cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Elindor on June 28, 2012, 08:51:13 pm

Title: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Elindor on June 28, 2012, 08:51:13 pm
so as you all know chadz has decided to go back to something similar to the original xp system (with adjustments)....

Quote
2. Change the multi system
Yes, the multi system is silly. I have no trouble admitting that :]

It makes you stop playing when you drop to x1, and it forces you to continue playing when you have x5. 

Therefore, we'll change the system to something that rewards personal skill and risk more. It will be, among other factors, proximity based, as we had in the early versions of cRPG. It will definately not be purely kill based, we don't want to reward fraghunters over teamplayers. It will also not reward proximity leechers. You can expect this change soon.


Now, I am all for this... but I think (and I think many of you agree with this) that if this is done, *we will need an assist system* (that counts for less than kills) that helps avoid killwhoring and TK's from overzealous attempts to seal the killing blow.  Also, archers need this like a man in the desert need water - and im not even an archer.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Visconti on June 28, 2012, 08:51:58 pm
yes
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Overdriven on June 28, 2012, 08:52:17 pm
+1
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Penitent on June 28, 2012, 08:53:14 pm
Well, not the old system but some form similar to it.

I agree that there needs to be assists.  Also, a proximity system won't help archers so I hope that's taken in to account!

However it works, I hope it averages out to greater than or equal to the current xp/gold gain rate. :)
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Elindor on June 28, 2012, 08:59:40 pm
Well, not the old system but some form similar to it.

Edited
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: naked_mike on June 28, 2012, 09:16:28 pm
+1, especially now that I'm a filthy xbower.  Even before, though, I usually just skirmish and backstab mofos before fleeing.  I rarely kill.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Aleskander on June 28, 2012, 09:23:27 pm
WOT has a nice system, something like that would be nice, if it is possible in M&B
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on June 28, 2012, 09:54:31 pm
I wouldn't just say assits, i would say any damage dealt by your character as well as assits, however also cavalry kills on the horses. As often you can kill horses without any real benefit, and its a huge help killing GK horses as they cant backstab the whole team  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Elindor on June 28, 2012, 10:00:34 pm
Killing enemy horse could count as assist?
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Miwiw on June 28, 2012, 10:02:53 pm
Killing enemy horse could count as assist?
Only if its mounted.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Kung Fu Jesus on June 28, 2012, 10:04:00 pm
I agree the current system isn't ideal. But I think its better than the old system. So something in between has my support.

I do have a few concerns. Yes, assists need to happen. Not only for archers but for peasants. If a peasant can't get xp by proximity leeching, how's he ever going to earn money and level? I also don't see how it will be proximity based but not reward proximity leechers. How can a system tell the difference? I'm not really a fan of the proximity xp thing at all as it does not reward skill. I don't think it supports team play so much as it supports nut-hugging the guy thats 10-0. So people like Miley and Goretooth will just have 20 dudes buzzing around them as they move across the field.

I think little bonuses would be cool if its even possible. No annoying visual/auditory cues like BOOM HEADSHOT or anything dumb like that. But maybe an xp bonus or title next time you log in. For example, kill 5 dudes in 20 seconds, get a berzerker title and bonus for the next round. Get an arrow/bolt headshot, get a bonus. I don't think these should be massive bonuses or anything but just neat little things to spice up the gameplay.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Penitent on June 28, 2012, 10:19:03 pm
I would keep the current multi system, but make it more nuanced. 
Winning the round is what counts, so that will increase multi by 1x.
Killing a player would increase it by .2x
assist or horse kill is .1x

So you get 2 kills, 1 assist, and win the round.  So the next round you have 2.5x.

OR, maybe just xp/gold bonuses for killing/assisting with an extra bonus for winning, or something like that. 
Whatever the system, I hope it rewards individual skill as well as winning the round.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: San on June 28, 2012, 10:24:00 pm
@Garison

I agree with the idea of exp/gold per kill, I'd rather not have each kill have the same weight. Killing/damaging certain players is far more rewarding (for you and the team) than trying to chase after peasants. I would not like it if killing the random level 10 peasant would be the same as the level 35, 10 k/d boss fight.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Son Of Odin on June 28, 2012, 10:27:00 pm
Does this mean that the xp barn will be back?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: oprah_winfrey on June 28, 2012, 10:27:55 pm
@Garison

I agree with the idea of exp/gold per kill, I'd rather not have each kill have the same weight. Killing/damaging certain players is far more rewarding (for you and the team) than trying to chase after peasants. I would not like it if killing the random level 10 peasant would be the same as the level 35, 10 k/d boss fight.

