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Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: Nessaj on July 02, 2012, 08:10:40 am

Title: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Nessaj on July 02, 2012, 08:10:40 am
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 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h__uutzcQXc)

“It’s not the greatest country in the world professor, that’s my answer.

Sharon, the NEA is a loser, yeah, it accounts for a penny out of our pay-check but he gets to hit you with it any time he wants. It doesn’t cost money, it costs votes, it costs air time, it costs column inches. You know why people don’t like liberals? Because they lose. If liberals are so fucking smart, how come they lose so god damn always?

And with a straight face you’re (conservative pundit) going to tell students that America is so star spangled awesome that we’re the only ones in the world that have freedom? Canada has freedom. Japan has freedom. The UK, France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Australia, BELGIUM has freedom.

So, 207 sovereign states in the world, like 180 of them have freedom.

And you, sorority girl, just in case you accidentally wander into a voting booth one day there’s some things you should know. One of them is there’s absolutely no evidence to support the statement that we’re the greatest country in the world. We’re 7th in literacy, 27th in math, 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy, 178th in infant mortality, 3rd in median household income, Number 4 in labor force and Number 4 in exports, we lead the world in only three categories: Number of incarcerated citizens per capita, number of adults who believe angels are real, and defense spending where spend more than the next 26 countries combined, 25 of whom are allies.

Now none of this is the fault of a 20 year old college student, but you none the less are without a doubt a member of the worst period generation period ever period, so when you ask what makes us the greatest country in the world, I don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. Yosemite?

It sure used to be. We stood up for what was right. We fought for moral reasons. We passed laws, struck down laws for moral reasons. We waged wars on poverty, not poor people. We sacrificed, we cared about our neighbors, we put our money where our mouths were and we never beat our chests. We built great big things, made ungodly technological advances, explored the universe, cured diseases, and cultivated the world’s greatest artists and the world’s greatest economy. We reached for the stars, acted like men, we aspired to intelligence, we didn’t belittle it, it didn’t make us feel inferior.

We didn’t identify ourselves by who we voted for in the last election and we didn’t scare so easy. We were able to be all these things and do all these things because we were informed, by great men, men who were revered. First step in solving any problem is recognizing there is one. America is not the greatest country in the world anymore. Enough?”


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 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h__uutzcQXc)

http://www.hbo.com/the-newsroom/

.. Gotta love Aaron Sorkin, brilliant writer ..

Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Vibe on July 02, 2012, 08:11:44 am
can't go wrong with HBO
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on July 02, 2012, 08:43:41 am
Too bad that in this day and age the being the greatest is determined by the ammount of guns and nukes you have
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on July 02, 2012, 08:43:41 am
Finland is the best, thats why it's called Winland.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Molly on July 02, 2012, 09:11:04 am
Quote
We waged wars on poverty, not poor people.
This alone is win.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: LordBerenger on July 02, 2012, 01:16:56 pm
Too bad that in this day and age the being the greatest is determined by the ammount of guns and nukes you have

And greatest movie industry, superior music, food that you don't have to have an ''sophisticated'' taste to eat. Etc etc..

Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on July 02, 2012, 01:23:44 pm
food that you don't have to have an ''sophisticated'' taste to eat.

 :lol:
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: [ptx] on July 02, 2012, 01:27:52 pm
The movie industry and the "superior" music. Mhm. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: LordBerenger on July 02, 2012, 02:55:56 pm
The movie industry and the "superior" music. Mhm. :rolleyes:

What else? Indie music from Europe? Low budget movies that are ''THE BEST EVER'' and that's at Cannes?

:lol:

:)
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Teeth on July 02, 2012, 03:13:21 pm
Luxembourg is the greatest country in the world. Highest GDP per capita, which most likely means that the standard of living is the best over there.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: [ptx] on July 02, 2012, 03:41:26 pm
What else? Indie music from Europe? Low budget movies that are ''THE BEST EVER'' and that's at Cannes?
As the saying goes - You don't argue about taste...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Christo on July 02, 2012, 03:47:06 pm
What else? Indie music from Europe? Low budget movies that are ''THE BEST EVER'' and that's at Cannes?

:)

NWOBHM, Black Sabbath, Queen, and it goes on and on.

There is no "superior". U.S had and still has great music too, like Blues, Stoner Rock was born in the US deserts of Nevada, and so.

Both have good things to choose from. And I didn't even cover all the music styles.

As the saying goes - You don't argue about taste...
(click to show/hide)

QFT
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Bobthehero on July 02, 2012, 03:57:25 pm
We all agree that Canada has the coolest plain filled with nothigness, yes?
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Darkkarma on July 02, 2012, 04:16:27 pm


Sharon, the NEA is a loser, yeah, it accounts for a penny out of our pay-check but he gets to hit you with it any time he wants. It doesn’t cost money, it costs votes, it costs air time, it costs column inches. You know why people don’t like liberals? Because they lose. If liberals are so fucking smart, how come they lose so god damn always?

And with a straight face you’re (conservative pundit) going to tell students that America is so star spangled awesome that we’re the only ones in the world that have freedom? Canada has freedom. Japan has freedom. The UK, France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Australia, BELGIUM has freedom.

So, 207 sovereign states in the world, like 180 of them have freedom.

And you, sorority girl, just in case you accidentally wander into a voting booth one day there’s some things you should know. One of them is there’s absolutely no evidence to support the statement that we’re the greatest country in the world. We’re 7th in literacy, 27th in math, 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy, 178th in infant mortality, 3rd in median household income, Number 4 in labor force and Number 4 in exports, we lead the world in only three categories: Number of incarcerated citizens per capita, number of adults who believe angels are real, and defense spending where spend more than the next 26 countries combined, 25 of whom are allies.

Now none of this is the fault of a 20 year old college student, but you none the less are without a doubt a member of the worst period generation period ever period, so when you ask what makes us the greatest country in the world, I don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. Yosemite?

It sure used to be. We stood up for what was right. We fought for moral reasons. We passed laws, struck down laws for moral reasons. We waged wars on poverty, not poor people. We sacrificed, we cared about our neighbors, we put our money where our mouths were and we never beat our chests. We built great big things, made ungodly technological advances, explored the universe, cured diseases, and cultivated the world’s greatest artists and the world’s greatest economy. We reached for the stars, acted like men, we aspired to intelligence, we didn’t belittle it, it didn’t make us feel inferior.

