cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Penitent on June 28, 2012, 05:02:19 pm
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Shield users are become more and more popular (on NA at least). I see lots of them in the servers, and many trades on the marketplace forum are for turning in armor/bows/poles/etc for 1h and shield gear.
This thread is just to discuss possible reasons why. Do you think there was an increase in ranged and now people are taking shields to compensate? Are people just bored with their 2h/pole characters and they are now rolling alts?
Do you think its a phase or here to stay? Has anyone else noticed?
Discuss
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Shielders dont have to block manually, therefore they can at least enjoy 1 thing. Of course the class isnt easy because of that as they have to look out for the attack timing to get a good hit in.
I wouldnt complain about too many shielders, I actually see it as normal that everyone uses a shield.
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Shielders dont have to block manually, therefore they can at least enjoy 1 thing. Of course the class isnt easy because of that as they have to look out for the attack timing to get a good hit in.
I wouldnt complain about too many shielders, I actually see it as normal that everyone uses a shield.
Yes they do have advantages and disadvantages. I don't think it's a good or bad thing personally. I use a shield primarily, and I have to say it is a bit harder to fight another shielder (takes longer) unless you have an axe.
I predict a surge in 'shieldbreaker' weapon popularity soon on the market and in game. :)
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Warning wall of text. Just pick a paragraph
What I've noticed over the years is that classes move in "seasons"
From my experience in cRPG (at the time of my joining this mod, Oct-ish 2010), it was shielder central. If you didn't have a shield, you got shot. This was the phasing out of the archer era.
From what I've seen it's been
archers > shielders > horses > polearms > 2h > archers/ranged > crossbowery (the age of the Chaos Operators) > horse archers + crossbows > shielders +2h > horses > polearms (and then the nerf) > horses + shielders (current)
This is pulling off the trend off the top of my head (based on failing memory and natural predators). Of course the 2h heroes have really persisted throughout the trends, simply that their tactics change and hybrids are used (instead of pure 2h).
At the time of the Chaos crossbros, I noticed the increase in horse archers to naturally prey on the immobility of the Operators (when they needed the reload). From there, we saw some foot archers spring up to counter that, which lead to more lancer cav to prey on the archers etc.
As cRPG grows and matures (in development, nothing to say about the community), the combat becomes a more even spread, as fighters realize after a bit that joint operations by several different classes functions better, instead of one merry-go-round of counter-classing (yes it's cool to see a legion with identical armor and weapons, but there is no variation in combat potential, which means easy defeat from ONE predator).
The only major exception which ran counter to my trend model (that crude arrow thing up three paragraphs) is the [horses > polearm > horses] section. I assume it's because the polearms got the nerf (which we had coming), but nothing came to the cavalry, which is - as of now - severely overpowered. They got an indirect buff simply because their melee counter-class has been compromised (because people haven't yet adapted; give it time), range remains a viable counter to horses, but are vulnerable to the speeding, backstabbing cherry picker poopooheads (I'm one) that represent the cav class (both scout and mounted infantry).
Right now, shielders are a fad. Much like the FotM weapons that you find throughout the months of gameplay. Remember when the Bec de Corbin with the fucking biggest dildo on the sex market? Now check the marketplace and see how many are flooding it.
Shielding will have its time, axes and polearms will come into play to counteract the shielding crew. Then the 2h heroes will have their age again. This is just the way of cRPG.
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Shielders increasing is good, makes my teammates survive longer (hopefully) and not just die instantly to arrows or simply getting gangbanged!
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Shielders increasing is good, makes my teammates survive longer (hopefully) and not just die instantly to arrows or simply getting gangbanged!
But... so does the enemies?
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I notice a few more, but that's better than when I only saw 4-5 shielders on a 60+ man server a little while back.
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So many throwers in NA, it's hard to see why some people don't carry a shield.
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But... so does the enemies?
Still, longer fights with more people surviving is a bonus for my class! :)
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somehow they have been "buffed" constantly in the last 18 months:
glancing chances decreased
loomed armor nerf
lightspeed stab/leftswing
throwing revival
polestagger remove
slow weapons are affected more by turning limit
personally I hate them more then archers right now :twisted:
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somehow they have been "buffed" constantly in the last 18 months:
glancing chances decreased
loomed armor nerf
lightspeed stab/leftswing
throwing revival
polestagger remove
slow weapons are affected more by turning limit
personally I hate them more then archers right now :twisted:
That's an interesting perspective. I can see how glance chances can be considered a buff for low damage weapons (of all types, but 1h weapons are generally lower damage) but how are the others buffs?
-Loomed armor effects everyone, not shielders
-the left-swing is fast but the stab is shitty (and neither have been changed)
-most throwing weapons have "shield breaker" tags, so they hurt shields more when buffed
-polestagger remove does not buff shielders, it makes polearms slightly less effective
-short weapons are affected more by the spin nerf...this hurt 1h users the most
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Shielder popularity most likely due to increased amount of pure throwers.
