cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ujio on July 05, 2012, 05:17:58 pm

Title: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Ujio on July 05, 2012, 05:17:58 pm
Who do you think would win? The Former Shogunate or the Red Lotus Clan?
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Kuyamzoleta on July 05, 2012, 05:20:02 pm
me
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Aderyn on July 05, 2012, 05:22:45 pm
shogunate hands down.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Mlekce on July 05, 2012, 05:24:18 pm
Byzantium is ex shogunate? They would rape ur ass.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Ujio on July 05, 2012, 05:24:49 pm
Could you elaborate? I haven't had a chance to see the Red Lotus in action yet?

Yeah Byzantium is ex-Shogunate, but this poll is about them, when they were Shogunate
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Ptolemy on July 05, 2012, 05:31:11 pm
Let's find out.

FIGHT!
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: brianr1989 on July 05, 2012, 05:56:26 pm
I like icecream
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Thovex on July 05, 2012, 06:06:13 pm
excuse me sir

who is red lotus clan?
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Toffi on July 05, 2012, 06:40:27 pm
excuse me sir

who is red lotus clan?

would like to know that too
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Tristan on July 05, 2012, 06:43:20 pm
excuse me sir

who is red lotus clan?

Yo mama?
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on July 05, 2012, 06:52:54 pm
What is this, i don't even..
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Dexxtaa on July 05, 2012, 07:00:33 pm
The old Shogun clan was - in my opinion - a diluted clan. One that commited the same faults that large clans still make. Once a powerful clan with many warriors, people took a liking to the idea of being in one of the "big boy" clans and proceeded to apply en masse. Naturally, the quality of fighter within the clan eventually declined, as the clan became cumbersome under its own weight.

The only options for the clan was to either dissolve - as so many other large clans have done - or reorganize. They chose to reorganize and clean out the roster of warriors they deemed unworthy of bearing the name (MIA and incompetent fighters). They rallied under the new rule, and are now the Empire of the Romans (Basileia ton Romaion).

Red Lotus, led by (I believe) their lord Shogun Kimiko and their flagship fighter (imo) Sengo Muramasa aka Momento Mori are a vastly smaller clan albeit with very concentrated combat potential. They don't have much history beyond having named and blooded fighters from several different clans. Their combat skill, however, is solid albeit lacking the specific teamwork exemplified by other clans (the old Chaos pikers, Cavelier riders, ATS infantry and hoplites). I think that is simply because of the lack of diversity in their combat ranks. They mostly stay to katanas and nodachis, despite traditional Japanese combat (carried out with polearms, specifically naginatas and other hafted weapons).

In a straight up match between the old Shogunate vs Red Lotus: RL will take many Shogunate fighters down, but will eventually fall to combat attrition. If you're looking at mano-a-mano, RL will decimate most of the old Shogunate fighters, but perhaps not its top ranking warriors.

edit: If RL went clan to clan against the Byzantiums (reformed Shogun), they'd get positively steamrolled due to lack of weapon diversity.

edit2: Didn't vote because it's a pointless poll. You should change it to "Which clans dick would you suck" because it's really just a popularity contest, not any real assessment of combat potential. 
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on July 05, 2012, 08:07:24 pm
Before deciding I'd have to be reminded what players were in Shogunate at the time and I'd also have to see Red Lotus in action.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: FrugFrug on July 05, 2012, 08:25:38 pm
excuse me sir

who is red lotus clan?

They are a somewhat small clan on the NA servers.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: dreadnok on July 05, 2012, 08:31:14 pm
Memento mori would wipe all of them out 1 on 1. Rl is tiny tho. And i would also dare to say mori would wipe majority of euro players easily.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Bulzur on July 05, 2012, 08:56:57 pm
Shogunate time ? Hanzo, Jackie, Chase, George the Panzermarine, Hotshot, etc... ?
They'll definitely would have crushed RL, even man to man.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: PhantomZero on July 05, 2012, 09:02:32 pm
Shogunate could never manage to beat LLJK(A shameful display!) so I'm going to have to go with Red Lotus Clan.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Miwiw on July 05, 2012, 09:04:42 pm
Hilarious enough to talk about a clan that doesnt exit anymore. Why dont you take Byzantinum to compare then?
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: ArysOakheart on July 05, 2012, 09:42:46 pm
Memento mori would wipe all of them out 1 on 1. Rl is tiny tho. And i would also dare to say mori would wipe majority of euro players easily.