We didn’t identify ourselves by who we voted for in the last election and we didn’t scare so easy. We were able to be all these things and do all these things because we were informed, by great men, men who were revered. First step in solving any problem is recognizing there is one. America is not the greatest country in the world anymore. Enough?
”[/size][/font]


.. Gotta love Aaron Sorkin, brilliant writer ..[/center]

At least he put the good, useful information on top of all the hollow hyperbolic bullshit. I see his point, but I hate when writers write things like what I bolded out. Complacency/laziness is one thing, but to say that we've forgotten what it means to be american and need to go back to the way we were back in the good ol' days.. What a load of shit. When were these "good old days" anyway exactly? Anyone that reads a history book would know that americans of yesterday are just as selfish and close minded as many of us today are. Waging wars have pretty much always been a matter of convenience, not morality. Social programs and government regulation have always been a subject of hatred. Guys like Frank Zappa were seen as a bane in their own country for refusing the relent to system of morality/law based around theology. Most Americans have always been by and large uninformed, ignorant jackasses. They used to work harder is all. This isn't me arguing in favor of such traits, but lets be real. Im all for saying America needs that hunger and competitive spirit that has eluded us these past generations, but if we aren't stepping forward, id at least rather be standing still. I sure as hell don't want to be stepping backwards.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Beauchamp on July 02, 2012, 04:41:56 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu1MLW2EgQw&feature=player_detailpage#t=304s
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Molly on July 02, 2012, 04:48:36 pm
At least he put the good, useful information on top of all the hollow hyperbolic bullshit. I see his point, but I hate when writers write things like what I bolded out. Complacency/laziness is one thing, but to say that we've forgotten what it means to be american and need to go back to the way we were back in the good ol' days.. What a load of shit. When were these "good old days" anyway exactly? Anyone that reads a history book would know that americans of yesterday are just as selfish and close minded as many of us today are. Waging wars have pretty much always been a matter of convenience, not morality. Social programs and government regulation have always been a subject of hatred. Guys like Frank Zappa were seen as a bane in their own country for refusing the relent to system of morality/law based around theology. Most Americans have always been by and large uninformed, ignorant jackasses. They used to work harder is all. This isn't me arguing in favor of such traits, but lets be real. Im all for saying America needs that hunger and competitive spirit that has eluded us these past generations, but if we aren't stepping forward, id at least rather be standing still. I sure as hell don't want to be stepping backwards.
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Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Oberyn on July 02, 2012, 05:40:29 pm
At least he put the good, useful information on top of all the hollow hyperbolic bullshit. I see his point, but I hate when writers write things like what I bolded out. Complacency/laziness is one thing, but to say that we've forgotten what it means to be american and need to go back to the way we were back in the good ol' days.. What a load of shit. When were these "good old days" anyway exactly? Anyone that reads a history book would know that americans of yesterday are just as selfish and close minded as many of us today are. Waging wars have pretty much always been a matter of convenience, not morality. Social programs and government regulation have always been a subject of hatred. Guys like Frank Zappa were seen as a bane in their own country for refusing the relent to system of morality/law based around theology. Most Americans have always been by and large uninformed, ignorant jackasses. They used to work harder is all. This isn't me arguing in favor of such traits, but lets be real. Im all for saying America needs that hunger and competitive spirit that has eluded us these past generations, but if we aren't stepping forward, id at least rather be standing still. I sure as hell don't want to be stepping backwards.

That's what happens when you worship the past as some sort of untainted fairy wonderland. From the deification of the Founding Fathers, the mythology built around certain presidents, the rose-colored goggles when looking back at the Gilded Age, the worship of the "Greatest Generation" as if they were some sort of ubermensch, the list goes on and on. So you have this completely fabricated ideal of what being an "american" really means, and what the country actually stood for and accomplished.
Tbh looking towards the past and seeing only the good, and looking at the present and seeing only the bad is a universal trait anyways, not uniquely american. Every single generation has it, and it's usually some old fart complaining about how young people these days are lazy and degenerates. The one generation where that view is accurate (imo) is with the baby-boomers, which ironically both the actor and writer belong to.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Tagora on July 02, 2012, 06:02:41 pm


Quote
It sure used to be. We stood up for what was right. We fought for moral reasons. We passed laws, struck down laws for moral reasons. We waged wars on poverty, not poor people. We sacrificed, we cared about our neighbors, we put our money where our mouths were and we never beat our chests. We built great big things, made ungodly technological advances, explored the universe, cured diseases, and cultivated the world’s greatest artists and the world’s greatest economy. We reached for the stars, acted like men, we aspired to intelligence, we didn’t belittle it, it didn’t make us feel inferior.

>Implying that none of this was related to the cold war and our race to be the best.

I went to a social justice orientated school and I learned about imperialist paradigms perpetuating class struggle and what I've concluded is that it doesn't matter what economic/social model you adapt, whether it's capitalism, marxism, TROTSKYISM, if you identify as a patriot before a human being you'll end up with warfare and elitist dominance stirring up hatred.  Every time an alternative economic theory is proposed, retarded paranoids like Mao and Stalin manage to convince people they rely on government when Marxism states the opposite.

IMO, this guy is just a shitty version of: http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/6681/

Quote
We’re 7th in literacy, 27th in math, 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy, 178th in infant mortality, 3rd in median household income, Number 4 in labor force and Number 4 in exports, we lead the world in only three categories: Number of incarcerated citizens per capita, number of adults who believe angels are real, and defense spending where spend more than the next 26 countries combined, 25 of whom are allies.

And because I'm a anarcho-socialist I reject their statistics as methods of measuring a non-objective state.  We should not be measuring ourselves by our governments but measuring ourselves by independence from governments.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on July 02, 2012, 10:53:01 pm
Too bad that in this day and age the being the greatest is determined by the ammount of guns and nukes you have

Being the greatest = being the worst, having the ability to kill all life on earth, being the most aggressive, most manipulative, most dominating, most corrupt, most polluting, most selfish, survival of the fittest when it comes to humanity isn't about fitness, it's about manipulating the fittest to do the deeds of men with evil plans, who plot in the shadows and behind the curtains while their strung up actors are doing all the smiling and public manipulation, selling misinformation as reality, portraying propaganda as fact.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Oberyn on July 02, 2012, 10:55:35 pm
Being the greatest = being the worst, having the ability to kill all life on earth, being the most aggressive, most manipulative, most dominating, most corrupt, most polluting, most selfish, survival of the fittest when it comes to humanity isn't about fitness, it's about manipulating the fittest to do the deeds of men with evil plans, who plot in the shadows and behind the curtains while their strung up actors are doing all the smiling and public manipulation, selling misinformation as reality, portraying propaganda as fact.

And this is the other side of ridiculous propaganda  :rolleyes:. I can't even decide which approach is more unrealistic and retarded.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on July 02, 2012, 10:58:17 pm
And this is the other side of ridiculous propaganda  :rolleyes:. I can't even decide which approach is more unrealistic and retarded.

Hmm?

I know what side you belong to, are you going to put me on a side too? Quite a conventional thought out judgement you have.

When people limit themselves to two halves, we can either be 50% wrong or 100% wrong, think outside of defined norms, it's usually where new ideas are formed, and generally new ideas are good for human progression, (generally, I guess the development of certain aspects of war aren't really classed as positive human progression), limit yourself to two choices and you're going to be picking a side, and someone or in some cases everyone, has to lose when they have a side to take.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: LordBerenger on July 02, 2012, 10:58:38 pm
Being the greatest = being the worst, having the ability to kill all life on earth, being the most aggressive, most manipulative, most dominating, most corrupt, most polluting, most selfish, survival of the fittest when it comes to humanity isn't about fitness, it's about manipulating the fittest to do the deeds of men with evil plans, who plot in the shadows and behind the curtains while their strung up actors are doing all the smiling and public manipulation, selling misinformation as reality, portraying propaganda as fact.

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Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on July 02, 2012, 11:08:20 pm
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Conspiracy in your case is a rejection of the truth that the world does not revolve around you, in-fact revolves around those who can put some ink to paper and make hundreds of thousands of equally human albeit financially poles apart people lose their lively hoods.

