cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Digglez on July 06, 2012, 11:15:53 pm

Title: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Digglez on July 06, 2012, 11:15:53 pm
So whats the point of having the alternate damage modes if they do less....far less...far far less damage than normal mode?  I have yet to see a situation (using damage calculator) where the alternate mode would actually be useful.

Could we actually BUFF the pierce damage on them so they might do more damage vs 55+ armor?

Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: TurmoilTom on July 06, 2012, 11:17:42 pm
I've seen dudes use the blunt end of the poleaxe or steel pick to get knockdown, switch the original mode and then hit them while they're down... But I can't imagine it happening all that often. Honestly, I've never really found a decent use for the alt-modes.
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Penitent on July 06, 2012, 11:28:51 pm
It's just there for flavor and variability.  If it improved the weapons too much (by making some weapons too versatile) it would mess with the balance of weapon choices.  So the alt mode has to be slightly inferior to retain proper balance in my view.
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Wraist on July 07, 2012, 04:09:51 am
Quote from: Garison on July 06, 2012, 11:28:51 pm
It's just there for flavor and variability.  If it improved the weapons too much (by making some weapons too versatile) it would mess with the balance of weapon choices.  So the alt mode has to be slightly inferior to retain proper balance in my view.

He's thinking of the warhammer, which does 30ish blunt+kb in normal, or 26 pierce +2speed in alternate. The only two weapons I know of where alt mode might be worth it are the bec and poleaxe [maybe elegant] as it gives a kb chance.

Anywho, I use the alternate mode of the warhammer, and I was thinking of suggesting something similar so...
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Digglez on July 07, 2012, 04:26:57 am
Quote from: Wraist on July 07, 2012, 04:09:51 am
He's thinking of the warhammer, which does 30ish blunt+kb in normal, or 26 pierce +2speed in alternate. The only two weapons I know of where alt mode might be worth it are the bec and poleaxe [maybe elegant] as it gives a kb chance.

Anywho, I use the alternate mode of the warhammer, and I was thinking of suggesting something similar so...

nope, referring to stuff like Broad 1h & Iron War axes, German poleaxe, Military hammer/pick.  Havent used poleaxe yet but I'm sure it falls into same category
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Zerran on July 07, 2012, 08:44:30 am
The military cleaver used to have a decent alt-mode for pierce... then it got removed.  :|
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Patoson on July 07, 2012, 08:51:24 am
The worst is the secondary mode of 2h, which turns them into polearms (WTF) with less than 30c swing damage.
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Ptolemy on July 07, 2012, 08:52:09 am
Protip: If the alt-mode is the better mode, it's no longer the alt-mode, the weapon just defaults to the wrong mode.
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Wraist on July 07, 2012, 08:59:07 am
Quote from: Patoson on July 07, 2012, 08:51:24 am
The worst is the secondary mode of 2h, which turns them into polearms (WTF) with less than 30c swing damage.

However, it deals a lot more pierce damage. When I last checked a MW GGS has 35 pierce in alt mode [several months ago], which [I think] is as much as a Masterwork Awlpike. It's significantly better than some of the others alt modes
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Herr_Thomas on July 07, 2012, 09:20:38 am
Quote from: Wraist on July 07, 2012, 08:59:07 am
However, it deals a lot more pierce damage. When I last checked a MW GGS has 35 pierce in alt mode [several months ago], which [I think] is as much as a Masterwork Awlpike. It's significantly better than some of the others alt modes

I can confirm this, in a tight melee it actually works pretty well, so long as you have someone with you who can keep you from getting spammed since your swings are useless and you lose ~5 speed.
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Zerran on July 07, 2012, 09:24:25 am
Quote from: Ptolemy on July 07, 2012, 08:52:09 am
Protip: If the alt-mode is the better mode, it's no longer the alt-mode, the weapon just defaults to the wrong mode.

It isn't supposed to be better all around, it's supposed to be useful in key situations (for example, a cut weapon changing to pierce to deal with very heavily armored opponents.)

Currently, the damage reduction is so great though that it's never worth it to change to alt mode.
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Leshma on July 07, 2012, 12:05:22 pm
Another good idea.

While polearms have somewhat decent alternate mode and onehanders have solid alternate 2h mode, most twohanded weapons have shitty alternate mode.

I really don't see why, for example, longsword (HBS or bastardsword) don't have same stats in 1h mode like arabian cavalry sword (knightly arming sword).

Also, onehanded weapons which don't have alternate mode should get it. Every onehanded sword or mace can be used twohanded. No reason to insist on such high specialization.
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: XyNox on July 07, 2012, 01:39:54 pm
One of the main problems with this is probably the input command for changing secondary modes. It only changes to sec if you are not mid swing and there is no icon on the hud for it. When mid fight you have to make sure you are not attacking, then look at your stance to find out if sec is active and then you can continue fighting. By that time the surprise effect is long gone.

