cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: TomMyyY on March 15, 2011, 04:57:15 pm
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I think it's quite obvious that the present retirement system doesn't really work the way it's supposed to work.
If I remember correctly chadz wanted to make heirlooms special and retirement hard to achieve, but now as people
get to higher generations quicker and quicker (because of the exponential factor: higher gen = easier retirement = even higher gen faster)
it's just a matter of time before there will be lots of people with rediculous generations (I have heard 'people' are 50+ already).
Though it's sitll a massive grind for new players to get a heirloom or two, which just seems unfair and boring for new players.
So my suggestion: new retirement system.
All the numbers used are just examples, I have no idea what the actual numbers should be balance wise.
I would suggest a retirement system based on some kind of points (can be coins, age or whatever, that's not important right now).
Where every day you would be able to collect a few points by winning rounds. Let's say you have a 5% chance to get a point if you
win a round, but after that you only have a 4% chance to get another one and so on up to a point where it's almost (or totally) impossible to get more points.
This would then reset every 24 hours making it achievable for everyone to get a few points a day, but for people who really want to grind it would be
possible to get a few more. Just set a goal at which you can retire and you're done, I think this would be a nice compromise between the boring 1-week wait
we had pre-patch, and the system we have right now that just isn't working the way it's intended.
In addition to this you could make it so that the amount of points you have to gather to retire increases after every retirement.
So it would require 25 points to retire the first time, then 30, 35 and so on. This way it becomes harder to retire each time, but you can still keep the same
experience bonusses, because it won't spiral out of control now.
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This system would be better for new players but it doesn't help with the current situation we have right now, that is, too many high generation players (myself included, Gen 16 soon 17). I think adding a "limit" would be the easiest way to fix retirement as people keep progressing constantly and new players (or players who have not retired that much) are unable to catch up with them.
My own idea about retirement would be: a hard cap of generation 10 (3 "Masterwork" items) and thus limiting the bonus EXP to 90%. As many people already have passed this limit they should be allowed to repick their heirlooms (and thus lowering their generation) but removing any extra ones, this would reduce the amount of heirlooms and encourages trading as you are unable to stack infinite heirlooms with enough time. With a hard cap new players will eventually be able to catch up and not be stuck with a lower generation for always.
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But then the only thing left to do would be the grind towards those almost unachievable levels above 31, I think it would
be fun to have something to do other then leveling up extremely slowly.
People need some kind of achievable grind, that is what Crpg has always been about (partially of course, there are lots of other great features).
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Some players are out of control.....but I think instead of limiting their ability to achieve ommipotence could we:
Include siege KDR and performance in character history.
Have an autobalance that takes into account generation, KDR, general performace (wins, losses, teamkills, etc) and then balance accordingly.
I love watching those 5 or 6 guys stood in the village square, as 20-30 lesser mortals come crashing towards them, confident that this is nothing they have not seen before and survived....
And the last champion, 17th of his families line of epic heroes, atop a pile of his enemies that await him in the next life (dead chat), going down under the many assorted blades of the peasant masses....
So, in short, allow the pwnage, but ballance the matches for it, with either very superior numbers, or others of such calliber, opposing the supaheroes, and maybe disable the clanflag stacking if that still works, seems bad idea.....balance wise....
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Some players are out of control.....but I think instead of limiting their ability to achieve ommipotence could we:
Include siege KDR and performance in character history.
Have an autobalance that takes into account generation, KDR, general performace (wins, losses, teamkills, etc) and then balance accordingly.
I love watching those 5 or 6 guys stood in the village square, as 20-30 lesser mortals come crashing towards them, confident that this is nothing they have not seen before and survived....
And the last champion, 17th of his families line of epic heroes, atop a pile of his enemies that await him in the next life (dead chat), going down under the many assorted blades of the peasant masses....
So, in short, allow the pwnage, but ballance the matches for it, with either very superior numbers, or others of such calliber, opposing the supaheroes, and maybe disable the clanflag stacking if that still works, seems bad idea.....balance wise....
What exactly does this have to do with this topic?
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What exactly does this have to do with this topic?
Alternative to limiting retirements, or capping them.
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No i like that retire system what is now.
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@Grey As far as i can see you've suggested a new team balancing system as a solution to people attaining stupidly high generations (we're talking retire 3 times in 5 day kinda people). I don't think thats a viable option and sounds more like a denial of a problem rather than an alternative solution.
