cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Zapier on May 03, 2012, 06:28:32 am
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Since when is using spawn tents legal in siege? Or for that matter any game mode? I thought those were a purely Strategus thing... especially when it's obviously being used to be abusive for attackers. Take tonight for example with KUTT primarily being the vocal supporters of said tactic... so using the forward base, if it survived through the match, those using it to spawn now spawned at the start of the next round inside the walls, allowing them to quickly open gates within 5 seconds.
Being seemed to be happy with this since it allowed for fast and easy victories for attackers, and anyone upset with this had mostly KUTT telling them to 'take it to the forums then!' or 'admins use it' and the lovely 'only organized groups know how to do it' responses. Am I really one of the few who find this tactic abusive? If the forward base spawn reset at the end of the match, that'd be one thing but it obviously persists and it happened on multiple maps where people got these forward bases in locations that didn't get them destroyed easily... talk about making siege viable only for attackers... since what good would spawning outside with a forward spawn point do for any defenders?
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I'm not too sure about the ruling on thoses Tents, through I know Frank the Tank is suggesting some ways to fix the problem.
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The tents are legit. If the defenders are so inept that an engineer team can penetrate the castle and spend 90 seconds building the thing with out being stopped and then the defenders can't be arsed to go and destroy it who's fault is that?
The major issue with it is team swapping. People can go from attacker to defender and vis versa, its a real bastard.
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I personally don't like to use them at moment because the team swapping is INSANE because of the amount of different banners floating around. I often get team swapped every round.
Also this morning/(night time NA) in a display of raging stupid the server banned Reak_1 for "opening the doors" when in fact we had both been team swapped 2 rounds previous and I had been returned to attacker. ie I opened the doors and he tried to stop me. He did fail so maybe he was justly punished, but I have 8ATH he really didn't stand a chance.
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the tents are fine, the problem is them not auto-destructing at the end of the round. its totally unfair advantage for offense the next round
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Due to the nature of them being broken as a game mechanic and not destroying at the end of the round...
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they aren't allowed.
When tent usage is fixed, sure, allowed! But until then, no.
I think everyone else will agree with me.
This is under discussion now amongst the admins, we'll get back on a final consensus. Until then, Spawn tents in siege are not allowed.
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I really fail to see how this is unfair, considering it was easily destroyed a couple maps when a few defenders took the time to attack it, the other half of the time the spawn wasn't even protected. Also, note, that it took valuable time from us pushing the flag to build those items. Sure, we got an advantage the next couple of rounds, but what would be the point of making an effort to build all the equipment and potentially losing that round if it didn't benefit us in the end?
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I think having them be destroyed is excessive and would reduce them to being useless. A 2-4 man team still needs about half a round to get one deployed in a half way useful place, which would have very little impact on the round due to the amount of time it takes for each person to select it as spawn 1 person at a time. It would make it more less make the thing pointless.
The main problem as I see it is not being de-selected. If everyone was re-set every round then the defense would have the time to destroy it and we wouldn't have the problem of people being team swapped and being able to magic gates open like I did earlier today.
I would say for the time being they should only be outside the gates of a castle.
Otherwise we are heading towards ladder territory and have to start asking questions like why did those damned things get banned grrrrrr.
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I agree about spawns only being used outside of walls, we only actually used a spawn once in the walls, the rest of the times were just used to get up to the gates quicker so we didn't have to walk up tedious hills or spawn in random spots far away from each other. Also, we didn't build the spawn until the second round so none of that team switch stuff happened.
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I should come work with you guys next time your on, get some of the ST6 guys to come. We shall build a mighty fort.
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if you break doors down, do they not get reset at the end of the round? does the gatehouse stay open?
if you think the tents should last thru rounds your a fuc en moron.
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Cheers Digglez, your a bright and reasonable person.
Also fuck has a k in it, and the word you were looking for is fucking, a fucking moron.
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Well, Digglez does have a point though. Spawn deselect or not... the tent and anything done/created during a round should disappear or else gatehouses should stay open and doors should also stay destroyed... after all, attackers might spend half a round chopping down doors too... so unfair to make them do it again...
I just can't believe... well, okay I do believe, but I can't understand how there can actually be a number of people that don't see the abusive usage of them right now no matter how easy they are to destroy. If they can create something that shouldn't be happening (i.e. attackers spawning inside walls at the beginning of a map when they should be spawning outside) then common sense would say the only real choice is to make sure it never takes place. In this instance, having players refrain from using them. It's the only simple solution that avoids the abusive usage until something can be done to change it, if ever.