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That's an interesting perspective. I can see how glance chances can be considered a buff for low damage weapons (of all types, but 1h weapons are generally lower damage) but how are the others buffs?
-Loomed armor effects everyone, not shielders
-the left-swing is fast but the stab is shitty (and neither have been changed)
-most throwing weapons have "shield breaker" tags, so they hurt shields more when buffed
-polestagger remove does not buff shielders, it makes polearms slightly less effective
-short weapons are affected more by the spin nerf...this hurt 1h users the most
-nerf on loomed armor further decreases glancing chances
-I am pretty sure the stab speed has been increased recently, atleast it feels like this (same goes for 2h)
-the other melee classes dont even have a shield against throwing therefore they get hit directly
-polearms are counter class to shielder - nerf on polearms means "buff" for shielders (example: long maul - its no longer possible to hit the same guy twice, because he recovers faster, then I can land a 2nd overhead (which was a silly mechanic anyway)
-well try to play with longmaul against shielder now, the moment you start an overhead the enemy can just move left or right and you cannot hit him - same goes for great maul
shielder have been "buffed" indirectly by nerfing their counter-part
I am not saying shielder are op now, but compared to how it was fighting shielders over a year ago it has becone significantly harder :D
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I've always had trouble with shielders ever since I started so this makes me sad.
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-nerf on loomed armor further decreases glancing chances
-I am pretty sure the stab speed has been increased recently, atleast it feels like this (same goes for 2h)
-the other melee classes dont even have a shield against throwing therefore they get hit directly
-polearms are counter class to shielder - nerf on polearms means "buff" for shielders (example: long maul - its no longer possible to hit the same guy twice, because he recovers faster, then I can land a 2nd overhead (which was a silly mechanic anyway)
-well try to play with longmaul against shielder now, the moment you start an overhead the enemy can just move left or right and you cannot hit him - same goes for great maul
shielder have been "buffed" indirectly by nerfing their counter-part
I am not saying shielder are op now, but compared to how it was fighting shielders over a year ago it has becone significantly harder :D
I think I see what you are saying, but I disagree that polearms are the counter to shields. Polearms are the counter to cav mostly, and cav is the counter to shields (so are all axe weapons).
I guess glance nerf was kind of a buff for shielders, but even back before that when I had 6PS and any decent 1h weapon I hardly ever glanced.
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well I play mostly siege :oops:
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I think I see what you are saying, but I disagree that polearms are the counter to shields. Polearms are the counter to cav mostly, and cav is the counter to shields (so are all axe weapons).
I guess glance nerf was kind of a buff for shielders, but even back before that when I had 6PS and any decent 1h weapon I hardly ever glanced.
Polearms are a counter to shielders because they have the best weapons with bonus to shields.
Nubert, I am curious though why do players recover faster from a long maul now?
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The above two posts:
Ah yes, I see what you mean. I play siege a lot too.
Personally though, if I knew I was going to come up against a lot of shields and I could pick any class, I would choose 1h/shield and take an axe. Polearms are good against shields because they have the long breaking weapons, but I usually die when using them once the shielder gets up close and starts spamming. :(
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Polearms are a counter to shielders because they have the best weapons with bonus to shields.
Nubert, I am curious though why do players recover faster from a long maul now?
due to removal of polestun modifier x1.5, if thats what they changed about polestun, not sure though, if that ever existed :mrgreen:.
Well couldn't land many overheads anyway, my long maul is already in the armory :P
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due to removal of polestagger modifier x1.5, if thats what they changed about polestagger, not sure though, if that ever existed :mrgreen:.
Well couldn't land many overheads anyway, my long maul is already in the armory :P
I don't think the long maul ever had polestagger since it has knockdown.
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I don't think the long maul ever had polestagger since it has knockdown.
mhh yeah maybe it just felt like it because 2nd overhead didnt register (turning limit).
But I guess you know what I mean, before the recent changes the guy who was hit by overhead could not fight back directly, he had to hope to get out of reach or that the second overhead would miss.
The mechanic was silly for sure, but essential for survival when playing with long maul.
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I am not sure if the number of shielder is growing, I'd say that it really depends on time/day, I remeber playing maps with 5-6 shielders in 50 players team, other time team consisted of almost 40% of shields. Personally I prefer to have a shielder by my side then spamming zerg two hander, I have to watch all the time not to block his swings with shield accidenatly becouse some of them just don't think doing a right swing when they have ally on their right side can stop the attack on ally. Not to mention greater overall survavibility, chance to get shot is singnificly lower, not like shielders are immune to range but as we all know it does help.
Havn't played for last few days too much but I didn't noticed any change to stab. Overheads are crap for everyone. Enemie at facehugging distance can easly avoid getting hit with overhead from 1h sword, to be honest I used to miss quite a lot of whose attacks but now it is much more harder. If someone doesn't have a shield to grant himself basic cover from range then it was only his choice and foult, convert few points and there you go, problem solved. Maybe hitting with mauls is more difficult but definatly you can KO and finish helpless oponent with second attack. Removing polestagger probably slightly decreased the amount of kills that avarage polearmer can get but I see it as more nerf to blob then individuals (not counting cheap backpedalling right swing spamming wankers).
