just no
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on July 10, 2012, 09:09:11 am
Quote from: Contra on July 10, 2012, 07:30:39 am
Like a Quick Time Event? Please, God, no.
That's all chamber is.
You preform an action according to whats happening on screen.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Rhekimos on July 10, 2012, 10:01:36 am
Quote from: Froto_the_Loc on July 10, 2012, 09:09:11 am
That's all chamber is.
You preform an action according to whats happening on screen.

A Quick Time Event disrupts the usual flow of the game to bring a second mechanic to the front, usually pressing one or more buttons during a cinematic, but it's used during actual gameplay as well.
You can't classify flawlessly integrated parts of the game as Quick Time Events, that's just dishonest, or at best ignorant of what Quick Time Events actually are.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Thomek on July 10, 2012, 10:49:36 am
Quote from: Contra on July 10, 2012, 06:20:45 am
And get more people running around with no weapons?

No thanks.

This is hardly a great problem if you ask me.. We wouldn't have to change the rules for this. It's simply another option we would have in a combat situation. If you think it would be too trolly.. well.. what you think this mod is?

Quote from: rufio on July 10, 2012, 08:14:09 am
thomek youre mad, they should remove your admin rights and mute you on forum, this post is yet another bit of proof that you are insane and not capable of rational thinking enymore!!! edit*: chambering with fists is not hard to pull off atall , its eazier then chambering with a weap!! it would be more in place to reward chambering a couched lance, you know give the player back full health for his godly achievement! but no just no

It's an extremely risky move as it should be Rufio, if you fail, you most probably die. This stuff might be easy in a duel situation, but in battle it's something else. Besides the metagame would quickly adapt, and people wouldn't give an unarmed opponent an easily chamberable attack. Besides you rarely get time to know the opponents ping or playstyle for ez chambers in battle.

Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Vibe on July 10, 2012, 10:52:11 am
Actually, some IF stacked, good loomed armor and decent chambering skills and you can fist chamber like a boss. Would be way too OP in the hands of decent players.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Thomek on July 10, 2012, 10:56:59 am
Yeah in theory.
I'd like to see that in practice vibe. It's not like a fighter without wep and very short range would be a large threat.. And if it was an IF build he would be too slow to dance around like the dagger chambering agi builds I've seen.

If you don't want to get loose your wep, then simply don't side-swing at that person. If you get knocked down, so what? How is that worse than getting clubbed down or bumped by a horse?
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Vibe on July 10, 2012, 11:00:11 am
Quote from: Thomek on July 10, 2012, 10:56:59 am
Yeah in theory.
I'd like to see that in practice vibe. It's not like a fighter without wep and very short range would be a large threat.. And if it was an IF build he would be too slow to dance around like the dagger chambering agi builds I've seen.

You can have 7 IF with 21/18 and that's anything but slow, even in heavy armor. I fist chamber butts of people on my archer alt that has no melee weapon and if every one of them dropped their weapon on the first fist chamber I'd be rolling over melee without a problem.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Rhekimos on July 10, 2012, 11:01:48 am
Quote from: Thomek on July 10, 2012, 10:49:36 am
This is hardly a great problem if you ask me.. We wouldn't have to change the rules for this. It's simply another option we would have in a combat situation. If you think it would be too trolly.. well.. what you think this mod is?

Right, let's add ladderpulting back. Everyone loves trolling after all.

I suppose disarmament on third consecutive fist chamberblock wouldn't be too bad (with the count reset if you take damage). It really shouldn't be something that is easy at all, and certainly not a viable tactic.

Quote from: Thomek on July 10, 2012, 10:49:36 am
Besides ... people wouldn't give an unarmed opponent an easily chamberable attack.

Except for pikers. But everyone hates those. Cav dropping lances with their relatively easily chambered attack would be extremely silly as well.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Miwiw on July 10, 2012, 11:47:59 am
It's Medieval Combat, no one is supposed to fight without a weapon. I would even nerf fist damage, thats just not realistic.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Vibe on July 10, 2012, 11:55:51 am
Quote from: Miwiw99 on July 10, 2012, 11:47:59 am
It's Medieval Combat, no one is supposed to fight without a weapon. I would even nerf fist damage, thats just not realistic.

It's not realistic? So you wouldn't mind at all if I punched you in the face with steel gauntlets?

