cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Realism Discussion => Topic started by: Leshma on June 26, 2012, 12:50:12 pm

Title: The Longbowman
Post by: Leshma on June 26, 2012, 12:50:12 pm
According to some pictures I've found scattered over the internet, this is the example of the longbowman, although with better protection than some others I've found:

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Problem with this outfit is that it weights 14.5 in total (2x1.3 for helmet; 10.6 for body armor; 4x0.1 for gloves; 0.9 for boots). That's 4.5 above WPF limit which is 10 at the moment.

I'm aware of the fact that this set, fully loomed, has 48 body armor, 37 head armor and 39 leg armor. But, no one asked balancers to put such high armor ratings for these items.

Anyways, this is probably the heaviest equipment an archer would wear. Compared to the heaviest equipment knights wore (79 body armor rating), that's quite a noticeable difference. More than 30 armor points which is huge.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Ronin on June 26, 2012, 01:05:48 pm
Quote from: Leshma on June 26, 2012, 12:50:12 pm
My proposal is to make this setup viable for ranged classes but also to separate upkeep for ranged, cavalry and infantry. So that an archer with this setup pays the same price as knight in full plate armor.
For only armor or all equipment combined? In either cases, it doesn't make much sense though.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Leshma on June 26, 2012, 01:10:34 pm

It's kinda unfair that archers have plenty of ugly items to choose from while infantry get all the good armors.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Ronin on June 26, 2012, 01:13:59 pm
But why you think a knight in full plate set and an english longbowman should pay the same upkeep? Higher weight decreases their wpf and movement speed already. Even without these, why you want to make archers pay more money?
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Adamar on June 26, 2012, 01:18:02 pm
You also see longbowmen represented with mailed brigandines, but the devs dont want archers to wear proper armor. Even my scale armor is making me lose money, which only encourages lighter kiting builds.
I already suggested several times that the accuracy penalty should be considerably reduced. I personaly dont see any ballance issues with archers wearing proper medium armor, so why not take this step?
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Banzai!!! on June 26, 2012, 01:45:08 pm
To look like a proper longbowmen I would actually change that helmet to this:

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But the trouble is that I am only first gen and so money is a bit of an issue and Im having to wear these items just to make money as an archer:

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I agree that accuracy needs to be less affected by weight but to propose that someone wearing your armour setup would be paying the same amount as someone in plate armour is insane!!! All this would achieve is that archers like myself who are only gen 1 and have little money would now be wearing less armour and so would be kiting even more which is what people are complainging about the most.

So YES to archer penalty being reduced but NO to archers paying the same amount of money in medium armour as to infantry in plate armour!!!
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Penitent on June 26, 2012, 06:48:26 pm
That armor is viable for archers already!

The longbow man in history did not wear armor that did not impede is movement at all.  He wore armor that is a balance between protection and weight. He sacrificed some flexibility for adequate protection.  He likely wore as much protection as possible while maintaining the ability to shoot.  The armor you posted is just that!  Magnificent in its design and functionality.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Adamar on June 26, 2012, 07:10:09 pm
 IRL chest, head, and leg weight doesn't affect your aim at all, because you're standing straight. Unless we're wearing some heavy gautlets or maille hauberks with long sleeves, the accuracy penalty isn't justified at all. What it does is encourage kiting and make the game less fun for all, archers included.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Penitent on June 26, 2012, 07:13:08 pm
Quote from: Adamar on June 26, 2012, 07:10:09 pm
IRL chest, head, and leg weight doesn't affect your aim at all, because you're standing straight. Unless we're wearing some heavy gautlets or maille hauberks with long sleeves, the accuracy penalty isn't justified at all. What it does is encourage kiting and make the game less fun for all, archers included.

Head and chest weight can affect your aim.  Try shooting a bow with a heavy backpack on (weight on your back and shoulders, the muscles used to draw the bow) and a metal football helmet on.  You won't shoot as good as with nothing. :)  Trust me!

I actually think that gloves would reduce accuracy less than body armor, since the hands do little of the aiming.