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It definitely needs to, at the very least, deselect spawnpoints at the ends of rounds. You also have a good point in your comparison between the investment of breaking down doors vs. putting up a spawn tent. I think siege implements add more depth to siege and while I think spawn tents could use some work, I don't want them making them unusable.
I'd like to clarify some things, though. Not one time in the long duration that I was on last night did we actually have a tent inside castle walls. The one time people are probably claiming it was, it was at the end of a long hallway that led to the flag, but came from the outside. You could see it from outside the castle, if it were 5 feet further out of the hallway it would have been completely outside castle walls. We never used a spawn location to open doors or gates in an abnormal fashion. I told my clan-mates that I wasn't going to allow such things, at least until there is a ruling by someone with authority on the matter.
Also, the spawn tent got countered on multiple occasions. We learned tonight that putting it anywhere near elevated positions is dangerous because if one guy gets on top of it, it's done. One map a guy even made a glorious leap from the castle walls where we didn't think they'd be able to get and made it on top of the tent.
I find it surprising that you don't think forward spawns would be advantageous to defenders. There are a lot of maps that have just the most godawful spawn points for defenders, where you have to run halfway across the map to get anywhere useful. We used one defensive tent tonight, we tried to use others but we kept derping it in one way or another.
Edit:Also, I told my guys not to mess with them on the first round to avoid messy teamswap situations. Just so everyone knows, and this applies to any situation, if you're having any trouble with any of the guys in KUTT, just let me know!
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There were a couple maps where it was put inside the 'walls'. One map it didn't really matter and just led to one guy getting killed I think like 40 times, but the second map was the one with the double doors at the bottom of the really tall hill map... wish I could remember the map name. Anyways, a spawn tent got setup just inside the gates, and it survived a couple rounds since no one noticed it at first given how the gates are not typically defended as it is, and it was pushed up against a building. Attackers got to start a couple rounds with someone already inside the open the gate right away, as opposed to spending a minute or two chopping on the gate which is what gives defenders a chance to setup.
I can't say that KUTT was responsible, I was just saying a couple KUTT members, as well as one or two more, voiced their support over said tactic (and being told that organized groups know how to properly use them by said people just implies a clan or group of friends planning it) when some people complained. Instead of joining into that debate in game, I simply started this thread. No head-hunting or anything, just simple discussion as to why some sort of clear rule/guideline should be laid out as to it's usage in siege... especially when someone defended the use of a spawn camp inside closed gates by saying that admins do it, so it's okay. If that's true, then I think the admin is also out of line... but that's beside the point. I just don't see any reason for anyone to claim that spawn tents that persist through multiple rounds if ignored/not known is just clever strategy when it more or less defies the point of resetting doors and gates.
Being used outside of doors/walled areas I think is a somewhat acceptable compromise for those that wish to use them, because they are a good strategy... they do help for some tricky spawns or just keeping people one step closer to an objective. The after-the-round effects of surviving tents are just too abusive or annoying, depending on which side you're on when you spawn there, to have people simply shrug their shoulders and say, 'Well, too bad you lost as defenders within two minutes on a map that clearly takes longer because you didn't notice our hidden spawn tent that allowed us to open your defenses from the inside.'
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People seriously think it should last through the map rounds? people starting with spawn 5 seconds from flag/key gate???
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No, I really didn't explain what I thought was fair and unfair because it was 5 A.M. when I typed the message and I just wanted to get a post up before I went to sleep. I do agree that the persisting spawn is totally unfair. I just wanted to say that we really weren't trying to be unfair we just thought we were using good teamwork so that is why we were so defensive on the server when you called us out.
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Im all for progressing spawn points (I think siege would be more interesting as a capture point game like BF or something - take the gatehouse and then take the courtyard, and then the flag, or something)
...However, the simple fact remains that the current spawn tents PERSIST from round to round, and DO NOT RESET like every other aspect of the siege mode. So, if this is fixed, then its fine - but until then it is NOT good for gameplay and probably would fall under abuse of mechanics.
An equivalent abuse would be if there was a way to make it so that if you destroyed the gate the first round, the second round would start with the gate already destroyed......
