cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: RiPLeY_II on April 07, 2012, 09:40:16 pm
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Infantry gets bump damage and recover time from even failed charges of cav, so it's fair that in a "common sense" point of view, cav get damage from a fall when their horse is killed, having a speed bonus for the damage they receive. Usually when a cavman have his horse killd by infantry at top speed, they fall so far away that sometimes you can't hit them even if you killed the horse, so you have to kill the horse, then kill a soldier at FULL HEALTH again.
And as I said, it's just common sense, there's no way a cavman could get no damage from such a fall...
Please state your class as you vote, just to see which classes favour and don't favour the change.
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I've jumped off a cliff and died with my horse on falls high enough. I believe it does exist but I think it has to be from pretty high up. I do agree though. If horse takes a 20% damage the rider should too.
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I've jumped off a cliff and died with my horse on falls high enough. I believe it does exist but I think it has to be from pretty high up. I do agree though. If horse takes a 20% damage the rider should too.
I'm not meaning that damage, but the damage a rider receives from falling from his horse, when the last is killed, even more when it is at a high speed. The horse gets kiiled, the rider falls, and the rider, in the actual situation, never gets damage.
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oh i see. Ya why not.
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I approve, would scare a few "free kill" cav lancer-infantry or onehandercav-infantry off their horsies and make them pure infs again (would reduce the cav crowding, which I however personally still don't think is to insane atm, but others do).
~Class~ Horse thrower, I personally got no IF and not that heavy armor, so I won't be harmed much as I am always two-hit before getting up again anyway (this means I'm not an actual person who'd be nerfed by this whatsoever).
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I approve, would scare a few "free kill" cav lancer-infantry or onehandercav-infantry off their horsies and make them pure infs again (would reduce the cav crowding, which I however personally still don't think is to insane atm, but others do).
~Class~ Horse thrower, I personally got no IF and not that heavy armor, so I won't be harmed much as I am always two-hit before getting up again anyway (this means I'm not an actual person who'd be nerfed by this whatsoever).
Yeah, it could encourage some riders to get off their horses when they're heavily hurt, or think about it twice when charging with a nearly-dead horse, so it won't nerf heavily LOGICAL and prudent players, just the "hollywod-mind" suicidal ones.
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cmon vote
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inb4 GK invasion
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I saw "please implement fa...." and I really got my hopes up it was "fatalities" but NO goddamnit NO
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Cav is too easy to play right now. Nearly no drawbacks, except cost.
No damage from collisions ... no damage from falls ... delivers damage just bumping, even failing charges ... no exhaustion... light horses get no damage from bumping ... NO DRAWBACKS AT ALL, even the logical ones (collisions, falls, autodamage from bumps). Besieds, you fall from your horse and you're a full health infantry ... cmon!!!
I agree that cav should be overpowered when flanking, but right now they're superior in every circumstance, you have a horse with 1hp, and you can charge full speed, charge somene, fail but still bump him and kill him ... surprise, your horse didn't die ... ridiculouos
Just 2 or 3 changes in that way wouldn't nerf the class completely, just make it to be played the way they should be. Good cav players don't have to be afraid, cause they are already doing it well, it's just the noobish cavs that should be afraid.
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I've jumped off a cliff and died with my horse on falls high enough. I believe it does exist but I think it has to be from pretty high up. I do agree though. If horse takes a 20% damage the rider should too.
It doesnt exist. Back when people were creating ladder towers into the sky I jumped off a few with a horse and while the horse died, I got up as if nothing happened.
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Fuck no idiots who voted yes for this.
You do realise that when a cav gets taken down the person is immobile on the ground for a good few seconds? A huge number of cav deaths happen during that time, or at least a significant amount of damage. The only way this should be implemented is if cav IMMEDIATELY get up from falling off their horses. Admittedly sometime the player model spazzes out in the ground, but most of the time it's a free kill for inf or other cav who are near the downed cav player.
Also a buff to horses themselves would be required as they are currently paper thin and go down very easily. Furthermore, inf should take increased damage from bumping. As being hit by a charging horse in real life would near cripple you...so that gets rid of the bullshit 'this is what happens in real life' argument.
Basically it's to much work for a pointless feature. Fail balance suggestion and this should go in the 'realism' board.
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Fuck no idiots who voted yes for this.
You do realise that when a cav gets taken down the person is immobile on the ground for a good few seconds? A huge number of cav deaths happen during that time, or at least a significant amount of damage. The only way this should be implemented is if cav IMMEDIATELY get up from falling off their horses. Admittedly sometime the player model spazzes out in the ground, but most of the time it's a free kill for inf or other cav who are near the downed cav player.
