cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: chaosegg on March 19, 2011, 05:38:57 am
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Help me (the player), and help you (whoever pays for the server).
In the current cRPG build we have a teamwork-oriented game; wonderfully balanced (relative to the old version),
with vastly reduced susceptibility to the old methods of game-ruining and griefing,
primarily due to the mutual benefit everyone gains as a team from working together and winning.
Bravo and kudos to all who contributed to make this change; it's wonderful!
Unfortunately it is not always enough, there are always people who like to 'mess around' in the wrong ways.
current situation on the server:
--rules say: dont hit your team intentionally, and don't leach; every round this happens anyways to some degree
--rules are officially enforced for about 30 minutes a day, on average, when an admin happens to be on,
or by after-the-fact story+screenshot forum threads.
--Players become frustrated by leachers and griefers (intentional team hitters) because it is costing them EXP/gold (TIME),
so either leave (and don't donate), or retaliate vigilante style.
All of this is nothing new, and would be no reason for me to start a thread, except it has come to my attention that now admins are occasionally telling people
"retaliating in any way is just as bad (bannable) as the original offender"
All fine and good, except 90% of the time there is no admin around to keep the server from descending into chaos,
and posting after-reports of offending players is something of a joke; even if the person is banned, how will they learn from their mistake?
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So when players try to regulate 'in the moment' (in-game vigilantesque), and are then later called out for it by admin(s), you can see how this might seem a bit hypocritical.
And nobody likes a hypocrite; certainly not the people of means to donate to the server; they'll just go play something that doesn't induce more rage into their lives [than they asked for].
I applaud recent admin presence on NA siege; Nindur, TS_ admins and whoever else... but it is just not quite enough sometimes.
Thanks for reading my rant and I'll axe you in game. :mrgreen:
P.S.
Can we get an updated sticky with info. about where to donate to NA servers?
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Help me (the player), and help you (whoever pays for the server).
In the current cRPG build we have a teamwork-oriented game; wonderfully balanced (relative to the old version),
with vastly reduced susceptibility to the old methods of game-ruining and griefing,
primarily due to the mutual benefit everyone gains as a team from working together and winning.
Bravo and kudos to all who contributed to make this change; it's wonderful!
Unfortunately it is not always enough, there are always people who like to 'mess around' in the wrong ways.
current situation on the server:
--rules say: dont hit your team intentionally, and don't leach; every round this happens anyways to some degree
--rules are officially enforced for about 30 minutes a day, on average, when an admin happens to be on,
or by after-the-fact story+screenshot forum threads.
--Players become frustrated by leachers and griefers (intentional team hitters) because it is costing them EXP/gold (TIME),
so either leave (and don't donate), or retaliate vigilante style.
All of this is nothing new, and would be no reason for me to start a thread, except it has come to my attention that now admins are occasionally telling people
"retaliating in any way is just as bad (bannable) as the original offender"
All fine and good, except 90% of the time there is no admin around to keep the server from descending into chaos,
and posting after-reports of offending players is something of a joke; even if the person is banned, how will they learn from their mistake?
____________________________________________________________
So when players try to regulate 'in the moment' (in-game vigilantesque), and are then later called out for it by admin(s), you can see how this might seem a bit hypocritical.
And nobody likes a hypocrite; certainly not the people of means to donate to the server; they'll just go play something that doesn't induce more rage into their lives [than they asked for].
I applaud recent admin presence on NA siege; Nindur, TS_ admins and whoever else... but it is just not quite enough sometimes.
Thanks for reading my rant and I'll axe you in game. :mrgreen:
P.S.
Can we get an updated sticky with info. about where to donate to NA servers?
You're right about alot, but admins are human and can only to react to what they see. SO if they see red text on the bottom left of their screen, then they issue a warning to the offender if it wasn't obviously a battle casualty. If someone types "hey this guy is team killing me", or "hey this guy is leeching" that helps your case alot more than going vigilante and facing concequences yourself. Admins like to play the game to have fun, not babysit the players! NA admins are not paid and are there when they can be. What an average player can do is
1. Try and locate an admin (either in the server or playing in a similar NA server)
2. Screenshot and post
I would say teamkilling in self defense is a last resort.
If you can't locate an admin immediately and do have steam, try and send me a message at doc_barber (that's the account name anyways, Duster is the name that I show up as), I'm on at odd hours of the day. It is the right of every player to play without having to worry about his experienced being spoiled by a determined griefer.
P.S. I'm not sure where a thread is (Nindur get on it man) but all donations sent to [email protected] go directly to keeping the 80 man, siege and strategus servers alive. We need 100 dollars a month, so any and all donations are appreciated.(I just recently donated my first 20$, feels good man!!)
