cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: PieParadox on June 12, 2012, 11:44:37 pm
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Since crpg seems to be trying to be more balanced, with removing polestagger, reducing turnspeed etc, I was wondering why looms exist? They are the really the only problem with balance in my opinion.
Fighting fully loomed, strength 2-hers with a only 6 ps or 1h is highly stacked against you. I'm tired of hitting someone 6 times with a 1h (7 PS) and they 1 hit you with whatever they have. Though I suppose agility is supposed to be a niche thing, at least 1hers need a buff. Medium armour looms with loomed heavy gloves is extremely deadly.
The problem of course with looms is not on the average player but on the great players. The better the player, the more looms start to matter.
Though the new trading between alts seems fair, it also allows people to reach higher levels than before, feeding their new level 32/33 mains with more looms.
What are your thoughts on high strength and looms combined?
TLDR: nerf loomz
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If someone is really fully loomed, probably yes. But they spent time doing so. for 4 items which are each loomed three times, you get 5 Head Armor, 10 Body Armor and 10 Leg Armor in addition to the normal item (less for light gear). After all that is not much, seeing that even someone who grinds some hours a day needs about 2 weeks for a generation. Most people need longer.
Having myself +3 light body armor and gauntlets, I loomed them as I have the same body armor with lower weight now compared to a heavier set-up.
Surely you notice some difference if all your items are loomed and another guy's things aren't. However I think the looms aren't really a problem regarding balance. You never know your enemies level, unless he tells you. And then there are different points making you need more hits, glances, being unlucky and much more.
And actually I would enjoy if people wouldnt die after 2 hits, 5-7 sounds reasonable for medium equip (with a str build).
The better the player, the better the loom? In that case skill is the more important thing then...
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Looms don't make such a huge difference as some think. Weapons only get 3 additional damage, armor gives up to 10 additional armor points (with gauntlets). That's not as much as it sounds. You still die in 2-3 hits.
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But still everyone wants them. :rolleyes:
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Looms don't make such a huge difference as some think. Weapons only get 3 additional damage, armor gives up to 10 additional armor points (with gauntlets). That's not as much as it sounds. You still die in 2-3 hits.
I think the armor looms are quite noticeable [then again I wear 7body armor most of the time so...], but as you say, weapons not so much.
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then again I wear 7body armor most of the time so...
Then you got no right complaining about being onehit.
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Surviving 5-7 hits is pretty absurd. Mistakes should be punished. If somebody misses 2-3 blocks, then they should be dead. Being unable to consistently block shouldn't be an option, unless you have a shield (even then, some sort of manual blocking system for reduced shield damage would make things more interesting).
I feel that combat would be a lot more exciting and skill based if you were always potentially 1-3 mistakes away from death. A single moment of inattention or panic would kill you, with no chance to recover.
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There is a massive semantic difference between grind balance and class balance. The latest patch, or at least the changes you mentioned only affected class balance.
Anyway, there will always be players with more experience and better reflexes so the game will always be unbalanced no matter what. It's not like playing flip a coin is interesting, even though it's balanced.
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Surviving 5-7 hits is pretty absurd. Mistakes should be punished. If somebody misses 2-3 blocks, then they should be dead. Being unable to consistently block shouldn't be an option, unless you have a shield (even then, some sort of manual blocking system for reduced shield damage would make things more interesting).
I feel that combat would be a lot more exciting and skill based if you were always potentially 1-3 mistakes away from death. A single moment of inattention or panic would kill you, with no chance to recover.
Agree as usual.
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It's not duel server, horses trample, arrows hit, teammates hit, things happen.
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Miwiw, as I said earlier, many mains are probably at least level 30 as alts can give looms to their main.
Do you guys think that looms like masterwork horses and masterwork bow&arrows make little difference?