Discussion on this problem is needed. chadz, I believe has admitted himself that the new retirement system is not what he wanted, and has if anything made the problems that were shown with the old system worse.
This suggested system would handicap the ability of people to grind and grind to generations 20+ which gives them exactly the same advantage over players that having a high level such as 40+ did pre patch.
Everyone understands that Grinding will happen, its inevitable in any form of competitive game play based on persistent level based characters. However a system that prevents people from gaining stupid advantages over others while allowing new players to achieve easily is desirable.
This system suggested may not be perfect but it is a solution.
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It could be good if after getting to gen 10 when you retired afterwards you get an option to move 1 heirloom level to another weapon/armor so that people can still retire if they want to change what they already heirloomed.
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A retirement cap or recurring exponential gold costs past generation 10 would fix it easily enough.
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I dont think that retiring has to be limited as there is already a natural obstacle which prevents "heirloom abuse". You can equip yourself with just one helm, one armour, one horse and so on. Weapon slots are limited.
Of course somebody who has a fully heirloomed char will be quite dangerous, but I also think, that such players can easily be killed by a bunch of skilled players. If 2-3 Players work together not even a best euipped pro has much of a chance.
But what needs change is the massive grind in the beginning. I am generatio 2 only and the game starts to turn me off. It becomes boring and there is nothing achieveable with skillful playing. Only waiting and waiting and grinding and grinding.
The worst part of the mod is the XP-System which is the greatest bullshit I have ever seen in a game :P
At least starting Xp should be increased MASSIVE(at least 1500 per tick)
You have to consider that you have to play ~70hours for your first Char. That is MUCH MORE time you have to spend on normal PC games to see all of its regular parts.
I am saying this though I am an excessive player who spents many hours a day! But this is just ridiculous. I start to believe that chadz is not a good game designer...
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i to have noted a need for a change in the system. I joined just before the patch and as such had not retired pre patch. However i am currently at lvl 30 and have been for some time and its only now maybe a month after i achieved lvl 30 that i have had the want or need to grind to lvl 31 and i still have 2mill to go. I know that is slightly down to my own attitude and im sure many new players would of grinded a bit longer than me however i am sure had i not joined templars i would not be playing more purely because of the grind i have to do. i don't see the current system as flawed completely however the amount a newbie has to grind on first gen just is too much and will turn off players. I like your suggestion tommy and maybe with the addition of maybe extras you could by with theese coins maybe special weapons or at a push attribute/ skill points i belive the game can field a much more diverse player base
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A retirement cap or recurring exponential gold costs past generation 10 would fix it easily enough.
A retirement cap sounds so boring, retiring is what keeps a lot of people playing now. Wouldn't it be nice to just make it harder and maybe more rewarding?
Edit: It gets harder over time I mean, it shouldn't be too much of a grind the first few times.
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Just limit max exp gain per tick, maybe 10000(x5 11 gen), so even if u have, for example, gen 17 u will get 2600 at x1, 5200 at x2, 7800 at x3 and 10000 for x4 and x5, not more. Ppl would still be able to heilroom items and get a little anvantage at low multi...
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If I remember correctly chadz wanted to make heirlooms special
What chadz said was to many hierlooms were floating about. This is because there was an exploit about for almost 2 months when he first made the retirement system where you could get an hierloom for 5k gold and about 4-5 hours of playing a char.
I beleive that being abused by a good number of people lead him to do the whipe but maybe I am wrong. I really can't get into Chad'z head at all.
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But then the only thing left to do would be the grind towards those almost unachievable levels above 31, I think it would
be fun to have something to do other then leveling up extremely slowly.
People need some kind of achievable grind, that is what Crpg has always been about (partially of course, there are lots of other great features).
I totally agree with you I don't understand what people don't get about earning things. Maybe it's just all the EU users that post in support of getting something for nothing. I have 1200 hours of game play in this game and I think only about 200 of those hours are from Native or singal player. Why should someone that played for say 350 hours be on the same lvl as me?
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It encourages the player base to grow, and the more players, the more donations and the quicker the mod is developed.