Also a buff to horses themselves would be required as they are currently paper thin and go down very easily. Furthermore, inf should take increased damage from bumping. As being hit by a charging horse in real life would near cripple you...so that gets rid of the bullshit 'this is what happens in real life' argument.
Basically it's to much work for a pointless feature. Fail balance suggestion and this should go in the 'realism' board.
This.
Downed horsemen stay like that during a good few seconds, allowing most melee to hit them twice and even three times for some people. So if you kill someone's horse alone, you get 2 free hits on him. When you consider most cav builds, that equals to a dead horseman. Better yet, headshotting people on the ground with a projectile is very easy.
Infantry gets bump damage and recover time from even failed charges of cav
This statement is ridiculously biased. Most often when you are bumped by cav (which happens only if you weren't paying attention, or was overwhelmed), you get 0 bump damage if you have medium armor and are back on your feet immediately. Sometimes you are really bumped to the ground but even that one is shorter than a knockdown from a melee weapon. Isn't that stupid ?
A damage on fall would only help ranged against cav as they would only need to shoot the horse and it would magically inflict damage to the rider. Ranged should be weak against cav and they already aren't at all.
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Ranged should be weak against cav? Biased bullshit. Ranged is the only true counter to cav. Don't say that pikes are, they just repel them and ain't a true counter
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For all of you that said that you get a few second paralyzed when falling from a horse ... you also get paralyzed when bumped by a horse, for the same time ... and guess it, YOU ALSO TAKE DAMAGE, while the horse doesn't. And it's not negigible damage, a courser at top speed actually damages someone in medium armor (55 total value) considerably.
So it's your point that is biased, not mine. Please try to be objective, you're becoming the "hollywood-based" cav i was talking about (cav owns everything, never gets damage, even when they fail). The suggestion comes in term of balance, and also of logical thinking.
It had to be a GK ..................................
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I would have voted "no", if all was perfectly good and balanced.
But at the moment, it's just so irritating to see :
-the rider falling after his horse is dead. You stab him, nothing happens. And a few seconds latter, he kills you from behind, because of a weird teleporting/invisible bug. And he's still full health, ready to whistle another horse.
-the rider falling after his horse is dead. But thanks to his shield, that he never let go while falling, he manages to "stop" the arrow you shot at him, while being on the ground.
-the rider falling after his horse is dead. But weird hitboxes makes you hit the ground instead of his head, and here you stagger, while he stands up, undamaged.
Since we have all this, AND bump damage wich is rather consequent, i vote "yes", with pleasure. And stop whinning damn cav, how many times do you fall off your horse in a round ? Once ? Twice ? Are you as heavily armored as the lads you trumple on ? Then just take this tiny 10% damage, or whatever, get up, and fight.
If you really fell in the middle of ennemies (your fault for being greedy in the first place), then you'd never have a chance anyway full life, so it doesn't matter if you loose some of it because of the fall.
PS : As said below, it's indeed already pretty nice that the heavy lance is 2 slots, even when it has an overhead that can be used on ground. Wich allows "CAV" to also be more effective on "foot".
It's always fun to watch a pikeman kill an horse, thrust once at the fallen rider, who gets up, with a mighty big axe, and chops the hell outa the pikeman. Then, he whistles another horse, and gets back to rampage. Real fact :
Pikeman > Horse. But Rider > Pikeman.
Still they are very good support too, so no reason to really compare that now, but it's always irritating to see biaised topics of cav players, even in such not-that-much-of-a-nerf suggestion. Stop lobying as hell, this was an earnest suggestion, not a "make the heavy lance 3 slots". (wich could be interesting, mind you)
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Fuck no idiots who voted yes for this.
You do realise that when a cav gets taken down the person is immobile on the ground for a good few seconds? A huge number of cav deaths happen during that time, or at least a significant amount of damage. The only way this should be implemented is if cav IMMEDIATELY get up from falling off their horses. Admittedly sometime the player model spazzes out in the ground, but most of the time it's a free kill for inf or other cav who are near the downed cav player.
Main reason I'd want this is that it'd remove the people who put three points in riding, get a rouncey, and besides that are mainly inf (I used to play like this a long time ago)... It'd also do so after each teams lancers charge on each other you won't be left with tons of people on the ground with a heavy lance... yes, I die in two hits and therefore won't be nerfed by this in any way, yes, cav who crashes in a group of ten infantry would die anyway, however, this would make a lancer-inf hybrid actually have a real downside from just being a regular inf...