Many people don't think loomed weapons aren't that great. It doesn't seem that noticeable, but every hit you land adds up. A weapon with 30 damage, with an heirloom of 3 points, gets a 10% damage increase. This does not seem much at all, but can quickly add up for every hit you land in a round or the long term. It's an increase in damage by more than 1 powerstrike (8% damage increase), though I am guessing that there are more factors behind PS than that.
I hate how much armour that loomed heavy gloves can give, for the weight. (Who cares about gold anymore?) An increase in medium armour can quickly take toll on your weight if you're not strength oriented- however, heirlooms negate that extra weight. And footwork's always important.
I can guess only that my suggestion is unfavorable since many people use heirlooms.
Skill is obviously a large factor in this game, but looms can easily increase your survivability by much more. Surviving even 1 or 2 more hits with loomed armour makes it extremely useful, which is what I mean that the better the player, the more effective the looms will become. e.g.If you normally die in 1 hit, you get a 100% increase in survivability by dying in 2 hits rather. These things count at a high skill levels, such as in Vodner's case.
Most of these things only become problems if you're a 1her or only have 5-6 PS. Oftentimes, landing a 1hander hit is hard since there are no fancy tricks to them, and they do less damage. If nothing else is taken from this thread, in the end I think that 1her can use a buff.
/end wall of text
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Since crpg seems to be trying to be more balanced, with removing polestagger, reducing turnspeed etc, I was wondering why looms exist? They are the really the only problem with balance in my opinion.
Fighting fully loomed, strength 2-hers with a only 6 ps or 1h is highly stacked against you. I'm tired of hitting someone 6 times with a 1h (7 PS) and they 1 hit you with whatever they have. Though I suppose agility is supposed to be a niche thing, at least 1hers need a buff. Medium armour looms with loomed heavy gloves is extremely deadly.
The problem of course with looms is not on the average player but on the great players. The better the player, the more looms start to matter.
Though the new trading between alts seems fair, it also allows people to reach higher levels than before, feeding their new level 32/33 mains with more looms.
What are your thoughts on high strength and looms combined?
TLDR: nerf loomz
Sure nerf looms why not?
Masterwork items should only get one more dmg and armor only 2 armorpoints on Lordly yes?
NO
Looms already have been nerfed enough in crpg history and any other stat nerf would make looming your stuff pointless.
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Well why do looms even have to exist in the first place? Just to grind? I just play this game for fun, and I have over 1000 hours (o god..) logged into it. I normally just respec after I hit level 30. I do have 1 masterwork I've just begun to use and a 1+ item but still enjoy this game everyday. Until someone ruins my fun with stacked looms! At least I make the game fun for everyone else. I'll just die in 1 hit after hitting you 5 times so everyone wins!
Looms should just get a new model, like from that heirloom pack.
Anyways if you guys don't think that heirlooms don't make a huge difference, why don't you give them to me?
I know that petitioning this is a hopeless endeavor but someone has to do it~~
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Miwiw, as I said earlier, many mains are probably at least level 30 as alts can give looms to their main.
Do you guys think that looms like masterwork horses and masterwork bow&arrows make little difference?
Many people don't think loomed weapons aren't that great. It doesn't seem that noticeable, but every hit you land adds up. A weapon with 30 damage, with an heirloom of 3 points, gets a 10% damage increase. This does not seem much at all, but can quickly add up for every hit you land in a round or the long term. It's an increase in damage by more than 1 powerstrike (8% damage increase), though I am guessing that there are more factors behind PS than that.
I hate how much armour that loomed heavy gloves can give, for the weight. (Who cares about gold anymore?) An increase in medium armour can quickly take toll on your weight if you're not strength oriented- however, heirlooms negate that extra weight. And footwork's always important.
I can guess only that my suggestion is unfavorable since many people use heirlooms.
Skill is obviously a large factor in this game, but looms can easily increase your survivability by much more. Surviving even 1 or 2 more hits with loomed armour makes it extremely useful, which is what I mean that the better the player, the more effective the looms will become. e.g.If you normally die in 1 hit, you get a 100% increase in survivability by dying in 2 hits rather. These things count at a high skill levels, such as in Vodner's case.