Mori and Redarrows just to name a few....
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Kan_Tervel on July 05, 2012, 10:19:23 pm
Memento mori would wipe all of them out 1 on 1. Rl is tiny tho. And i would also dare to say mori would wipe majority of euro players easily.
Ahahahaha :lol: :lol: :lol: you're mad  :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on July 05, 2012, 11:00:18 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

very interesting gif of a piece of corn becoming a POPcorn (like pokemons actually) :

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Kafein on July 05, 2012, 11:06:56 pm
who ?
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Rebelyell on July 05, 2012, 11:13:44 pm
shogunate ofc
lol stupid thread
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: FleetFox on July 07, 2012, 11:10:19 am
I miss the Shogunate :(
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Leshma on July 07, 2012, 12:25:59 pm
I don't. Weeaboo my old friends.

By the way, Shogunate squad:

1) Zotte (CraftyBadger) - the best longspear/pike user I've ever seen, always have been
2) Chase - imho the best player in cRPG (most complete player in cRPG)
3) Ujin - one of the best lancer cavs when he was Shogunate_Ujin, scary good with Nodachi
4) Gravoth - another epic spear/pikeman
5) Sonja - excellent spammer who can block very well, scary combo
6) Hanzo - one of the best archers in cRPG
7) Chapman - doesn't play anymore (or changed nick), probably the best Shogunate archer
8) Subotai - HA from hell
9) Jackie - one of the best or maybe the very best horse archer ever, exceptionally skilled player
10) Captain Georges - this man is scary with flamberge and plate

I doubt murrican samurais can touch this.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Zotte on July 07, 2012, 01:37:11 pm
You forgot to add Shogunate_Lobster, master duelist and bane of the Risen Clan.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Ujin on July 07, 2012, 01:43:14 pm
(click to show/hide)
[/color]
Actually , our recruitment policy was never above casual level as we never struggled to become an "elite" clan. We simply had a training program + rank system that motivated some people to get better, the less skilled players were/are still welcome to join and stay, but they always remained at a lower rank. The transformation into Byzantium was simply due to the desire of changing the theme, nothing else to it.

P.S. What a thread. Weeaboo vs Weeeaboo  .  Nostalgia :D.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Plavor on July 07, 2012, 04:02:34 pm
I wished I would have started earlier to play crpg and join the Shogunates :(
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Banok on July 07, 2012, 04:20:10 pm
I really enjoyed my stint in shogunate, but I don't recognise half the names in this thread ;p I went inactive before alot of these other people joined.

Cool thing about shogunate was being one of the best clans, despite the fact they we didn't selectively recruit like mercs and were essentially gimping ourselves in terms of weapons (no turtles).

funny thing is I don't remember chase being very good, either hes improved massively or i'm mixing him up with someone else. If I remember right belmont was probably the best in a duel at the time.

I find it kind of sad they have become a shielder clan but I guess you can only play with the same set of weapons for so long before getting bored (unless you are a ninja!).

PS: nobody remember our imba archer shogunate_ishido? ;p

PSS: dez nuts & georges were the funniest.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Ujio on July 09, 2012, 06:41:28 pm
The old Shogun clan was - in my opinion - a diluted clan. One that commited the same faults that large clans still make. Once a powerful clan with many warriors, people took a liking to the idea of being in one of the "big boy" clans and proceeded to apply en masse. Naturally, the quality of fighter within the clan eventually declined, as the clan became cumbersome under its own weight.

The only options for the clan was to either dissolve - as so many other large clans have done - or reorganize. They chose to reorganize and clean out the roster of warriors they deemed unworthy of bearing the name (MIA and incompetent fighters). They rallied under the new rule, and are now the Empire of the Romans (Basileia ton Romaion).

Red Lotus, led by (I believe) their lord Shogun Kimiko and their flagship fighter (imo) Sengo Muramasa aka Momento Mori are a vastly smaller clan albeit with very concentrated combat potential. They don't have much history beyond having named and blooded fighters from several different clans. Their combat skill, however, is solid albeit lacking the specific teamwork exemplified by other clans (the old Chaos pikers, Cavelier riders, ATS infantry and hoplites). I think that is simply because of the lack of diversity in their combat ranks. They mostly stay to katanas and nodachis, despite traditional Japanese combat (carried out with polearms, specifically naginatas and other hafted weapons).

