cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: WaltF4 on March 25, 2011, 06:29:34 am

Title: Running in cRPG
Post by: WaltF4 on March 25, 2011, 06:29:34 am
I have been conducting tests to determine what factors modify how fast a character runs. To do this I measured the time taken to run along a fixed path. The path chosen was across the center of the arena map. This path was selected because it was readily accessible on the NA Strategus-duel server, had walls as fixed starting and stopping points, had a visually distinguishable marking on the far wall that allowed for path alignment, and was a reasonable approximation for the types of terrain common to open areas found in cRPG battlefields. The first picture below shows the starting point used for these tests from an overhead perspective. The second image shows an over the shoulder perspective from the starting position and the use of the throwing reticule of a ladder for the alignment procedure to the arch on the opposing wall.
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

A stopwatch was used to measure the time taken to run from the starting position to the time the first sign of lateral deflection was seen when running into the far wall. All run time values reported here are taken from the average result of three individual run times at each test condition. Time measurement precision was better than 100 milliseconds for each test conditions using this method. This amounts to a worst-case measurement error of less than 1%. Different agility and athletics combination were achieved using 6 different characters. Character strength and level had no effect on run times. All test were preformed with empty hands unless otherwise noted. Weighting was achieved with a combination of armor and carried objects (weapons, shields, ladders, etc.) Weight of worn armor and weight of carried objects was found to be interchangeable and additive for the purposes of the run time increase due to weight. So carrying two 15 weight ladders, carrying one 15 weight ladder and wearing 15 weight of armor, and wearing 30 weight of armor all yielded the same run times.

The following plot shows the run times for characters with different combinations of agility, athletics, and weight.
(click to show/hide)

From this plot it can be seen that the increase in run time is approximately linear with increasing weight. The increase in run time resulting from a 15 weight increase is approximately equal to a decrease of 6 agility and 2 athletics. The effects of weight on both the absolute and relative running times were larger for character with higher agility and athletics:

                                                  60 weight run time/ 0 weight run time                               60 weight run time - 0 weight run time
Agility   3 and Athletics 1:                        1.13                                                                            3.21 seconds
Agility 15 and Athletics 5:                        1.20                                                                            4.21 seconds
Agility 27 and Athletics 9:                        1.24                                                                            4.48 seconds

Tests were also conducted to separate the effects of agility and athletics. The following plot shows the run times for 3, 6, 9, 12, and 15 agility with 0 athletics.
(click to show/hide)

The following plots show the run times for 3, 6, 9, 12, and 15 agility with between 0 athletics and the maximum athletic possible at each agility.
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

From these plot it can be seen that increasing agility and athletics independently reduces run time, and increasing athletics by 1 is approximately equal to increasing agility by 4 to 5 in terms of decreasing run time.

Held weapons cause an additional run time increase based on weapon weight and weapon length. The following plot shows the run times for a 27 agility and 9 athletics character carrying 15 total weight of equipment and holding different weapons.
(click to show/hide)

From this plot it can be seen that an increase in weapon length will increase run time for a given weapon weight, and an increase in weapon weight will increase run time for a given weapon length. One-handed weapons appear to count as more weight than two-handed or polearm weapons of the same in game weight for the purposes of this run time increase:

Listed one-handed weapon weight                      Effective weight for calculation
                 1                                                                         1.5
                1.5                                                                        2
                 2                                                                          3

The run time increase due to held weapons appears to be additive to the run time increase due to carried weight as all of the run time verses weapon length lines can be fitted well with a run time-axis intercept of 20 seconds, which is the run time for the 27 agility and 9 athletics character used for this test while carrying 15 weight of equipment with no held weapon. The magnitude of the slopes for the different weapon weight lines have a linear relationship with weapon weight as seen the following plot.
(click to show/hide)

Unfortunately, only the trends can be generalized as both the relative and absolute changes in run time due to held weapons vary with agility, athletics, and weight. However, the linear behavior does allow for interpolation for all weapons using a relatively small number of tests for a given agility, athletics, and weight combination.