Most of these things only become problems if you're a 1her or only have 5-6 PS. Oftentimes, landing a 1hander hit is hard since there are no fancy tricks to them, and they do less damage. If nothing else is taken from this thread, in the end I think that 1her can use a buff.
/end wall of text
Looms for life.
Also, what the previous poster said. Lordly used to give +6 armor, then was buffed (lol) to +7 armor. Then that was nerfed to only give +5 armor. Same thing with weapons; it used to be crazy how much damage a MW weapon would give (+5 for 1H swords, I don't even want to know how much 2H and polearms got. The +1 modifier, balanced, gave +3 Damage and +3 speed, lol). Now the maximum for most MWs is +3 Damage, +1 Speed. Mighty gives a bit of weight, and on the Great Maul gives +4 Damage but no speed.
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Everyone minusing you except Saul... Interesting.
From the point of view of someone with no armor looms, I'm not sure how much more they can nerf them before they're just not worth it. It is enticing to get looms, but you don't really need that many. I think 1h needs to be loomed though so they don't do crap damage.
I'm more prone to blaming the level 33-34 monsters than the loom, since it gives so many benefits.
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Surviving 5-7 hits is pretty absurd. Mistakes should be punished. If somebody misses 2-3 blocks, then they should be dead. Being unable to consistently block shouldn't be an option, unless you have a shield (even then, some sort of manual blocking system for reduced shield damage would make things more interesting).
I feel that combat would be a lot more exciting and skill based if you were always potentially 1-3 mistakes away from death. A single moment of inattention or panic would kill you, with no chance to recover.
That's why I've switched to agi-heavy builds. I just find it to be a hell of a lot more fun when you move really fast and are always inches away from death.
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Valiant of you to bring it up.. we know how it will end.. been there.
Anyhow..
Armor.. total points for a full set ? It will be more then a melee weapon.
ranged+ ammo - more then a melee weapon.
I think I'll loom milanese for my low INT str build - it really is lulzy when one technique is to just take a beating till the lightweight makes a mistake then pound him into goo.
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I agree that looms should be aesthetic only, and just have a slightly more prestigious look.
A temporary solution would be to increase upkeep as appropriate for heirloomed items.
For example a Lordly Heraldic Mail With Tabard (40 body armor + 5) would cost as much to repair as Banded Armor (45 armor), maybe a little bit less. Then players would still get a small speed bonus for using lighter armor, but wouldn't have such an advantage as before. They could also wear armor that appeals to them aesthetically and still have a desirable defense value.
It makes sense to me that armor/weapons that were made by master smiths should cost a bit more to repair than any old dusty sword or plate.
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Looms pretty much drive the community, they keep people playing for a goal, It's also one of the things that distinguishes crpg from native. Besides lets be honest you would have to convince about 90% of the community that they should not use heirloomed items anymore. And I can guarantee that won't happen.
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As far i can see the first posters point is, that he doesnt wanna grind from lvl 1 again with a loompoint hed rather stay a high level by respecing at 30 so he can gank the low levels who have decided to invest time into a loompoint. Nice. :rolleyes:
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Well why do looms even have to exist in the first place? Just to grind? I just play this game for fun, and I have over 1000 hours (o god..) logged into it. I normally just respec after I hit level 30. I do have 1 masterwork I've just begun to use and a 1+ item but still enjoy this game everyday. Until someone ruins my fun with stacked looms! At least I make the game fun for everyone else. I'll just die in 1 hit after hitting you 5 times so everyone wins!
Looms should just get a new model, like from that heirloom pack.
That's the thing mate. You want to stay higher level, that is fine. But of course you don't have any loom then. That is fine as well. I don't want myself to stay high level all the time. That is getting encouraged by the loompoints. If everyone was about level 30-35 all the time, fights would be different on the servers.