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Been gone for a week but i patrol the siege server often and enforce the rules their very often. be back soon.
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You can add me on steam: Steam ID evanhowse
I spend several hours per day sitting in spec on the siege server, so you might not think there is an admin there but I'm creepin.....
And some of those numbers your putting up are just wrong.....30 minutes per day with an admin on......90% of the time theres no admin...
I'm literally on the server for 3 or more hours per day, and I make myself available to everyone through steam at anytime of the day.
So again, add me on steam @ evanhowse
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Nindur I don't think his estimation is off by much tbh. Maybe the difference is admins on siege that log in as admin? Or an admin that actually does some admin'n? I don't know but when I first came back to crpg I can tell you there was never an admin around when you needed one the most. People knew it too and went nuts alot of times. I did have this one ss i took 3 nights back of one guy with 4 tks. He was just attacking away no admin on. I deleted it once I learned that most admins attitude was I didn't see it so IDC. Or well i'll give him a warning. LOL I'd give him much more. So i figured why bother delete.
This is one of the reason I don't seige alot tbh. That and I feel it lowers my iq.
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If I'm on IRC, I'm normally available to jump in siege if needed.
Though I wouldn't normally play there, because I kind of hate it.
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Are you admins for the NA battle servers also? Because I will add you to steam and expect me to call. I play Battle during the afternoon on the west coast and I never see admins.
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You can add my steam as well, or just jump into the PxC channel and let me know that something is going on in a server that needs taking care of.
Steam: Vap0rWare (that's a zero)
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Necromancy, because this is a problem still/again.
Things are generally out of hand and griefers abound. (especially on weekends, yes I am rageposting on a Saturday night luls)
Grief causes stress, stress is physically harmful to people.
The game itself causes enough stress as it is.
Hailp me NA server Gods; you're my only hope!
There are just not enough admins who actually regularly play on the NA siege server.
More admins would help.
Voting being on more often would help.
As it is, an admin will join and (rarely) enable voting, but more often they disable it then don't turn it back on after they quit.
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There are plenty of admins that regular the siege server for multiple hours a day. In regards to team-killing anyone who plays siege(especially admins) know how hard it is to discern intentional team damage from just plain old siege craziness. You claim admins are only on the siege server for 30 minutes a day. That is clearly not true. If you want to report an issue, and have it dealt with use the "I" chat to report it to an admin. It also helps to state which team YOU and the OFFENDER are on. Otherwise admins end up having to hold tab to figure out if the complaint is just general whining or legitimate. I'm not saying siege isn't chaotic, because it is. However it's not due to lack of admins or admins not doing their job. The best way to keep the server in order is to not provoke things in chat, and to report things to admins in a clear way. Then be patient as the admin works out the problem.
TL;DR: Admins work plenty hard enough to try to keep order on the siege so everyone can have a fun time, but part of that order relies on the players being cooperative.
EDIT: And as for voting. I leave it on when I leave, but it's abused so much that I end up having to come in and turn it off. Community needs to be more mature about using the polling system or at least discuss in chat whether or not a person deserves a poll before the poll...polls for polls. Interesting idea in my opinion.
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I play, often on siege, either on Malaclypse or one of my many alts, typically between the hours of 12am-5am CST, and there are rarely if ever admins on during that duration, it feels like.
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I typically tend to be on until at least 1am PST. These are NA servers having admins on that late is kind of unrealistic. People have lives, and usually there is only a small number of people on past the time I leave.
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NA Siege almost never goes below 20-30 players at any time, on any day of the week.
I'm not asking the current admins to be on more- I'm asking (begging really) for a realistic solution to the problem,
which is that the server pretty much needs an admin on all the time.
Edit: or kick/tempban voting needs to be enabled.
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I don't believe you read my post. Polls are almost always on. They almost cause more problems than they are worth though. I agree the siege server pretty much needs an admin on, but that's only due to the lack of maturity. Dealing with people can be quite frustrating at sometimes. Since you end up saying "Please do not intentionally team-wound/kill - or leech" about 15 times a day. That's what comes with the job though. If admins were just to kick someone every time they got a complaint about the person the siege server wouldn't be that fun. It's up to the server admins to decide whether or not we actually need more admins to control people or not. From my perspective I think we do a fine job at keeping the peace though.
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I totally agree with the OP.
Then when someone goes vigilante style to calm those griefer that "griefer" take the opportunity to turn shit to his advantage and its the legit player that end up suffering from his bullshit.
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People have lives, and usually there is only a small number of people on past the time I leave.