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I've already posted this but:
gen1: +50%xp
gen2: +30%xp
gen 3:+10%xp
gen4: 0%xp
gen5: -5%xp
gen6:-10%xp
gen7:-15%XP
-Make the game newplayer friendly
-A fully heirloomed char would really be an achievement
-Encourage the creation of altrenative character for the xp bonus at first gen, people will try new class without the feeling of loosing all their advantage of very high gen.
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I'm fine with your idea brutal, IF I can then get to redistribute all my heirlooms and I mean all. So I get 12 heirlooms, otherwise your system will destroy main characters from many people because they can't anymore get enough xp to lvl up in reasonable time. Alltough have to ask, why so many people hate so much people who spend time to play this mod? I have spent many hours to get to this point trying many various builds and items, and now people want that all that was pointless change the game because you have played too much?
Just asking.
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Me and tommy are both gen 11+ this will affect us as much as others so please dont consider this a personal attack on high gens
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Tommys idea was good, I was just referring to the brutal's idea what he seems to offer in many threads what just seems horrible to me.
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Brutals suggestiin simply punishes people who retire. A negative xp bonus is frankly a stupid idea.
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If this is implemented, there should be a gen wipe (you keep your heirlooms but everyone starts over from gen1). This should have been done when the new patch came and we wouldn't have had gen30 people around.
Or if the current XP system is kept at least put a max xp/tick cap, the current system is ridiculous, for example at gen11 (that's not so hard to reach after all) you already get x2 xp at x1, so you will do 1-31 in the same time a gen1 player does 1-30.
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I think the negetive xp bonus is not very friendly to people who have been playing for long periods of time. I wouldnt want to retire after level 5 or six if I knew it was going to take me 5 times as long just to get from 1 to 30 again.
Not to mention that by giving out negetive xp, you will effectively soft cap the retirement levels. there will be a reachable point at which you will no longer be able to level up at all. It isnt supposed to be harder for succesive generations to be able to actually use the hierlooms daddy gave me, if you know what I mean.
I, personally, look forward to retireing a few more times so that the peasant grind will get shorter and shorter. Not longer each time.
Instead of killing our current bonuses, just re-implement the time limit on the retirement feature. Say, five to seven days per.
High levels can still get back up to 30 in a day, and it will encourage them to level up more alts while they wait for the ticker for retirement.
You shouldnt be punished for putting time into playing the game, as the negetive bonus reflects.
Just even the playing field, dont punish the players.
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Well yes what i propose is just plain horrible for higher gen I'm not denying it, but if we always give bonus to higher gen the gap between veterans and newby will just increase further and further over time. It's mathematical.
What i propose however, enable you to quicly have heirloom on a secondary character. So it gives an incentive to try new class unlike the current system.
I think it's like most thing IRL their is no perfect or correct solution, some people will have to suffer :mrgreen:
chadz will decide who.
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Negative xp is just a plain stupid idea, if you want to make ppl stop playing you should implement that.
With my idea you would still get your xp bonusses, but it would get harder and harder to retire every time.
So easier retirement for new player, but no disadvantages for higher generations (xp-wise).
There will always be a gap between new players and veterans, that's just the way this mod works and that's fine, but this would make things easier for new guys.
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What is the real gap between players anyway?
The skill difference of the player is a lot more important than gear, it just get's dangerous when a skilled person has badass gear.
Personally I don't mind people being gen 50+ in they want to. They had some time to spare obviously and deserve to have an edge.
I do like Tommy's idea though. Would make it easier for noobies to retire.
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With my idea you would still get your xp bonusses, but it would get harder and harder to retire every time.
Yes, this would be great. And the retirement would still be something to look forward to on the higher gen while still making the grind easier. There just needs to be a better way to implement it.
No one wants to spend a long time as a peasant. But I pretty much consider the first gen retirement a right of passage. That initial grind taught me quite a lot about the specifics of cRPG as a whole. So each generation being able to do it faster is a great incentive. the only problem comes with the retirement process itself. Just hitting 31 isnt good enough. each generation, or every third generation, should add another tier of requirements to the process.
ideas?
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I think you have to focus more about numbers than the concept here. How often do we want casual players to be able to retire and obtain an heirloom? Once a week? Twice a week? There's a lot of talk in this thread about making it easier for casual players or for new players. Are we saying easier compared to what it is now or easier than someone who is gen 30? There are quite a few ways to make retiring easier/harder but what's most difficult is deciding how long it should take or how easy it should be.