I wouldn't retire just to let my items look a bit different. That wouldn't be worth the time imo. I would rather pay some for it like in other F2P MMOs.
But just saying looms are op and saying at the same time that you don't gonna ever retire but rather respec at level 30 doesn't make your case looks any good.
That is like saying, "I am level 10, you shouldnt be level 20!".
I can see your point, if stacked looms give a good buff but I always saw looms as some goal since they're in cRPG. I would gladly enjoy the game without as I rather see looms as items giving me less weight for the same defense (as armor for example), or more damage for less upkeep.
I can for example use my +3 mail shirt with 42 body armor and 11 leg armor for 9,6 weight and 259 upkeep instead of a +0 light kuyak with 1 less leg armor, 214 more upkeep and 3,3 more weight after playing for about 6-7 weeks for 3 loompoints and 3 retirements.
The loompoints are also a reason to play a bit more than usual. If there wasn't a goal but just fun I would play a bit less. It's the same as in MMOs, "I get xp, I should do xxx amount of that today, then Im fine".
It does of course has its pros and cons but in this case, I see more pros for myself. I would of course also play without looms however.
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Anyhow..
Armor.. total points for a full set ? It will be more then a melee weapon.
ranged+ ammo - more then a melee weapon.
There is a case to be made that melee players benefit more from loomed armor then archers do.
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A guy in full loomed plate set with high IF being able to take 5+ hits from a triple loomed 2h sword at 7-8PS is highly ridiculous. See Ivani4.
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Buff looms
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Looming your weapon to +3 is the equivalent to adding 1-1.5 skill points in power strike, depending on weapon base damage and type. Not a huge deal.
Looming your body armor and gauntlets each to +3 is equivalent to adding 5-8 skill points in Ironflesh. Very significant, but in reality it probably means you can take one more hit.
If you are fighting a fully loomed level 34, for instance, and you are a level 30 with no heirlooms, it's equivalent to fighting someone with about 20 more skill points than you. So equivalent to fighting a level 30 when you are level 23. I think most people kill lots of level 30s when they are level 23. It may take a while, but if you block their swings and they don't block yours, then you are going to win no matter who you are fighting. That's the cool thing about this game, as opposed to WoW or something where gear/levels decide the fight, not player skill.
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I'm not making myself clear. I don't care if someone is lvl 20 with looms. I'm pointing out that many many players have been playing this game for more than a year and have full sets of looms that they have already. Many players will not retire their mains again, due to the obvious reason of having their looms and being fed from alts. Also, many players also play strategus, and having a higher level player as a main will obviously be a large bonus in strat too.
For many there are no cons to getting looms.
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For many there are no cons to getting looms.
That's like saying "There are no cons to getting money".
If they are playing their alts to feed gold to their main, how is that a problem? The alt that you face on the battlefield is much easier to kill than that level 34 main with full looms, correct? Anything that encourages people to play their alts more actually evens the playing field overall.
With the exception of crushthrough (don't get me started), looms don't magically make swings unblockable. Skill and teamwork both have a much bigger impact on the battle outcome. Should those be nerfed also?
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I'm a very teamwork oriented player. I play most classes including support polearm. Removing polestagger actually buffs good players with looms a lot imo. Not being polestaggerned allows them to freely keep swinging.
Like you said, if they're playing on an alt, the playing field should be more level. Great. But eventually theyll play on their main. And many people do already have full looms and are content with just playing their main.
edit: A thing I didn't really address but was actually the main focus of this thread was the stacking of looms and strength together. A fully loomed agility player isn't as dangerous as a strength oriented one. I'm pretty sketchy on this subject though.
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I'm a very teamwork oriented player. I play most classes including support polearm. Removing polestagger actually buffs good players with looms a lot imo. Not being polestaggerned allows them to freely keep swinging.