Holding a single shield was found to increase run time by the same amount as adding the weight of the shield as armor or carried weight. However, holding one shield while wearing another on your back was found increased the run time as if the character was carrying significantly more weight then they actual were. For example, the run time for a 27 agility and 9 athletics character carrying 15 weight of items including one held shield and one worn shield was equal to that of the same character carrying 60 weight of items.

Moving forward while blocking or chambering an attack increased run time by 17% + or - 1%. Back peddling increased run time by 52% + or - 2%. Back peddling while blocking or chambering an attack increased run time by 53% + or - 2%. These finding suggest that whatever mechanism is responsible for the run time increase due to blocking/chamber while moving forward is nearly inoperative while back peddling. So, you might as well spam or turtle while backing up...

Rain increased run times by 8.5% + or - 0.5%. Fog has no effect on run time. Interestingly, the weather you observe has limited significance on the actual weather effect you will experience. I think this is the result of the weather effect on running (and I would assume crossbows) being determined when the map loads but the graphical effects being determined when a player joins the server.

EDIT: Corrected dead link
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: MountedRhader on March 25, 2011, 06:37:45 am
I desperately need a summary of this so I don't have to read all of that technical mumbo-jumbo.  :shock:
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Kung Fu Jesus on March 25, 2011, 06:53:40 am
I had no idea weather did anything except look cool or annoying.

Also, am I to understand that carrying a weapon makes you move slower than sheathing the weapon, depending on length and weight? So on top of my total weight causing me to be slower, which includes the weapon, if I bring out my German Great Sword and just carry it, I am even slower?
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Jan_van_Zuidwijk on March 25, 2011, 06:58:14 am
I desperately need a summary of this so I don't have to read all of that technical mumbo-jumbo.  :shock:

Yeah? And maybe he can translate it into Swahili as well.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Vibe on March 25, 2011, 07:23:51 am
WaltF4 wins internet again

To summarize for the lazy people (although I still think you should read the whole WaltF4 post):

- total equipment weight decreases your speed (doesn't matter whether it's weapons or gear, it's all additive to same value)
- ath increases your speed
- agi increases your speed (1ath = 4-5 agi)
- higher agi characters suffer more speed penalty by weight
- held weapons decrease speed based on weapon weight AND weapon length (meaning - weight:5 2H decreases more than weight:5 1H)
- carrying a shield on the back while holding another shield decreases speed by a lot more than the weight sum should
- moving while blocking/chambering decreases speed
- back peddling decreases speed by about 50%
- back peddling while blocking/chambering speed decrease is about the same as while back peddling without blocking/chambering
- rain decreases speed

If something is incorrect or missing, please correct me.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Spawny on March 25, 2011, 09:08:14 am
- back peddling while blocking/chambering speed decrease is about the same as while moving forward

Back peddling gives a -52% decrease in speed, while chambering/blocking while back peddling gives a -53% speed decrease. So there's no reason not to spam attacks or turtle while back peddling.


Btw, thanks for the information Walt.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Perceval on March 25, 2011, 09:37:14 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCWA7uevo_Q#t=2m30s
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Vibe on March 25, 2011, 10:15:48 am
Back peddling gives a -52% decrease in speed, while chambering/blocking while back peddling gives a -53% speed decrease.

Fixed
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Kryser on March 25, 2011, 10:39:25 am
I wish every thread on this forum was started by walt. Thank you sir. Your knowledge is vast and beautiful.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: MouthnHoof on March 25, 2011, 12:11:06 pm
weight and athletics (perhaps agi also) seem to affect the acceleration much more than the top speed. I imagine that the differences in the first plot will be much more dramatic if the running distance was considerably shorter. For battle movement the acceleration is much more important than the top speed.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Poetrydog on March 25, 2011, 01:00:52 pm
Great post! Could be interesting to also hear about acceleration. This should definitely be added to the crpg wiki!  :)
Once more, great job Walt!  :D
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 25, 2011, 02:10:12 pm
Thank you for this!
The weapon length making you go slower I wasn't sure on and this clarifies a lot. I think all high agi/ath characters will now be sheathing when running.