It's possible for leg weight to make it a bit harder to establish foot position (also important in aiming a bow) especially when running around, but this would be a much lesser effect compared to body armor weight and head.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Adamar on June 26, 2012, 07:27:13 pm
First you pull the bow, with the arrow already pointing into the general target area, while you position you body. The final motion of actually aiming and releasing the arrow is a really small one. So, again, I dont see why body weight would affect you precision.

edit: unless you have some significant weight in your left hand generating inertia, that will indeed affect your aim.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Penitent on June 26, 2012, 07:41:51 pm
Quote from: Adamar on June 26, 2012, 07:27:13 pm
First you pull the bow, with the arrow already pointing into the general target area, while you position you body. The final motion of actually aiming and releasing the arrow is a really small one. So, again, I dont see why body weight would affect you precision.

edit: unless you have some significant weight in your left hand generating inertia, that will indeed affect your aim.

Ok, imagine this.  You are on a battlefield with your friend.  You have chosen to wear a tunic and trousers, while your friend dons knee-length chainmail coat.  You are running through the battefield, trying to get in to position.  You are blocked by enemy infantry and double-back.  You run though a thicket, dodging branches and leaping over small logs and clambering over fallen trees.  You wade chest-deep into a river to cross it, and then sprint up a 60 ft hill where you can get a good view of the enemy formation.  You both grab an arrow and begin to draw your bows.  You're sweaty, your breath is labored.  Your heart is pounding to the point you can feel your pulse in your eardrums.  Your muscles burn with fatigue and your hands shake slightly as you pull the full weight back of your 90lb bow and complete your aiming just before you release your arrows.

Who will have a more steady aim in his back, shoulders, arms, and hands as they draw and aim? Who will have a steadier stance in their legs?  You or your friend who wore the knee-length chainmail coat?  :)

I think its one more reason to have armor not affect aim so much, but have armor effect stamina and stamina effect aim. :)  But with the game we have, it's not such a bad representation.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Miwiw on June 26, 2012, 07:48:05 pm
The friend would have stumbled when getting up the hill, falling down into the river and drowning.  :lol:

I actually dont have anything to say to the topic, it is already lovely that the penalty was lowered and archers can have up to 10 weight without a problem. Most will still wear less, especially low weight hand and head armor.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Adamar on June 26, 2012, 07:49:11 pm
Yeah, stamina, right. Nice scenario, but we're talking about archery, you usually dont need to run to get to the enemy.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Teeth on June 26, 2012, 07:50:20 pm
Maybe the archery system should be changed so that being a bow armed peasant that runs away all the time is not the way to go.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Miwiw on June 26, 2012, 07:52:45 pm
They are roleplaying though. What else should a peasant do than running away. However for that, their damage is quite too high then. Real soldiers, including archers, stand their ground (in cover behind friends or on a hill...). That is something most ppl miss tho.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Adamar on June 26, 2012, 07:53:48 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on June 26, 2012, 07:50:20 pm
Maybe the archery system should be changed so that being a bow armed peasant that runs away all the time is not the way to go.

That's the point with armored archers. I keep repeating myself around the forums, but the devs like their kiting archers it seems.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Joker86 on June 26, 2012, 07:54:00 pm
Quote from: Leshma on June 26, 2012, 01:10:34 pm
It's kinda unfair that archers have plenty of ugly items to choose from while infantry get all the good armors.

You can't argue that way.

What you decribed there was a professional, probably English longbowman. A professional, no levied peasant. (Which had mail and some stuff, too, I admit). Many of them were even mounted. (Which doesn't mean they fought from horseback).

There was a difference in "value" on the battlefield for certain troops. Knights and professional men at arms had the highest value, followed by professional infantry/sergeants on foot and probably professional archers. THEN all the levies came, the conscripted peasants and archers and the like.

The problem is: each player can only control one avatar. Which means, to balance the value of all players on the battlefield, all (comparable) avatars need to be of the same value. Please don't tell me I have to exlpain every player has to have the same value on the battlefield, at least concerning the starting conditions. Of course it's his business what he makes out of it with his skills.

But you can't simply put history into a game, because history was unfair, a game can't be, or it wouldn't be a game any more. A player who plays a knight can not be ten times or more as valuable as a player who plays a conscripted spearman. Sure, character level and equipment do make a (justified) difference, but game wise you can't put archers in brigandines when some infantry runs around only in mail. The game balance would be broken.

That's why I think the entire subforum is retarded.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Penitent on June 26, 2012, 08:05:00 pm
Quote from: Adamar on June 26, 2012, 07:49:11 pm
Yeah, stamina, right. Nice scenario, but we're talking about archery, you usually dont need to run to get to the enemy.

LOL.  Show me an archer in CRPG that does RUN and I'll show you a pike user that doesn't backpedal.