Pressing x at any time should get the secondary active. If you press it mid swing it should apply for the next swing so you dont have to actively monitor it. Then I would be willing to learn how to use this system to my advantage but as of now its destroying the flow of the fight too much.
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Digglez on July 07, 2012, 02:31:06 pm
Quote from: XyNox on July 07, 2012, 01:39:54 pm
One of the main problems with this is probably the input command for changing secondary modes. It only changes to sec if you are not mid swing and there is no icon on the hud for it. When mid fight you have to make sure you are not attacking, then look at your stance to find out if sec is active and then you can continue fighting. By that time the surprise effect is long gone.

Pressing x at any time should get the secondary active. If you press it mid swing it should apply for the next swing so you dont have to actively monitor it. Then I would be willing to learn how to use this system to my advantage but as of now its destroying the flow of the fight too much.

if you use heirloom pack you can notice a change in the icons in the bottom right of UI.  Go from the color/texture of heirloom back to base when you are in alt mode.  Dunno if it helps with non-heirloom weapons, but its a start.  Would be pretty easy to just inverse the icon for alt mode as well
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Nehvar on July 07, 2012, 07:36:40 pm
I agree.  Some weapons, like the langes, have a decent alt-mode already but most weapons have terrible alt-modes that you would never use.  The alternate mode of a weapon needs to be balanced against the primary mode.  Otherwise, what is the point? 
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 07, 2012, 08:24:01 pm
Quote from: Patoson on July 07, 2012, 08:51:24 am
The worst is the secondary mode of 2h, which turns them into polearms (WTF) with less than 30c swing damage.
Halfswording is pretty good if you know how to use it, my guess is you don't.
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Leshma on July 07, 2012, 08:27:14 pm
The worst is 2H -> 1H. It's a shame, it's the best way to give incentive to twohanders to use shields.
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Jarlek on July 08, 2012, 04:38:16 am
Quote from: Leshma on July 07, 2012, 08:27:14 pm
The worst is 2H -> 1H. It's a shame, it's the best way to give incentive to twohanders to use shields.
That's not secondary mode, that's just using a 2h/pole with a shield. Not the same thing.

Although I do agree that "bastard mode" and "shield&spear mode" should be buffed a bit too, mainly the speed nerf on them.

And I personally find situations for most of the secondary modes. All the ones that change wpf groups are good (1h --> 2h or halfswording), as are the "cut to pierce/blunt" too. Not usually better, but for ambushes, tincans or situations you think you'll have a higher chance to glance, it's sometimes usefull to change. The ones I don't think are that useful are the pierce --> blunt or blunt ---> pierce secondary modes. Most (all?) of them are less damage, so not very useful unless they give a speed bonus or knockdown. Even then, not that useful.

Although we DO have to realize this is SECONDARY mode and should be less usefull than the primary mode in most sitations. Or as Ptolemy put it:
Quote from: Ptolemy on July 07, 2012, 08:52:09 am
Protip: If the alt-mode is the better mode, it's no longer the alt-mode, the weapon just defaults to the wrong mode.
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Ronin on July 08, 2012, 02:02:03 pm
I have said it before, make bastard weapons to be used like a spear (only thrust) when used in bastard mode. Well of course, this should be determined by the player so don't remove anything as bastard weapons are used on horseback with a shield too (morningstar). Let me explain:

The current Longsword:
(click to show/hide)

My suggestion for a Longsword:
(click to show/hide)

Really? Is it that hard to understand?
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Jarlek on July 08, 2012, 02:50:07 pm
Quote from: Kulin_ban on July 08, 2012, 08:48:16 am
The three blunt secondaries that come to my mind are poleaxe, elegant poleaxe and bec, and they all have knockdown on 2ndary mode.
Pickaxe, fighting pick, military pick, steel pick and bec.

Not saying they don't got knockdown, I haven't checked them all. Just pointing them out :P
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Turboflex on July 11, 2012, 08:37:49 pm
For the broad 1h battle axe I think the secondary pierce mode could use +1 or maybe +2 buff cuz right now its too low compared to cut to even scale to be better against super heavy plate goons. I feel like a lot of the 1h weapons with alt modes are the same, stuff like military hammer, warhammer, the pierce mode is just too low to be useful in situations where it could theoretically be (mostly against heavy tincans).
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Rumblood on July 12, 2012, 07:28:42 pm
Quote from: Patoson on July 07, 2012, 08:51:24 am
The worst is the secondary mode of 2h, which turns them into polearms (WTF) with less than 30c swing damage.

I think it used to rear horses, but not certain about that anymore...
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Zerran on July 12, 2012, 07:33:42 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on July 12, 2012, 07:28:42 pm
I think it used to rear horses, but not certain about that anymore...

There was a warband update that made it so weapons have to be above a certain length to rear horses (I think it's like 140 or 150). So.... no they can't anymore.  :|
Title: Re: Buff alternate mode damage
Post by: Herr_Thomas on July 12, 2012, 09:29:42 pm
Quote from: Zerran on July 12, 2012, 07:33:42 pm
There was a warband update that made it so weapons have to be above a certain length to rear horses (I think it's like 140 or 150). So.... no they can't anymore.  :|

Yeah it's 140, the Poleaxe was made to be 141 so it would rear horses.

Now that I think about it the poleaxe is the Jack of all Trades.

Bonus against shields, rears horses, blunt mode...

If only it could be used to deflect arrows...