O yeah, pity that tincans with longest weapons are no longer invincible in melee :rolleyes:
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somehow they have been "buffed" constantly in the last 18 months:
glancing chances decreased
Honestly I've always seen this as a nerf to 1-handers. Here's why:
Though they decreased glance chances, they increased the amount of damage that armor absorbed. So less hits glance, but you need more hits to kill someone.
The only time you really glanced was if you had a cut weapon, relatively low strength and you were fighting someone with heavy loomed armor. In those situations cut weapons are as useless now as they were before the change.
What that change really did was reduce the effectiveness of cut weapons against medium armor, which is the most common armor in the game. On medium armor you never glanced anyway, but now you need more hits to kill someone. Not really a buff to 1-handers there.
Unfortunately, pierce and blunt damage types are far superior to cut unless you are fighting someone with no armor. Cut damage only really starts to shine when you are REALLY stacking strength. High cut weapons benefit the most from stacked strength due to them gaining the most from Power strike (due to power strike being a percentage-based increase). 1-handers (who generally have lower str due to shield requirements) also suffer from less of a damage increase from power-strike due to the lower initial damage of their weapons.
It's unfortunate, but after the change you're always better off with a blunt or pierce weapon as a 1-hander than cut.
Here are some examples:
12 str 4 PS 100 wpf armed with military pick (30 pierce) vs 30 armor:
average damage: 24.5
12 str 4 PS 100 wpf armed with military pick (30 pierce) vs 50 armor:
average damage: 15
18 str 6 PS 100 wpf armed with military cleaver (35 cut) vs 30 armor:
average damage: 29.5
18 str 6 PS 100 wpf armed with military cleaver (35 cut) vs 50 armor:
average damage: 17.5
In this example, the pick user is using a weapon that does (5!) less points of damage AND has 2 less points of power strike, but the damage levels aren't far off.
24 str 8 PS 100 wpf armed with steel pick (32 pierce) vs 30 armor:
average damage: 38
24 str 8 PS 100 wpf armed with steel pick (32 pierce) vs 50 armor:
average damage: 27.5
24 str 8 PS 100 wpf armed with military cleaver (35 cut) vs 30 armor:
average damage: 35
24 str 8 PS 100 wpf armed with military cleaver (35 cut) vs 50 armor:
average damage: 21.5
Give him a steel pick and the same exact str values and you see how terrible cut is.
All the armor change did was make your average fight last longer - which is dumb.
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Not to mention that looms for 1h weapons are a little off.
Looming a pierce/blunt weapon gives you +3 in those respective damage types, a much greater benefit than looming a cut weapon. In addition, many of those weapons are considered maces/hammers, so they get an increase in weight, allowing for them to easily stun other 1h weapons while maintaining a high weapon speed. This would be fixed once the 1h weapons have reliable stabs, though!
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In Na BAttle we have:
The most Shielders we've had in months
Slightly following the HUGE upsurge in throwers. THe most throwers since the golden age of throwing before the great throwing nerf. (not close to how many we had back then... it was everybody...)
We also have plenty of other ranged. It is only natural to go 1h shield.
The odd thing is the huge amount of cavalry we have. we need the ranged to coutner cavalry, it is the only offensive counter to cav (Pikes are DEFENSIVE counters. the horse has to run into it.) We have the lowest amount of pure 2h/pure polearms ever. Of course we still have them, haha they'll never die. But there is proportionally less than ever in NA.
HERE'S THE THING. I think it is a great thing there are more shielders. I've been playing on an archer recently, and archery is all about teamwork. If I have 1h/shield and a hoplite working together with me, I am safe to shoot every single cav down without threat to me. When they engage enemy players without shields, I get free shots on the enemy that are guaranteed not to hit my teammates. If the guy charges at me, they hit him in the back. This is small scale teamwork, 3 players. But we amplify our effectiveness as I follow them around through battle. I'm never more than 15 meters from the melee fights as an archer. And I feel safe.
The more and more teamwork you see from shielders working with ranged teammates, It is beautiful. They both survive much longer AND get much more kills.
(and if they're in NH they probably are 1h shielders WITH throwing, heh)
Now you're going to hate me hard, but If I could set up a 30 vs 30 team match. My team would be 10 archers and 20 1h/shielder + throwing hybrids (21/15 build). Nothing else. No 2h, no cav, nothing. It would facestomp everything. Every shielder would have 2 stacks of heavy throwing axes. The archers would always target enemy cav and dehorse them before the throwers would have to throw many. Teamwork wise, I don't know why there aren't more of this. I suppose it might lose to a pure cavalry team, but that would depend only on the map. I don't know of anything it isn't safe from and counters hard. the 1h/shield/throw hybrids are so safe and powerful in teamplay. Individually they might make little impact, but 5 of them working together is crazy. They get exponentially stronger.