I think that is going to make it a little too far. Good in concept though.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Allers on June 28, 2012, 10:29:06 pm
z0rz
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Slamz on June 28, 2012, 10:30:21 pm
Damage based with some subtractions for wounding teammates.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: LordBerenger on June 28, 2012, 11:07:01 pm
Hurr durr archer survived overhead gmaul shot from me and 2h gaysworder runs in and stab and steals my kill.


Yep we need assists pronto.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: //saxon on June 28, 2012, 11:10:28 pm
yes i totally agree with the assists!!
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Miley on June 28, 2012, 11:20:32 pm
Why do we need to count assists? Everyone will have assists then, and the TAB menu will be crowded. Unless it's for extra experience, then no.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Phew on June 28, 2012, 11:50:09 pm
@Garison

I agree with the idea of exp/gold per kill, I'd rather not have each kill have the same weight. Killing/damaging certain players is far more rewarding (for you and the team) than trying to chase after peasants. I would not like it if killing the random level 10 peasant would be the same as the level 35, 10 k/d boss fight.

Totally agree. Certain players are worth more to their team than 10 peasants, and damaging them should be rewarded much more heavily than one-shotting some peasant.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Overdriven on June 28, 2012, 11:56:10 pm
Why do we need to count assists? Everyone will have assists then, and the TAB menu will be crowded. Unless it's for extra experience, then no.

Some classes are based on assists whilst others get the finishing strikes more. It's good to have both accounted for in the score. Warband is quite outdated in the scoreboard not having assists aspect.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Taser on June 29, 2012, 12:03:48 am
I may be for assists. It just depends on how its implemented and how that affects the new system. Although it would be nice for some people to be recognized for their help to the team even without anything else involved.

Also with assists, if I and 2 other melee players along with 2 archers are attacking one enemy player, if all 5 of us land hits on that enemy player and I finish him off, do all 4 of the other players get assists as well? How would it work?
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: justme on June 29, 2012, 12:07:01 am
i would insert dehorsing too
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on June 29, 2012, 12:11:42 am
Personally i dont think its a good idea to go back to the old xp system, the current one is better as it promotes team work and playing as a team. Your team has to win in order for you to profit, with the old system team work doesnt matter, if someone is going to get a kill before you do then "accidently" tk them in order to be the one to get the kill and just recklessness in general. I kind of doubt chadz will actually implement a system that is even 25% similar to the old one i think hes just trolling to get people to read into what hes saying but in reality it will be quite differnt and hopefully better. But still a team play oriented system is best IMO.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Elindor on June 29, 2012, 12:16:34 am
Why do we need to count assists? Everyone will have assists then, and the TAB menu will be crowded. Unless it's for extra experience, then no.

Thats the point Miley...

New system will be performance based somewhat.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Penitent on June 29, 2012, 12:26:01 am
the current board shows only kills.  It would be MUCH cooler and better if it showed usefulness.  This has to take in to account assists, among other things if possible.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Weewum on June 29, 2012, 12:50:01 am
Does this mean that the xp barn will be back?
(click to show/hide)
I joined cRPG a bit recently, what is an xp barn?
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: TurmoilTom on June 29, 2012, 12:52:56 am
I joined cRPG a bit recently, what is an xp barn?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P32SuOJExR8
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Christo on June 29, 2012, 12:58:22 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P32SuOJExR8

Very good that somebody recorded it.

 :mrgreen:
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Weewum on June 29, 2012, 12:58:50 am
We need that.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Joker86 on June 29, 2012, 01:26:07 am
Actually I would just prefer the replacement of the standard gamemode from battle (with the target of killing all enemy players) to something more objective based, and accomplishing those objectives would win the round, not killing the enemies. That way the focus of the game would be moved away from pure killing to something more "team based", like rageball has. Killing still helps, but it's not the ultimative goal. (Next to other benefits such a system brings, like less delayers and horse crossbowmen hunting with infantry and a few more...)