In a straight up match between the old Shogunate vs Red Lotus: RL will take many Shogunate fighters down, but will eventually fall to combat attrition. If you're looking at mano-a-mano, RL will decimate most of the old Shogunate fighters, but perhaps not its top ranking warriors.

edit: If RL went clan to clan against the Byzantiums (reformed Shogun), they'd get positively steamrolled due to lack of weapon diversity.

edit2: Didn't vote because it's a pointless poll. You should change it to "Which clans dick would you suck" because it's really just a popularity contest, not any real assessment of combat potential. 

Thanks for the detailed explanation, but as for your 2nd edit. I think your taking this a bit too seriously, this poll is just a bit of fun.

Quite frankly I was never a big fan of the Shogunate and I've yet to see the Red Lotus clan in action, so get a grip.

Hilarious enough to talk about a clan that doesnt exit anymore. Why dont you take Byzantinum to compare then?

Same to you Pal, threads just a bit of fun. Take a chill pill

PS: nobody remember our imba archer shogunate_ishido? ;p

I remember Ishido :D Remember seeing you a few times on the Dueling servers

The transformation into Byzantium was simply due to the desire of changing the theme, nothing else to it.

And probably because you were sick of all the hate you were receiving, from being a Japanese clan.


This poll is between a non-existent clan and one that is currently still around. Thought it would've gone without saying that this thread is just for fun, but apparently there are few people out there, who are so anal-retentive, that they had to rage.

And for the record I haven't voted in the Poll
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: [ptx] on July 09, 2012, 06:49:34 pm
words

As a neutral EU player, i'd disagree. Shogunate were pretty meh at around the time they were first created and thus during most of the first strat iteration. Man, they failed miserably in battles, i have fought both for and against them.
But by the end of the first strat iteration, when there were all these tournaments and such going on... they REALLY picked up the slack. I remember fighting against them both on battle and in a few clan wars we had (i was a member of Mercs back then), they were good individually, but their teamwork skill was pretty amazing. IMHO, at least relative to other clans at the time, Shogunate was pretty much at its strongest before it reformed.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Ujio on July 09, 2012, 06:57:22 pm
Cheers, as someone who's fought for and against the Shogunate, it's interesting to hear your thoughts
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Canary on July 09, 2012, 09:59:08 pm
Wellsir, I daresay this fight would have to take place somewhere. I can't attest to the Red Lotus and their skill at playing with EU ping, but I have played with several Shogunate members when they came over to the NA servers, both before and after they changed to Byzantium, and I'll just say this: They could consistently place on the scoreboard despite the ping disadvantage.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Muki on July 09, 2012, 11:29:46 pm
Ninja Clan <<<<<
excuse me sir

who is red lotus clan?

Small NA it was fill with acouple of good players (Mori, Zylorage, etc) through broke abit since their last leader left the clan
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Redarrows on July 10, 2012, 05:10:02 am
ahhh wow funny to just breeze through and find this thread :D warms my heart :D im old school NA samurai, mori too... most of the people in RL clan are... We formed when Kimiko was actually doing hella good and w style as weaboo... fightin most of the vets. So he along with mori formed RL and reached hands to all and only skilled NA samurais... muki, zylorage, mori, kimiko, me, vaynes, trex, etccc just to name some main starters.... out of all good samurai fighters in NA... only probably 2 declined our invitation. And yes Dexx is actually totally right  when he made those observations.  I use to be in shogunate.... it was my very first clan when they just formed also. They have numbers yes... lots of that. thats what NA lacks actually. NA dont have DEDICATED samurais... some will just try.. and leave.. or be in the clan only momentarily and then become a knight or something.... Only good samurais, tend to only stay that way lol. We fought based on solo skills.... basically dex was right, best samurais in all clans... formed under 1 banner... We were originally Invite only skill based. But yes once again..... the same poison kills NA samurai clans... Lack of weaboos. Im still on and on since years, but u can literally count all the samurais NA have with your hands.... good ones anyway. And  yes.. i believe 1on1... RL will victor, only your best will stand the chance. but army to army of course wed lose.... dont get me wrong... were all about the mob fighting and thats our main love... but IF yall know how 2 mob right.... then we cant take all of yall at once... duel till the end of numbers- would be RL. Sadly... we cant ever test this... for a Epic battle... both of us have to be at our best.... ping wise. I would love to be in a clan with high numbers so that it would be so epic killing knights on servers.... But i also love being in a clan thats Skilled only so you wont be confused about us.... RL is dwindling but i figured... We all started as random samurais... and to that we return... But it wont be hard to find which of the samurais u fight on NA... are the ones with skills... From first attack and block... youll know ur not fighting your average joe
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Redarrows on July 10, 2012, 05:14:28 am
actually ujio lookin at your name its super familiar... You might of been the one even recruited ME back ages ago lol... if u remember we had couple conversations before i left. I remember i wanted to lead Shogunate NA... but it was givin to older player Oda. o welllll shoulda let me :D Would of grown in NA
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Korgoth on July 10, 2012, 05:32:16 am
I was actually in the Ninja when Shogunate was around. A lot of the Ninja used to spend a lot of time in the Shogunate channel in TS and play a lot with them. Ninja + Shogunate would of been awesome fighting together.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Havoco on July 10, 2012, 01:04:29 pm
Does namo count as a samurai since he uses a nodachi? Or do u need the full deal?
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: okiN on July 10, 2012, 01:14:14 pm
I don't. Weeaboo my old friends.