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I think people have started to use this tactic and it's been less than a week. As with all games involving strategy, when a powerful new strategic element is introduced, it can often seem over-powered. I think we should give it time to see if defenders can learn to counter it.
I also think it is very important that if you get team-switched your spawn resets as well. Enemies should not be spawning at a team's forward spawn.
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Team-switched or not, no one should be spawning at these locations at the start of a round. Let's say attackers got a tent inside a hidden nook that's near a gate they can open quickly, sure if they get team-switched they shouldn't spawn there anymore, but neither should the attackers still on offense at the start of a round. Everyone should spawn at the regular starting spawn points, not get an advantage that persists through rounds.
This isn't about a strategy that's over-powered or new, it's about a strategy that creates an obvious abusive situation when things go right. Just because someone finds something that can be abused, doesn't mean they should be using it. Like when pikes and long spears weren't to be used on horseback, or the siege construction piles when they were indestructible. It wasn't a matter of being an over-powered strategy, but because they weren't working as intended.
Now, if the powers that be wish to rule that using spawn tents in their current state, that can lead to people spawning at the start of a round that bypasses defenses is fine and dandy, then I propose making doors and gates remain in their same conditions at the start of a new round. I mean, it would be just good strategy to go around breaking all the doors in the first round when they're weak so that you can have an easy path on the following rounds... and if the defenders can't counter that, well too bad, yes?
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we need to separate the discussion into 2 basic groups:
1 - strategic value
2 - current glitched/bugged state of the mechanic
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ok, now that that is done....
1 - yes, i agree, as i stated i LOVE the idea of progressing spawn points in siege! i think we should incorporate that into the very code of the mode itself! take the gatehouse, spawn there, take the courtyard, spawn there, etc.... things would have to be balanced by the devs overall to make this work but it would be a overall BONUS to siege mode imho.
2 - it is currently a glitched system and that is why people are opposed to its use in siege "IN ITS CURRENT FORM". its not complicated...just think about it - IT DOES NOT RESET AT THE END OF A ROUND. EVERYTHING ELSE DOES - doors, the flag, weapons on the ground, siege ladders, ladders, EVERYTHING. This part of the convo is pretty plain and simple imho.
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FRANK FOR ADMIN
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Fix that stupid shit, its already too easy for offensive team to capture flag without that. Plus the spawn point carry over the rounds so on top of making it unbalanced for the defensive team the mechanic of the tent is broken.
Siege was balanced without the tents and ladders.
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If the gear is going to be destroyed at the end of the round then it needs a serious re-balance of deployment costs.
But honestly just read through this argument and think about its ramifications for game play.
If all the spawns re-set but still stay in place the both the attacking and defending teams have to first get to the spawn and then set it as their spawn point.
Really the argument is, should this stuff be in the game? That is what it is down to. Should you be able to heal up, get more ammo, re-locate your spawn, knock down gates in 1-2 shots.
I think it should be in the game.
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Due to the nature of them being broken as a game mechanic and not destroying at the end of the round...
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they aren't allowed.
When tent usage is fixed, sure, allowed! But until then, no.
I think everyone else will agree with me.
This is under discussion now amongst the admins, we'll get back on a final consensus. Until then, Spawn tents in siege are not allowed.
Edited the post, updated.
Continue your debate as you will, but with the current state of things they will not be allowed.
If some rules can be agreed upon, this may change.
That means if you are still doing it: Stop.
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Does that mean just no spawn points marathon?
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No spawn tents until rules are agreed upon amongst all the admins.
If they're allowed at all, we'll see! I hope they can be fixed someday.
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Yeah they just removed all of it from the game with the new patch. So I don't think you need to worry about it marathon. Also I don't mean the tent, the stopped all of it from working. When you build a weapons rack it just disappears.
If this isn't just some stuff up that puts an end to it for me. I've tried all the other classes with my 280 ping, in the end I had to coble a functional "engineer" out of the siege gear and throwing, its not a even a real fucking class but at least I could still play.
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Just tested other stuff on the duel server.
Weapons racks seem to be the only thing that doesn't work. I built a healing tent by dieing over and over again :/ slow, annoying process.
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the fun police on crpg really do ruin everything
The forward base could have just simply been scripted to have less HP and die after the end of the round, like maybe the same kind of HP as a healing tent so even someone throwing rocks can take it down
Weapon racks, idk what the point of that was, now being a defensive thrower on siege got a lot harder due to either only being able to throw when they get up the wall, or suicide to regain your ammo.