That way a) gameplay could get improved, because people could perhaps start using their brain instead of hunting kills mindlessly, and b) rewarding kills and assists wouldn't lead to the same extend of teamkills and griefing like it would when killing was the objective.

But actually yes, reward assists. If I think about it properly, the fact how underpowered cavalry is on the paper, but how the retarded gameplay of most players makes cav still overpowered, I would suggest that horses are worth 2 or three players. Perhaps the mindless crowd will then realize there is no use in doing anything (especially charging) before the enemy cav is not taken care of.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Christo on June 29, 2012, 01:31:50 am
Conquest.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Joker86 on June 29, 2012, 01:39:49 am
Conquest.

Something like that, but with a higher (uneven) amount of flags, otherwise it would only enforce a big infantry meleecluster and reduce the importance of the other classes. Indeed, infantry could need a little importance buff compared to cavalry or ranged, but that would be too much. Having a few flags, three or five, would make the infantry important as shock troops or "anvil" respectively, but archers and cavalry could still contribute their bit.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Weewum on June 29, 2012, 01:53:39 am
Something like that, but with a higher (uneven) amount of flags, otherwise it would only enforce a big infantry meleecluster and reduce the importance of the other classes. Indeed, infantry could need a little importance buff compared to cavalry or ranged, but that would be too much. Having a few flags, three or five, would make the infantry important as shock troops or "anvil" respectively, but archers and cavalry could still contribute their bit.
It would only make archers less useful, cav woud be able to ride ahead and take flags ahead of infantry.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Zanze on June 29, 2012, 01:59:59 am
You can't just throw out a kill only experience gain because no one would ever retire, and no newbie would ever play again. Have fun killing full plate with a pitchfork because you can't even get enough xp to get str to use your preferred weapon. Just keep that in mind there...

Also, I support Garrison's idea. Having a low, but static multi and then increasing it based on damage done during the round. (For example, passing a certain threshold of damage would give a certain amount of xp bonus. At the same time, team damage will reduce the current counter for damage done.)

This kicks teamwounders and lolidcaboutteammatesirightswingalldaywith10PS in the nuts.

On that note, WTB NA <20 server!
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Taser on June 29, 2012, 02:06:06 am
I definitely support a conquest or flag domination mode. It'd be fun plus would be objective based. Course it might be like rageball with people focusing on the objective and the other half killing people like its TDM. I also wonder if it'd be possible to do TDM in crpg. Would be fun.

But conquest or something like that would be a fun game mode to add.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Joker86 on June 29, 2012, 03:09:14 am
It would only make archers less useful, cav woud be able to ride ahead and take flags ahead of infantry.

Why would archers be less useful? They can support the attack on a flag or can stand next to it and defend it by already picking the enemy over range.

And cavalry can only take a flag if there is no enemy cavalry nearby, and if they have cover from enemy archers. Otherwise no, they can't.

And it's not only about conquering a flag, you must hold it a certain time. No, I don't think cavalry can decide this on its own.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Bryggan on June 29, 2012, 03:19:47 am
Will the dead benefit, or will weaker characters (and players) have to linger around the good players with their shield up and not take any risks at all?  As a thrower I'd never try face off a charging cav because if I miss or just wound the horse I am so dead (which, by the way, makes it soooo much fun).  Plus I'm gradually getting better at melee, but if every time I try to face a half ass decent player I'm gonna lose out on 3-4 minutes exp and gold I might just run, and never, ever get good at melee, just going for the opportunity kills.

I like the idea of bonuses for ability, but not in exp and gold.  The guys getting all the kills have already mastered the fighting skills, plus probably have all +3 equipment already.  It would be uber cool if they got titles of something like that that doesn't make them even better fighters yet.  Then you wouldn't feel so bad when killed by a duke, but rightly disappointed in yourself if you're killed by a serf.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Adamar on June 29, 2012, 04:35:27 am
I think the xp system should simply be victory based, and the same value for all the winners.