If you're going to punch someone without head armor with steel gauntlets, it's going to smash his face.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Havoco on July 10, 2012, 12:38:04 pm
I kind of like this. I can see it now, an archer chambers an attack by someone chasing him,and suddenly the archer is chasing the guy with the weapon he disarmed.... Hahahahhahaha
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Rhekimos on July 10, 2012, 12:51:30 pm
Quote from: Havoco on July 10, 2012, 12:38:04 pm
I kind of like this. I can see it now, an archer chambers an attack by someone chasing him,and suddenly the archer is chasing the guy with the weapon he disarmed.... Hahahahhahaha

Cue the Benny Hill music.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Thomek on July 10, 2012, 12:54:56 pm
would be far easier for someone else to disarm the archer with his 0wpf in melee..

Anyway, you guys have probably seen this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDdTB1GzHJw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDdTB1GzHJw)

People fall and grapple each other all the time. This is probably much closer to real medieval combat than what we see in cRPG.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Havoco on July 10, 2012, 12:58:48 pm
Maybe, maybe not. It could go back and forth multiple times. Might need more Benny hill music....
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Rhekimos on July 10, 2012, 01:00:40 pm
Quote from: Thomek on July 10, 2012, 12:54:56 pm
would be far easier for someone else to disarm the archer with his 0wpf in melee..

And so the correct strategy for the archer is to holster the gained melee weapon and keep running.

Perhaps go and hide it and return to shoot at the now impotent melee guy.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Thomek on July 10, 2012, 01:10:12 pm
ok so this is theoretically possible, but in order for it to happen some circumstances needs to be in place:

1. use a swing attack in a predictable manner against an unarmed opponent.. (If he would turn into the swing, feint a bit, hold the swing or use some other trickery, it would be excessively difficult to chamber it.)

2. If he would in stead use a thrust or overhead in an easily chamberable manner, the only consequence would be knockdown.

3. How many players chamber a lot in combat anyway? I can recall 1 and thats Darkfox. Combat chambering is already very risky and difficult, more so doing it unarmed...

4. The attacker can clearly see the opponent is unarmed, and thus could be expecting a chamber. He needs to make his preparations.

5. If besides this, some archer manages to make him drop the weapon, he can just pick it up again, if the archer isn't faster..

6. If someone manages to pull off these kinds of chambers, well.. Kudos. They are good players and get rewarded for being that.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Rhekimos on July 10, 2012, 01:16:19 pm
People haven't learned to chamber because it's a risky activity and you win less than half of an attack with it.

If it was this well rewarded, everyone would train to use it.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: rufio on July 10, 2012, 01:32:51 pm
i chamber stabs shit loads of times, sideswings i must say i dont try that much since yes its risky, but thomek plz stop this you are making a fool of yourself, enybody who would really brainstorm on the outcome of this mechanic would know its rediculous, sorry to notice you have stagnated in your skilllevel of crpg, but like vibe said chambering with fists is to eazy for such a big reward, oh and remember YOU CAN FUCKIN HAVE A SHIELD AND FIST U STUPID TWAT HAHAHAHAHA , ok that was a little mean , but i had to do it
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on July 10, 2012, 05:42:04 pm
I think a small chance of knockdown/disarming would be great, 100% is stupid ofc, but maybe 10-20% would be fine. 
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Strider on July 10, 2012, 06:03:55 pm
I think this would interfere greatly with the idea of realism.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Teeth on July 10, 2012, 06:15:53 pm
I don't think people running around without weapons should be encouraged. Atleast now I am on the few retards who charges the last man standing with his fists even when I'm alone. Chambering with your fists is not really all that hard anyway. Apart from that I really like it, but its just that people going without weapons is not desirable.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 10, 2012, 07:22:58 pm
I 100% agree and think this is an awesome idea.  I was in two naked battles in strategus defending villages (one AI one for a friendly faction) and the first one we lost, the second we won (when we had literally no weapons, I think it was like 200 vs 200 battle). 
Our side grouped up and would isolate one person, and keep trying to chamber with fists as we gang-punched/kicked him to death.  Once we got the first weapon we started getting more, and then eventually about half way through the enemy ran out of weapons, and we started hoarding them on our side of the map.  We eventually went on to win.

Being able to cause a weapon to drop (or even better, you just grab it) or pushing/pulling the person to the ground would be awesome. 
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Sultan Eren on July 10, 2012, 07:49:13 pm
This is the best fucking suggestion of all, Thomek!
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Thomek on July 10, 2012, 08:02:00 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on July 10, 2012, 06:15:53 pm
Apart from that I really like it, but its just that people going without weapons is not desirable.