Thanks!
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the fun police on crpg really do ruin everything
The forward base could have just simply been scripted to have less HP and die after the end of the round, like maybe the same kind of HP as a healing tent so even someone throwing rocks can take it down
Weapon racks, idk what the point of that was, now being a defensive thrower on siege got a lot harder due to either only being able to throw when they get up the wall, or suicide to regain your ammo.
Thanks!
Exactly, I want them to be working functional things in siege. The problem was that they were broken.
If they just released a patch disabling them, well, problem solved, thread should be closed.
I loved the idea of all these things working and being strategic options in siege, but coding needs to be done for that (and I'm not a coder)
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Hopefully they be able to fix it so it works more properly to stay in line with somehow resetting after rounds... then we can have them back.
Really the argument is, should this stuff be in the game? That is what it is down to.
That was never my argument, and I'm not sure many other people were arguing that way either. No one wants to see things removed, but only if they work properly. Obviously, the spawn tents in siege aren't working 100% as intended so it's better to avoid the potential headaches and have them disabled/disallowed till they no longer do that.
If anyone thinks the argument was simply about removing spawn tents from siege, then they missed the greater picture I think. I, for one, would just like them fixed if they are going to be allowed, and until then have them disallowed. I don't want to potentially lose modifiers because of a spawn tent creating scenarios that shouldn't be happening in the first place.
As for the weapon rack issues... well, that wasn't even an issue in my OP, but they're obviously showing the same symptoms the spawn tents are of what the admins don't want happening... i.e. not going away at the end of a round.
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Exactly, I want them to be working functional things in siege. The problem was that they were broken.
If they just released a patch disabling them, well, problem solved, thread should be closed.
I loved the idea of all these things working and being strategic options in siege, but coding needs to be done for that (and I'm not a coder)
Maybe after this round of bullshit we can have ladders back on siege
Unless the concept of "hold the same choke points over and over" again really sounds like fun to them. Ladders were fine on siege, they added an element of surprise and tactics because you could siege the castle almost any way. Its not like it is hard for the defenders to notice the swarm of attackers going a certain way, the only reason they would lose is not paying attention to the attackers. I however 100% fully understand why there are no ladders on battle, but fuck give us something for siege.
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Yeah its pretty disappointing for me. It's the only "class" I had left that was still fun and useful.
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Hopefully they be able to fix it so it works more properly to stay in line with somehow resetting after rounds... then we can have them back.
That was never my argument, and I'm not sure many other people were arguing that way either. No one wants to see things removed, but only if they work properly. Obviously, the spawn tents in siege aren't working 100% as intended so it's better to avoid the potential headaches and have them disabled/disallowed till they no longer do that.
If anyone thinks the argument was simply about removing spawn tents from siege, then they missed the greater picture I think. I, for one, would just like them fixed if they are going to be allowed, and until then have them disallowed. I don't want to potentially lose modifiers because of a spawn tent creating scenarios that shouldn't be happening in the first place.
As for the weapon rack issues... well, that wasn't even an issue in my OP, but they're obviously showing the same symptoms the spawn tents are of what the admins don't want happening... i.e. not going away at the end of a round.
That was other peoples argument. Really though this stuff needs to actually have time to settle in. Playing for a week in a sea of nubs is no test. We only just started getting the clans back into the server and its all been pulled.
Also I don't see how removing all of it from every game mode is a "fix" why not just disable the forward spawn from appearing, why disable the weapons rack so you can't use anything at all?????
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That was other peoples argument. Really though this stuff needs to actually have time to settle in. Playing for a week in a sea of nubs is no test. We only just started getting the clans back into the server and its all been pulled.
Also I don't see how removing all of it from every game mode is a "fix" why not just disable the forward spawn from appearing, why disable the weapons rack so you can't use anything at all?????
could u imagine if instead of removing polestun they removed polearms instead
that would be great
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Give the devs some time to code a fix for the issue, and you'll have them back and working as intended.
The best thing you guys can do is present some good concise arguments and convince them to follow through.
Not like I won't try.
I really want these things in the game working properly. Something as simple as destroyed at end of round.
could u imagine if instead of removing polestagger they removed polearms instead
that would be great
Lol, didn't they actually remove polestagger for a day or so, before putting it back or something? I kind of remember something like that happening and a huge thread of anger about polestagger in the game balance threads...
huh, probably my imagination.