 :lol:
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: ToxicKilla on June 26, 2012, 08:13:28 pm
I use that armour set up on my archer character, despite the penalty to accuracy. It's just worth it to look that awesome.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Adamar on June 26, 2012, 08:14:51 pm
Quote from: Garison on June 26, 2012, 08:05:00 pm
LOL.  Show me an archer in CRPG that does RUN and I'll show you a pike user that doesn't backpedal.

 :lol:

*random facepalm pic*

You where just assuming that archers would be tired all the time. Lets use that argument in all classes, yay.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Elindor on June 26, 2012, 08:18:15 pm
i wonder if rescaling of WPF curve chadz mentioned will change this somewhat....
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Penitent on June 26, 2012, 08:20:25 pm
Quote from: Adamar on June 26, 2012, 08:14:51 pm
*random facepalm pic*

You where just assuming that archers would be tired all the time. Lets use that argument in all classes, yay.

No, I'm saying that armor weight reduces accuracy.  Why would this happen, if we are to take realism into consideration?  Because the weight of the armor on your neck, shoulders, arms, hands, and feet would make it a bit more difficult to aim a bow.

THEN someone said "how can body armor make it hard to aim a bow?  I dun get it." 
So then I used a more drawn out example how fatigue from wearing heavy body armor only (not even hands and feet) can make it harder to aim a bow.  Then I stated how its not a perfect system, but in the game we have...as it is...it not so bad.

I didn't say anything about archers being tired all the time.  If you want to add a stamina factor later, they can be tired some of the time.  But for now, in the realm of "realism"-- being tired can be considered ONE variable (of several) that can lead to body armor reducing accuracy.  That's all I was saying and I don't think there is anything incorrect or unreasonable in saying that.  :)
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Leshma on June 26, 2012, 11:52:45 pm
Garison this is combination of cloth and reinforced leather. I don't understand why it has such high armor rating, it's meant for archers. But giving archers 50 armor and decent melee ability could help the issue and that's kiting.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Penitent on June 27, 2012, 12:10:46 am
Balance-wise, I think you're right.  It's kind of a high armor for archers.  Realism though, this leather is reinforced with metal plates!  Here's an inside view of a brigandine.

Brigandine, Italian, c1470, Royal Armoury, Leeds
(click to show/hide)

It depends on how thick the plates are, but I think it would protect better than chain mail (the torso section anyways).  An aketon is a heavy multi-layered padded cloth.  It would be lighter than leather though.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Leshma on June 27, 2012, 12:33:58 am
There are two types of brigandines: light version and two heavy versions (inculding old bringandine).

Neither seem to be refinforced with such thick plates, otherwise it would have 49 or more armor rating.

Heavy brigandines have mail shirt bellow, light have padded cloth.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Adamar on June 27, 2012, 12:35:38 am
It was developed way earlier than the 15th century, and it originaly had thick metal rings tied together under the leather.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Casimir on July 05, 2012, 02:06:31 am
Quote from: Garison on June 27, 2012, 12:10:46 am
Balance-wise, I think you're right.  It's kind of a high armor for archers.  Realism though, this leather is reinforced with metal plates!  Here's an inside view of a brigandine.

Brigandine, Italian, c1470, Royal Armoury, Leeds
(click to show/hide)

It depends on how thick the plates are, but I think it would protect better than chain mail (the torso section anyways).  An aketon is a heavy multi-layered padded cloth.  It would be lighter than leather though.

Something of that thickness is moving towards coat of plates.  Jack of plates and brigadines were normally made of smaller, and thinner plates iirc.

Obviously styles varied differently according to personal preference and wealth as well as regional styling.  Welsh Longbowman very rarely wore a jack of plates or maile preferring hardy leathers and hide.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Ragnar on August 01, 2012, 01:17:35 am
In reference to that hat in the first post... wearing a wide brim hat of any kind is a pain in the dick if your actually shooting a bow, go ahead and try lol, what happens when you draw the string to cheek.....
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Leshma on August 01, 2012, 01:19:01 am
According to history books, archers did wear that in middle ages.
Title: Re: The Longbowman
Post by: Ragnar on August 01, 2012, 01:27:57 am
Quote from: Leshma on August 01, 2012, 01:19:01 am
According to history books, archers did wear that in middle ages.
you mean the ones they wore with a inch brim, or the ones in our game here that are like metal 10 gallon hats....