Siege is basically (typically), the only NA server with any population between 1am-5am (cst), and being that my shifts end late night/early morning, it's where you'll find me after werkz.
From my perspective I think we do a fine job at keeping the peace though.
Quite right. When there are admins on there are virtually no sustained issues. If I had any idea how administration worked from a technical aspect I'd offer to fill the late night void myself, but maybe it's better to have a little lawlessness in that time slot.
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For what it's worth, a lot of the TKing/teamwounding and leech report spamming recently has been from LLJK guys. They've been actively encouraging each other to spam leech reports in siege on their own forums to gain multipliers, only starting to back down on this when it obviously started to create a backlash. Seems to me like this would be a pretty easy problem to fix.
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I encouraged reporting leechers because whenever i play siege there is 3 attackers afking at their spawn, and at least two naked defenders afking or standing around being worthless. I report shit to admins if they are on, but half the time they aren't. I will continue to use a feature to report leechers.
Even if the multiplier bonus was taken out, i would report people.
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Is this the part where the goons flood in and play the victim while nobody believes them?
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I encouraged reporting leechers because whenever i play siege there is 3 attackers afking at their spawn, and at least two naked defenders afking or standing around being worthless. I report shit to admins if they are on, but half the time they aren't. I will continue to use a feature to report leechers.
Even if the multiplier bonus was taken out, i would report people.
I agree completely. I almost always report people after they've been still 20+ seconds. They also have the 30 second leech timer. That's 50+ seconds, or roughly 14%+ of the round they aren't contributing to the assault or defense. If you've got the leave the keyboard drop to spectator, the rules of the server clearly state it.
Leeching is a pandemic among the player base and admins will enforce it with a varying degree of severity, while admins are encouraged to check to see if immobile or unresponsive players are afk, it is not outside their authority to kick anyone who looks to be afk. Players complain that they may be called away by the doorbell or the telephone, that is your own responsibility and is not an acceptable response, if you have to leave your computer, join the spectator team, then rejoin a team when you return - your multiplier will be restored back to you if your team wins the next round. A broader definition of what is considered leeching may be required: The act of leeching is when a player spawns with no intention to make a constant effort to help his team win. The point being, if you actively engage the enemy during the map you can never be brandished as a leecher.
Half the people I accuse of leeching come back and bitch that they had to send a text or go take a dump. The other half are actually booted for leeching. It's right there in the rules of the server that you're leeching, and I am rightfully accusing you of such.
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Also:
Best fix:
The leecher doesn't see the leech nomination, and instead of pressing 'm' the timer is disabled by taking any action at all.
That way you can't annoy people by spamming it, and people who are actually there are unaffected by it. Only true leechers would get kicked.
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As long as it's Damug and Gaga, we can hear what they say with a straight face. I know Damug uses the feature fine, but most of LLJK doesn't. biggayviking (allegedly) used it in spite on someone that irritated him yesterday after a bunch of the goons got riled up.
Sorry to any other LLJK guys that aren't primarily concerned with trolling and are unfairly generalized.
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I like the report leecher function. However I think people need to use it differently. For example admins obviously can't really see what is going on on the enemy team that well. Especially if you're actually trying to play, and end up being an attacker.
What I would suggest (I already ask people to do this) is if you suspect a leecher send admins a message with their name, and what team they are on. That gives us a chance to warn them in admin chat to confirm that they are leeching. If they don't respond within a reasonable amount of time then the player who spotted the player gets to report them.
I believe this gives everyone a chance to have fun, and stops players from staring at AFK people for 20 seconds before reporting them. Hunting leechers is good and all, but not if you end up "leeching" yourself just to confirm people are actually doing so.
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Half the people I accuse of leeching come back and bitch that they had to send a text or go take a dump. The other half are actually booted for leeching. It's right there in the rules of the server that you're leeching, and I am rightfully accusing you of such.
Half the people you spam leech reports on come back instantly, because they looked away from their screen for 2 seconds or stretched their legs after a good round for 5 seconds. You're trying to use the letter of the law to violate the spirit of the law. People are playing this to have fun, and it doesn't matter if someone goes AFK for a couple of seconds. Siege mode is setup to be fairly unrelenting in terms of action, and focusing 99% of your attention on the game versus 100% of your attention on the game makes no difference on the quality of the server, but when that one glance away gets an LLJK guy spamming leech reports on you, it seriously interferes with game enjoyment. This, of course, is pretty much the goal of a lot of the LLJK guys.