Like you said, if they're playing on an alt, the playing field should be more level. Great. But eventually theyll play on their main. And many people do already have full looms and are content with just playing their main.
edit: A thing I didn't really address but was actually the main focus of this thread was the stacking of looms and strength together. A fully loomed agility player isn't as dangerous as a strength oriented one. I'm pretty sketchy on this subject though.
The malus you get from playing a str build - you really have to hope your team knows instinctively the gaggle formation. Once you are commited to a certain position you are pretty much there. Um, that's it, though you might end up in trouble vs a real fast lightweight, or at end game vs a bunch of ranged units.
The negatives for an agi build, well it is a longish list. It might benefit from upcoming changes to wpf curve. Everyone knows it is 'harder' to play, but that's part of the appeal.
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edit: A thing I didn't really address but was actually the main focus of this thread was the stacking of looms and strength together. A fully loomed agility player isn't as dangerous as a strength oriented one. I'm pretty sketchy on this subject though.
I dunno, a 12/27 guy with a +3 Steel Pick and 180 wpf is probably the most terrifying opponent I can imagine. Maybe some 39/3 tin can with a +3 Flamberge one-shots you, but he was probably going to one-shot you even without the looms. Then again, a guy in plate with low athletics is pretty easy to avoid. The 9Ath steel pick guy, not so much.
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Yeah exactly. I don't want them to be the same equal in difficulty but make it so that agility doesn't have such a hard time dealing with heavy armour (as a 1her). But there doesn't seem to be any outstanding solution...
That may be pretty viable but 12/27 pretty much gets destroyed by any cav(bumps) or archers, though true of any agility build. I've never played such a build, but it's probably not as viable as it might seem though. The damage with only 4 PS doesn't really amount to much even though it's pierce. And even with high footwork, such a short weapon can only do so much, as you can only attack with a very frontal attack (unlike long 2h which allow nice tricks, katana). Limited to hoping your feints get through I guess?
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Just to grind? I just play this game for fun
That's where you are wrong. You can personally not like grind or not get any fun from it, but that doesn't mean others are like you. In fact grind is quite popular when you look at current games, and I believe it's one of the biggest reasons people play cRPG and not Native.
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I dunno, a 12/27 guy with a +3 Steel Pick and 180 wpf is probably the most terrifying opponent I can imagine. Maybe some 39/3 tin can with a +3 Flamberge one-shots you, but he was probably going to one-shot you even without the looms. Then again, a guy in plate with low athletics is pretty easy to avoid. The 9Ath steel pick guy, not so much.
This has more to do with how broken pierce damage is than anything else. Someone with 12 str and a stock steel pick can do more damage than me with 18 str and a MW Italian.
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12/27 is pretty damn effective with a +3 steel pick. Just ask TurmoilTom he did that exact build, although I'm not sure if he used a steel pick. Whatever he used he was usually on the top portion of the board.
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Yeah, looms are rad. If anything, I want to say, remove looming ammo (arrows and bolts), and make archers only need to loom the bow / crossbow. Honestly the only unfair thing in my mind is that a melee character only needs to loom his weapon, while an archer needs to spend 6 full gens to fulfill his one purpose. Ammo should just be a commodity. As far as pure melee "STR/Loom Crutchers" go, +4 dmg, +1 spd, +5 head, +10 body, +5 leg armor isn't really that daunting for 15 generations, or roughly 1-2 years of pretty consistant playtime.
That's no horse, no shield, no alternate weapons, no ammo, no throwing, no fun, only if they knew exactly what they were doing from day 1 of the mod. Most people just have a weapon, a suit of armor, a pair of gloves, and then skip helms and boots entirely for other weapons to play around with. Some people stick to one build, but people mostly just trade weapons back and forth on the market. The bigger problem is 33+ builds, I'd say, considering they're guaranteed full damage, full speed, full ironflesh with their 3 points + 3 skills, which can be converted into 9 skill points.