One day we'll see the FoTM flood of 1h/shield/throwing hybrids, and it'll stick.
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The more shielders the better the game would look and feel, imo. Looks more realistic (than a bunch of kuyak clones with 2h), fights last longer, less random deaths, lets teams do nice looking but mostly useless shield walls etc.
I think it'd make much more sense if the majority of infantry were shielders with some 2h and polearm players.
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The more shielders the better the game would look and feel, imo. Looks more realistic (than a bunch of kuyak clones with 2h), fights last longer, less random deaths, lets teams do nice looking but mostly useless shield walls etc.
I think it'd make much more sense if the majority of infantry were shielders with some 2h and polearm players.
Gasp! Heretic! You mentioned realism in connection with crpg. I see a stake and fire in your future, blasphemer.
I would like the ability to stab from behind a raised shield, just like the Roman legions did it. They had sword and shield figured out a long time ago.
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Honestly I've always seen this as a nerf to 1-handers. Here's why:
Though they decreased glance chances, they increased the amount of damage that armor absorbed. So less hits glance, but you need more hits to kill someone.
The only time you really glanced was if you had a cut weapon, relatively low strength and you were fighting someone with heavy loomed armor. In those situations cut weapons are as useless now as they were before the change.
What that change really did was reduce the effectiveness of cut weapons against medium armor, which is the most common armor in the game. On medium armor you never glanced anyway, but now you need more hits to kill someone. Not really a buff to 1-handers there.
I never played 1h, so I can only see the other side here. 1h glanced a lot on me (62 body armor,+3 tabard and plate mittens) especially in groupfights. Now you are mosty stunned in groupfights with shielders around, even when you are able to swing you will likely hit a shield while gathering momentum. I would say this makes it easier for 1h and harder for polearm/2h :).
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Dex basically nailed it. Classes change as time goes by since more people will gravitate towards one type of class and then other people will change their class to counter it and so on and so forth. The cycle of crpg.
Although I will say that I haven't noticed too many new shielders. There are a few more but not too many people. Most of the shielders I fight are NH which makes me glad I have a shield with their damn throwing axes lol.
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Warning wall of text. Just pick a paragraph
What I've noticed over the years is that classes move in "seasons"
From my experience in cRPG (at the time of my joining this mod, Oct-ish 2010), it was shielder central. If you didn't have a shield, you got shot. This was the phasing out of the archer era.
From what I've seen it's been
archers > shielders > horses > polearms > 2h > archers/ranged > crossbowery (the age of the Chaos Operators) > horse archers + crossbows > shielders +2h > horses > polearms (and then the nerf) > horses + shielders (current)
This is pulling off the trend off the top of my head (based on failing memory and natural predators). Of course the 2h heroes have really persisted throughout the trends, simply that their tactics change and hybrids are used (instead of pure 2h).
At the time of the Chaos crossbros, I noticed the increase in horse archers to naturally prey on the immobility of the Operators (when they needed the reload). From there, we saw some foot archers spring up to counter that, which lead to more lancer cav to prey on the archers etc.
As cRPG grows and matures (in development, nothing to say about the community), the combat becomes a more even spread, as fighters realize after a bit that joint operations by several different classes functions better, instead of one merry-go-round of counter-classing (yes it's cool to see a legion with identical armor and weapons, but there is no variation in combat potential, which means easy defeat from ONE predator).
The only major exception which ran counter to my trend model (that crude arrow thing up three paragraphs) is the [horses > polearm > horses] section. I assume it's because the polearms got the nerf (which we had coming), but nothing came to the cavalry, which is - as of now - severely overpowered. They got an indirect buff simply because their melee counter-class has been compromised (because people haven't yet adapted; give it time), range remains a viable counter to horses, but are vulnerable to the speeding, backstabbing cherry picker poopooheads (I'm one) that represent the cav class (both scout and mounted infantry).
Right now, shielders are a fad. Much like the FotM weapons that you find throughout the months of gameplay. Remember when the Bec de Corbin with the fucking biggest dildo on the sex market? Now check the marketplace and see how many are flooding it.
Shielding will have its time, axes and polearms will come into play to counteract the shielding crew. Then the 2h heroes will have their age again. This is just the way of cRPG.
Dextta you should create a Predator-Prey formula and model to represent the shifting changes in class populations.
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The more shielders the better the game would look and feel, imo. Looks more realistic (than a bunch of kuyak clones with 2h), fights last longer, less random deaths, lets teams do nice looking but mostly useless shield walls etc.
I think it'd make much more sense if the majority of infantry were shielders with some 2h and polearm players.
That would be great if shield vs shield combat wasn't dull. I still wish shields had a manual blocking system, where they would take no damage on successful blocks, but would break after 2-5 misses (dependent on victim shield and attacker weapon).
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That would be great if shield vs shield combat wasn't dull. I still wish shields had a manual blocking system, where they would take no damage on successful blocks, but would break after 2-5 misses (dependent on victim shield and attacker weapon).