You may keep dreaming, and I will keep seeking.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: LordBerenger on July 02, 2012, 11:29:05 pm
Well i believe that certain Secret Societies might actually exist. Makes sense. And some of their supposedly plans for a better world sounds actually good. But i'm heavily doubting certain ''beliefs'' and conspiracy theories or aspects of em.


If i pull 3 quick ones (conspiracy theories).


Shapeshifting Lizards.....= Omg..sigh...

A super powerful group known around as ''Illuminati'' with several branches under it's command (Majestic 12, U.N, Trilateral Commission, all bankers supporting it and having powerful positions within) = Some of it could be true but you gotta remember that their motive might not be ''OMG THEY LOVE SATAN AND WANTS TO CONTROL THE POPULATION AND PUT CHIPS INTO OUR BRAINS!''. Don't be biased and one sided.

Roswell UFO 1947 = Well, it could've been true that UFO had crashed. But keep in mind that going public with that isn't exactly a smart thing to do to begin with as you can't know how everyone else might react. But it could be true, but it could also just have been a secret military vehicle that crashed whilst being tested.


TL;DR Overall you gotta take EVERYTHING with a pinch of salt.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on July 03, 2012, 12:32:10 am
Just because I have an alternate opinion to the mainstream does not mean I endorse all conspiracy theories, in-fact, many things I believe in which aren't mainstream aren't conspiracies at all, just ignored reality, why is it ignored?

 Because politically it doesn't flow with the globalists plans to initiate a future world government, you know, hypocrisy, genocide, ect ect, doesn't really look good in a world governments portfolio, but the elites behind this dream, yeah it's their dream, not ours, I mean it benefits them more than any non-elite, non-super rich individual, but in order for them to realise their dreams they have to get the masses on board, after all without any roots a tree cannot grow, and the fruit cannot be picked when they come to bare, and in order to get the masses on their side, they have to attempt to mould themselves into the masters of morality, the masters of principle, the masters of public safety, the masters of freedom of choice, the masters of our freedom and the givers of our freedoms and our safety, in-fact, they'd sooner have half of us killed if it would further serve their goal of one day having each and every one of us easier to manipulate and control so being at the top isn't so much hard work, after all, while we strive to earn to live, they earn to rule, it's a cultural thing, born from being rich for too long and having generations born into wealth and subsequently power, many of the elite are a different species and they couldn't survive in a working class man's world, not even for one hour.

While for an African tribesman survival is killing the next animal or working all week for a bag of rice, the working class western man is to earn his wages and pay the rent, in the elite's circle's its to live a life without knowing work and fearing the loss of their voice in the direction of our species, the loss of their ability to provide their children with the lives they've lived, which are far removed from our own, so much so, even a conspiracy theorist would look normal to the likes of you, when in comparison psychologically to many of the individuals in these elite circles.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: LordBerenger on July 03, 2012, 12:50:41 am
See there's what i just told ya. What makes YOU think that an One world government would actually do that and make it a totalitarian ruled world?

Just theories and theories and opinions and shit. Maybe and just maybe it would actually be for the better of mankind. But no, it's much better to fight useless wars for stupid nationalism and for your theocratic nations. Right? And i'm positive freedom won't be robbed if and only if a one world government appears.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on July 03, 2012, 12:58:51 am
See there's what i just told ya. What makes YOU think that an One world government would actually do that and make it a totalitarian ruled world?

Just theories and theories and opinions and shit. Maybe and just maybe it would actually be for the better of mankind. But no, it's much better to fight useless wars for stupid nationalism and for your theocratic nations. Right? And i'm positive freedom won't be robbed if and only if a one world government appears.

Because there have been false flag attacks, and false flag attacks exposed as just that, false flag, attacks created by one side with the intention of having what would otherwise appear to be a justified reason to take a course of action deemed necessary to eliminate a threat they've invented, only they didn't invent all the civilians that would die as a result of the conflicts they initiate in the name of taking a falsely justified course of action, they didn't invent the suffering and make it up, they made it happen, oh but they're justified and they're hero's never-mind, let them kill, butcher and maim, and be hypocrites, because they're the good guys and they're on our side.. Fuck off.

Go and nuke half the world for humanitarian reasons Berenger, I'm sure the means justify the ends right? Go and use weapons of mass destruction on those falsely accused of having weapons of mass destruction, go and help those innocent, Al-Qaeda, armed and funded terrorist protesters "peacefully" topple their ruling government, please you may have been born yesterday but some of us were not.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Oberyn on July 03, 2012, 04:56:26 am
If you think being poor and "powerless" somehow makes nations less selfish, violent and corrupt, yes, you were born yesterday. If you think modern nations such as the US (that you malign as some sort of Great Satan) are as bad as literally ANYTHING that existed before WW2, you are not only a newborn but a complete retard. Or heck, don't even need to go that far back. Just look at wtf is going on just south of their border right now. These are just a couple of random examples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_San_Fernando_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_San_Fernando_massacre

Where, in anything that the evil corrupt masterminds that run the US have planned, has been as sick and fucked up as this?
Only retards and ultranationalists with zero understanding of geopolitics have ever tried to portray the US and it's real politik selfish moves as anything but that, but your bleeding heart idiocy is just as moronic.

Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on July 03, 2012, 04:36:45 pm
If you think being poor and "powerless" somehow makes nations less selfish, violent and corrupt, yes, you were born yesterday. If you think modern nations such as the US (that you malign as some sort of Great Satan) are as bad as literally ANYTHING that existed before WW2, you are not only a newborn but a complete retard. Or heck, don't even need to go that far back. Just look at wtf is going on just south of their border right now. These are just a couple of random examples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_San_Fernando_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_San_Fernando_massacre

Where, in anything that the evil corrupt masterminds that run the US have planned, has been as sick and fucked up as this?
Only retards and ultranationalists with zero understanding of geopolitics have ever tried to portray the US and it's real politik selfish moves as anything but that, but your bleeding heart idiocy is just as moronic.

What? Mexican cartels killing rival cartels so they can sell their drugs to the American market? What? You're telling me America's homicide rate is low? What? America isn't continuously breaching the national sovereignty of multiple nations and bombing militants and civilians all year round? What? America isn't the real driving force between many EU nations foreign policies, which end up encouraging the EU to get involved in unjust unlawful wars?

How does one bad situation deride a multitude of others? Your point Oberyn? Seriously, I don't understand what kind of point you're trying to make here? You're saying Mexico doesn't have rich people calling the shots? What day were you born on? History dictates America's kill-rate, and involvement in conflicts in which deaths go into the millions is a fact, and you cannot deride history with a comparably much smaller conflict which is funded and armed  by the very same nation which I am talking about.

The difference between the Mexico situation and the Middle-East, is that the middle-class and rich American hard drug consumers and gun runners fuel the Mexican murders, in the Middle-East it's the corporations which fuel the conflicts and weapons are sold via proxies such as Saudi Arabia, who by the way are arming the "peaceful" protesters in Syria.

