cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 02, 2012, 02:21:31 pm

Title: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 02, 2012, 02:21:31 pm
Fatigue meaning as a random chance for shield to drop after series of hits.

Also it would be fair only to be added for shielders, because shield has an autoblock, rest of the classes are manual.

I think this game has too easy system for shielders, it is just turtle, turtle, turtle, turtle, swing, turtle, turtle, turtle, turtle, swing and so on, so i came up with an idea. Fatigue for shielders, so they can only block certain amount of swings, before their arm gets tired, depending on a) shield skill, b) shield weight, c) str and weapon weight of the attacker, d) shielders str.

Please devs, add a random chance for shield dropdown!

What do you think?

After so many retards showing up i make this clear, i do not want swords to break shield, but to have a small chance of shield dropdown for any weapon. Also if the comment you are about to write has nothing to do with this suggestion, don't post.

Also Mala had a very nice point, holding an attack and feinting should also have fatigue.

If not this, atleast remove the ability to spinshield, i mean how can you block 4 attacks from different directions just by turning around, not even in sync..
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Rhygar666 on July 02, 2012, 02:34:39 pm
same then for polearms and 2hands, you can only swing 2 or 3 times till you tire out,
fairness over everything else.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: rustyspoon on July 02, 2012, 02:36:53 pm
I think this game has too easy system for shielders, it is just turtle, turtle, turtle, turtle, swing, turtle, turtle, turtle, turtle, swing and so on, so i came up with an idea. Shield breakers for shielders, so they can only block certain amount of swings, before their shield gets broken, depending on a) shield skill, b) shield body armor, c) shield hit points.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Bjord on July 02, 2012, 02:39:30 pm
No.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 02, 2012, 02:43:30 pm
I think this game has too easy system for shielders, it is just turtle, turtle, turtle, turtle, swing, turtle, turtle, turtle, turtle, swing and so on, so i came up with an idea. Shield breakers for shielders, so they can only block certain amount of swings, before their shield gets broken, depending on a) shield skill, b) shield body armor, c) shield hit points.

What do you think?

I don't think everyone wants to run around with an axe or morningstar. :)

Too much easymode with shields... Str is meaningless if it doesn't even help you drop down some skinny guys shield.

+ Shields have forcefield already, i think tht is a big bonus, just turn around and block everything!

Oh yeah and forgot, they also block arrows, even when not shielding!
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Memento_Mori on July 02, 2012, 02:54:24 pm
I don't think everyone wants to run around with an axe or morningstar. :)

Too much easymode with shields... Str is meaningless if it doesn't even help you drop down some skinny guys shield.

If you don't run around with a shield breaker it will take you a long time to break a shield.... Problem?

Fatigue for blocking with a shield but not for blocking with 2h/1h/pole is incredibly illogical & would make using a shield relatively pointless except against ranged.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 02, 2012, 02:56:43 pm
If you don't run around with a shield breaker it will take you a long time to break a shield.... Problem?

Fatigue for blocking with a shield but not for blocking with 2h/1h/pole is incredibly illogical & would make using a shield relatively pointless except against ranged.

How come? If you are very strong, like 2h and pole usually are, it is no problem.

I mean most of the shields are heavier than weapons...

And why has the shieldbreaker have to be only way?

This would make the game more interesting, people just can't count on their arm to last. This would even make shield vs shield battle watchable! :)
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: bruce on July 02, 2012, 02:58:37 pm
Just make greatswords crush through shields, and have polestagger / shield bonus / are throwable / block projectiles / rear horses / can be swung from horseback / can be couched from horseback / can be fired from a crossbow / require less upkeep / give you 50 armour rating when worn with Kuyak.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: bruce on July 02, 2012, 03:01:52 pm
And why has the shieldbreaker have to be only way?

You have an advantage over shieldbreaking weapons when you use longer, nastier, faster non-shieldbreaking weapons. In return, they get to smash shields.

Alternatively, use a maul.

I mean this would help all classes, EVEN SHIELD VS SHIELD!!

Deserves Gnjuspalm.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 02, 2012, 03:05:25 pm
Just tell me, why should shield be uber strong last forever without hitting it with an axe??

Any of you guys couldn't even keep shield up for 2 swings.

BREAKING THE SHIELD is not the only way, ofc you can drop enemys shield with powerful strikes..
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: bruce on July 02, 2012, 03:07:44 pm
Just tell me, why should shield be uber strong last forever without hitting it with an axe??

Why should shieldbreaking weapons exist if they are weaker then greatswords but are not better at fighting shielders?
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 02, 2012, 03:09:24 pm
You are not looking at the whole point, you are just picking up sentences and make them look what you want to, childish.

And this is not about breaking shields, it is about shield dropdown.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: bruce on July 02, 2012, 03:11:50 pm
The problem is that you want your greatsword to be an effective weapon vs shielders too, which is just unbalanced.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Tot. on July 02, 2012, 03:15:19 pm
 :lol:
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 02, 2012, 03:15:23 pm
I wasn't talking about it constantly dropping, but having a small chance for shield to drop, it is totally different than breaking the shield or making greatswords op.