Shield vs shield is dull, but i guess bringing an axe secondary will help.
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That would be great if shield vs shield combat wasn't dull. I still wish shields had a manual blocking system, where they would take no damage on successful blocks, but would break after 2-5 misses (dependent on victim shield and attacker weapon).
Stop playing tennis with the enemy. Try feints and holds, they work just as well against shielders. If you fail at it, or just want to laugh in another shielder's face bring an axe as a sidearm or man up and use it as a main weapon.
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Try feints and holds, they work just as well against shielders.
Very rarely do they work against good shielders (ManO, San, etc). The only time I really fell for them was when I was playing too aggressively / greedy (I usually put my shield away 1v1 anyways though, since it makes for a far more entertaining fight).
If you fail at it, or just want to laugh in another shielder's face bring an axe as a sidearm or man up and use it as a main weapon.
The nice thing about adding blocking, is that a good shielder would actually be able to hold up under an axe indefinitely. A poor one would have his shield break nearly instantly versus an axe, and still fairly quickly versus a sword. Then, he would die. As it stands right now, your only option is to put your shield away versus a decent opponent with a shield breaker.
Adding blocking would make good shielders better, and make bad ones worse.
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I'm still torn about that idea, Saul. Is there any way it can help in group fights? If a shield breaks too quickly in those moments where you can't tell when an opponent will swing from multiple directions, it may end up devaluing the shield. It sounds interesting, but I still can't help but feel that putting the shield away is still a better alternative in those 1v1 situations. It could help immensely with 1v1 situations when the enemy has archer support.
EDIT: *sees offline* For a later time, then.
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I'm still torn about that idea, Saul. Is there any way it can help in group fights?
Ideally something like a steel plated shield would still be able to hold up to a good 4-5 misses before breaking (assuming no shield breakers). That, mixed with still being able to make most of your blocks (even in Nv1 scenarios) would keep it alive for a long time.
Shield blocking speed would have to be somewhat increased.
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Stop playing tennis with the enemy. Try feints and holds, they work just as well against shielders. If you fail at it, or just want to laugh in another shielder's face bring an axe as a sidearm or man up and use it as a main weapon.
You have to be really bad to get hit by a feint with a sheild. Dont swing until you hear the sheild get hit its simple. To lose to someone whose a 2h with a sheild you have to be signifcantly worse in melle than they are, considering most shield users are pretty bad in melee its not a huge problem but if any more decent players than the few good ones who use sheild already take it up itl be apprent how easy the build is. Sheild is undoubtedly the best 1 vs 1 and 1 vs many fighting class. 2h is really only better in getting the killing blow.
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shields are more attractive now that half the bullshit shenanigans that killed them are gone.
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shields are more attractive now that half the bullshit shenanigans that killed them are gone.
Very true. Spinstabs were the bane of the shielder.
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First of all, I was thrower/shielder long before it was cool. As a casual and quite useless player, I hate the idea of manual shield blocking. Not everyone is the greatest at twitch style games, and if everything was too hard you won't get many new players.
I will agree that shielder duels are boring, which is why if you go to duel server it's all 2 handers there. But in battle its a little different. 2 shielders start fighting, take forever, then another guy shows up and stabs one guy in the head; end of duel. Or a shielder notices a friendly archer nearby, he tries turning the enemy's back to the archer to give him the easy kill. Like Marathon said, it's all about teamwork and different classes working together. Makes the game a lot more interesting.
Shame about the shieldwall though. It does look cool, but totally ineffective. Standing there stopping arrows doesn't earn victories. I think people gotta learn to advance quickly in a shieldwall, covering 2 handers and polearms till they get close to the enemy. Can't see that happen cuz rule #1 is when you spawn run as fast as you can enemy-ward. Not sure why that is.
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I never really understood the shielder hate. Just think of them as really pro manual blockers; change up your timing is the most efficient way to take them down. Only the noobs completely turtle, and if they do, so what? Leave them and move onto the next target.
I believe carrying a shield, even if you're a dedicated pole/2hander, is just plain smart. Lots of arrows, bolts, rocks, and darts getting tossed around.
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Dextta you should create a Predator-Prey formula and model to represent the shifting changes in class populations.
5 body Lotka-Volterra booyah
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To those saying S&B vs S&B is boring, and think shield walls would be cool if they served a purpose, hear me out on my '2 birds with one stone' idea, that would make S&B vs S&B fighting and shield walls both relevant and fun:
Want more and battle effective shield walls? First -yeah, learn to advance in them, and make battle maps with absolute choke points/narrow fighting corridors -10-15 men wide perhaps?
AND
This is a perfect argument for shield bash! Make shield bash a reality, and the only significant counter other than kick? -THE SHIELD WALL! (make it so that when you get the shield wall + bonus, you also gain percent bonus to cancel the opponents shield bash against said shield wall, and possible immunity to kick as well)
Thus in the aforementioned narrow corridor, you stop the individual advancing shield bashers with a shield wall, which may result in either an advance of the wall, a defense of the wall, or counter shield walls forming in reaction, with ranged thrown into a stand-off.