Agi increasing run speed independent on athletics I was never sure about.
And jesus christ do I wish it would stop raining all the time.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Phazey on March 25, 2011, 04:26:56 pm
*applauds*

Kudos to Walt for all the testing and the interesting report. Thanks! +1 to all of you good testers.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on March 25, 2011, 04:29:47 pm
Wow...how much sparetime have u got?
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Astinus on March 25, 2011, 04:40:45 pm
Very nice thread dude!
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 25, 2011, 05:12:30 pm
Wow...how much sparetime have u got?

He tests instead of playing the game.
Think of how much time you would have if you did not play this game, but instead did testing.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Torp on March 25, 2011, 07:33:51 pm
i love you.... twice!
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Memento_Mori on March 25, 2011, 07:55:51 pm
WaltF4 wins internet again

To summarize for the lazy people (although I still think you should read the whole WaltF4 post):

- total equipment weight decreases your speed (doesn't matter whether it's weapons or gear, it's all additive to same value)
- ath increases your speed
- agi increases your speed (1ath = 4-5 agi)
- higher agi characters suffer more speed penalty by weight
- held weapons decrease speed based on weapon weight AND weapon length (meaning - weight:5 2H decreases more than weight:5 1H)
- carrying a shield on the back while holding another shield decreases speed by a lot more than the weight sum should
- moving while blocking/chambering decreases speed
- back peddling decreases speed by about 50%
- back peddling while blocking/chambering speed decrease is about the same as while back peddling without blocking/chambering
- rain decreases speed

If something is incorrect or missing, please correct me.

Thank you for the summary us stupid lazy people can understand without any doubt :D


& Thank you WaltF4, lots of respect to you for 1) Even doing these tests in the first place 2) for posting online so others may also benefit from your finds.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Phazey on March 25, 2011, 08:15:55 pm
Might be a useless remark, but i'm quite happy the weight system is so balanced. Weight matters and every bit counts.

Carrying around extra gear is a bad idea. I've always felt that but this proves it. Great system, thanks chadz and co.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Mtemtko on March 25, 2011, 08:27:44 pm
Well done , 100+
Btw, snow is the same as rain in effects, just different look?
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: WaltF4 on March 25, 2011, 09:14:29 pm
I desperately need a summary of this so I don't have to read all of that technical mumbo-jumbo.  :shock:
Most of the information I presented was already qualitatively understood. Presenting quantitative data without explaining the data generation is negligent at best and fraudulent at worst.



Yeah? And maybe he can translate it into Swahili as well.
Now poorly translated into Swahili!
(click to show/hide)



Also, am I to understand that carrying a weapon makes you move slower than sheathing the weapon, depending on length and weight? So on top of my total weight causing me to be slower, which includes the weapon, if I bring out my German Great Sword and just carry it, I am even slower?
Yes and yes.



- held weapons decrease speed based on weapon weight AND weapon length (meaning - weight:5 2H decreases more than weight:5 1H)

If something is incorrect or missing, please correct me.
A weapon's weight adds to your total weight as normal, with or without holding the weapon, for the purpose of the running speed reduction due to weight. Holding the weapon further decreases your running speed by an amount depending on the weight and length of the weapon. The running speed reduction due to holding a weapon is larger for heavier and longer weapons. Holding a 2 weight, 100 length weapon would slow you down more than holding a 1 weight, 100 length weapon. And holding a 2 weight, 100 length weapon would slow you down more than holding a 2 weight, 50 length weapon. One handed weapons count as weighting more than the listed amount for how much the weapon weighs for the held weapon running speed reduction calculation. So, I could not tell you which of Vibe's hypothetical weapons would slow you down more without additional information.



weight and athletics (perhaps agi also) seem to affect the acceleration much more than the top speed. I imagine that the differences in the first plot will be much more dramatic if the running distance was considerably shorter. For battle movement the acceleration is much more important than the top speed.
I think you are correct on all points. I will try finding a suitable short track. The need for alignment reference points greatly reduces the possible locations, and I think very good reference points will be needed to minimize measurement error in short distance running. 



Btw, snow is the same as rain in effects, just different look?
It has not snowed on the duel server for me to test.