And keep in mind that this would affect all of the weapons, not just greatswords.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Mala on July 02, 2012, 03:16:47 pm
I think this game has too easy system for shielders, it is just turtle, turtle, turtle, turtle, swing, turtle, turtle, turtle, turtle, swing and so on, so i came up with an idea. Fatigue for shielders, so they can only block certain amount of swings, before their arm gets tired, depending on a) shield skill, b) shield weight, c) str and weapon weight of the attacker, d) shielders str.

What do you think?

K, and for feinting and holding an attack as well.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 02, 2012, 03:17:45 pm
same then for polearms and 2hands, you can only swing 2 or 3 times till you tire out,
fairness over everything else.

Now this is totally different. Swinging to an item what other is holding is alot easier, than the ones part who is holding the item being bashed.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 02, 2012, 03:18:53 pm
K, and for feinting and holding an attack as well.

Yes this also, very good point!
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: rustyspoon on July 02, 2012, 03:20:15 pm
Also, I think at the start of the battle all shielders should automatically commit suicide for the shame of carrying a shield instead of using a 2hander like A REAL MAN.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 02, 2012, 03:22:18 pm
Also, I think at the start of the battle all shielders should automatically commit suicide for the shame of carrying a shield instead of using a 2hander like A REAL MAN.

Again more retarded people, can't even discuss, cuz it is not the way they want it. :)

This is suggestion corner and i can post any idea that i come up with. If you want to trashtalk, make a thread in the spam section!
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on July 02, 2012, 03:27:12 pm
Buff cudgel
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: rustyspoon on July 02, 2012, 03:27:45 pm
Again more retarded people, can't even discuss, cuz it is not the way they want it. :)

No, we're mocking your ridiculous idea.

The thing with shields is 95% of the people who use them are terrible and easy to beat. You could probably count the number of good NA shielders on 1 hand.

There are also many ways to counter them already. You could:



Not to mention that if it's not a steel shield or a huscarl, a str build can bust through a shield pretty quick with a sword.

Why do they need another pointless mechanic to counter them?
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 02, 2012, 03:29:13 pm
No, we're mocking your ridiculous idea.

The thing with shields is 95% of the people who use them are terrible and easy to beat. You could probably count the number of good NA shielders on 1 hand.

There are also many ways to counter them already. You could:

  • Get a shield breaker. They are only 2 slots. Easy to carry.
  • Just circle them. They are slow as hell while carrying a shield.
  • Get a heavy weapon and shield stun them.
  • Get a crushthrough weapon.
  • Just use a held attack. Because they have a shield, shielders telegraph their attacks.
  • Kick them.
  • Hilt slash. Lot easier to do with a 2hander than a 1hander.


Not to mention that if it's not a steel shield or a huscarl, a str build can bust through a shield pretty quick with a sword.

Why do they need another pointless mechanic to counter them?

Haven't you already noticed, this is suggestion corner, they are looking for new ideas here..

Geez stop posting here retard or read what i have said earlier.

I am not asking for old already discovered methods, but to bring in a new totally different one with a random chance in it, since life after all is an continuous event of random happenings.

Maybe you should spent your time better, than watching over the forums, since you clearly can't even read what you are being told.

I don't know about NA, but i wouldn't call too many EU shielder noobs.. :)
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: oohillac on July 02, 2012, 03:32:57 pm
Go play 2h hero somewhere else.  Shields are fine, Rusty makes good points.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: rustyspoon on July 02, 2012, 03:35:49 pm
Haven't you already noticed, this is suggestion corner, they are looking for new ideas here..

Geez stop posting here retard or read what i have said earlier.

I am not asking for old already discovered methods, but to bring in a new totally different one with a random chance in it, since life after all is an continuous event of random happenings.

You're right, it is the suggestions corner. Since it is the suggestions corner, it is open to discussion and counter arguments. Putting up a post here doesn't make you immune to criticism, it invites it.

You're also trying to go with a "realistic" argument that blocking with a shield will tire you faster. You do know that shields are used to deflect attacks, not block them, right? If you're blocking with a shield you're not taking full strength hits on the arm. You move your shield in order to deflect attacks to cause them to glance off the surface. Thereby protecting your arm/hand underneath.

I also don't like fatigue systems in general because they'll just slow down an already slow game. I like to believe that all of the combatants in this game are well-trained and don't get exhausted after fighting for 4 minutes.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 02, 2012, 03:53:46 pm
You're right, it is the suggestions corner. Since it is the suggestions corner, it is open to discussion and counter arguments. Putting up a post here doesn't make you immune to criticism, it invites it.

You're also trying to go with a "realistic" argument that blocking with a shield will tire you faster. You do know that shields are used to deflect attacks, not block them, right? If you're blocking with a shield you're not taking full strength hits on the arm. You move your shield in order to deflect attacks to cause them to glance off the surface. Thereby protecting your arm/hand underneath.

I also don't like fatigue systems in general because they'll just slow down an already slow game. I like to believe that all of the combatants in this game are well-trained and don't get exhausted after fighting for 4 minutes.

As i said before, you couldn't even block/reflect 2 swings with your physical fit. So yes this should be realistic, also as i said before i am looking for new things, not old methods already discoverd and this is what you are only offering.

Most people playing this game are so physically uncabaple, that you couldn't even hold shield up 10secs, do you know why? Cuz that takes hell alot of power.

And no Rusty, playing and watching the forums doesn't grow your physical strength, even if you think that in your mind. Moving the mouse is totally wrong movement for that.