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Enjoy le lols
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Siege sucked once they removed ladders. Siege is horrific now without ladders and siege equipment. Why don't they just rename Siege to, "Swarm the Castle Through Three Fixed Entrances"
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I liked ladders.
I loved the idea of more build-able siege items.
I hope it all gets worked out and I can spend part of my summer enjoying a siege server that has everything working as intended.
(I miss ladders, I mean, they fixed ladder towering and that solved all the problems a long time ago I thought)
You can still place siege shields though, eh!, eh? That's like, cool and stuff.
No really you can use them to elevator your way up to areas like ladders by standing on them. You can even use them to bridge certain gaps in maps like a really tiny ladder.
But they'll never be ladders...
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Siege sucked once they removed ladders. Siege is horrific now without ladders and siege equipment. Why don't they just rename Siege to, "Swarm the Castle Through Three Fixed Entrances"
Yeah, rather than have the siege server run castles designed to be used without ladders and disabling ladders I would prefer if we had siege maps designed to be used with deployable siege equipment.
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Yeah, rather than have the siege server run castles designed to be used without ladders and disabling ladders I would prefer if we had siege maps designed to be used with deployable siege equipment.
Yeah I always thought I would be way more fun if the maps just had a break able gate and you had to bring your own ladders and siege gear. It would be much more fun, and it would simulate Strat a whole shit load more as well.
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I really wonder if most peoples posting on this thread actually play on siege.
I play exclusively on siege and ladders on siege was totally unbalanced since offensive team win more often on mostly all maps. With ladders the defensive team had very little chance to win rounds.
Now without ladders siege and a 5min round time is close to be balanced.
I dont care if you think its less fun the bottom line should be to make it balanced for both teams.
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1 day I was in siege on defense and halfway through I saw their foward spawn and I went to attack it, but one man wasnt going to do anything to this tent especially after couching it twice and swinging like a mad man with an endless amount of enemies spawning right next to me. This didn't make me angry, what made me angry was how difficult it was to attack this thing and not relaying on backup because everyone else was occupied with ONE objective.
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I like how Zapier keeps referring to KUTT and mis-quoting what I said.
I said take it to the forums, because whoever it was was crying up a storm in-game when all we did was agree with you.
I also said that you don't see them implemented because it -does- take coordination. Para and I spent 4 minutes building that one, and given its position you all spawned right next to it and could have destroyed it.
It's not easy to set up unless you've done it a few times. I think the best suggestion so far I've seen would to make it de-selected by everyone at the end of the round, but still persist through the rounds until it's destroyed. Maybe lower it's health a little? Though it takes like 8-10 swings from a player with 3 Powerstrike to destroy. Yesterday was the first complaining I've ever seen about the tents, though it's been used for a few weeks more often in Siege. Most players applaud the ability to put them up in strategically good places. I mean hell, if we wanted to, we could have put them right on your flag and had our team spawn there but we put it by the gate, still 1000ft from your flag.
TL;DR (for those that are lazy) -- Don't misquote me and lump my clan in with what I say, and also, best suggestion is them staying through rounds, but spawns being de-selected so your team has to spend another 2 minutes just getting 12-15 people to set their spawn there. Lower their health a little bit too.
One thing I wish we could have in Siege would be Door-Rams. Build it up, take it to the door, and ram the door 4-5 times to take that gate down. Of course, it's just one gate, but still, would be fun to see a team come up with one quickly.
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You can blast the doors real good with a catapult but you need 12 guys (+engineer) on your team to spawn at the start of the round with only construction stuff rapid deploy it, die get back to it and fire. There are 2 maps where this would by a shit load faster than any other option, but like I said you would need real co-ordination.
I hope we get the gear back soon. I decided to play for a little why anyway and had the misfortune of getting ATHW while I was carrying a pile of shit :/ I finally would have gotten a tick in construction sites :I but at least I can make ninja stars and some other random crap I picked up off the ground, woo.
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hopefully they took it out in the patch to make it work properly and will reintroduce it once it does work PROPERLY.
but i understand them removing it until that point.
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Frank, did I understand your post correctly? Weapons racks aren't working anymore? Reminds me of the .gif of the classroom where one kid messes with another kid from behind, and the kid that got messed with turns around and smashes someone random who did nothing. Poor weapon racks.