IMO a better solution would be to make the heavy lance a three slot weapon as it'd also stop people from throwing three points into riding and then not having much worse cav-lancer builds than the actual dedicated lancers...
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At least 2/3 of the time I get dismounted I instantly die from being dogpiled by infantry or by 1 archer/xbow aiming at the head. The rest of the time I am usually stuck far behind enemy lines with cav swarming for a kill. I don't think its a necessary change.
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My character has loads of ironflesh and strength, so when my horse gets downed, I rarely die if downed by a single person (from full health) then proceed to kill him when I get up. For me, it feels kind of cheap to just go wee like you're on a slide when falling.
I suppose for other cav, they're very squishy so they die in one hit, though.
Still not sure about damage when horse dies. I'd rather they implement horse damage when colliding with walls or riders not teleporting when the horse gets killed first. I personally would be fine with 20% damage but I'm not sure how other people will like it.
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yes, but not alone, if this gets implemented,something needs buff
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leave cav alone. If you want realism ok,implement also decapitating limbs if someone hit you with sword in arm or leg,inplement fall down if you miss target with big and heavy weapon,implement stamina so ppl can't spam with swings... You don't like changes? Nether do i,leave this mode as it is. Mod is balanced.
@gazda no problem lets buff bump dmg.
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Also a buff to horses themselves would be required as they are currently paper thin and go down very easily. Furthermore, inf should take increased damage from bumping. As being hit by a charging horse in real life would near cripple you...
this makes me want to vote yes, realism bullshit argument.
like bulzur said, weird hitboxes prevent range from hitting correctly a downed cav. and teleportation too
-cav's bump knockdowns and does damage(a lot)
-dehorsed cav gets knockdown (and a buggy one) and no damage
make it balance give them damage
ps : decrease stoopid leg damage already
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Cav is NOT overpowered, problem is that infantry just randomly rushes and doesnt watch out for cav.
Cavalry is very costy, any horse above destrier makes you loose money FAST, so in order to be stable with the money, you need to combine max destrier+ 17k max eqp.
Destrier goes down in 2-4 arrows
there is no cav in the world that can kill aware 2h or polearm user 1v1, even the aware 1hers can deal with cav 1v1. problem is only that the whole team always just rushes and doesnt pay atention to suroundings.
80% Cav kills are unaware idiots
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No cav in the world can kill aware inf? Nice joke
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Meh realism is lame if we wanted that then increase horse bump damage. Horses are big animals and getting trampled by one is probably going to leave you in a coma if you're lucky. But since that make everybody cry I want a jump button, like I'm screwed so I'm going to jump of my horse before I get dehorsed and brutally murdered while I try and get up. If they give me that then id agree with fall damage oh and dead horses should crush my enemies while they fly into you.
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Yes mr. realism, implement this, but at the same time a plated charger weighing god knows how many kg also kills and maims you when it bumps you mmkay? Got that? ok lock whine thread.
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I wonder how many retards are capable of understanding this suggestion is not due to realism and some shit, it would lower cav-infantry a lot, as there'd be a possible con for their rouncey and heavy lance besides the extra upkeep... most dedicated none-hybrid cav are really squishy and would be dead anyway... it'd stop cav battles with twenty guys on each team from turning into fourteen people on the ground...
but IMO they should just make the fucking heavy lance 3 slot as it'd fix the big issues.
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When has cav-inf hybrid ever been a problem? The balance for them is the fact they're wasting three points in riding when it can easily go into something more useful. And a rouncey really? Rounceys are squishy and make easy targets for dedicated cav and even for most infantry.
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When your horse dies you are "stuck" on the ground for a good 1 or 2 seconds already. Most of my deaths happen in this period of time. And the good players will stab, stab, kick, stab and I'm dead.
The only way I can see implementing this is if you also make it possible for me to jump off my horse. The only way to dismount is to come to a complete stop, stare at the ground for 1 full second, and then hit your use key when it says "dismount horse". God forbid there's any equipment on the ground or I'm picking it up and not dismounting.
Also I think if you implement this, then you should also make it when my horse dies, and it's corpse flies into someone, that person should get demolished.
leave cav alone. If you want realism ok,implement also decapitating limbs if someone hit you with sword in arm or leg,inplement fall down if you miss target with big and heavy weapon,implement stamina so ppl can't spam with swings... You don't like changes? Nether do i,leave this mode as it is. Mod is balanced.