How many old wars you have specced? I know those guys were strong, but not that strong they could keep up shield whole time.

I mean if i can't do it for long, i am 100% certain you can't.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: rustyspoon on July 02, 2012, 04:16:52 pm
As i said before, you couldn't even block/reflect 2 swings with your physical fit. So yes this should be realistic, also as i said before i am looking for new things, not old methods already discoverd and this is what you are only offering.

Most people playing this game are so physically uncabaple, that you couldn't even hold shield up 10secs, do you know why? Cuz that takes hell alot of power.

And no Rusty, playing and watching the forums doesn't grow your physical strength, even if you think that in your mind. Moving the mouse is totally wrong movement for that.

How many old wars you have specced? I know those guys were strong, but not that strong they could keep up shield whole time.

I mean if i can't do it for long, i am 100% certain you can't.

Probably shouldn't be feeding into this delusional thread anymore, but here goes:

SHIELDS WERE NOT THAT HEAVY. In the time period that this game takes place, shields were relatively light. If a shield is too damn heavy, you can't move it around to defend yourself. I have a feeling that you're also one of those people who think that a sword weighs 8 lbs.

No warrior would take something into battle that was too heavy for him to use. He'd just be asking to get killed. Even an incredibly light shield can block a sword all day long.

I don't know where you get this crazy idea that people were carrying around shields that were too heavy for them to lift.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Fuma Kotaro on July 02, 2012, 04:28:05 pm
FREE STR_RAT

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Digglez on July 02, 2012, 07:12:27 pm
I think this game has too easy system for 2h, it is just swing, swing, swing, swing, swing and so on, so i came up with an idea. Fatigue for 2h, so they can only swing certain amount of swings, before their arm gets tired, depending on a) 2h WPF, b) weapon weight, c) str and weapon weight of the attacker, d) 2h constitution stat

What do you think?
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Joseph Porta on July 02, 2012, 07:49:12 pm
Tbh a good shielder, not talking about myself, wont "turtle turtle turtle turtle, swing" he will attack more unless, ofcourse, he is ganked and thus forced to do so..

Nah
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 02, 2012, 07:50:52 pm
Totally different, 2h you use both hands + your body str, like digging with a big shovel, with shield it is only attached to your arm, like trying to dig with a big shovel only with 1 arm, what gets you more tired??

Next fatsack please..
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Digglez on July 02, 2012, 07:58:15 pm
Totally different, 2h you use both hands + your body str, like digging with a big shovel, with shield it is only attached to your arm, like trying to dig with a big shovel only with 1 arm, what gets you more tired??

Next fatsack please..

obviously you are not smart enough to recognize or appreciate satire
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 02, 2012, 08:00:44 pm
obviously you are not smart enough to recognize or appreciate satire

Obviously you are not smart enough to use capital letters when starting a sentence. Back to school please..
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 02, 2012, 08:03:00 pm
There are also many ways to counter them already. You could:

  • Just circle them. They are slow as hell while carrying a shield.
  • Kick them.


My absolute favourites, a) it doesn't help if you circle turtling shielder, he turns even a bit and the forcefield blocks your hit starting from shield skill 4. b) Kicking a shielder doesn't help you, there is like a 2% chance to hit him before shield is up again, unless someone else kick him and you swing.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: TR_Ragnarok on July 02, 2012, 08:33:42 pm
Why should we add fatigue to only Shields?
It makes no sense and it is unfair to give a certain weapon group a Heavy Handicap such as a "fatigue" by itself.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 02, 2012, 08:37:36 pm
Fatigue meaning as a random chance for shield to drop after series of hits. Besides last time i checked shield is not used to swing, the 1h weapon is.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: XyNox on July 02, 2012, 09:46:13 pm
I dont get why you would downvote this so hard appart from being a butthurt shielder.

I dont think Hazaa wants shielders to be easy prey in a 1v1. I think it is about those people who can effectivly block off multiple people out of a fight by activating godmode by clicking RMB as long as the shield lasts, catching about 5 strikes per second with their shields with absolutely no skill involved. Among the directional fighting, the manual blocking system may be the core feature that makes this game so attracting and shielders simply go trollface.jpg

I cant see why there shouldnt be a stun/blockcancel if you manage to get many hits on a shield in a short time in a 1v1, which is only possible against noobs or trolls anyway. Weapon damage + weight determines how fast the "stun o meter" fills on the shielder side and when its full the block is canceled for a short time, which also means death to 13 shield skill trolling. This would not at all affect shielders who are actually trying to counterattack but it would take away undeserved advantages of those turtles, like it should be.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Jarlek on July 03, 2012, 05:21:29 am
I dont get why you would downvote this so hard appart from being a butthurt shielder.

I dont think Hazaa wants shielders to be easy prey in a 1v1. I think it is about those people who can effectivly block off multiple people out of a fight by activating godmode by clicking RMB as long as the shield lasts, catching about 5 strikes per second with their shields with absolutely no skill involved. Among the directional fighting, the manual blocking system may be the core feature that makes this game so attracting and shielders simply go trollface.jpg

I cant see why there shouldnt be a stun/blockcancel if you manage to get many hits on a shield in a short time in a 1v1, which is only possible against noobs or trolls anyway. Weapon damage + weight determines how fast the "stun o meter" fills on the shielder side and when its full the block is canceled for a short time, which also means death to 13 shield skill trolling. This would not at all affect shielders who are actually trying to counterattack but it would take away undeserved advantages of those turtles, like it should be.
Good point, but the big question is still: why just for shields?