You have not derided my point, you've only reinforced it Oberyn.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Tagora on July 03, 2012, 05:38:27 pm
If you think being poor and "powerless" somehow makes nations less selfish, violent and corrupt, yes, you were born yesterday. If you think modern nations such as the US (that you malign as some sort of Great Satan) are as bad as literally ANYTHING that existed before WW2, you are not only a newborn but a complete retard. Or heck, don't even need to go that far back. Just look at wtf is going on just south of their border right now. These are just a couple of random examples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_San_Fernando_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_San_Fernando_massacre

Where, in anything that the evil corrupt masterminds that run the US have planned, has been as sick and fucked up as this?
Only retards and ultranationalists with zero understanding of geopolitics have ever tried to portray the US and it's real politik selfish moves as anything but that, but your bleeding heart idiocy is just as moronic.



The difference is in America where generally speaking, access to education, healthcare, and employment is relatively easy to find when you compare us to developing nations.  You cannot argue that a developing nation is equally accountable to crime until you have given the world an equally distributed amount of power and resources to fight crime.  I've traveled to Mexico and visited where the average pay ranged from $4-8 a day for a worker who sometimes worked consecutive six hour shifts.  Drug dealing was fairly common.  Still, the people living there were some of the kindest, most gentle people I've ever had the pleasure of meeting.  I saw families who were crossing the border, I even talked to a few people who did cross the border.  Do you have any idea how much they lost to try to make it to America where they did not face constant economic strife and persecution?  One man lost his child, another has an untreated leg injury, and another left his family behind when he was found and deported.  Oh yeah, for all of you people who enjoy statistics, here's one: over 2,000 to 3,000 people have died in the last 10 years attempting to cross the border.  Honestly, your comment just sounded like someone who has no concept of poverty and what it forces people to do to survive.

So let's try to think of a few things that are fucked up in America in recent times (post-ww2 right?) , besides the deportation and exploitation of an ethnic group.
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_drug_trafficking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NDAA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Drugs
http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB53/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemalan_Civil_War
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmGcaOkRsTU
http://www.flagrancy.net/timeline.html

These are all documented instances of American abuses of power, or institutions relating to American private interests propped by American foreign policy.  These are not conspiracies.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Tibe on July 03, 2012, 05:55:14 pm
Why the hell are you taking a piss at USA? Im not a big fan of America  nor its wars either and it has massive problems but its not that bad, that you would make a full essay of it...... 

There are far worse countries to discuss about, no point of trying to convince people to turn against USA cause I dont think you would achieve anything with that.

Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Tagora on July 03, 2012, 06:13:51 pm
Why the hell are you taking a piss at USA? Im not a big fan of America  nor its wars either and it has massive problems but its not that bad, that you would make a full essay of it...... 

There are far worse countries to discuss about, no point of trying to convince people to turn against USA cause I dont think you would achieve anything with that.

The United States is my home.  I was born here and I love living here.  The problem lies in the way my neighbors give up their civil rights because they do not accept the responsibility of upholding the constitution.  Our ignorance simply catches up to us, as it did in all of those instances, as it did in the fiscal collapse of 2008, as it did in Iraq and still in Afghanistan, as our credit rating is downgraded, and unstable regimes in developing nations discover atomic power.  When we should be subsidizing small businesses instead of paying for corporations to ship and peddle their electronics to our uneducated citizens.  When we should be passing legislation in our government that makes it fiscally transparent, we're passing legislation that includes torture.  Realize that if you're an American, law can and will be used against you.  The lack of public funding will reverberate and negatively affect you and your loved ones.  I'm not trying to scare you into voting one way or another, I'm just trying to spark some curiosity in people's souls so that they research that which is destroying democracy.

Besides, the argument that some countries are worse off than America doesn't mean that America can't improve, you're just skewing reality.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Beauchamp on July 03, 2012, 06:19:50 pm
Murmillus_Prime: could you name a few examples when American intervention also led to a better world?
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on July 03, 2012, 06:20:02 pm
The difference is in America where generally speaking, access to education, healthcare, and employment is relatively easy to find when you compare us to developing nations.  You cannot argue that a developing nation is equally accountable to crime until you have given the world an equally distributed amount of power and resources to fight crime.  I've traveled to Mexico and visited where the average pay ranged from $4-8 a day for a worker who sometimes worked consecutive six hour shifts.  Drug dealing was fairly common.  Still, the people living there were some of the kindest, most gentle people I've ever had the pleasure of meeting.  I saw families who were crossing the border, I even talked to a few people who did cross the border.  Do you have any idea how much they lost to try to make it to America where they did not face constant economic strife and persecution?  One man lost his child, another has an untreated leg injury, and another left his family behind when he was found and deported.  Oh yeah, for all of you people who enjoy statistics, here's one: over 2,000 to 3,000 people have died in the last 10 years attempting to cross the border.  Honestly, your comment just sounded like someone who has no concept of poverty and what it forces people to do to survive.

So let's try to think of a few things that are fucked up in America in recent times (post-ww2 right?) , besides the deportation and exploitation of an ethnic group.
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_drug_trafficking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NDAA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Drugs
http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB53/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemalan_Civil_War
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmGcaOkRsTU
http://www.flagrancy.net/timeline.html

These are all documented instances of American abuses of power, or institutions relating to American private interests propped by American foreign policy.  These are not conspiracies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet

http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-threat-to-attack-iran-is-not-a-bluff-deputy-fm-says-1.4639
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/01/us-iran-idUSBRE8600HG20120701

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/us-defends-drone-strikes-despite-civilian-deaths.aspx?pageID=238&nID=19691&NewsCatID=358
http://rt.com/usa/news/drones-civilian-death-obama-187/

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2011/08/its_not_what_we_ought_to_do_but_what_we_can_do.html <<< Lol?
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-skeptics/intervention-libya-syria-isn%E2%80%99t-humanitarian-or-liberal-6739
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on July 03, 2012, 06:20:40 pm
Murmillus_Prime: could you name a few examples when American intervention also led to a better world?

If all it did was deliver us to a much more bloody wide-scale third world war, then no. The amount of countries the U.S has attacked or tried to change the regime in ,or breached its sovereignty goes into double figures, American intervention delivered American dominance which does as it wishes, imposes its will and its corrupt politicians will through the military arm upon poor and stable nations and turns them into sectarian hell holes where, if war crimes actually mattered to the west, and weren't just used as a political tool, then they'd be imprisoning all the criminals, not only some of them who  stand in the way politically or financially (to corporations and monetary institutions like the IMF).
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Tibe on July 03, 2012, 06:49:57 pm
The United States is my home.  I was born here and I love living here.  The problem lies in the way my neighbors give up their civil rights because they do not accept the responsibility of upholding the constitution.  Our ignorance simply catches up to us, as it did in all of those instances, as it did in the fiscal collapse of 2008, as it did in Iraq and still in Afghanistan, as our credit rating is downgraded, and unstable regimes in developing nations discover atomic power.  When we should be subsidizing small businesses instead of paying for corporations to ship and peddle their electronics to our uneducated citizens.  When we should be passing legislation in our government that makes it fiscally transparent, we're passing legislation that includes torture.  Realize that if you're an American, law can and will be used against you.  The lack of public funding will reverberate and negatively affect you and your loved ones.  I'm not trying to scare you into voting one way or another, I'm just trying to spark some curiosity in people's souls so that they research that which is destroying democracy.

Besides, the argument that some countries are worse off than America doesn't mean that America can't improve, you're just skewing reality.

That was not the point. America can improve, im certain of it. I simply ment its typical for the observers to see and complain about it. Yes, its sad that every time USA declares war our guys from EU are dragged along with it and the rate of illiteracy and crime is quite huge in USA. But thats the problems u get when u have a big nation, corruption and loads of other problems.