I've suggested this in another thread: everyone would earn some xp and money in the end of the round, but the winning side would earn a lot more depending on how many teammates are still alive. This would be the ultimate motivation for teamplay I think, as people would have a compeling reason to back their teammates.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Elindor on June 29, 2012, 04:02:57 pm
86 votes, wow
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Tindel on June 29, 2012, 04:27:44 pm
Make a gamemode that works like Counterstrike.

Raiders vs Defenders

Raiders try to plant the powderkeg/torch to destroy objective A or B,  defenders try to stop them, or defuse/put out  the fire before it blows.


And talking multiplier, just remove it.
Make exp a flat 2.5X multiplier no matter who wins/looses.  Make the banner balance always put clans on same team, and tadaaaa we might get more teamwork. And no crying about getting steamrolled cause everyone gets same exp.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Elindor on June 30, 2012, 01:40:06 am
bump
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Frell on June 30, 2012, 01:42:17 am
I don't know.


I think assist would give spammers more incentive to hit everyone they possibly can, when they aren't actually the ones fighting the enemy until death.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Vingnir the Wanderer on June 30, 2012, 01:47:22 am
Actually I would just prefer the replacement of the standard gamemode from battle (with the target of killing all enemy players) to something more objective based, and accomplishing those objectives would win the round, not killing the enemies. That way the focus of the game would be moved away from pure killing to something more "team based", like rageball has. Killing still helps, but it's not the ultimative goal. (Next to other benefits such a system brings, like less delayers and horse crossbowmen hunting with infantry and a few more...)

That way a) gameplay could get improved, because people could perhaps start using their brain instead of hunting kills mindlessly, and b) rewarding kills and assists wouldn't lead to the same extend of teamkills and griefing like it would when killing was the objective.

But actually yes, reward assists. If I think about it properly, the fact how underpowered cavalry is on the paper, but how the retarded gameplay of most players makes cav still overpowered, I would suggest that horses are worth 2 or three players. Perhaps the mindless crowd will then realize there is no use in doing anything (especially charging) before the enemy cav is not taken care of.  :rolleyes:

I would prefer this as an addition of a new game mode, rather than a replacement to the current battle 'mode'.

As far as the assists, I'd just like to see an assist column on the score screen. 

Think about it, people play for KD, because KD is there on the screen.  If we had assists as well on our screen, maybe we'd get more teamplay,  and as some have suggested, if it paid in some way, you bet your ass people would try more teamplay/assists lol

but i'd settle for just SEEING them on the scorecard. 
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Frell on June 30, 2012, 01:50:08 am
PLEASE limit assist to 25%+ of damage. Otherwise well have idiots going around punching people just to get a share of assists.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Vingnir the Wanderer on June 30, 2012, 01:53:53 am
I don't know.


I think assist would give spammers more incentive to hit everyone they possibly can, when they aren't actually the ones fighting the enemy until death.

That IS a good point.

Maybe make team hits a negative modifier to the assist column...  just like tk's are negative to the kill column?

Btw, in a battle/war your SUPPOSED to hit everyone you can,

- Its not always about 'the ones fighting the enemy to the death' if you just made it, through your earlier dmg, a one shot proposition  for the guy on your side, turning into:

 'The one fighting the (same) enemy to the death at a big advantage because of what his teammate did ealier'...
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Vingnir the Wanderer on June 30, 2012, 02:04:19 am
PLEASE limit assist to 25%+ of damage. Otherwise well have idiots going around punching people just to get a share of assists.

^this
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Turkhammer on June 30, 2012, 03:45:34 am
Why do we need to count assists? Everyone will have assists then, and the TAB menu will be crowded. Unless it's for extra experience, then no.