I can accept (hell, it might even be a good idea) that you may drop your shield if you take a lot of hits to it in a short ammount of time. But wouldn't it harder for someone blocking a lot of hits with a WEAPON instead of a shield to keep hold of it? Blocking a lot of hits with a small, light hammer should make you drop it no?

Ofc, this would take a lot of skill out of the game and buff the already powerful long reach weapons.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Digglez on July 03, 2012, 05:34:58 am
buy/carry/use/grab a shield breaking weapon
buy/carry/use/grab a maul

quit crying cuz you are a butthurt 2h that spams a turtle and wastes his time
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Taser on July 03, 2012, 07:54:36 am
Wow.. if you wanted to implement this for everyone, it wouldn't be so bad but only implementing it for shielders reveals your very apparent bias. Shields don't last that long vs shield breakers even with high shield skill.

I don't see why there should be anything random about a shield dropping anyway. Its stupid. Its the same for a weapon blocking another weapon. Should you have a random chance of dropping your weapon if you're fighting 1v1 for too long? inb4 no its a 2h blah blah

Fatigue might be a good idea but with your suggestion as it is... no.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 03, 2012, 11:47:05 am
I dont get why you would downvote this so hard appart from being a butthurt shielder.

I dont think Hazaa wants shielders to be easy prey in a 1v1. I think it is about those people who can effectivly block off multiple people out of a fight by activating godmode by clicking RMB as long as the shield lasts, catching about 5 strikes per second with their shields with absolutely no skill involved. Among the directional fighting, the manual blocking system may be the core feature that makes this game so attracting and shielders simply go trollface.jpg

I cant see why there shouldnt be a stun/blockcancel if you manage to get many hits on a shield in a short time in a 1v1, which is only possible against noobs or trolls anyway. Weapon damage + weight determines how fast the "stun o meter" fills on the shielder side and when its full the block is canceled for a short time, which also means death to 13 shield skill trolling. This would not at all affect shielders who are actually trying to counterattack but it would take away undeserved advantages of those turtles, like it should be.

This, first one who understood..
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 03, 2012, 11:47:53 am
Wow.. if you wanted to implement this for everyone, it wouldn't be so bad but only implementing it for shielders reveals your very apparent bias. Shields don't last that long vs shield breakers even with high shield skill.

I don't see why there should be anything random about a shield dropping anyway. Its stupid. Its the same for a weapon blocking another weapon. Should you have a random chance of dropping your weapon if you're fighting 1v1 for too long? inb4 no its a 2h blah blah

Fatigue might be a good idea but with your suggestion as it is... no.

It would be biased to add it for every class, since shield is autoblocking, rest is manual.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Taser on July 03, 2012, 12:14:23 pm
It would be biased to add it for every class, since shield is autoblocking, rest is manual.

So your argument is that people who hold shields would get fatigued but people spamming 2h multiple times would not? I only say this since your argument for even introducing fatigue is that people holding a shield for 10 seconds would get fatigued.

And it would be biased to add it for only one class. Shielders get tired but kiting archers, spamming 2hers, etc do not.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: XyNox on July 03, 2012, 12:15:50 pm
Good point, but the big question is still: why just for shields?

I can accept (hell, it might even be a good idea) that you may drop your shield if you take a lot of hits to it in a short ammount of time. But wouldn't it harder for someone blocking a lot of hits with a WEAPON instead of a shield to keep hold of it? Blocking a lot of hits with a small, light hammer should make you drop it no?

Ofc, this would take a lot of skill out of the game and buff the already powerful long reach weapons.

Good point also. I wouldnt mind when itd be the same for weapons. I gotta say though that I have never experienced players who turtle by manual blocking to be a problem, as there needs to be at least some skill to do so.

Pressing rmb as a shielder however takes no skill. Fighting shielders is probably the most boring thing in this game because even if they are complete newbies, there is no way get through their defence when they play turtle an backpaddel. This might not be much of a problem for regular inf shielders as you can simply switch targets but it is certainly a pain when throwers do it.

Id welcome some sort of "stun o meter" displayed on the hud which steadily decreases like a "overheating bar" for shooting games when not getting hits. It should calculate ps + weapon weight + damage on the attacker side and on the shielder side the shield weight + shield skill + shield type should detemine how much "stamina" he has for the shield and how fast it recovers. Of course when hitting a 6 shield skill steel shield with a dagger it should not be possible to make the shield drop. A 6 ps GS that lands a combo 5 or 6 or 7 consecutive hits or any other suitable value of strikes on a shield however should make it drop.

To prevent shielders getting outreached by backpaddeling long weapon users simply make the "stamina drain" proportional to the movement speed of the attacker, NOT relative speed bonus, i.e. when the shield gets hit by a backpaddeler the stamina drain on shield is very small, rendering shield fatigue almost unnoticable. If the attacker holds W the whole time though, stamina should get drained the most.