By the way, Shogunate squad:

1) Zotte (CraftyBadger) - the best longspear/pike user I've ever seen, always have been
2) Chase - imho the best player in cRPG (most complete player in cRPG)
3) Ujin - one of the best lancer cavs when he was Shogunate_Ujin, scary good with Nodachi
4) Gravoth - another epic spear/pikeman
5) Sonja - excellent spammer who can block very well, scary combo
6) Hanzo - one of the best archers in cRPG
7) Chapman - doesn't play anymore (or changed nick), probably the best Shogunate archer
8) Subotai - HA from hell
9) Jackie - one of the best or maybe the very best horse archer ever, exceptionally skilled player
10) Captain Georges - this man is scary with flamberge and plate

I doubt murrican samurais can touch this.

I generally agree with this. I don't know much about these Lotus fellas, but they don't seem to have much of a profile, whereas anyone who knows anything about EU knows that Shogs had some hard guys. Therefore I figure it stacks up pretty clearly in their favour.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on July 10, 2012, 02:43:25 pm
Quote
Cavelier riders

And there you have it folks.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Gawin on July 10, 2012, 03:06:11 pm
IMO in a dueling contest, Chase would murder every single one of the RL even if he fights in NA
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Turboflex on July 10, 2012, 03:27:24 pm
RL is pretty small clan but Mori is one of top NA 2h swordsmen.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on July 10, 2012, 05:29:16 pm
this thread is turning into a nostalgia thread...

I miss deez nuts, awesome funny guy. "We'd be farming our watermelon patch nigga" :lol:
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Banok on July 10, 2012, 06:34:40 pm
this thread is turning into a nostalgia thread...

I miss deez nuts, awesome funny guy. "We'd be farming our watermelon patch nigga" :lol:

"where the white woman at?"
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Korgoth on July 10, 2012, 07:24:22 pm
RL is pretty small clan but Mori is one of top NA 2h swordsmen.


I think that tells us the quality of NA players.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Teeth on July 10, 2012, 07:39:35 pm
I remember Shogunate being pretty beast in summer 2011, when the clan battle scene was alive and they were always winning or nearly winning. Always able to field a squad of triple A players.

We need to revitalize clan competitivity!
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Oberyn on July 10, 2012, 07:47:13 pm
Didn't Mori use a long hafted blade?
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Ujio on July 10, 2012, 07:58:33 pm
actually ujio lookin at your name its super familiar... You might of been the one even recruited ME back ages ago lol... if u remember we had couple conversations before i left. I remember i wanted to lead Shogunate NA... but it was givin to older player Oda. o welllll shoulda let me :D Would of grown in NA

No I was never a member of Shogunate, you're probably confusing me with Ujin. Happened a couple of times.

Didn't Mori use a long hafted blade?

Yeah I remember seeing a guy in Shogunate with the name Mori, who was often on Horseback with a polearm of some kind, probably Halfted blade.

Didn't Memento Mori used to lead the Mori clan within the Shogunate at one point? Probably the same guy you're referring to
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: okiN on July 10, 2012, 08:20:50 pm
We need to revitalize clan competitivity!