I'd like to see a poll so we can get an idea for how many hours played people think it should take a gen 1 character to retire(not to be confused with reach x level). Then see another poll asking the same question for a generation 15 character.
Then, after having the numbers to put us into perspective, build a system that allows us to achieve these numbers.
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+1 to Tommy's idea
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Just as level 31 and beyond is exponential, make level 31 exponential by the current generation number.
This way high gen people still get a good bonus because they can level up to 30 quickly. But if they want more heirlooms it is like trying to get to 32 then 33 ect. Obviously this is a bit harsh so maybe it should wait until they have the hierloom trading in.
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Just as level 31 and beyond is exponential, make level 31 exponential by the current generation number.
This way high gen people still get a good bonus because they can level up to 30 quickly. But if they want more heirlooms it is like trying to get to 32 then 33 ect. Obviously this is a bit harsh so maybe it should wait until they have the hierloom trading in.
Thats actually not too bad.
make it so that every generation, the amount of xp needed to hit 31 is proportional to the xp bonus.
So basically, every generation has the exact same grind from 30-31 time wise, but higher generations can get to 30 much faster.
that is pretty much problem solved, in terms of heirloomed grinding.
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I say make it where you stop getting XP bonuses after level 11 (Capped at 2000 xp per tick, or 10,000 on a x5 multiplier).
However, make it where every time you retire past that point, you start getting something special that is useable only in strategus, some kind of new skill perhaps? Or some kind of bonus maybe, like being able to see farther on the strategus map etc. Special "Strategus Points."
This way there is incentive to keep retiring, but there is no longer a huge disparity for XP gains.
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I think a simple 100% xp bonus at generation 1 and a 100% limit after generation 10 would be a good system.
And like others have already said; this would be more inviting for new players (and alternative characters) and the more players the better.
Bonus experience by generation:
1: 100% (to make it easier for new players)
2: 20%
3: 30%
4: 40%
5: 50%
6: 60%
7: 70%
8: 80%
9: 90%
10+: 100% (to give veterans some kind of reward)
If you want to get past level 31 or just want to restat your main character after gen 10 this 100% bonus seems fair to me.
Even though it will not make any difference if you are generation 10 or 100 I see no reason to set a limit to it. People like stats and those who have high generations have fought for it.
Let them have that number. I'm sure there are ways to make some practical use of it later on. Maybe just a badge in game or something.
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+1 to Tommy's idea
this :)
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Seems to me most people are forgetting that pre-patch you had to accumulate quite a big amount of money to retire AND wait one week, yet there were loads of high levels and/or high gens. If there is no wipe, there will always be people whining about long time players (this coming from a gen 7, soon to be gen 8, 3 retiremens in old system just money + time, 3 retiremens from lvl 31), and i actually felt it was harder to retire pre-patch, as money were quite hard to come around.
If you play this game for much longer than anyone else, you should have an edge. If you think not, go back to native, period.
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My own idea about retirement would be: a hard cap of generation 10 (3 "Masterwork" items) and thus limiting the bonus EXP to 90%. As many people already have passed this limit they should be allowed to repick their heirlooms (and thus lowering their generation) but removing any extra ones, this would reduce the amount of heirlooms and encourages trading as you are unable to stack infinite heirlooms with enough time. With a hard cap new players will eventually be able to catch up and not be stuck with a lower generation for always.
Good idea !
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-1 to Tommy's idea, too much RNG (the luckiest ones could retire even before reaching 30 or 31?).
Instead we could just use a system with xp decrement (that doesn't go below zero).
Gen1: 100% xp modifier
Gen2: 80% xp modifier
Gen3: 60% xp modifier
Gen4: 40% xp modifier
Gen5: 20% xp modifier
Gen6: 0% xp modifier
Gen7: 0% xp modifier
Gen8: 0% xp modifier
Up to lets say Gen 10 or 15, from where the xp from 30 to 31 increases.
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It seems to me that with the removal of the wpf bonus for retiring, the advantages gained from high generations are not so significant as to be game breaking. Even a gen 50 character takes around 200 hours of gameplay to reach level 35, and a difference of 5 skill and attribute points between them and the standard level 30 is not unfair considering the huge amount of time put in. As for heirlooms, well they are nice to have, but they are never going to turn bad players into good, or make average players great, and so giving them out for retirement is not such a big deal.