Again, this would not have any noticable effect on shielders with brains. As long as you are able to at least get 1 attack out for every 3 attacks you reveive from the enemy you are fine ( if you cant you should uninstall the game anyway ). And last but not least, this way crushthrough vs shields would finally find some balance by just giving those weapons "bonus against shield fatigue" or let the drain factor simply be calculated by the massive weight instead of giving them a free hit once in range.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: sF_Guardian on July 03, 2012, 12:18:19 pm
It would be biased to add it for every class, since shield is autoblocking, rest is manual.

You said it yourself.
Shield is not autoblocking, if you want to be good shielder it requires a lot of timing and
situational awareness.
You always have to wait for a good moment to strike, since most 1H`s are short and
you are pretty slow with most of the shields too.

Concerning your suggestion:

No way. Dont want to imagine all that 2H and Pole backpedaling until their opponent drops his shield
and gettin a free strike then.
2H and Pole doesnt require more skill than 1H and an average manual blocker has
no probs vs a shielder.
You just exchange the easier blockin and arrow protection against longer
reach, more speed and damage.

Classes are fairly well balanced atm and a butthurt fucker will not change this.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 03, 2012, 12:33:19 pm
You said it yourself.
Shield is not autoblocking, if you want to be good shielder it requires a lot of timing and
situational awareness.
You always have to wait for a good moment to strike, since most 1H`s are short and
you are pretty slow with most of the shields too.

Concerning your suggestion:

No way. Dont want to imagine all that 2H and Pole backpedaling until their opponent drops his shield
and gettin a free strike then.
2H and Pole doesnt require more skill than 1H and an average manual blocker has
no probs vs a shielder.
You just exchange the easier blockin and arrow protection against longer
reach, more speed and damage.

Classes are fairly well balanced atm and a butthurt fucker will not change this.


Butthurt shielder doesn't change my mind. :)
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: sF_Guardian on July 03, 2012, 12:34:51 pm
I`m not a shielder, playin nearly all classes on main and alts, my 2H and cav alts are still the easiest...

If you cant take others opinions dont post here.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: bruce on July 03, 2012, 12:38:13 pm
Given how the increased protection is balanced by having a harder time killing (lower reach + less damage) or fighting vs horsemen, it's quite balanced.

The anti-shield weapons lose a good part of their reach compared to non-shieldbreaker (greatswords), which is good balance overall. Making these redundant as well as weakening shielders just so greatsworders and glaive people can have an easier time is just bad balance.

It's far easier to kill using large, high damage weapons; and far easier to defend with a shield. If shields lose their defensive purpose, then there is little point to them.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Taser on July 03, 2012, 01:46:39 pm
-24 on his OP, still thinks his suggestion is fine and refuses to listen to anyone criticizing his suggestion.

Nothing to see here folks.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Gurnisson on July 03, 2012, 01:51:50 pm
I dont think Hazaa wants shielders to be easy prey in a 1v1. I think it is about those people who can effectivly block off multiple people out of a fight by activating godmode by clicking RMB as long as the shield lasts, catching about 5 strikes per second with their shields with absolutely no skill involved. Among the directional fighting, the manual blocking system may be the core feature that makes this game so attracting and shielders simply go trollface.jpg

You know, one of the reasons to actually be a shielder as a good player is that you can win outnumbered even if your opponents are skilled. If this (shitty) suggestion was implemented it would fuck up the balance too much and make shields a lot worse. I'm a piker, and I'm least useful while supporting someone against a shielder btw, if you think I'm biased.

Shields need their pros too for all the flaws
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: HarunYahya on July 03, 2012, 01:57:32 pm
yeah limit the shielders block against constantly spam by adding fatigue effect.
O wait something seems retarded in this idea right oO
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on July 03, 2012, 03:20:44 pm
new game people : let's see if we can hide all von_Hazaa posts by -1 them
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Joker86 on July 03, 2012, 03:50:16 pm
Just tell me, why should shield be uber strong last forever without hitting it with an axe??

Shielders are not uber strong. Not at all. Nobody complains about shielders being OP or killing them too easily.

Any of you guys couldn't even keep shield up for 2 swings.

Realism is a really bad base for balancing, because reality did not try to be fair, if anything, the opposite. But a game needs to be fair, and that's why reality arguments won't work in the suggestion corner.

Haven't you already noticed, this is suggestion corner, they are looking for new ideas here..

Geez stop posting here retard or read what i have said earlier.

rustyspoon is making good points. Don't insult people who actually care to give you a proper answer. Just because you don't like the answer it doesn't mean the poster is retarded.

I am not asking for old already discovered methods, but to bring in a new totally different one with a random chance in it, since life after all is an continuous event of random happenings.

Maybe you should spent your time better, than watching over the forums, since you clearly can't even read what you are being told.

You can't do it that way.

Classes are balanced to each other (at least in theory, devs are working on it), so there is some kind of overall balance. Now what you do is to pick a random class, and offer an additional possibility to defeat it. Which means, you tear that class out of the balance and make it worse. For no reason. If you offered another suggestion to make up for the nerf, like implementing shield bash (a favourite one in this forum), things would be different. That would be a CHANGE. But currently you are suggesting a NERF, and that without reason. People complain about cavalry, about two handers, crushthrough, throwers, some even still complain about ranged, but no one complains about shielders, that's why it is completely out of place to ask ofr a nerf for them.

Next to this is generally dislike the idea of "chances" in a skill based game. It's frustrating to do the right thing as always, but sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Makes the game feel more like a dice roll RPG than a skill based fighting game.