@gazda no problem lets buff bump dmg.
QFT!!!
There is a lot that could potentially be changed to make it "more realistic", but the mod is very well balanced as it is. Leave it alone already...for every balance suggestion, I can come back with one to counter it.
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I reckon a small amount of damage would be a fair countermeasure. I'm a cav player (when I can afford it) and I do a lot of suiciding.
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The only way I can see implementing this is if you also make it possible for me to jump off my horse. The only way to dismount is to come to a complete stop, stare at the ground for 1 full second, and then hit your use key when it says "dismount horse". God forbid there's any equipment on the ground or I'm picking it up and not dismounting.
I've always supported such a feature.
When has cav-inf hybrid ever been a problem? The balance for them is the fact they're wasting three points in riding when it can easily go into something more useful. And a rouncey really? Rounceys are squishy and make easy targets for dedicated cav and even for most infantry.
Rouncey is quite a good horse, believe it or not, tons of EU rouncey lancer-tincans with a twohander build riding around, this change would probably scare a few of them off (but imo a three-slot heavy lance would fix it better), and sometimes I have to admit there are "slightly" to many cav on a server, most of them crappy inf's with three points in riding.
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Negative feedback comes only from cav players .... ummmm they want to keep supremacy ... cheap kills and no cheap deaths.
So i would change the suggestion, remove all damage done by horse bumps ok? Just to be fair, no fall damage, no bump damage ...
I'd like to see the opinions on this. Surely same exploiters whine about it.
It's a fair suggestion, stop complaining about "Hell 90% of the time i die in the 2-3 seconds i last to stand up when i'm dehorsered". Shit, just count the number of times you kill someone with a bump + the number of times someone is killed in the 2-3 seconds after receiving a horse bump. It triples the times you are killed in a fall. You actually have little risk in going suicidal charging with a 1 hp horse, and still you kill people.
Shit I hate unconsequent people.
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You see, various things let me think you know nothing of what you are talking about.
For all of you that said that you get a few second paralyzed when falling from a horse ... you also get paralyzed when bumped by a horse, for the same time
This is mathematically false. Check ingame.
You actually have little risk in going suicidal charging with a 1 hp horse, and still you kill people.
This is false too. Being on a horse is always more risky than being on foot. A low HP horse is not very different form a low HP char, except it's even more risky. Riders which lose their horse near enemies die. Sometimes they might survive and get up but this is the exception. A horse isn't a "second life bar" at all, it's more like a replacement of the char's life bar.
Negative feedback comes only from cav players .... ummmm they want to keep supremacy ... cheap kills and no cheap deaths.
In my first post I expressed myself as a melee and cav player, having the experience of both worlds, then you try to dismiss me with a pathetic ad hominem... When I'm on the ground as 1h+shield, I have no problems dealing with cav, just like most decent players. If you want this argument to be done like that, I should ask you how you do against cav then ? This whole thread looks a lot like a "I've been killed by X, nerf X !" thread. Look and ask around, all the good melee and ranged players either kill or dodge cav that try to hit them when they are aware. A personal weakness is no base for a nerf.
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If the dehorsing hadn't been completely bugged I would not support it. The time you spend on the ground before being able to get up is enough to get you killed most of the time. However, with all the teleporting and shit leaving horsemen unharmed while being dismounted in a large blob still happening, I do support this change.
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If the dehorsing hadn't been completely bugged I would not support it. The time you spend on the ground before being able to get up is enough to get you killed most of the time. However, with all the teleporting and shit leaving horsemen unharmed while being dismounted in a large blob still happening, I do support this change.
The teleporting happens a relatively minor amount of the times I see downed cav. From what I've observed cav dying from being on the ground is far more likely. It's rare that the teleporting 10m away happens.
Negative feedback comes only from cav players .... ummmm they want to keep supremacy ... cheap kills and no cheap deaths.
So i would change the suggestion, remove all damage done by horse bumps ok? Just to be fair, no fall damage, no bump damage ...
I'd like to see the opinions on this. Surely same exploiters whine about it.
It's a fair suggestion, stop complaining about "Hell 90% of the time i die in the 2-3 seconds i last to stand up when i'm dehorsered". Shit, just count the number of times you kill someone with a bump + the number of times someone is killed in the 2-3 seconds after receiving a horse bump. It triples the times you are killed in a fall. You actually have little risk in going suicidal charging with a 1 hp horse, and still you kill people.