Maybe you don't need assists but they are valuable to other players.  This game is too Rambo as it is.  Rewarding assists is a good idea.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Baggy on June 30, 2012, 07:44:21 am
Renown whore.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: bonekuukkeli on June 30, 2012, 10:47:54 am
I find myself talking about this almost daily basis with my friends. We love to kill horses, but as it doesn't show anywhere in scoreboards... it's quite discouraging. It would be cool to have 1 row for killing blows, 1 for horse kills and 1 for assists. People could clearly see that killing horses have affect in outcome of battles and low lvl / not so good players can get nice amount of assists when they teamplay instead of running to death round after round and see that sad 0-5 scoreboard.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Micah on June 30, 2012, 10:56:03 am
Renown whore.
no you!
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Teeth on June 30, 2012, 11:03:48 am
Time for displaying damage dealt on the scoreboard and win/loss ratio on the website. Also use win/loss ratio for balancing teams.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Ubereem on June 30, 2012, 11:20:09 am
as long as it doesnt take any longer to reach 31 then idc what they do. also on siege what are they gonna do? in siege u need certain number of troops to guard the flag while the rest of the team guards the walls. u know just incase there are flag ninjas or enemies break the line. how are they gonna deal with this? seriously if everyone guards the walls then the flag is wide open. i have a bad feeling about this change
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Eugen on June 30, 2012, 11:34:11 am
Change? Good or bad?! Lets see. Chad was quite mysterious about this change again. It will be sugar, but it won't be sweet...

I support:
+ keep XP based on teamperformance win/lose as main factor - dead or alive.
Becouse teamplay should be rewarded!
+ add XP bonus for a number of dealt damage (not kills) accumulated over the whole round on person or horse only if gained without teamhitting.
This would add motivation to be active in combat and to be careful whilst fighting. And it would counter killwhoring, what is good for everyone.


I would not like:
- XP bonus for being close to action
This is bad for archers, cav, scouts and scirmishers and only good for mindless mob action. On many occations shure its good to gang up, but not always.
- XP bonus for kills
becouse of egomaniac killhunters ruining teamplay.

also possibly nice to have:
+ penalice teamkilling with cancelling XP bonus in this round.
+ show horsekill on scoreboard
+ show assists on scoreboard


EDIT:
Possible Formula for XP gain per damage dealt (with teamhitting cancelling the bonus, maybe give a tolarance for minor teamhits):

(damage dealt x 2) x actual multiplier added to total experience.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Micah on June 30, 2012, 01:18:24 pm
oh man .. am i really the onlyone that thinks this current multy-system is good as it is ? it is so easy and serves the purpose that i call it a genious strike in this game ...

... pls consider that each and every multy system will have their pros and cons .. and the more complicated the more exploitable and abusable it is !!! there will be only more problems if you try to implemented any of these complicated ideas ... including proximity based xp gain ! the problems you are talking about (ramboing/leeching w/e) is not the mechanics , its the players ! and player based problems should be dealt with at its source not with indirect mechanics changes ... leechers/teamhitters and also rambos can and should be made responsible on community base , its a community issue ! you can talk in chat , you can report to admin,m problem solved.

btw: we got really ambitous and good admins (that has to be said more often imo) who you can talk to , we got a high level discussions going on the forums (well also some troll threads but not as much as in other gamer forums) , we got popular and nice devs as that actually do care for the community and are closer to the playerbase than 99% of all other MMOs.

pls ask yourself what it is that you really want. and ask yourself what you really need, what this game and its community needs. if youre frustrated because your team didnt support you when you was alone fighting vs 5 guys ... then mb you did rambo a bit to much .. do not try to punish others for your own failures, thats not good man =/

NOW regarding the xp gain mechanics rewarding assists ; unless anyone shows me another simple(!) and genious approach to do proximity/assist based xp gain mechanics that does include playstyles like
"the lonely sniper" ala ArtemRUS ,
"the brave Flanker" ala Kinngrim
if there is shielders who do his job and suck damage for others ... will that be taken into account ? if there is a shieldwall getting hit by 100 arrows when they should be going for some rangers or make a passage through enemy lines ... will they get penalized?
and many other styles that will not benefit from proximity based xp gain
and many bad playstyles that will benefit from proximity based xp gain

i say there is no fair system that tries to map all the different playstyles possible and it will always be exploitable and abusable until you use an abstraction which the current approach does.

sorry for the Wall .. but i felt like it needed to be said .. and i could even continue with some more stuff but noone would ever read it  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Idzo on June 30, 2012, 02:38:07 pm
Time for displaying damage dealt on the scoreboard and win/loss ratio on the website. Also use win/loss ratio for balancing teams.