It would be biased to add it for every class, since shield is autoblocking, rest is manual.

Shield is meant to be autoblocking, and that's fine, even for multiple enemies. It's already been balanced. 1hd weapons have low reach and damage, shields are heavy and slow down the shielder, and he is more or less the only class which is rather defenseless to cavalry. If shield would be so OP, you could be sure that there would be much more shielders on the servers. But it's polearms and 2hds. Which is a bad thing, because I think shielders should be the main infantry class, but okay.

A shielder blocking a few opponents at the same time is nothing bad for me, it's okay. While he is blocking he does no harm to anyone, and he won't be able to block forever, when five opponents are hitting his shield. One of the many things rustyspoon has mentioned will happen to him, and he dies. The ability to fight several players simultaneously is a core element of the class.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: bruce on July 03, 2012, 04:03:03 pm
Nerfing shields has no place from either a balance standpoint or realism standpoint.

From a balance standpoint, they are not op by any means.

From a realism standpoint, unless you are in full plate and intend to fight other full-plate knights a lot (in which case, you would need a 2h weapon), a shield would be very desirable. And the "can defend easily" is just how shields are done ingame; irl you can also deflect strikes with one (leaving your opponent more exposed then ingame), hit people with one, and so on and so forth; not to mention you can fight in formation without being mowed down by arrows/bolts.


Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 03, 2012, 05:25:03 pm
I never said shield is op. As i said earlier, read what i say, don't make up things. :)

Oh yeah but seems like most of you can barely read.  :lol:

Maybe less c-rpg and more school?
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Jarlek on July 03, 2012, 05:31:54 pm
Good point also. I wouldnt mind when itd be the same for weapons. I gotta say though that I have never experienced players who turtle by manual blocking to be a problem, as there needs to be at least some skill to do so.

Pressing rmb as a shielder however takes no skill. Fighting shielders is probably the most boring thing in this game because even if they are complete newbies, there is no way get through their defence when they play turtle an backpaddel. This might not be much of a problem for regular inf shielders as you can simply switch targets but it is certainly a pain when throwers do it.

Id welcome some sort of "stun o meter" displayed on the hud which steadily decreases like a "overheating bar" for shooting games when not getting hits. It should calculate ps + weapon weight + damage on the attacker side and on the shielder side the shield weight + shield skill + shield type should detemine how much "stamina" he has for the shield and how fast it recovers. Of course when hitting a 6 shield skill steel shield with a dagger it should not be possible to make the shield drop. A 6 ps GS that lands a combo 5 or 6 or 7 consecutive hits or any other suitable value of strikes on a shield however should make it drop.

To prevent shielders getting outreached by backpaddeling long weapon users simply make the "stamina drain" proportional to the movement speed of the attacker, NOT relative speed bonus, i.e. when the shield gets hit by a backpaddeler the stamina drain on shield is very small, rendering shield fatigue almost unnoticable. If the attacker holds W the whole time though, stamina should get drained the most.

Again, this would not have any noticable effect on shielders with brains. As long as you are able to at least get 1 attack out for every 3 attacks you reveive from the enemy you are fine ( if you cant you should uninstall the game anyway ). And last but not least, this way crushthrough vs shields would finally find some balance by just giving those weapons "bonus against shield fatigue" or let the drain factor simply be calculated by the massive weight instead of giving them a free hit once in range.
That's actually a pretty good idea and I would gladly have this instead of shields breaking.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Malaclypse on July 03, 2012, 05:35:09 pm
This Von Hazaa guy is a troll, right? Otherwise I have no satisfying explanation for his posts.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 03, 2012, 05:38:59 pm
I just love to see when people come cry and think they own the whole forum. I mean it is suggestion corner after all, i can ask them to add throwing pile of dogshit if i want to.

To make it more realistic for the game, throwing pile of horsepoop.

Also when i make suggestion, i want people to add more to it/give their own NEW point of view, as did Xynox, Mala and Zapper, this is the way how you come up with new things..

But since most of the players are immature, they attack the idea, instead of trying to add/change it.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Gurnisson on July 03, 2012, 05:41:10 pm
i can ask them to add throwing pile of dogshit if i want to.

It would get more positive votes than this suggestion. :lol:
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Joker86 on July 03, 2012, 05:50:44 pm
I never said shield is op. As i said earlier, read what i say, don't make up things. :)

Oh yeah but seems like most of you can barely read.  :lol:

Maybe less c-rpg and more school?

Okay, let's see if my academic education is enough to understand what you want to say:

Also it would be fair only to be added for shielders, because shield has an autoblock, rest of the classes are manual.

I think this game has too easy system for shielders

Shields have autoblock.

I don't think everyone wants to run around with an axe or morningstar. :)

Everyone should be equipped with a weapon that's strong against shields, and as not everyone wants to run around with an axe or morningstar all weapons should be strong against shields.

Too much easymode with shields... Str is meaningless if it doesn't even help you drop down some skinny guys shield.

Although all characters have the same body model shielders are skinny and STR crutchers should negate the advantages a shield brings.

+ Shields have forcefield already, i think tht is a big bonus, just turn around and block everything!

Oh yeah and forgot, they also block arrows, even when not shielding!

Shields bring advantages. Can't be.