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0000257: Disable forward bases and weapon racks in non-Strategus modes
Status resolved
The first game balance related change that KUTT directly caused.
They just can't let us have any reprieve in siege, at least give us the ladders back.
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Imo. that's dumb. If they actually have the time to build something from a construction site, your team's archers obviously aren't doing a well enough job defending. But I can agree on the ladder thing.
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wtf why the weapons racks? what did they do to anybody?! There's not really any useful way to build anything from a c-site on siege anymore.
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0000257: Disable forward bases and weapon racks in non-Strategus modes
Status resolved
The first game balance related change that KUTT directly caused.
They just can't let us have any reprieve in siege, at least give us the ladders back.
Where did you find the changelog?
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Where did you find the changelog?
Just checked in the bug tracker: http://bugtracker.c-rpg.net/view.php?id=257
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Lies para, how dare you dismiss my efforts!
Why only 2 weeks ago I ninjed the siege server for 2 hours with Hospitaller. I planted a good half dozen forward bases right on top of the flag. One map was over in under 30 seconds. That's when I worked out the thing was FUBAR and needed a patch and I stopped building them inside (more or less. I've done it about 3 times since then).
hopefully they took it out in the patch to make it work properly and will reintroduce it once it does work PROPERLY.
but i understand them removing it until that point.
Like poop said, should we just remove pole arms until we can fix polestagger? The solution wasn't to just destroy my class, the solution was to fix the Forward Base, and if it was going to take time make that thing not spawn. This is just a blanket ban on my class. We've already been kicked in the balls, I mean nerfed twice.
If you don't know about ye olde history of siege gear it goes like this. Once upon a time a single man could easily build almost anything. Healing tents were like 5 con mats.
We would merely hurl ladders about and chase each other through sky. It was possible back in ye olden times to send enemies plunging to their deaths with a mighty wave of ladderpults.
Then came the crying and tawdry little bitches. They cried and whined and they drove the devs to a dire decision.
Fuck being poetic, point is
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Honestly we wouldn't even use the forward spawns if the spawn points weren't so ballbreaking on some of these siege maps. We never needed to use them on the native maps because they had more balanced spawn locations for both sides.
And yes frank, you did inspire us to do this, so you do get your lions share of the credit. Between KUTT and yourself there are about four complaint threads on this issue.
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Honestly we wouldn't even use the forward spawns if the spawn points weren't so ballbreaking on some of these siege maps. We never needed to use them on the native maps because they had more balanced spawn locations for both sides.
And yes frank, you did inspire us to do this, so you do get your lions share of the credit. Between KUTT and yourself there are about four complaint threads on this issue.
Sweet, finally having an impact :D just wish it hadn't involved my class being removed from the game :(
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,31275.0.html
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Why only 2 weeks ago I ninjed the siege server for 2 hours with Hospitaller. I planted a good half dozen forward bases right on top of the flag. One map was over in under 30 seconds. That's when I worked out the thing was FUBAR and needed a patch and I stopped building them inside (more or less. I've done it about 3 times since then).
Like poop said, should we just remove pole arms until we can fix polestagger? The solution wasn't to just destroy my class, the solution was to fix the Forward Base, and if it was going to take time make that thing not spawn. This is just a blanket ban on my class. We've already been kicked in the balls, I mean nerfed twice.
If you don't know about ye olde history of siege gear it goes like this. Once upon a time a single man could easily build almost anything. Healing tents were like 5 con mats.
We would merely hurl ladders about and chase each other through sky. It was possible back in ye olden times to send enemies plunging to their deaths with a mighty wave of ladderpults.
Then came the crying and tawdry little bitches. They cried and whined and they drove the devs to a dire decision.
You should stick to being poetic. Many of us played during all those times... some of us more than others... some of us on and off over the years. You know, you say it's the little bitches with their crying that ruined those good ol' days... but aren't you trying to now do the same thing? You're crying and whining about them doing 'a blanket ban on [your] class' and for what? In hopes they return to you your tools to use things that are not working as intended? How are you any better than the people you're bitching about?
Let's go off on the polestagger tangent for a minute, even though it really has no place in this discussion... there's a huge difference between something working as intended but being unbalanced and something that isn't working as intended and doing things that aren't meant to be done. When something isn't working the way it should, yes it should be removed until it can be fixed to work as it should. When something is simply unbalanced in the eyes of its players, like many see polestagger, then it needs to be balanced... but you hardly have to remove something that is actually working the way it should. Like it or not, polestagger is working the way it's supposed to... so no it doesn't need to just have all weapons removed using it... it just needs to be properly balanced.