This. +1
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Leshma on June 30, 2012, 02:43:16 pm
In the last few months autobalance simply isn't working. Very often one team wins with 30-0 (when there's over 100 people playing) and 20-0 (40vs40).
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on June 30, 2012, 02:57:45 pm
Assists would be surely done for damage to non-ally hits, or the current ally teamwound system could be made stricter to 3 instead of 5 chances.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Micah on June 30, 2012, 05:25:01 pm
you guys reallize that soreboard and xp gain are 2 different things ? not to be taken personally but this is just a broken diskussion
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Smoothrich on June 30, 2012, 06:00:10 pm
I really like the system of score tracking and notifications for assists that happen on Rageball now, though I think sometimes it can crowd the screen too much showing what everyone is doing.

After playing with all these great additions though, I had an idea that's been mentioned a few times in this thread, and I do think is really good.  To supplement whatever the team reward will be for winning (which I think should still be the primary method of experience gain), along with proximity kills (something I honestly don't like very much at all)  it would be fantastic if the devs implemented situational, objective/support based rewards, especially if the kill log notified you (and only you!) of what you did.  And to have all of these little bonuses go into a pool called "points" like in TF2 I guess or similar games, that would at the end be converted into round/map bonus experience.  This should be the reward for individual play, instead of going by kills.  Cuz goddamn, I power level fast enough rolling multis when I am a cav player, that would just make it aggressively more imbalanced.

For example, a buff to objective play on siege would be getting a few extra points when you kill an attacker who was capturing the flag, or vice versa.  Wall defenders/attackers would get proximity experience, and flag defenders/attackers would get these, keeping things in parity if possible and balancing the gametype.  And it won't be so awful of a feeling to defend the flag in an epic back and forth for the last 2 minutes, only to lose, cuz of all the points you'd have gotten.

There's probably a million things you could think of for the battle servers, but a few examples would be dehorsing a cavalry player, headshots, support damage, going on a killstreak in a short time period, inflicting most overall damage (maybe not, because ya, cav lol), maybe even saving teammates about to die if that was possible.  If this stuff could be tracked live on the server, I have no idea if it does this or not just know that you guys can pull out the stats to evaluate balance (while ignoring NA), everything should definitely be reduced for cav players to compensate for their speed bonuses and overall cheesy OP gimmick style of play.

You guys definitely need to be very careful if you decide to go with proximity death EXP, as it can be fun to watch it go up all round and all and people can say it "rewards teamwork" but honestly all the maps and matches from that era more often then not deevolved into gimmick exp grind camping of awful places in maps or just bad maps in general (exp bridge, exp barn for quick examples), devalues skirmishing or cavalry player's points compared to their contribution, and just never really seemed that good to me to begin with.  Either do it globally (or close enough) or not at all.

Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Kajia on June 30, 2012, 07:05:59 pm
points will never make a good excuse to play a game, it will always corrupt the players behavior (as well as money is not a natural incentive to work, duh).

I don't want to play for k/d, nor would I really want to play for assist points, even if I'd get more of them compared to my kill now. instead I would love to play for fun, that I have with some good teamplay and funny people who also don't play for sheer killing. I hate if on any server the main reason for rage is the mindless kill-whoring mindset of about 40% to 60% of the players. most of the time it doesn't even help the team!
I know that the definition of fun is very diverse, everyone has his own. and that's exactly the reason why killing/assists should not be rewarded! I strongly believe people would change their attitude towards mindless killing if the rewards would be dropped completely!

XP could be gained like the skill-development solution in EVE, where you can pick a skill and it will increase based on real-time. I found this system very out-of-the-box and satisfying. why not make our XP-bar rise constantly, for one character at a time, for example? why not?

and I really don't care about people who say: "but you have to gain something for your effort!"
I'm very sure that most of us play this game because of other people, not for the game itself or some abstract numbers! and IF you do, ask yourself: why? isn't it weird?