Seriously, usually I feel with those people who make a suggestion and then are flamed to oblivion by the community, but not only the amount of bias in your suggestion, which obviously proves that you have problems fighting shielders, also the attitude with which you treat the people who answer to your suggestion make all sympathies I had disappear.

You are just annoyed by the fact that a shielder is pretty hard to kill, and you want that changed.

When making suggestions, please ask yourself the following questions:

- Will my suggestion increase or lower the overall efficiency of the class? Do I have a second suggestion, which even the first one out, so that the class can stay at the same efficiency level?

- Will the change also influence the balance between the different classes? Will the change suddenly improve chances against one class and lower them against another? Is this in the sense of the class system and the rock-paper-scissors-system?

- When suggesting a nerf/buff, can I give objective reasons for it, instead of only my personal impression or success fighting with/against that class?

If you can't answer all the questions properly, then better do not write a suggestion.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: HarunYahya on July 03, 2012, 05:54:32 pm
new game people : let's see if we can hide all von_Hazaa posts by -1 them
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Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Joker86 on July 03, 2012, 05:54:48 pm
I just love to see when people come cry and think they own the whole forum. I mean it is suggestion corner after all, i can ask them to add throwing pile of dogshit if i want to.

To make it more realistic for the game, throwing pile of horsepoop.

Also when i make suggestion, i want people to add more to it/give their own NEW point of view, as did Xynox, Mala and Zapper, this is the way how you come up with new things..

But since most of the players are immature, they attack the idea, instead of trying to add/change it.

People are as free to answer suggestions as they are free to make some. Everyone is allowed to write here, not only people with a suggestion and their supporters.

And in this case, I don't think that you can add anything to this suggestion. If anything, shielders need to be buffed, not nerfed, which goes into the opposite direction.

And to be honest: I think it is your suggestion, which is immature. You have problems fighting shielder and post a completely biased suggestion, which is then defended by insulting people and pointing at their spelling or claiming they didn't understand, although they did. they just formulated it in a way the suggestion doesn't sound "so good" any more...
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Frell on July 03, 2012, 05:55:58 pm
Shielders should be the man infantry unit. Its the most practical way to play the game if you know what you're doing.

Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: XyNox on July 03, 2012, 06:02:41 pm
I just love to see when people come cry and think they own the whole forum. I mean it is suggestion corner after all, i can ask them to add throwing pile of dogshit if i want to.

To make it more realistic for the game, throwing pile of horsepoop.

Also when i make suggestion, i want people to add more to it/give their own NEW point of view, as did Xynox, Mala and Zapper, this is the way how you come up with new things..

But since most of the players are immature, they attack the idea, instead of trying to add/change it.

If the first feedback is negative, the following feedback will most likely be as well. In my eyes this community is not very mature, to say it politely, which causes some sort of group dynamics. Sadly, expecting to get minused or receiving retarded and irrational retorts is mandatory here. Needless to say they are to be ignored completely. As long as devs see the suggestion the job is done, as they will decide to their own likings anyway.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Joker86 on July 03, 2012, 06:12:12 pm
If the first feedback is negative, the following feedback will most likely be as well. In my eyes this community is not very mature, to say it politely, which causes some sort of group dynamics. Sadly, expecting to get minused or receiving retarded and irrational retorts is mandatory here. Needless to say they are to be ignored completely. As long as devs see the suggestion the job is done, as they will decide to their own likings anyway.

That's how it works in many cases, but not all. And I don't think that the first answer can change a lot. Perhaps it upsets posters who want to post a different feedback, but as soon as the first different answer appears, the rest will join in. In the end the community will always say what it thinks. And I think many posters here, especially those with a lot of posts, do think about suggestions and support good ones. Although I think many players are too "lazy" to imagine bigger changes. But this is a different matter.

On the other hand, if someone tries to nerf a class which is basically underpowered, nothing else than negative feedback is to be expected.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 03, 2012, 06:16:55 pm
As i told you, you are free to post your point of view. But you haven't done it, have you? I mean what new ideas you gave here, you said shields need a buff, how can they do it, without making things unbalanced?

I didn't know this thread was locked only for the original idea, i thought i made clear that anyone can speak up their mind to modify shields here.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on July 03, 2012, 06:19:10 pm
I'm confused, what's the issue with a shielder turtling?

They aren't killing.

So, if they aren't killing they aren't a threat.

So, attack a different Target that's threatening.

In any case, the better shielders don't block very often. As they are trying to keep the shield as long as possible for important moments. Such as getting triple teamed by pikes and swords of war.

In that event the shielder gets surrounded anyway due to how slow they are.

Can you provide me an example of a succesful turt,ling shielder, I can only think of two; blocking doorways(kick them, shield break, crush.....three easy solutions) or them running around the flag in siege(stop chasing them, take a step back, and swing so you'll hit them when they turn to squirm about)
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 03, 2012, 06:23:00 pm
There is no issue, it just look so stupid to me that i want it to change.

I wouldn't have trolled, if Rhyf*g and rest didn't start it immediatly. We could have had a nice conversation, but sadly few fkface ruined it. :)
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Frell on July 03, 2012, 06:41:14 pm
Whats the difference between a shielder turtling and an agil 2h running away?

The worse is the combination of the two, the poles who would run away and then lolspin. Luckily its over.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Joker86 on July 03, 2012, 07:51:52 pm
As i told you, you are free to post your point of view. But you haven't done it, have you? I mean what new ideas you gave here, you said shields need a buff, how can they do it, without making things unbalanced?