Its typical for observers from other countries to start complainin how the overall  system in USA is broken, while they themselves are giving very little for their own community. If you start really thinking about it, rather than complainin, I dont think any of us would come up with anything that whould solve the american problems.

And whats with this constant democracy crap all the time? The first rule of democracy is that u can do whatever u like aslong as it doesnt limit the freedoms of another individual. U can bend that rule as you please really. Its scientifically proven that democracy gets its power from stupid voters. Its quite odd that this is the only barely working system that partly works with us humans.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Tagora on July 03, 2012, 06:54:52 pm
That was not the point. America can improve, im certain of it. I simply ment its typical for the observers to see and complain about it. Yes, its sad that every time USA declares war our guys from EU are dragged along with it and the rate of illiteracy and crime is quite huge in USA. But thats the problems u get when u have a big nation, corruption and loads of other problems.

Its typical for observers from other countries to start complainin how the overall  system in USA is broken, while they themselves are giving very little for their own community. If you start really thinking about it, rather than complainin, I dont think any of us would come up with anything that whould solve the american problems.

And whats with this constant democracy crap all the time? The first rule of democracy is that u can do whatever u like aslong as it doesnt limit the freedoms of another individual. U can bend that rule as you please really. Its scientifically proven that democracy gets its power from stupid voters. Its quite odd that this is the only barely working system that partly works with us humans.

Well, at least the United States with all their problems still plays a meaningful role in the world while most European countries have become irrelevant with 120% of GDP going to service debt over 50 years old.

jk
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Beauchamp on July 03, 2012, 07:00:02 pm
If all it did was deliver us to a much more bloody wide-scale third world war, then no. The amount of countries the U.S has attacked or tried to change the regime in ,or breached its sovereignty goes into double figures, American intervention delivered American dominance which does as it wishes, imposes its will and its corrupt politicians will through the military arm upon poor and stable nations and turns them into sectarian hell holes where, if war crimes actually mattered to the west, and weren't just used as a political tool, then they'd be imprisoning all the criminals, not only some of them who  stand in the way politically or financially (to corporations and monetary institutions like the IMF).

u're really "black n'white" kind of person
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on July 03, 2012, 07:14:01 pm
u're really "black n'white" kind of person

We all profit, only because the elite profit, when the elite don't profit, we don't profit, when they don't profit, they start wars to ensure they do profit, to ensure that we profit, to keep us subdued, content and ignorant to their crimes against humanity, individual freedom and privacy.

Some say oil makes the west go round, well without the spilling of blood that wouldn't really be the case. Although it's more complicated than Oil, rare earth minerals have become a very sought after commodity now, water too is soon becoming a commodity which blood will be spilt over, the principle is the same.

This elite class that orders our armies, bluffs freedom, fixes the elections, that determines how the higher echelons of society are run, and allows them to run badly as long as a purpose or agenda is served, has meetings with their globalist buddies and discuss world population reduction, discuss how less wasteful we can all be, discuss how to be more efficient with our lives, while they all go home to their mansions where they own their own islands or football field sized gardens with swimming pools, living in houses that require mini power stations to power, and flying all over the world multiple times a year just to enjoy themselves in another part of the world, these people who enjoy the most out of life don't want ol peasant joe to threaten their existence, they are acting against the possibility of joe becoming a thorn in their toe, restricting internet freedom, restricting privacy, snooping in peoples private lives, stamping out protest, stamping out self determination, stamping out sovereignty, all because each and every one threatens their lively hoods at the top of the pyramid of shit.

After all, we only feed off their shit, and if they aren't eating enough, then there isn't enough shit for the peasants to eat, then the peasants will shake the tree and down they come.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: LordBerenger on July 03, 2012, 07:19:12 pm
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Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Oberyn on July 03, 2012, 07:50:41 pm
Read some history. It's kind of hard to rail about the horrible injustices perpetrated by the horrible elite when compared to...any other time in human existence. Your idea of fairness and justice (first of all, completely dictated by occidental political ideology) has only ever existed as a theoretical construct. We're closer to it now than we have EVER been in the entire history of humanity, and getting closer. Judging by your interpretation humanity has reached the pinacle of horrifying warfare, bloodshedding, propaganda and jingoism at this precise moment in time with the fascist US empire...again, do you know any history? At all? Do you want to compare it to literally any other empire? Not to give them too much credit, it was entirely due to MAD, without nuclear weapons WW2 would've quickly devolved into WW3, they walked softly and carried a big stick because they knew the big stick was so big it would take them out too, not because they're so fucking benelovent as they like to paint themselves. OF COURSE the nation-state still acts in a selfish manner...that's what it's there for, that's the reason behind the continued existence of every nation-state.
Ironically you want them to act as if they were responsable for the entire world, as in, a one world government?
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on July 03, 2012, 08:09:27 pm
Read some history. It's kind of hard to rail about the horrible injustices perpetrated by the horrible elite when compared to...any other time in human existence. Your idea of fairness and justice (first of all, completely dictated by occidental political ideology) has only ever existed as a theoretical construct. We're closer to it now than we have EVER been in the entire history of humanity, and getting closer. Judging by your interpretation humanity has reached the pinacle of horrifying warfare, bloodshedding, propaganda and jingoism at this precise moment in time with the fascist US empire...again, do you know any history? At all? Do you want to compare it to literally any other empire? Not to give them too much credit, it was entirely due to MAD, without nuclear weapons WW2 would've quickly devolved into WW3, they walked softly and carried a big stick because they knew the big stick was so big it would take them out too, not because they're so fucking benelovent as they like to paint themselves. OF COURSE the nation-state still acts in a selfish manner...that's what it's there for, that's the reason behind the continued existence of every nation-state.
Ironically you want them to act as if they were responsable for the entire world, as in, a one world government?

I don't want them to act as in one world government, I want our nations to progress not shackle themselves to the bloody slime of corruption that has dominated the ruling classes ever since there has been a ruling class, which by the way has existed for thousands of years in one shape or form, so no I'm not ignorant to the history Oberyn I'm simply focusing on now, you know the 21st Century, this "modern" age, by speaking my opinion, my 21st century opinion on the ill conduct of a corrupt state built on lies and bones but smelling of roses with disney in your faces and mcdonalds down your guts where anyone can become a billionaire, where freedom is protected, and justice rules over the land, where the fairy's dance and pink elephants float, I'm sharing the cold hard truths of our existences, not sticking my head in the sand and hope it all goes away, that it has no consequence to my or anyone else's lives that I care about, people like to stick their heads in the sand and take it up the ass and just put up with it because they've been bred to be obedient and to shut up, when we're all rushing to jump off the sinking ship but we aren't allowed to because a gun is being pointed at our heads what are you going to do? Accept it, it's happening just accept it?
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Tibe on July 03, 2012, 08:12:05 pm
USA has Linkin Park! I forgive Uncle Sams flaws just for that.  :mrgreen:





(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Oberyn on July 03, 2012, 08:15:16 pm
The internet, and access to it, is going to change everything. It's going to have a bigger impact than telephone, than flight, than television to instore a true feeling of brotherhood and acceptance across all races, religions, ethnicities, whatever. We are living through those moments right now, it's not even close to having reached it's full potential, and people like you being outraged because reality doesn't represent the idealistic image of how things "should" be is a part of it, but I like to approach it with perspective.