Shit I hate unconsequent people.
I like to think of bump damage as the cavs equivalent of polestagger or crushthrough. Heck it's only truly effective on the destrier and courser (not counting heavies since the leg damage thing nerfed them to hell). Any other horse is far less likely to do significant damage from a bump and is less likely to bump the person to the ground full stop. The price your paying and the points you put into riding more than compensate for the ability to bump damage.
And actually no it isn't triple the amount of times I die in a fall. Stop pulling random 'statistics' out of your arse. I do use the bump to set up a lot of kills for team mates because as an HA that's more effective than trying to kill them myself, but the enemy cav does the same so it's more than fair. Plus I've come across more than enough decent inf who will take me off my horse if I try that.
A suicidal charge on a horse will be just that. You'll die very quickly against any infantryman worth their salt.
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Cavalry shooting an idea down because we want to keep the "supremacy" to themselves. Well that wasn't a biased statement at all, and first off. I dont ever really remember War Horses being very nice about trampling over infantry and pretty sure the game does things like this for balance. Instead of giving a penalty to the cav players how about we fix a bug that happens ever so so often. And most of my kills come in the form of infantry charging at me trying to kill my horse all alone or I have successfully appeared behind a nice group of unaware infantry engaging my team.
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In my first post I expressed myself as a melee and cav player, having the experience of both worlds, then you try to dismiss me with a pathetic ad hominem... When I'm on the ground as 1h+shield, I have no problems dealing with cav, just like most decent players. If you want this argument to be done like that, I should ask you how you do against cav then ? This whole thread looks a lot like a "I've been killed by X, nerf X !" thread. Look and ask around, all the good melee and ranged players either kill or dodge cav that try to hit them when they are aware. A personal weakness is no base for a nerf.
This would nerf heavy armor none-cav inmy old friendtries on a horse, (which might just bring cav pop down to a reasonable level, as I've said 3slot heavy lances should be the way to go, but I don't feel like making such a thread atm)... it'd also do so in cav-lancermy old friend-vs-cav-lancermy old friend fights it won't end with a guy riding away on a horse and a guy walking away dehorsed (or just looting another nearby rouncey), all dedicated cav die 90% of the time they get dehorsed to more than one inf player anyway...
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i voted yes just because of equality , i'd add damage on horses when they bump someone (obviously armored horses will take minor damage) and unsaddling (depending on the riding skill) when the horse is being hitted (and he stops) with pikes or the horseman is hit at high speed.
if you implement these features you could raise bump damage.
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Don't think cavalry players coming in here posting their perspectives (even if they are overwhelmingly not in favor of this idea) are just trying to protect their class:
They are speaking because they actually know first hand the nature of being dismounted, and how often it leads to instant death (3/4 of the time at least)
I play plenty of classes and think cav could use some more nerfs, but not this way. Its simply a bad and unfun suggestion.
Actually try playing classes before you try to give balance ideas.
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havnt really read what was posted before but sometimes players take risks and use abit of intelligence to dehorse an enemy lancer. Some are not even melee build, so for already managing to dehorse the cav it should be at least rewarede with a bit of damage fall.
this though came after speccing a crossbower being harassed for a good 30 sec by a lancer. The xbowman managed to cleverly dehorse the enemy cav but once the cav dehorse he got killed by the rider.
In the end the rider was more of a danger on foot then on his horse.
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I have mixed views on this.
While it is true that Cavalry people are really vulnerable when their horse just got taken out and they're on the ground, the engine absolutely sucks at translating that properly in a gameplay perspective.
I very rarely get to actually kill a downed horseman for several reasons, first is the obvious fact that downed horsemans exists in a different plane of reality and are usually under the map or their hitboxes are just entirely unexistant for a while, not to mention the fact that they can usually get up and block/hit you without going through the animation since it was hidden by them going up and they can actually attack or block while only at 40% of the standing animation.
Another thing is how unstable the engine is at dealing with the faux-physics of this game which will usually result in the downed horseman to get launched (Read: teleport) 30 full yards behind you and everyone else that helped in taking down the horse.
These problems, especially the first one is even worse when the horse is downed on a cliffside, since as we all know, horses are actually mountain goats in disguise, and when you kill them on a cliffside, the rider is just entirely inside the cliff, so no way to hit him.
I say this could be implemented in place of the terrible faux-physics of this game, unless the codes are magically fixed, maybe by this new engine patch from that upcoming DLC.