-you know, like a traditional battle line, that seems to be how they actually did it irl.
???
Just thinkin outloud. Even without the 'narrow corridor' style maps these ideas may work really well if tried.
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I reckon it has something to do with the new banners.
People like to show off their "clan pride" with the banners on their shields.
Sometimes all it takes are a few new stylish looks to motivate people to play a certain build instead of another.
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I've had at least 3-4 points of shield in every one of my past six or seven generations, even when I'm not actively using a shield; it's just too much of a utility to not have points invested into, in my opinion. Works with the two-hand bastard weapons, hoplite style polearms, and one-handed weapons, to boot. Makes playing in any Strategus battle that much more bearable to at least have the option of carrying an omniblock for range and line formation.
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I never played 1h, so I can only see the other side here. 1h glanced a lot on me (62 body armor,+3 tabard and plate mittens) especially in groupfights. Now you are mosty stunned in groupfights with shielders around, even when you are able to swing you will likely hit a shield while gathering momentum. I would say this makes it easier for 1h and harder for polearm/2h :).
No shit. Thats what should happen. And it happens to any melle fighter 1h or polearm. Polerarms and 2h can hit out spam shielders easily and do full damage at any angle and any distance. Ny swings bounce if people are to close
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I like the idea of giving shielders a manual blocking reward mechanic. Like maybe 35-50% damage reduction to shield on "successful" block, 50-100% damage increase to shield on "missed" block. I don't think the change would be too radical. It would give a minor reward players for blocking in the right direction with a minor penalty for not blocking correctly. Of course the numbers could be tweaked as well.
Personally, I think 1h are fun (even though I'm not as good with them :() and shielders are very useful in team situations. Only thing I don't like about them now is there is no manual blocking involved, which makes the class as a whole a lot less interesting to play personally.
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I like the idea of giving shielders a manual blocking reward mechanic. Like maybe 35-50% damage reduction to shield on "successful" block, 50-100% damage increase to shield on "missed" block. I don't think the change would be too radical. It would give a minor reward players for blocking in the right direction with a minor penalty for not blocking correctly. Of course the numbers could be tweaked as well.
Personally, I think 1h are fun (even though I'm not as good with them :() and shielders are very useful in team situations. Only thing I don't like about them now is there is no manual blocking involved, which makes the class as a whole a lot less interesting to play personally.
I can get behind this. The shield shouldn't take no damage whatsoever since it can still protect the user even when the block misses.
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I can get behind this. The shield shouldn't take no damage whatsoever since it can still protect the user even when the block misses.
The tradeoff there is having a short weapon that requires you to get within threat range of multiple players to use effectively (when compared to polearms or 2h).
I really like the idea of a 1h being able to take a light shield that doesn't impede movement much, with the tradeoff that one or two failed blocks will destroy it.
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uhh shield vs shield is the most boring shit in the game.
I made the original barmace crusher just because I was fed up with turtles making the game so dull
but playing shielder is fun simply because taking on multiple enemies is easy, and you have near immunity to ranged.
but yeah game needs manual shielder blocking really, I've thought before about how I would do this effectively but too much engine work I think.
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The tradeoff there is having a short weapon that requires you to get within threat range of multiple players to use effectively (when compared to polearms or 2h).
I really like the idea of a 1h being able to take a light shield that doesn't impede movement much, with the tradeoff that one or two failed blocks will destroy it.
I'm aware but I don't think its fair that, under this manual blocking shield idea, a person with a shield can miss a block and still be unharmed while also having the advantage of keeping his shield at full health if he blocks everything perfectly. That's all.
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I'm aware but I don't think its fair that, under this manual blocking shield idea, a person with a shield can miss a block and still be unharmed while also having the advantage of keeping his shield at full health if he blocks everything perfectly. That's all.
I think too many people want to make this game too fucking hard for casual gamers and want to reward the people who have been playing for 8 hours a day for the last three years. I'm sorry I'm a shitty player and all, but cRPG (plus native about six times) is the only online gaming I've done. I know you guys want to keep it challenging for yourselves, but non 733T players like to survive more than 2 minutes sometimes too.
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I think too many people want to make this game too fucking hard for casual gamers and want to reward the people who have been playing for 8 hours a day for the last three years. I'm sorry I'm a shitty player and all, but cRPG (plus native about six times) is the only online gaming I've done. I know you guys want to keep it challenging for yourselves, but non 733T players like to survive more than 2 minutes sometimes too.
Anybody - at least anybody with 100 ping or less - can just sink a few months into the duel server (even just playing an hour every couple days), and get to the point where they can block a single opponent 95% (if not more) of the time. After that it's a matter of doing it with distractions and against multiple opponents (siege is a decent place to practice this).
Blocking is easy enough that most player don't duel defensively, because it actually ends up being pretty boring.