I've actually been thinking of having the Nordmen host a clan tournament for a while now, it's been too long since the Fallen one. Maybe when summer's over, and everyone is back to the daily grind.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 10, 2012, 08:39:54 pm
Shogunate, we had some epic pike combos going back then, barely ever lost (if ever, dont remember  :rolleyes:)! Good times :')
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Auphilia on July 10, 2012, 09:30:07 pm
I'm not familiar with the original Shogunate clan or its members, as I am not from EU and didn't pay attention to clans outside of NA until I started Strategus, but they sound tough. However, this thread seems more like an NA vs EU contest rather than clan vs clan.

During the glory days of RL we were hoping to be able to fight other weaboos competitively. We wanted to wage war with the Ninja but ping would surely decide the victor. We definitely would have fought the old Shogunate if it existed. There can only be one Shogun after all. ;)

As previously mentioned, our original roster included the best of the best NA samurai/ninja, hands down. The only exception was pretty much Zoleta, who remained loyal to TkoV. I'm not sure what type if formations or gear the old Shogunate used but we pretty much just tried to "look like samurai" and play with whatever looks best. We weren't going for all the cost efficient or easy-to-use set ups.

Some of you have been mentioning that this thread is about a living clan vs a dead clan, I'm curious to know which one is the living clan. o.O

As far as matching a large clan vs a small one, there really isn't much to debate there. Of course the bigger one would win, granted they had any skilled players at all.

As far as matching 1 vs 1 man to man, I can not say who would win, but I can say RL would not get steamrolled and in the event of losing, we would definitely have defeated the majority of their players.


More interestingly...

We speak of these two clans fighting each other, and boast about their strengths, but imagine if they were to have joined together.
(click to show/hide)
That would have been a very solid force to be reckoned with and might have been able to work wonders in Strategus.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Lansamur on July 10, 2012, 09:58:34 pm
The old Shogunate clan reorganized themselves to Basilea ton Romaion end of last year, if I remember correctly, so Shogunate is the dead clan, while you are at least somewhat alive.^^

Now, my memories are slightly distortiened and not really complete any more, but having fought on Shogunate side in first Strategus (the very first) several times and even having been allowed to command the infantry part in a 1600v1600 against Druzhina, I can say: They knew their stuff back then. Ujin, being the founder and leader of the clan, was a tactical and strategical mastermind, although not all of the formed plans worked out well in the end, as we simply didn't have the numbers in players as the aforementioned Druzhinas or other East-Block countries. They whooped asses in all of the tournaments they took part in, and won at least 9/10 clanwars, if not all of them (check their clanthread (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,21978.0.html) - Battle-spoiler for their clanwarresults). Simply put, if they could field their topsquad, no clan, no matter NA or EU, would've had a chance against them in a straight 10v10 or 15v15 match. And no, this isn't some asslickery, that's pretty much hard facts. They didn't have the best solo-players overall like others do, but they more than made up for it in teamwork.
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Ujio on July 14, 2012, 08:06:33 pm
More interestingly...

We speak of these two clans fighting each other, and boast about their strengths, but imagine if they were to have joined together.
(click to show/hide)
That would have been a very solid force to be reckoned with and might have been able to work wonders in Strategus.

I think there would have been more than Seven of them though
Nice picture by the way :D

Cheers for the detailed answer Lansamur, that list of Battles in their Clan thread really says a lot.

What happened to their Youtube channel, under "Media" though? Was looking forward to watching some of their Battles
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Michael on July 14, 2012, 10:09:21 pm
Memento mori would wipe all of them out 1 on 1. Rl is tiny tho. And i would also dare to say mori would wipe majority of euro players easily.


Well, one-eyed guy is king of blind people.................its common knowledge that Americans are good in three things:
1) with their mouth aka talk
2) sleeping (alone)
3) eating
Title: Re: Former Shogunate Vs Red Lotus Clan
Post by: Michael on July 14, 2012, 10:20:28 pm
They didn't have the best solo-players overall like others do


Chase is one of the best (if not the best) two-hander I have ever seen,

and this 1h-cav guy on the Sarranid horse (not sure what his name was) is a menace, even for the best lancers.

Jackie has a really small penis, but he continously improved his combat skill and is now a player who can handle all classes very well.

So in addition to what you said, they have top solo players, and the rest of them obviously understands to back them up.