Looking on the past and present people as if they are some sort of selfish animals is pretty easy for people who haev the luxury of having an overflow of information and knowledge, to the point that sifting the nuggest of gold from the crap is the true challenge. For many of them the world was and still is limited to their blood relations, their tribes, their clans, their neighborhood, their city, their nation, their religion, etc. People relate themselves to each other this way, there is no getting around it.

The only sensible option if you want your ideal world of true justice and freedom is to grow that feeling of "belonging" as large as possible. Nerdy as fuck, but I'm going to have to bring Watchmen (the coming book/movie thing) as a hypothetical example...I think Reagan (I fucking hate the cunt, but still quoting him in this case) said something along those lines as well, that if ever the planet was threatened by some sort of outside "alien" race we could unite the planet in about a week.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Tagora on July 03, 2012, 08:23:12 pm
I'm not sure what you're saying, that violence isn't important because comparatively speaking in history we're not mongols sacking a roman city? Or that we're at the pinnacle of western civilization?  Are you kidding me?  Every major western civilization has thought that.  Greece, Rome, Britain, and now the United States.  Now you're beginning to understand the failed egocentric approach that's plagued the world since before written history.  See "Homer".
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Oberyn on July 03, 2012, 08:30:23 pm
I'm not sure what you're saying, that violence isn't important because comparatively speaking in history we're not mongols sacking a roman city? Or that we're at the pinnacle of western civilization?  Are you kidding me?  Every major western civilization has thought that.  Greece, Rome, Britain, and now the United States.  Now you're beginning to understand the failed egocentric approach that's plagued the world since before written history.  See "Homer".

How has it failed, exactly? Bring up literally any statistic that has to do with human wellbeing, across the entire world, and compare it now with 100 years ago. And it's not a "western" civilization thing, they are only the latest link in a loooong chain of knowledge that stretches all the way back to the dawn of civilization itself. Modern "western" civilization could never have existed without the dozens of other major civilizations that existed before and concurrently with them across the planet. I self-identify myself as part of a western civ, but I don't need to attribute the entire modern world to it uniquely, which would be patently false.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Tagora on July 03, 2012, 08:36:20 pm
That's a typical white and/or privileged world view, and I'm paraphrasing "things have never been better" because while you're the guy wearing your comfy Nike's, you're not the guy who has worked for the past 5-10 years in a sweatshop making them.  Nonetheless, I think it's interesting every time someone asks me to validate my claims when there's no objective way you can possibly measure happiness spanning 3000~ years.  GG. You win. Enjoy white hegemony.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: [ptx] on July 03, 2012, 08:38:54 pm
Every major western civilization? Apart from the fall of Rome, when has there been a change/fall/decline/loss of western civilization? Or civilization as such? South American civilizations are an isolated case. We are still here and have been for thousands of years now in some form or shape, have we not? We have also improved on pretty much all aspects of being constantly.
Sure, there are ways to improve and we should never cease to look for those (i still think demarchy could be, to some extent, incorporated into our current form of democracy), but complaining and whining about how everything is conspired against us and how the world is horrible and bad and evil is, to my mind, outright retarded and makes you just an annoying dead weight to the progress of humanity as such.
Oh, and, if you think that complaining about stuff somehow makes you the part of the aware minority or some such thing and everyone who disagrees are sheeple - you couldn't be more wrong. Meh, most people i know, and in fact, most people over here, commenting on news portals and such, are like you - an irritating background buzz of whine and tears.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Tagora on July 03, 2012, 08:44:06 pm
Every major western civilization? Apart from the fall of Rome, when has there been a change/fall/decline/loss of western civilization? We are still here and have been for thousands of years now in some form or shape, have we not? We have also improved on pretty much all aspects of being constantly.
Sure, there are ways to improve and we should never cease to look for those (i still think demarchy could be, to some extent, incorporated into our current form of democracy), but complaining and whining about how everything is conspired against us and how the world is horrible and bad and evil is, to my mind, outright retarded and makes you just an annoying dead weight to the progress of humanity as such.
Oh, and, if you think that complaining about stuff somehow makes you the part of the aware minority or some such thing and everyone who disagrees are sheeple - you couldn't be more wrong. Meh, most people i know, and in fact, most people over here, commenting on news portals and such, are like you - an irritating background buzz of whine and tears.

Uh..oh a bad ass emerges who admits there's a fallacy in his argument

Quote
Apart from the fall of Rome

and then like boss, goes on to insult someone and dismiss independent thinking.  Ok, let's just persecute every dissenting voice like the chocolate chip cookie's, Her Himmler. 

Edit:  And I should add that though we have not lost the academics driving western civilization, I think you will find one thing common in all of those nations/civilizations that I mentioned:

Decadence, fading away from an imperialist, blood-hungry dominant society.  You don't even realize that's what your advocating and you tell me to look up history.  Why don't you go talk to a historian about how great the British empire was, or Rome.  We're the same except that we've prohibited slaves, contracting that out to multinationals who operate in third world countries ruined by western administration.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Nessaj on July 03, 2012, 08:50:37 pm
I think Reagan (I fucking hate the cunt, but still quoting him in this case) said something along those lines as well, that if ever the planet was threatened by some sort of outside "alien" race we could unite the planet in about a week.

Unification against a common enemy is (and will most likely always) be our only path of redemption. Therefore, space exploration > rest :wink:

Reagan actually mentioned parts of the 'alien threat'-stuff several times (at some University, to Gorbachev and more) in different speeches but the most known one is from his Disarmament speech at the UN general assembly in 1988 (or 87 cba google :P). Interesting fact though, Reagan him self insisted on adding the 'alien threat' part to his speech more than once, whereas his personal speech writer, Rhett Dawson, removed these comments from the original draft and wanted more Anti-Soviet rhetoric. Reagan though insisted on adding it back.

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Transcript of the Alien part in the UN speech:

“in our obsession with antagonisms of the moment, we often forget how much unites all the members of humanity. Perhaps we need some outside, universal threat to make us recognize this common bond. I occasionally think, how quickly our differences worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside this world. And yet, I ask is not an alien force ALREADY among us? What could be more alien to the universal aspirations of our peoples than war and the threat of war?”


Video of the alien segment in his speech: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag44dRO8LEA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag44dRO8LEA)
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: [ptx] on July 03, 2012, 09:00:21 pm
Fallacy in my argument? Where?

I am not dismissing independent thinking, i am encouraging critical thinking.
What is wrong with the current Western Civilization as a whole? The power of the corporations and shallow populism. What feeds it? The average voter. And, unlike what you would believe, the average voter is oh-so-"aware" of:
a) Banker conspiracy
b) New world order conspiracy
c) Evil government conspiracy
d) Some other government conspiracy
e) Their government acting as puppets for something else
f) Whatever-the-fuck-else you can come up with

Cheap populists make use of this to conjure up some sort of imaginary enemy and promise that they are the ones going to fight it. The masses vote for them, rather than the ones, who can actually offer real solutions.
"Aware" people spreading such "information" merely contribute to the problem.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Tagora on July 03, 2012, 09:11:44 pm
Fallacy in my argument? Where?