It would be nice though if everyone's total xp gained since the big patch could be adjusted as though they had started on generation one, if necessary removing generations and heirlooms in the process. But that would be difficult to pull off without logs of what xp people retired at and when, and that information probably isn't saved anywhere.
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I dont like this idea, sorry.
Retirement is ok to me as it is
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Thread too long, did not read. Solved it for you:
Current:
XPGain = BaseXP * (1+GEN/100)
New:
XPGain = BaseXP * (1-GEN/25)
So instead of current +1%xp/gen, effect would be -4%/gen. Retirement grinding is still possible but gets progressively harder, not easier. Max gen would be 25, as gaining XP after that would not be possible.
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Thread too long, did not read. Solved it for you:
Current:
XPGain = BaseXP * (1+GEN/100)
New:
XPGain = BaseXP * (1-GEN/25)
So instead of current +1%xp/gen, effect would be -4%/gen. Retirement grinding is still possible but gets progressively harder, not easier. Max gen would be 25, as gaining XP after that would not be possible.
What will happen to current high generation players? Most high generation players were generation 10 or higher pre patch and as our heirlooms were stolen we are higher generation than someone who retired only after the patch.
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I wouldnt mind a heirloom cap. Like you can either heirloom one weapon 3 times or one weapon 2 times and another 1 time or 3 different ones 1 time. Same goes for armour. So in the end you can have 6 different heirlooms or 2 very good ones or a mix. I don't know what to do about xp bonus either. Someone will allways have the time to ultra grind anyway. Unless there is a cap that is similar for everyone.
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What will happen to current high generation players? Most high generation players were generation 10 or higher pre patch and as our heirlooms were stolen we are higher generation than someone who retired only after the patch.
Set character generation to be equal to number of heirlooms. This way those who are high gen with low heirloom count due to theft are not handicapped more severely than post-patch retirement grinders.
If someone actually is over gen 25 (counting heirlooms), then reduce that player to gen 25, give him 25 heirloom points and allow full heirloom respec for compensation. There can't be many of these anyway, just a few guys.
(Note that I have no control over this matter, just discussing like everyone else.)
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Set character generation to be equal to number of heirlooms. This way those who are high gen with low heirloom count due to theft are not handicapped more severely than post-patch retirement grinders.
If someone actually is over gen 25 (counting heirlooms), then reduce that player to gen 25, give him 25 heirloom points and allow full heirloom respec for compensation. There can't be many of these anyway, just a few guys.
(Note that I have no control over this matter, just discussing like everyone else.)
I'd prefer to make heirlooms even more rare than limiting gen xp bonus. 25 heirloom points is just ridiculous anyway who would need that. Hell Infact I wouldnt mind limiting people too 1 heirloom per character. Pick your poison and stick with it.
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Reintroducing a progressive XP curve where the retirement bonus has removed it (i.e. the next step of progression should always be harder to reach) is consistent for a RPG. However, since the game is based on restarting your character, I think hindering the XP collection is not a good idea.
The progressive difficulty should be in earning heirloomed items. Also, heirlooming one item to +2 should be longer than heirlooming two items to +1. Likewise, heirlooming to +3 should be much harder than heirlooming three items to +1... So masterwork weapons would be really uncommon.
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Keep the system how it is, but make people pay consecutively more for heirlooms past gen10 (and nothing for the heirlooms before that). Maybe make it easier to retire to gen10, but whatever, the heirlooms are free to that point. 9 looms is a perfect number for free; you either do a couple of different weapons you like, a weapon and some armor, etc.
If players can then trade heirlooms or purchase them from each other for gold, high gen, retire all day errday players like myself can hock their old, boring heirlooms to pay for their new ones. This also works to the advantage of the gen1 forever crowd, who likely has much gold in reserve to purchase heirloomed items. This would introduce an interesting player economy for heirloomed items. Furthermore, retirement options for those above gen 10 could be,
retire with nothing (level 15)
retire for a xp bonus (31)
retire for an xp bonus and heirloom (31, some increasing amount of gold for every heirloom past the first 9)
The whole fun of having a stupid xp bonus is being able to rock out a new build for a while, getting to 31 and then trying something new. The current post 30 curve pretty much stops people from getting past 35, so it's not like kesh is going to make it back to level 50 and troll the world with 13 athletics and 500 effective wpf.
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Kesh will just reach gen 100 and then grind and grind till the end cometh!