Frankly, I think half of the appeal of leech reporting to these trolls is that they can do it anonymously. If they went around spamming ban requests, everyone would immediately see what they were up to and there would be an even bigger backlash. As it stands, I'd wager that anyone that plays siege consistently has been targeted by frivolous leech reports, many from LLJK guys.
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I like the report leecher function. However I think people need to use it differently. For example admins obviously can't really see what is going on on the enemy team that well. Especially if you're actually trying to play, and end up being an attacker. What I would suggest (I already ask people to do this) is if you suspect a leecher send admins a message with their name, and what team they are on. That gives us a chance to warn them in admin chat to confirm that they are leeching. If they don't respond within a reasonable amount of time then the player who spotted the player gets to report them. I believe this gives everyone a chance to have fun, and stops players from starring at AFK people for 20 seconds before reporting them. Hunting leechers is good and all, but not if you end up "leeching" yourself just to confirm people are actually doing so.
Why add needless steps resembling an inefficient bureaucracy to a simple system. All you have to do is press 'm'. It's easy enough to disable the timer and anyone actually playing should never be kicked for it between the long timer and your whole screen being filled with the 'you're leeching' message as it is currently implemented. Really, anyone who complains about being accused a leecher outside of actually being engaged with an enemy (in which case that was a malicious move on the part of the accuser to grief and should be handled appropriately) is just being a whiny baby.
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Half the people you spam leech reports on come back instantly, because they looked away from their screen for 2 seconds or stretched their legs after a good round for 5 seconds. You're trying to use the letter of the law to violate the spirit of the law. People are playing this to have fun, and it doesn't matter if someone goes AFK for a couple of seconds.
Then press 'm' and move on with playing the game. No harm was done, you looked afk, you were reported, you weren't, so nothing happens to you.
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Then press 'm' and move on with playing the game. No harm was done, you looked afk, you were reported, you weren't, so nothing happens to you.
When "looked afk" equals "paused in running to type a message" or "stopped moving for 2 seconds to scratch your nose" there's clearly a problem with the judgment of the person doing the reporting. Another potential solution to this problem would be something like automatic temp bans for anyone with a high enough fail rate on their leech reports, or removing multiplier for every failed leech report.
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30 seconds is a long time to prove that you are not AFK, but siege chat scrolls by extremely fast. So if you look away for more than 10 seconds there is a chance you will not see the red messages. I don't think it's a needless step in the process of kicking leechers. It simply stops players from thinking they are admins, and should go scouting around for leechers rather than play the game.
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30 seconds is a long time to prove that you are not AFK, but siege chat scrolls by extremely fast. So if you look away for more than 10 seconds there is a chance you will not see the red messages. I don't think it's a needless step in the process of kicking leechers. It simply stops players from thinking they are admins, and should go scouting around for leechers rather than play the game.
When I look away, the first thing I do when I look back is press 'm'. Donno, it's a good habit to have I suppose. Generally if I have to direct my attention elsewhere for an extended period of time I'll just drop to spectator for a minute or two (or more) then come back and join the fight.
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When I look away, the first thing I do when I look back is press 'm'. Donno, it's a good habit to have I suppose. Generally if I have to direct my attention elsewhere for an extended period of time I'll just drop to spectator for a minute or two (or more) then come back and join the fight.
That's exactly what people should be doing. If you're going to go afk even for a minute you should join spectators. It's not like you even lose your multiplier. Also pressing M every now, and then isn't a bad idea either. I will admit I turn around to watch a play in a sports game for about 10 seconds, but then I quickly refocus on the battle.
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This kept happening to me while engaged in fighting today. Having gigantic red letters block the left half of you screen while you are fighting is pretty bad. The movement keys should be what is used to get rid of the timer and clear your screen (maybe spam some 1 letter lines). The 'M' key is rather rough to hit with your left hand fighting using an ergonomics keyboard. I have no idea why you can do this to the opposite team.
Back to the OP the admins did end up handling it though.
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That system should be reworked and tweaked.
Here is my ideas:
1- The time reset as soon as your character move.
2- Remove the multiplier bonus (that will stop the griefing) ---> Also keep in mind the actual system can lead to stat padding and exploit by clan members that can boost their friends multiplier by nominating a friend constantly and increasing their multiplier.
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2- Remove the multiplier bonus (that will stop the griefing) ---> Also keep in mind the actual system can lead to stat padding and exploit by clan members that can boost their friends multiplier by nominating a friend constantly and increasing their multiplier.
I agree on this. The leecher function should only be used in a last resort if an admin is not on or is too busy to kick the player. It shouldn't give you a reward.