But we can keep the rule that everyone needs to have a weapon.. :) This is just a trick to pull out of your sleeve in a fight. Especially if someone pulls your weapon out of your hands!
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: _Tak_ on July 10, 2012, 08:02:58 pm
Sometime peasants can chamber my lance with their fists, would be epic to see my horse getting knocked down by this :D
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Rumblood on July 10, 2012, 08:28:24 pm
Quote from: Thomek on July 10, 2012, 12:54:56 pm
would be far easier for someone else to disarm the archer with his 0wpf in melee..

Anyway, you guys have probably seen this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDdTB1GzHJw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDdTB1GzHJw)

People fall and grapple each other all the time. This is probably much closer to real medieval combat than what we see in cRPG.

Yes, but a video game that involves intricate grappling in melee would make more sense as a MMA than Medieval.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Thomek on July 10, 2012, 09:20:22 pm
Its of course an abstraction of grappling. Just like running in crpg is an abstrqction if running in rl. Like blocking is an abstraction of blocking etc
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Rusty_Shacklefjord on July 10, 2012, 09:39:16 pm
I love this idea. cRPG NEEDS grappling and disarms. They're a pretty big part of actual combat and it's a glaring omission. This would be a perfect way to implement them. Of course, it would need to have only a small chance of working or else it would be overpowered, but exactly how small is something that the devs can figure out. With a 5-10% chance of success I can't really see it happening more than once or twice per game, and it's not like pugilists and kung fu masters abound. Even with this ability the overwhelming majority of players would still use a weapon, only resorting to fists in certain circumstances or when they want to screw around.

Besides, if people know that fists can disarm or knock them down they'll be more careful to avoid being chamber-blocked. They might use feints and holds and actually fight seriously instead of just charging in and lopping the poor unarmed guy's head off.

Supported 100%, I loved when devs added damage to heavy punches and I'll love it even more if they add this.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Vengt037 on July 10, 2012, 10:40:29 pm
Quote from: Thomek on July 10, 2012, 02:10:10 am
cmp! Please :)
It's not that unrealistic that someone would close in and somehow wrench the sword from a combatant, or knock him down.

There should be an increased chance of this happening on snowy maps because http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhU6gpyjMHw
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 11, 2012, 12:32:00 am
nice vengt, I don't even remember that scene or quote...guess I need to go and rewatch some older movies :P
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: rufio on July 11, 2012, 01:13:47 am
i have nothing more to say, visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Malaclypse on July 11, 2012, 04:44:27 am
Quote from: SgtTeeh on July 10, 2012, 06:15:53 pm
Chambering with your fists is not really all that hard anyway.

It's really not very different from doing the same with any other weapon, agreed. This is too great of an advantage to give unarmed folks for no apparent reason.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Piok on July 11, 2012, 08:12:59 am
Very nice suggestion from somebody who uses 100+ speed 4directional weapon.
What about people with slow weapons like berdiches or almost all 2directional which are easier to chamber.
Nerf katana instead>>> 
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Rhekimos on July 11, 2012, 10:16:40 am
Quote from: Thomek on July 10, 2012, 08:02:00 pm
But we can keep the rule that everyone needs to have a weapon.. :)

The problem is that making running around with fists this good is implicitly weakening the "NOT OK: Running around without no weapon." rule.

It would be a little like the Department for Road Safety announcing that all cars must be fitted with gigantic spikes on the front bumper. This would create much dissonance in people who think that the point of the rules is to keep the roads more safe. Furthermore it will look like the DfRS has no idea what they actually want and are incompetent. They will lose a lot of credibility.

You could both keep the rule and make fist fighting viable, but then you would also make enforcing the rule very hard as people could just say that they had their weapon stolen. What can the admin do then? Kick anyone who looks guilty?

And rules that can't be enforced aren't really rules at all. The resulting disregard for the rules will weaken all the rest of the rules as well.

As a final result, we will probably get significant numbers of people spawning with a practice dagger, dropping it and going to chamber people out of their weapons. This would make cRPG look more like a weird Shaolin monk training session than medieval warfare. And render Heavy Gauntlets the best weapon in the game.
Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: Thomek on July 11, 2012, 09:00:00 pm
Quote from: Contra on July 11, 2012, 10:16:40 am
(click to show/hide)

Exactly. That's what you think. But I don't think that would become a big problem.

That we should stop an awesome new mechanic just because someone might abuse it..  :rolleyes:

Title: Re: Chamber with fist causes knockdown and/or dropped weapon.
Post by: engurrand on July 11, 2012, 09:54:56 pm
This is the good type of shit i'm talking bout in my grappling thread

+1