I don't want my team-play effort put into a straitjacket. having numbers on everything and every action in REAL-life is bad enough.


edit:
real honest effort doesn't need an external reward.
read wikipedia on overjustification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect)
Quote
people pay more attention to the external reward for an activity than to the inherent enjoyment and satisfaction received from the activity itself.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Banok on June 30, 2012, 08:04:15 pm
would also be nice to see a damage score, I wonder which classes we would see at the top ;)

score = damage done to enemies - (damage done to allies *2)

ofc damage to un mounted horses shouldn't count ;p

Conquest.

+10
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Micah on June 30, 2012, 09:57:18 pm
points will never make a good excuse to play a game, it will always corrupt the players behavior (as well as money is not a natural incentive to work, duh).

I don't want to play for k/d, nor would I really want to play for assist points, even if I'd get more of them compared to my kill now. instead I would love to play for fun, that I have with some good teamplay and funny people who also don't play for sheer killing. I hate if on any server the main reason for rage is the mindless kill-whoring mindset of about 40% to 60% of the players. most of the time it doesn't even help the team!
I know that the definition of fun is very diverse, everyone has his own. and that's exactly the reason why killing/assists should not be rewarded! I strongly believe people would change their attitude towards mindless killing if the rewards would be dropped completely!

XP could be gained like the skill-development solution in EVE, where you can pick a skill and it will increase based on real-time. I found this system very out-of-the-box and satisfying. why not make our XP-bar rise constantly, for one character at a time, for example? why not?

and I really don't care about people who say: "but you have to gain something for your effort!"
I'm very sure that most of us play this game because of other people, not for the game itself or some abstract numbers! and IF you do, ask yourself: why? isn't it weird?

I don't want my team-play effort put into a straitjacket. having numbers on everything and every action in REAL-life is bad enough.


edit:
real honest effort doesn't need an external reward.
read wikipedia on overjustification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect)
^this
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Elindor on July 01, 2012, 02:03:43 am
amazing how many votes this has gotten...
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: KaffeKalle on July 01, 2012, 09:49:08 pm
As long as I dont get 4-5 times less xp and, more importantly gold than the clans who go on a siegeserver and Xp-farm for hours I will be happy with whatever new xp-system is put in place. Actually losing money running around in gear worth 30k total...
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Farrix on July 01, 2012, 11:59:38 pm
Ok, Haven't read all these other posts but I love the idea of adding assists and wanted to contribute my thoughts on where chadz and this mod could go.

So we basically are talking about making a different way of rewarding XP/gold. We need to take the stats we do keep track of: Kills/Deaths, and add a value to them. We need to keep track and display additional stats and add a value to them. At the end of a round, the system would have a number for each player. Additional statistics to keep track of could include: Damage (given and received), Headshots for the ranged fella's, Couches for cavalry, and Assists (would have to be a derivative of the damage done and time elapsed until the kill, possibly bring distance into the equation), Team kills, and Team wounds.

Dg=damage given Dr=damage received H=headshots C=couches A=assists K=kills D=deaths Tk=team kills Tw=team wound

(K+Dg+H+C+A)-(Dr+D+Tk+Tw)= A value that can translate into gold or xp.

What could really be cool about adding multiple new statistics would be how we could utilize generations. I'm gen 8 right now I think and what I'm imagining with a new system would be to take those 8 gens and they would translate into 7 points, similar to heirloom points. You can see on my equation above that there are 5 positive statistics, and 4 negative statistics. These seven points from retiring that I would have accumulated could then be applied as multipliers to any one of those 5 positive stats. Here's the kicker though, for each positive multiplier you add, you'd have to add one to the 4 negative stats. You could also make exp and gold distributed separately, meaning that your gen multipliers I've been discussing could be applied to the recorded statistics resulting in either gold or experience. You would still receive both but you would be able to dictate which is a higher priority for you. Imagine being able to look on the site and see all your accumulated stats from a gen and create for yourself, how you want to receive your exp, your gold. This could allow you to create exactly the type of character you play, and to be rewarded according to how well you play your class.

I'd like ya'll to consider this. If the fundamental idea is good, please say so and proceed to discuss what these values for new stats could be and which statistics we should include.