Spawn tents keeping their spawn point after a round is over was neither balanced nor working as intended. You yourself just described how you were able to ninja a flag in 30 seconds and with Hospitaller you ninja'd the siege server for 2 hours. Your own admission describes what is so broken about it. I have yet to see polestagger truly affect a game in such a way. It's annoying as hell, but 2handers... 1handers... they seem to kill people just as easily...
Now, let's apply some of this to the ladderpults... just so we can see another example of something not working properly. I remember those... battle servers... narrow bridge full of people and someone could just run up and pop comes a ladder magically from under the ground... lifting people up and up until they jumped to their deaths or were tossed to their deaths when they broke... what an innovative tool! Kill dozens of people, including friendlies, with a single click of a button. Yeah... when people think of siege ladders in a medieval combat game... they definitely think about how ladders should be capable of flinging people like catapults... those ladders sure worked perfectly, didn't they? About as perfect as watching ladder built upon ladder, built upon ladder up into the heavens... I bet you enjoyed those days too and touted your banners and slogans when people were told to no longer do that... and bitched about people bitching to have it stopped... and how the whining and crying players ruined your fun... well, things generally get removed when they get abused too much... some people can tolerate it a little... some not at all...
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tl;dr for all the people who have attention spans shorter than a gnat... people crying about their toys being taken away are no better than the ones crying to have them taken away in the first place... so everyone can get off their high horse.
Bring back the siege equipment when they can properly disappear at the end of a round. I think that's only fair since everything else gets reset. The time and effort it takes to build and protect such things are the same sacrifices some people make to chop down doors and gates round after round. I see no reason for anything to persist longer than a round.
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You should stick to being poetic. Many of us played during all those times... some of us more than others... some of us on and off over the years. You know, you say it's the little bitches with their crying that ruined those good ol' days... but aren't you trying to now do the same thing? You're crying and whining about them doing 'a blanket ban on [your] class' and for what? In hopes they return to you your tools to use things that are not working as intended? How are you any better than the people you're bitching about?
Let's go off on the polestagger tangent for a minute, even though it really has no place in this discussion... there's a huge difference between something working as intended but being unbalanced and something that isn't working as intended and doing things that aren't meant to be done. When something isn't working the way it should, yes it should be removed until it can be fixed to work as it should. When something is simply unbalanced in the eyes of its players, like many see polestagger, then it needs to be balanced... but you hardly have to remove something that is actually working the way it should. Like it or not, polestagger is working the way it's supposed to... so no it doesn't need to just have all weapons removed using it... it just needs to be properly balanced.
Spawn tents keeping their spawn point after a round is over was neither balanced nor working as intended. You yourself just described how you were able to ninja a flag in 30 seconds and with Hospitaller you ninja'd the siege server for 2 hours. Your own admission describes what is so broken about it. I have yet to see polestagger truly affect a game in such a way. It's annoying as hell, but 2handers... 1handers... they seem to kill people just as easily...
Now, let's apply some of this to the ladderpults... just so we can see another example of something not working properly. I remember those... battle servers... narrow bridge full of people and someone could just run up and pop comes a ladder magically from under the ground... lifting people up and up until they jumped to their deaths or were tossed to their deaths when they broke... what an innovative tool! Kill dozens of people, including friendlies, with a single click of a button. Yeah... when people think of siege ladders in a medieval combat game... they definitely think about how ladders should be capable of flinging people like catapults... those ladders sure worked perfectly, didn't they? About as perfect as watching ladder built upon ladder, built upon ladder up into the heavens... I bet you enjoyed those days too and touted your banners and slogans when people were told to no longer do that... and bitched about people bitching to have it stopped... and how the whining and crying players ruined your fun... well, things generally get removed when they get abused too much... some people can tolerate it a little... some not at all...
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tl;dr for all the people who have attention spans shorter than a gnat... people crying about their toys being taken away are no better than the ones crying to have them taken away in the first place... so everyone can get off their high horse.
Bring back the siege equipment when they can properly disappear at the end of a round. I think that's only fair since everything else gets reset. The time and effort it takes to build and protect such things are the same sacrifices some people make to chop down doors and gates round after round. I see no reason for anything to persist longer than a round.