I am not dismissing independent thinking, i am encouraging critical thinking.
What is wrong with the current Western Civilization as a whole? The power of the corporations and shallow populism. What feeds it? The average voter. And, unlike what you would believe, the average voter is oh-so-"aware" of:
a) Banker conspiracy
b) New world order conspiracy
c) Evil government conspiracy
d) Some other government conspiracy
e) Their government acting as puppets for something else
f) Whatever-the-fuck-else you can come up with

Cheap populists make use of this to conjure up some sort of imaginary enemy and promise that they are the ones going to fight it. The masses vote for them, rather than the ones, who can actually offer real solutions.
"Aware" people spreading such "information" merely contribute to the problem.

Please look at my posts in this topic before replying.  To my knowledge I have yet to post one conspiracy theory, and thus far, one of two posters that have supported their statements with links providing supporting evidence of American aggression in domestic and international context.  I think this is a good place to end my role in this discussion as I'm not going to blur my own points, or as lawyers say, "I rest my case."
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: [ptx] on July 03, 2012, 09:15:55 pm
Read Murmillus posts then. In either case, it is not about conspiracy theories, it is about the way of thinking, one that sees almost solely the bad, exaggerates it and conjures up some more.
Dressing it up in more words and with references doesn't change the essence of it - a whine. Try constructive feedback instead.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Oberyn on July 03, 2012, 09:19:01 pm
Decadence, fading away from an imperialist, blood-hungry dominant society.  You don't even realize that's what your advocating and you tell me to look up history.  Why don't you go talk to a historian about how great the British empire was, or Rome.  We're the same except that we've prohibited slaves, contracting that out to multinationals who operate in third world countries ruined by western administration.

You believe civilization is cyclical, going through clearly delineated stages, but the examples you bring up couldn't be any more dissimilar. How exactly does the breakdown of European colonial empires following the 2 WW's compare to the fall of the Roman empire? I'd love to see the parrallels. Or between either of those and the US one. Of course that's completely ignoring civilizations like China, the Bantu expansion in sub-saharan Africa, Japan, Russia, the Ottomans, the Caliphate and all it's various offspring, etc going all the way back to the fucking Sumerians, that don't fit your eurocentric pattern.

If you can straight-faced compare the looting, raping, pillaging and enslaving done under the Roman empire or the concentration camps of the British to sweatshops in third world countries you're beyond rational arguements. Maybe you should see what they both look like, first hand. There's quite a clear difference. That mode of "domination" still exists in quite a few places...but I'm sure that's also the fault of "white" hegemony, somehow. Because obviously everything would be a peachy utopia of pure harmony otherwise.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: [ptx] on July 03, 2012, 09:22:20 pm
Besides, Rome didn't fall all at once, Eastern Rome survived long enough for most, if not all, of it's developments to be spread and thus maintained in other states/empires/kingdoms. Even more of a moot point. If you had used Southern American civilizations as an example, that could've worked, they are the isolated example of a lost civilization.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: LordBerenger on July 03, 2012, 09:39:18 pm
Peter X and Bloberyn are my newest idols now.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on July 03, 2012, 10:02:11 pm
Read Murmillus posts then. In either case, it is not about conspiracy theories, it is about the way of thinking, one that sees almost solely the bad, exaggerates it and conjures up some more.
Dressing it up in more words and with references doesn't change the essence of it - a whine. Try constructive feedback instead.

Ignore the bad, and we'll trip over ourselves, mid-stride full of happy thoughts, then smack, face smashed nose first into concrete curb, hysteria and chaos ensues, because those at the top aren't competent, they're far removed from reality, and to put too much faith in them, is to encourage their failings and the lack of worth the lives of we the people, because we can be bought and sold like cheap whores to live our little lives while they live their big lives, resting upon those peasants and their little insignificant dehumanised lives, or as some would like to think, we're all nought but cockroaches.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Tagora on July 03, 2012, 10:04:44 pm
Yes, it is that bad.

http://bigthink.com/ideas/24524

Don't write baseless assumptions.  Usually you have to establish "A" with "B" in arguments, neither of you have been able to do that.

27 million slaves exist today, and most of them are kept in conditions that are worse then concentration camps.  Read the transcript.  All of this is documented.  Obviously the number is an estimation because slavery is internationally illegal.  Still not convinced?  Search "Slavery in [your county/state/country here]". 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery

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And you also called me ignorant of previous western living conditions.  I've seen people living in dumps and landfills in person.  Honestly, why are you even posting without any supporting evidence other then your baseless assumptions?  I implore you to read about these issues before posting again.  Save me the effort, please.

Evidence:
http://www.demotix.com/news/35347/people-living-garbage-dump-cambodia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXqX-MAWIwU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxqbwebKpX4

Oh, you actually want physical violence because structural/institutional violence isn't good enough for your attention span?  Something that looks like the Middle Ages, or industrial revolution-era America?

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Photos: Rwanda massacres where hundreds of thousands were murdered while the west sat by, knowing this was going to happen before anyone was murdered. 
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Overdriven on July 03, 2012, 10:09:20 pm
That's a typical white and/or privileged world view, and I'm paraphrasing "things have never been better" because while you're the guy wearing your comfy Nike's, you're not the guy who has worked for the past 5-10 years in a sweatshop making them. 

Except in Britain you had Victorian era workhouses which had far worse conditions than the modern sweatshop. It's not like western civilisation didn't go through that already.

Also arguably they are a good thing. If you knew anything about development then you would know that. No one outside of popularist writers thinks sweatshops are a negative thing.

(click to show/hide)

What was your point with all this?

I'd say that only 27million slaves is a fucking ace achievement in the modern world with a population boom. Pulling from the same source you used 'Slaves and serfs made up around three-quarters of the world's population at the beginning of the 19th century.'. Reducing that to such a tiny fraction as 27million is fantastic. That's not to say that we shouldn't try and still help those 27 million, but in real terms things have never been better.

As to the argument of poverty. There has always been poverty and always will be. I hate these development goals from ridiculous charities that go something along the lines of 'to eradicate poverty by the year BLAH BLAH BLAH'. It's never going to happen, particularly with a booming population. Again that's not to say we shouldn't try and better the lives of many people, but we have to be realistic. Economic and population growth at is current level is never going to last. Even if the world evened out it's growth world wide to a middle average, the resources on the planet simply couldn't sustain that level of development for everyone (London alone requires an area twice the size of the UK to support all its needs, food, energy ect). That means there has to be a breaking point, where the world goes to shit, or people have to continue to suffer whilst others thrive. Short of a miraculous technological advance (not to be dismissed), there isn't a lot we can do about it. You can hardly ask countries to 'undevelop' and with the majority of African nations slipping further into poverty and development of many nations slowing down (ok ok India, Asian Tigers, China whatever are exceptions)  poverty is set to remain always.

What does that mean for America? Well they are in a pretty good place to ride all this out till the end of time. How do you judge the greatest country in the world? I don't think you can. But they certainly aren't any more powerful than a number of nations in the world but they are still up there at the top and that's a good place to be.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Tagora on July 03, 2012, 10:23:09 pm
Except in Britain you had Victorian era workhouses which had far worse conditions than the modern sweatshop. It's not like western civilisation didn't go through that already.

Also arguably they are a good thing. If you knew anything about development then you would know that. No one outside of popularist writers thinks sweatshops are a negative thing.