Also, there seems to be an awesome bar vandal around here.... I don't think I could have offended almost 20 people over lunch :P
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Zisa on March 25, 2011, 11:18:09 pm
+1
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Gafferjack on March 26, 2011, 03:04:39 am
I wish my threads were as smart as your threads.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Dexxtaa on March 26, 2011, 03:39:45 am
As always, Walt only opens his mouth when there's something valuable to say (unlike most of us xD)

Props for making this thread. Very informative.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Polobow on March 26, 2011, 05:12:15 am
For detailed info! Hooray. +1
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: dynamike on March 28, 2011, 10:12:14 pm
WaltF-antastic post ! Will use this knowledge to hunt down my opponents in a most effective way  :twisted:

+1 for you, good sir
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Kafein on April 08, 2011, 10:53:35 am
Now poorly translated into Swahili!

You made my day  :lol:

Excellent work BTW  :!:
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Cyclopsided on May 14, 2011, 09:41:37 am
BUmping thread [why isn't this stickied, other walt posts should be too]
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: 7000bc on October 27, 2011, 05:37:23 am
Walt has created a new science field. "The Science of the Nuances of CRPG"
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Nagasoup on October 27, 2011, 09:59:34 am
Sigh.. you're report is more detailed than some of the reports i submit for school.  :lol:

Great post Walt. chadz should fund your research with crpg gold  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Jarlek on December 17, 2011, 01:39:45 am
Bump to make this stickied. Had to spend a lot of time digging this up.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: San on December 17, 2011, 02:34:54 am
There's much more useful data than this (wpf, weight, swing speed, cost of equipment per multi, etc). It would be nice to sticky a data compendium that links to known posts that provide info about the game.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 17, 2011, 05:49:35 am
There's much more useful data than this (wpf, weight, swing speed, cost of equipment per multi, etc). It would be nice to sticky a data compendium that links to known posts that provide info about the game.
Just bring them to my attention (like this one) and I will add them to the stickied guide.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Inkompetent on December 17, 2011, 06:00:59 pm
Hadn't seen this one before. Thanks for an awesome (and ought-to-be-stickied) thread!
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Winterly on December 17, 2011, 07:55:08 pm
A bit out of date since the recent patch...armor weights are icky....
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: WaltF4 on December 17, 2011, 08:12:59 pm
A bit out of date since the recent patch...armor weights are icky....

Care to elaborate?
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Winterly on December 17, 2011, 08:51:25 pm
Well, Kartoffeln and I were testing out Athletics and Armor weights...It seems like in the recent patch, the effect of armor weight on run speed is drastically altered.  It seems like acceleration is given a little boost if you're wearing lighter armor but that is about it.  Heavy armor also loses a little max speed.  However, the difference was not noticeable when we both had 7 athletics. Kart was wearing Milanese Plate with Helmet and Boots, while I wore Black Lamellar + Leather Gloves/No Helm/Light Strange Greaves.

However, we did not do any of the in-depth timing. :[
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Tot. on December 17, 2011, 09:18:19 pm
Sticky?
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: SixThumbs on December 18, 2011, 08:07:32 pm
Definitely, this is the kind of information that should have it's own sub-forum that is locked after a certain period of discussion and is easily accessibly to newbies should they need or want the info.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: ToxicKilla on December 23, 2011, 04:01:25 pm
I demand a WaltF4 sub-forum where only he can create new threads.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Renten on December 23, 2011, 10:12:55 pm
I would like to see some more indepth testing involving shields and run speed. I wish I could make STF characters whenever, I would do the testing myself.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Dravic on February 15, 2012, 07:50:02 pm
Bump for future generations.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Ridicule on April 04, 2012, 04:52:56 pm
Please sticky this, so much valuable information.  Had to go digging for it again.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Klauwaert on June 05, 2012, 05:34:33 pm
Please sticky this, so much valuable information.  Had to go digging for it again.
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: chaosegg on December 27, 2013, 01:18:33 am
?is this information is still accurate / up-to-date?
Title: Re: Running in cRPG
Post by: Cyclopsided on December 27, 2013, 12:43:47 pm
Yes, it is still accurate and up to date. The mechanics themselves for running have not been changed.