Edit: I was just thinking that this idea may leave peasants out to dry in the first few levels. If we added a proximity based value for enemy deaths that you couldn't add a multiplier to, that was a minimal value, enough to get peasants through the first 10 levels, it would fix this problem.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Gawin on July 02, 2012, 12:13:00 am
Capture the Flag? But we tried that, and pure speed builds were a bitch
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Bryggan on July 02, 2012, 12:23:28 am
I think it's stupid to punish early deaths or just getting wounded.  Somebody has to be the first on the ladder or the one pushing through the choke point.  And if I lose gold and exp just because of a well placed headshot, I'll write a 'nerf archer' post immediately, and I never want to nerf archers.

So a system that rewards the guys who already got it all- ie heirloomed gear plus thousands of hours play that make them the masters that they are- is not very encouraging for new or average, or just plain crap players.  We don't mind being fodder, but being useless is punishment enough, and we don't need any penalties on top of our shame.

I think we should do like single-player, and use the above calculations (not including death or wounds, don't want everyone turtling; that's my specialty) for Renown.  Renown doesn't help you in battle, but impresses the shit out of your friends and strikes fear in the heart of your enemies.  Ooh, it would be nice if the renown thing took the level of the person you killed into account.  Then peasant chasers won't be the heroes they pretend to be.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Farrix on July 02, 2012, 09:06:11 am
So your solution for chadz talking about how to fix the distribution of exp and gold is to introduce renown, which apparently changes nothing about exp/gold. So then what is your solution for spreading the exp and gold?
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: dreadnok on July 02, 2012, 10:06:33 am
Why would archers be less useful? They can support the attack on a flag or can stand next to it and defend it by already picking the enemy over range.

And cavalry can only take a flag if there is no enemy cavalry nearby, and if they have cover from enemy archers. Otherwise no, they can't.

And it's not only about conquering a flag, you must hold it a certain time. No, I don't think cavalry can decide this on its own.

I dont know. But i do know that the op was referring to siege. Why worrying bout cav on siege is goofy.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Joker86 on July 02, 2012, 10:12:52 am
I dont know. But i do know that the op was referring to siege. Why worrying bout cav on siege is goofy.

Where do you read that he was referring to siege?  :?
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Micah on July 02, 2012, 11:05:26 am
whats with peasants ?
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Elindor on July 02, 2012, 05:37:49 pm
dread im not referring to anything except the quote from chadz....
what he was referring to I do not know, but I assume ALL game modes since he did not specify.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Elindor on July 03, 2012, 07:18:51 pm
damn 158 votes....

maybe devs have seen this by now? :)
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Bryggan on July 07, 2012, 10:34:11 pm
So your solution for chadz talking about how to fix the distribution of exp and gold is to introduce renown, which apparently changes nothing about exp/gold. So then what is your solution for spreading the exp and gold?

My idea is to do what Kajia said, and a have a real time eve based system.  Then the casual gamer might log on and find they've jumped from level 11 to level 29 in the two weeks they weren't playing, but they'll still be shitty players because they'll still have no actual game-playing skill.  But at least they won't be as shitty as they were.  As I'm typing this, I realize that kinda falls apart when its time to retire.

So just keep the same system, but have your multi drop by one when you lose, or maybe double or triple the income but only have it go to X2, because all is fine and well when you win some and lose some, but it really sucks when you have a run of bad luck and are always on the losing team and your small cache of money disappears and you end up running around in a peasant shirt with a cudgel.

In other words, I dunno.

Edit: No, I'm going back to Kajia's plan.  Loom points are enough reason to retire.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: TR_Ragnarok on July 07, 2012, 11:28:43 pm
Will the system work on how much damage was given to gain exp?
Support players such as range prob wont get the final hit will still get exp for contributing to their team.
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: Vicious666 on July 09, 2012, 05:41:03 am
i proposed the share kill/xp like a year and half ago but seams was unpossible to realize

dunno now
Title: Re: New Multi System will need ASSISTS
Post by: betard_lulz on July 09, 2012, 06:19:50 am
so what else chadz? what are you going to nerf now? ffs whens the last time anything positive was done with an update?