Wrong.

http://www.independent.org/publications/working_papers/article.asp?id=1369

Read the paper.

Quote
What was your point with all this?

Read the posts above.  He said that violence today and living conditions are nothing compared to previous ones.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Overdriven on July 03, 2012, 11:04:05 pm
Wrong.

http://www.independent.org/publications/working_papers/article.asp?id=1369

Read the paper.

Read the posts above.  He said that violence today and living conditions are nothing compared to previous ones.

Did you read all that? His arguments support sweatshop labour as it provides an above average standard of living for its workers. In Victorian Britain the poorhouses and workhouses were considered the worst of the worst and about as low as you could get bar living in the gutter though most of that is anecdotal of course. Whilst that was an interesting read it simply confirmed everything I've studied about it in development at University for three years. That sweatshops are actually good, especially when compared with the rest of a country.

Read the posts above.  He said that violence today and living conditions are nothing compared to previous ones.

As a world standard living conditions have gone up. There is a reason slums grew so big. People moving from the country still preferred city slums to working a farm and a tiny scrap of land split generation by generation into a large family. Naturally there are cases where people can't afford to move back, but as a whole the job opportunities and lifestyle are better. Violence still exists, but 27 million slaves living in violent conditions is a lot better than before and even though massacres ect still happen, I believe things are still more positive.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Tagora on July 03, 2012, 11:27:15 pm
I read the paper, thanks for asking.  What the paper shows is that the sweatshop model provides workers superior rages considering previous earnings, but the author also proposes that critics (like me) believe that those wages are non-negotiable and without providing a standard of living.  What you're saying about violence doesn't make sense.  If we look at who is harming other people in the world we would see that people from wealthy areas are carrying out wars which will make them even wealthier while the poor -- poorer.  And in instances like what happened in Rwanda, our ability to suddenly intervene in crises of liberty and genocide is absent, even though we have intervened in Iraq underneath the same pretense, where comparatively speaking, people were prosperous.  There is no logic in saying that there are quantifiable degrees of violence.  Violence is violence, and I don't believe that it's inherent.  I think violence is the result of failed diplomacy and politics.

Seriously, how can you justify materialism with, "well, they're earning on average 20 cents an hour more?"  Even prominent economists like Paul Kruger who formulated that idea can't establish a convincing argument that they're "better off".   

http://slaveryfootprint.org/

I have 23 slaves working for me.  How many work for you?
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Overdriven on July 03, 2012, 11:51:12 pm
I read the paper, thanks for asking.  What the paper shows is that the sweatshop model provides workers superior rages considering previous earnings, but the author also proposes that critics (like me) believe that those wages are non-negotiable and without providing a standard of living.  What you're saying about violence doesn't make sense.  If we look at who is harming other people in the world we would see that people from wealthy areas are carrying out wars which will make them even wealthier while the poor -- poorer.  And in instances like what happened in Rwanda, our ability to suddenly intervene in crises of liberty and genocide is absent, even though we have intervened in Iraq underneath the same pretense, where comparatively speaking, people were prosperous.  There is no logic in saying that there are quantifiable degrees of violence.  Violence is violence, and I don't believe that it's inherent.  I think violence is the result of failed diplomacy and politics.

Seriously, how can you justify materialism with, "well, they're earning on average 20 cents an hour more?"  Even prominent economists like Paul Kruger who formulated that idea can't establish a convincing argument that they're "better off".   

http://slaveryfootprint.org/

I have 23 slaves working for me.  How many work for you?

In terms of relative wage they are better off. In terms of standard of living and what is provided for them, plus negotiability well that's something that is very broadly debated. Heck my girlfriend (Indian) who has studied development and Anthro and worked with a number of development agencies in India that work with people in those conditions has found little wrong with them as a lot is provided for them. I can't argue that that is the same everywhere. But no absolute statements can really be made by either of us. By our standards it's still fucking shit, but then standards of living, wages and livelihoods are completely different between countries. By British standards there are still a lot of people living in poverty in this country. Things are relative. That little bit of money makes a big difference in a very poor country. You can't come at things from a purely western stand point. I'm more concerned by sex trafficking and slavery in that sense than I am sweatshops. Another thing my girlfriend avidly studies and is working with. In the sex trafficking world slavery is a very very real situation and there is no way to excuse that as 'better standard of living'.

Well no shit. But that doesn't mean violence has in any way increased. I still think from a violence standpoint things are better or just the same, certainly not worse than the overall history of humanity. But that is where you and me then differ. Violence is inherent. Otherwise we wouldn't have seen it throughout history dating all the way back to the beginning of time. Competition is inherent. What the modern age has perhaps given us is a better understanding of our morality and a smaller world to criticise violence. But that doesn't mean we still won't jump at the opportunity to kick our neighbours arse if they piss us off.

Also things like that slave survey are just an awareness gimmick. They are good for awareness but that's about it.
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Tagora on July 04, 2012, 12:04:57 am
In terms of relative wage they are better off. In terms of standard of living and what is provided for them, plus negotiability well that's something that is very broadly debated. Heck my girlfriend (Indian) who has studied development and Anthro and worked with a number of development agencies in India that work with people in those conditions has found little wrong with them as a lot is provided for them. I can't argue that that is the same everywhere. But no absolute statements can really be made by either of us. By our standards it's still fucking shit, but then standards of living, wages and livelihoods are completely different between countries. By British standards there are still a lot of people living in poverty in this country. Things are relative. That little bit of money makes a big difference in a very poor country. You can't come at things from a purely western stand point. I'm more concerned by sex trafficking and slavery in that sense than I am sweatshops. Another thing my girlfriend avidly studies and is working with. In the sex trafficking world slavery is a very very real situation and there is no way to excuse that as 'better standard of living'.

Well no shit. But that doesn't mean violence has in any way increased. I still think from a violence standpoint things are better or just the same, certainly not worse than the overall history of humanity. But that is where you and me then differ. Violence is inherent. Otherwise we wouldn't have seen it throughout history dating all the way back to the beginning of time. Competition is inherent. What the modern age has perhaps given us is a better understanding of our morality and a smaller world to criticise violence. But that doesn't mean we still won't jump at the opportunity to kick our neighbours arse if they piss us off.

Also things like that slave survey are just an awareness gimmick. They are good for awareness but that's about it.

I know the slave survey is but it does make a significant point.  I would agree with you on all points except for the last.  Violence is a learned behavior, not an inherited trait. 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7421959887856210325  (interesting vid and he does agree with some of your points that I forgot about hahaha)
http://www.marxists.org/archive/harman/1999/history/1_00_prologue.htm  (great book if you have the time to read it, it's obviously an alternative take on things)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/11/001106061128.htm

Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Kafein on July 04, 2012, 12:21:05 am
I wanted to say something easily identifiable as clever, but it's late so I'll go with "I think our time is awesome, we go to space, talk with people far away and modify nature to serve us", which is a tad harder to understand.


Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: isatis on July 04, 2012, 12:25:11 am
since when america is a country?
Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Momo on July 04, 2012, 01:58:28 am
America is a pig, just turn it upside down. Sums it up well.

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Title: Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on July 04, 2012, 02:14:02 am
America is a pig, just turn it upside down. Sums it up well.

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Just like the people living there :3