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I like the idea of giving shielders a manual blocking reward mechanic. Like maybe 35-50% damage reduction to shield on "successful" block, 50-100% damage increase to shield on "missed" block. I don't think the change would be too radical. It would give a minor reward players for blocking in the right direction with a minor penalty for not blocking correctly. Of course the numbers could be tweaked as well.
I really like this.
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Hey get off my nuts... I have been a shielder since day one. It isn't a fad.
Actually the fad right now is being a shielder and wearing lots of armor.
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Oh, I sorta misunderstood. If you do a bad block, you're still blocked but your shield is weakened. That makes sense, and my guess would be true to life. Still, that could make a shield op, and the guys who invested in shield breakers might get pissed. Plus it won't help me till I move and get a better internet connection for my ping.
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uhh shield vs shield is the most boring shit in the game.
I made the original barmace crusher just because I was fed up with turtles making the game so dull
but playing shielder is fun simply because taking on multiple enemies is easy, and you have near immunity to ranged.
but yeah game needs manual shielder blocking really, I've thought before about how I would do this effectively but too much engine work I think.
stop talking out of your ass, you have no 1h experience and you even admit it in another post
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stop talking out of your ass, you have no 1h experience and you even admit it in another post
Yeah, good 1h use a lot of footwork to get past the shield and try make the other miss the shield. Me, on the other hand, just turtle.
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uhh shield vs shield is the most boring shit in the game.
I made the original barmace crusher just because I was fed up with turtles making the game so dull
but playing shielder is fun simply because taking on multiple enemies is easy, and you have near immunity to ranged.
but yeah game needs manual shielder blocking really, I've thought before about how I would do this effectively but too much engine work I think.
Completely disagree.
Blocking on an axis is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than four direction 1982 blocking, if anything what needs an upgrade from 'space invaders' days, is the 4 directional manual blocking...
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So, if I'm not misjudging the tone of this thread, there is an issue with shielders and a movement to somehow indirectly nerf them? I hope I'm wrong, because if not the calls for nerfs has reached hilarious heights.
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I have been a shielder for so long hehe
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NA and it's FoTM.
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plz add this feature for non-shielders 2 balance the game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MS1dxood5o&feature=player_detailpage#t=218s
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Shield users are become more and more popular (on NA at least). I see lots of them in the servers, and many trades on the marketplace forum are for turning in armor/bows/poles/etc for 1h and shield gear.
This thread is just to discuss possible reasons why. Do you think there was an increase in ranged and now people are taking shields to compensate? Are people just bored with their 2h/pole characters and they are now rolling alts?
Do you think its a phase or here to stay? Has anyone else noticed?
Discuss
* The animation length for 1h attacks is shorter than other weapons (except for pole thrust), therefore they always hit first if you and your opponent start to swing at the same time, which is a huge advantage (I've been 1h class (no shield) for 10 gen, I know this)
* Sidestep to the right, then by spam, feint or using held attacks, you'll land a left swing eventually. And if the left swing from the side is close to the head it will do like 4x damage.
* When u face 2 shielders at the same time u know u have a problem, which is not the case against other classes. When one of them gets a hit in, the spam of fast swings will follow, and lots of those will land.
(* (elite) scimitar, can't distinguish feints from real swings!)
These close combat abilities make shielders even more popular above the fact that they can protect themselves against ranged.
hmmm.... time to go make a shielder alt! :twisted:
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the reason is stones, so op
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stop talking out of your ass, you have no 1h experience and you even admit it in another post
think you'll find thats an old post, done a couple 1h gens recently
I did a 1h shield cav gen kicked alot of ass even on foot, nothing too it after a bit of practise. shield = auto block enabled . downside was you start to forget how to manual block. I got a deadly steel pick atm and its so op
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think you'll find thats an old post, done a couple 1h gens recently
I did a 1h shield cav gen kicked alot of ass even on foot, nothing too it after a bit of practise. shield = auto block enabled . downside was you start to forget how to manual block. I got a deadly steel pick atm and its so op
The steel pick is a totally different issue. It does pierce which is dramatically better than cut. It's base damage is 32, which is pretty damn high for a 1-hander ESPECIALLY with pierce damage. MW it goes up to 35. The entire pick is one color, which is also neutral. That combined with it being short makes it very hard to see especially when someone is up in your face (which they need to be to use it anyway). It is also stupid fast. 99 speed stock, 100 speed MW. With only 6 athletics you can facehug just about anyone on NA.
All of those factors added up make it a ridiculous weapon.
As far as shields go, I don't think adding directional blocking to them is the way to go. I would like to see adjustments made to shield durability, speed and shield skill.
If you have a high shield skill and a good shield like a Huscarl, you can block axes for a long time. I think shield breakers should always break shields in a few hits. People would then be required to put their shield away against an axe breaker or it breaks really quick. They could also slow down the heavier shields. The better at tanking a shield is, the slower it is. Right now there's no real reason to use any shield but a select few. Shield speed isn't too much of an issue especially with a relatively high shield skill. I would like to see more shield diversity.