You don't out right ban a whole class when there are rules in place that aren't being enforced. You enforce the rules.
Chill Zapier none of this rage is aimed at you. Its a general hate. You only seem to have 6 posts to your name all of which are in this thread so you might not have been here when I had to spend about a week solid defending the existence of engineers because they were "useless time wasters" and we "didn't contribute" and now we are OP game breakers.
Engineering is the only class that is playable for me. I have to play on NA servers with 280 ping because the Australian community is dead. I've kept on playing to help my friends and clan mates and after about 3-4 months of rolling through every class Shield, Polearm, 2h, Archer, Xbow, HA I finally thought fuck it dude and tried engineering in the hope I would both be useful and entertained. As luck would have it I was.
The reasons for pulling all the gear with no warning are dubious at best. No real effort was made to control the use of the gear. A few lone admins had to sit around and decide what was fare and then enforce that, which they did.
Bring back the siege equipment when they can properly disappear at the end of a round. I think that's only fair since everything else gets reset. The time and effort it takes to build and protect such things are the same sacrifices some people make to chop down doors and gates round after round. I see no reason for anything to persist longer than a round.
This would need to be balanced against the difficulty of construction. I personally don't think most of the gear needs to be reset, it adds an element of tactics to the game mode that it lacks. The better solution is to have all the spawn points reset so you have to go and select them again. That way building a spawn point inside a castle is pointless, it will be dead by the time you get back to it. And it also means the defenders can safely erect a spawn near to their flag and no have to worry about some magician poofing the doors and gates open.
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The changes I would make to "fix" the problem.
3 csites on the ground at ones, no more. That means until they are complete you can't go chuck a shit ton of them at ladder.
Half the health of the forward base, reset all spawns every round.
Double the health of the healing tent so it takes more than 1 hit from 6PS axe. Or about a dozen arrows.
Half the cost of deploying a catapult. They aren't cost effective in strat at all, so the whole strat argument doesn't hold water. At least this way they can be deployed as door breakers in time to actually break the doors.
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You know Frank is right. Seriously, don't make me go back and link to all those posts about how useless engineers are. And now they're overpowered...
It really does add a large element of strategy to what was a rigid game. I really hope that you guys put everything back in next patch with Frank's suggestions.
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Not to mention everyone is so wrapped up about spawn tents, that they forgot weapon racks were removed too, THAT'S what the bullshit part is. What was so broken about a weapon rack?
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Yeah, good point me from two years ago!
*cough*
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Yeah, good point me from two years ago!
*cough*
get a life
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get a life
No, you.
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I personally don't like to use them at moment because the team swapping is INSANE because of the amount of different banners floating around. I often get team swapped every round.
I agree that there is a lot of team swapping going on in the Siege server, but experience from a full EU server with Grey and HRE clanstacks revealed that the diversity of banners has nothing to do with how often you get swapped. It has often happened that both clans exchanged defender and attacker roles multiple times per map.
It seems to be an issue (not sure if bug or feature) with the Siege autobalance as such.
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http://forum.melee.org/announcements/official-server-rules/
Unless my eyes receive me, this doesnt say jack shit about building things with construction sites. Only "don't spam weapons and stuff".
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http://forum.melee.org/announcements/official-server-rules/
Unless my eyes receive me, this doesnt say jack shit about building things with construction sites. Only "don't spam weapons and stuff".
KUTT is innocent, dey din do nuffin'
m-muh necro though
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KUTT is innocent, dey din do nuffin'
m-muh necro though
Tasty necro right. This shit is 2+ years old. Crazy thing is I found it only 3 pages deep into the General Discussion somehow...
Oh yeah and bring back siege equipment in Siege you fuckers!!!
Bring it back and make it conquest only! WOO FOR FUN!
Also add balistas to the shit you can build already.
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Tasty necro right. This shit is 2+ years old. Crazy thing is I found it only 3 pages deep into the General Discussion somehow...
Oh yeah and bring back siege equipment in Siege you fuckers!!!
Bring it back and make it conquest only! WOO FOR FUN!
Also add balistas to the shit you can build already.
1/3 conquest blows.
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1/3 conquest blows.
Yep.
I say we just make 5 conquest maps that are structured like this.
2 cap points at a time with 11 cap points in total. The 11th being a single point. We then allow all siege to be used again.