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Someone has nominated me as a leacher on more than one occassion. One guy earlier watched me for at least a couple minutes while I jumped around at the flag in a seige, then all the sudden he declared I was a leacher. Not sure if some of these people find it amuzing, but there was no cause for it to have happened at any time.
Anyone that has played with me knows I am actively involved and looking to have fun playing!
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+1 for OP. great summary of the state of the server.
the threshold for banning needs to be quite a bit lower. The amount of effort someone has to put in to get someone gone for a week or something it just isnt worth it, so they'll take matters into their own hands. Admins are much to lenient on repeat offenders and known asshats.
Server needs a script that as soon as the last admin leaves, polls are re-enabled and if someone is kicked they CANNOT rejoin instantly.
When you disable polls and your polls have no power to begin with, vigilante justice is the only means to defend yourself and your team.
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I'm extremely disappoint that people really aren't reading my posts.
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The points I would like to currently make clear in this thread are:
1. that to me, who plays there a lot (just like Mala, DrD, Veiux, LLJK blob, Digglez, Kabookie an the others I frequently love/kill/see)
it seems like the people currently with admin on NA Siege don't actually play there very often
(which is totally not their fault, and I am not attacking anyone- I'm just trying to help efficiently solve the problem;
starting with making people aware it is a problem that needs solving if they want the most populous NA server to be run in a manner that good, honest players, who are the majority, will want to play in and/or donate to).
And
2. that there needs to be an admin on, or voting on all the time.
The reason we need an admin or voting ALL THE TIME, is that we're not dealing with normal people in NA Siege/CRPG/Warband;
we're dealing with unreasonable kids who have almost zero accountability over the internet.
If they can get away with it, they will.
Yes, I play a lot, which means I see a lot more bullshit (and cry more), but I also see more of what is really going on overall.
Being on a lot I see the same names, doing the same douchey rule break/bending every time they are on the server.
It's not that many people- I should make a physical list to add to my mental one really-
but even if the server has only 30-40 people, there is often one person bringing everyone else down with them;
and one is all it takes to change the atmosphere, mood and attitude of everyone around them.
Let's get proper gameplay flowing again; the leecher reporting troll feature has disrupted it enough as it is.
Thank you for stopping by, and good night.
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I, and many other admins I know are on the siege server for multiple hours a day. As nindurr said we're not paid to admin the server. We do it because we want to help the community, and make sure people are having fun. Having an admin on 24/7 is unrealistic. Especially for really late night/early morning hours.
Again I will say voting is abused constantly mostly because people don't read the god damn rules to know the guidelines for even using the polls. So it ends up causing lots of problems.
I know that it only takes one person to send the server into chaos. I've dealt with those sort of situations first hand, but as for getting more admins it's easier said than done. Not a lot of people are willing or mature enough to do it. All of the admins who regular the siege server devote a lot of their time to do so. I feel as if our work is going unappreciated here. Take more notice of the good rather than only posting of the bad.
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While PMing with Chaosegg I wrote this up. I believe it's a good addition to this thread.
It's kind of hard to determine what deserves a kick/ban, and what doesn't. You have to take time out to join spectators(which I do) after clearing up 1: who the player is 2: what team he is on 3: what is he doing, and to whom.
You don't jump to conclusions unless of course he is spamming tks or something. Players deserve a right to be judged by an admin/peers before being punished. However the main problem is that the peers don't know the rules either. Or are waaaayyyyy too hasty on the poll.
It needs to be discussed - Like is this person also breaking the rules that you've noticed? I try hard anytime I am in the server to make sure people are playing in a way that they aren't ruining other people's play. What you can do as a player is to remind people of these sort of things. It will help relieve some of the need to even have an admin on.
Just to have the players that aren't idiots to let each other know how it should be done. If I'm not in game you can probably reach me on IRC under the name Geon. All in all rather than recruiting more admins (which is hard) the player-base who is serious about the game needs to take up different tactics on dealing with trouble makers.
Please enjoy my lazy formatting.
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I think all the NA Siege admins come on around the same time which is the main problem. I try to jump on when I'm free and clean up the server but when things get busy its hard to make time. We probably do need a eu type admin who can play from 4am-noon cst since thats the most abused timeslot. I agree the ban threashold should be lowered and I usually start with temp ban for tking and spawn teamwounders. I'd recommend the other admins do the same. If they come back go straight to perm ban and let the forums sort it out. Theres very little excuse for spawn teamwounding or teamkilling.
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I have proposed a new system of Admin for the NA servers to the other head admins, I anticipate that it will be accepted by all of them.......expect to see some changes soon!
Also, moderators we have 3 THreads dealing with the same issue running right now, you should close at least 2 of them!