Another idea would be to make steel shields almost immune to shield breaking weapons, but lower their speed DRAMATICALLY. That would make them good for holding areas, or pushing through chokepoints, but terrible for fighting.
There's a lot of possibilities, but it would be nice if you had more tactical choices for shields. Certain shields are better at certain things, some resist axes more or worse, etc.
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Given shield using infantry was the generic medieval soldier up until pike & shot, wouldn't having more shielders and less 2h heroes be a good thing btw?
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Don't touch anything. I dont see much pick users at all in Eu1 server. Maybie there is one,or two max.
Only good pick user is kingrim cuz he have 12/24 build,but i bet that hearst can kick his ass.
I personaly use shield because i am not good with blocking,and many ppl use shields for same reason.
advantages:
you can block arrows,and some hits of 2h,1h,and poles
dissadvantages:
low dmg
low reach
you are much slower because of build limit and weight of shield
mw shield with 5 shield skill will brake after 3 hits with big axe
you get sorrounded easily
can't do much vs agi whores,especialy if they use longer weapon. They will just spam you,and dance arround and eventinaly get ur back or smash ur shield.
some throwing weapons have bonus against shields,and that throwing lance brake my mw elite cav shield with one hit.
Banok anytime mate,any server you want. Lets see how good you are if you say that 1h shield is easy class,and op and that you are so good with that and deserve nerf.
You are making up story because some shielders kicked ur ass. You want to nerf us beacuse you find 1h hard to fight.
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I personaly tried picks and i find it hard. With just 5 athl i couldn't touch anyone.
They are always out of my reach,because builds in eu1 is balanced or more agility oriented so face hugging is almoust impposible.
Not to mention ppl like bashibazouk hearst who use kicks well,and any comming close to him is suecide.
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Don't touch anything. I dont see much pick users at all in Eu1 server. Maybie there is one,or two max.
Only good pick user is kingrim cuz he have 12/24 build,
Kinngrimm has 12/30 build with 10 shield and 10 athletics.
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ehh nvm the point is still the same.
1h is not op,it is completly fine.
Doesn't need buff,doesn't need nerf.
Fix of overhead and stab would be nice,or something to make our stab glance less would be nice too.
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Its because of the increase of throwers, archers, and xbows. Mainly throwers though I think. Alot of people seem to dislike throwers in the extreme, as I have seen.
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Its because of the increase of throwers, archers, and xbows. Mainly throwers though I think. Alot of people seem to dislike throwers in the extreme, as I have seen.
Because they can actually SEE who is attacking them at range, instead of nameless archer in background that they are ignoring
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advantages:
you can block arrows,and some hits of 2h,1h,and poles
dissadvantages:
low dmg
low reach
you are much slower because of build limit and weight of shield
mw shield with 5 shield skill will brake after 3 hits with big axe
you get sorrounded easily
can't do much vs agi whores,especialy if they use longer weapon. They will just spam you,and dance arround and eventinaly get ur back or smash ur shield.
some throwing weapons have bonus against shields,and that throwing lance brake my mw elite cav shield with one hit.
Quite an interesting post. Here's my experience from my shielder gen:
Advantages:
-Left hand animation
-Hard to see overheads
-Never breaking shield [steel bucklery, only disadvantage was that a shield breaker broke it in a hit or two]
-Spam [Left right left right, maybe an over head, blocking whenever I think I'll get hurt]
-"Block" ranged
-Suprisingly high damage [Steel Pick/Warhammer compared to bec/LHSM, Iron War Axe compared to LHB or a danish if MWed, Italian Falchion being baller]
-2 vs 1 plays like a 1 vs 1 [sometimes 3vs1 as well]
-Not fun to fight [People play super risky in order to end it quickly. Without a shield breaker, it's fucking pain to kill a shielder, and even a shield breaker may need 5 or more hits]
-Line breaking
Disadvantages:
-Teammates hit you all the damned time
-"Reach" [I don't really feel like that's an issue if you use a shield. 1h no shield, yeah, it matters a shitload, 1h with shield, not so much]
-Nodachi somehow weaponstunning my through my shield's block [fuck that weapon]
-Agi 2hers can side swipe, hitting you before you can hit them, even if you chambered first [pretty damned rare, only 1 person intentionally did it to me, and I was caught off gaurd the first time somebody did that to me, so I acted like a dumbass. Of course, that's what I attempt as a 2her]
-Shield can break
-Hard to tell when shield is broken midfight [unless you have the sound on]
I didn't really get surrounded more as a shielder compared to pole/2her/1h no shield. Nobody was ever able to constantly keep out of my range with a back peddle. Can't say much about horsies, but at level 22, I was using the nordic shield, and a scottish and killed most of the horses that attempted to couch me with a single stab to the face. Plated chargers sucked [low armor makes trample damage hurt], and only two people were able to kill me consistantly because I played too risky [hey, I can outrange his angled lance with my tiny sword]