I didn't know this thread was locked only for the original idea, i thought i made clear that anyone can speak up their mind to modify shields here.

Well, I don't have any particular idea how to make shields more attractive again. As the only advantage 1hd has over 2hd is the higher speed, where the other one has more damage and higher reach, perhaps upping the 1hd weapon speed a tiny little bit could help? Currently 1hd players have really poor offensive abilities, and the speed advantage they have is even scaled down a bit by the 2hd animations (except of 1hd left swing, of course) and turning into your 2hd swing. But I guess my suggestion will probably cause as much flaming as yours, because people will complain about the super fast left swing and so on. So I better keep my mouth shut until I have a really good idea about something I really see a need to be changed. (Or to be a nice addition)


There is no issue, it just look so stupid to me that i want it to change.

I wouldn't have trolled, if Rhyf*g and rest didn't start it immediatly. We could have had a nice conversation, but sadly few fkface ruined it. :)

This is neither giving you the fault nor trying to insult you in some way. I just want to give the general advice that even if someone attacks you, usually it's better to stay calm. If they write "lol no, idiot", don't immediately answer with "NO U!", as this brings you nowhere. Stay calm and friendly, even if they didn't deserve it, say something like "Sorry that my idea doesn't please you, maybe you could say why? And please stop insulting me, as I didn't insult you either." and you've taken them all ammo. But if they see you rage, and you insult them back, all you will achieve is escalation. And this doesn't help your suggestion. If they still keep on calling you names, you can always report them to a moderator. If they start trolling, ignore them.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 03, 2012, 08:50:50 pm
new game people : let's see if we can hide all von_Hazaa posts by -1 them
haha I knew someone had said that when I saw couple of hazaa's posts :D. That one -1 bombing with Grumbs and qqv was hilarious too :mrgreen:

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Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Jarlek on July 03, 2012, 09:25:47 pm
haha I knew someone had said that when I saw couple of hazaa's posts :D. That one -1 bombing with Grumbs and qqv was hilarious too :mrgreen:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Most of the posts on the 1st page was already hidden before he posted that :P
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on July 03, 2012, 11:20:01 pm
Just for clarification.....is the following statement true?

1h is slower than 2h/poles if used with a shield. (Assume same char builds)

I'm sure there is information to support either side, and I'd like it if folks would brings those to light.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Haboe on July 04, 2012, 12:03:00 am
Just for clarification.....is the following statement true?

1h is slower than 2h/poles if used with a shield. (Assume same char builds)

I'm sure there is information to support either side, and I'd like it if folks would brings those to light.

As far as i know 1hander is faster if he doesnt raise his shield between attacks, though a 2hander can land an attack faster after a block (since there is not the animation of the shield raise/ lower)

Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: rustyspoon on July 04, 2012, 01:02:56 am
Just for clarification.....is the following statement true?

1h is slower than 2h/poles if used with a shield. (Assume same char builds)

I'm sure there is information to support either side, and I'd like it if folks would brings those to light.

Having a shield doesn't change your swing speed in any way.

Same speed weapons with the same build will finish their animation at the same exact time regardless of weapon type. That being said there are differences in animations.

Let's say there are 2 people facing each other. They each have the same build. One of them has a 94 speed 1-hander and the other has a 94 speed 2-hander. If they both swing at the same exact time, the 2-hander will connect first due to differences in animation. But if they both swung without hitting anything, both swings would end at the same exact time.

In regular combat though, that fact is kind of irrelevant anyway. The 2 most important factors are the initial weapon speed and footwork.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: TR_Ragnarok on July 04, 2012, 01:07:19 am
Just for clarification.....is the following statement true?

1h is slower than 2h/poles if used with a shield. (Assume same char builds)

I'm sure there is information to support either side, and I'd like it if folks would brings those to light.
tech. 1handers are faster by themselves and are still pretty fast with a shield, But They can be slower then pole/2h when feinting. But varies between what 1h and what shield you are using.

example. typical NA shielder would have 21 18 or 24 15 build both of which could also be ideal 2h and polearm builds.

NA 1h/S has a Elite Scimitar with Brown lion Heater shield with any of those 2 builds Can swing as fast as most 2h short swords
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Taser on July 04, 2012, 06:25:19 am
There is no issue, it just look so stupid to me that i want it to change.

I wouldn't have trolled, if Rhyf*g and rest didn't start it immediatly. We could have had a nice conversation, but sadly few fkface ruined it. :)

Pfft. You made a bad suggestion and people said it was bad, rightfully so. You got pissed off and shut your ears singing la la la in an attempt to drown out opposition to your idea.

Get over yourself and actually listen to what joker has been suggesting as well as other people. Then admit that yes your idea stinks but now your next idea might be better. Joker has been very kind to you even though you're the one that started attacking people first that criticized your idea. Take it gracefully.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Zanze on July 04, 2012, 06:37:22 am
You're an idiot.
Title: Re: Fatigue for shield?
Post by: Sir Ryden on July 04, 2012, 06:50:37 am
lol, I was a 2hander for about 15 gens worth of playing time, and I've been 1hander for about 4 or so, 2hand is definitely easier than 1h, no doubt. Just get good at blocking, castor everything, kick-slash, win.