cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Zisa on March 22, 2012, 11:21:33 pm

Title: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Zisa on March 22, 2012, 11:21:33 pm
Here is a question to mull over - Does the game Warband have a dual personality?

The appeal of the game, the target audience, seems to be the RTS crowd and the Action crowd.

RTS - you have the Stronghold games, Lords of the Realms, etc.
Command armies and take over the map, like playing Risk without having to consult a rules pamphlet or search for dice that get thrown at opponents.

Action - Screw that armchair general crap, I want to smash someone in the face!

Historical Simulation wankers - lets not forget them, they always show up to voice their opinions on historical accuracy. So I guess it is more of a multiple personality and not just split.

Now Warband itself at it's core is an action game. Unfortunately, Taleworlds wanted to maintain it's fanbase which was not as narrow as a strictly action game would be. Thus we have khergits and horse archery.
From an RTS/histerical wanker view, these fit.
From an 'action' viewpoint these were always a headache to 'try' to balance into the game world.

Face it, here is a class of character with the ability to never get within range of the enemy while inflicting damage. It is fun in single player to circle jerk vast hordes of enemies and constantly hit your loot trunk to reload on arrows.
From a multiplayer 'action' viewpoint, it's one of the stupidest things ever. Seriously, most of the time I feel we may as well have that guy on the flying carpet shooting fireballs from the sky.

There is always justifications of course, and like other stupid mechanics the 'primary' justification ends up not being the primary use of that mechanic at all.

Biggest justification for a few things - it's anti cavalry.
You and I know by now anything anti cavalry is usually used as anything but.
Players are not entirely stupid, so they quickly figure out that a good bet to being effective and helping the team is to take the easiest targets. And that is usually the infantry that is otherwise engaged and looking somewhere else, or the goon 2hander who disdains a shield.
Oh and that brings up early the old 'shield counters range' argument. Shield is kind of useless when you block the range in front of you and the mounted tard behind you shoots you in the back.
Mind you that 13 shield is a great turd of a troll - haha.

Back to that 'anti cavalry' - most horseman avoid pikers as long as they can, except for the truly daring or truly daft. When pikers really have to be faced clever horseman team up. Often you can see characters usually in heavy armor supporting infantry fighting other infantry. I'm pretty much ok with this though, except for the shenanigans of the spin thrust, possible with any thrusting weapon. It is quite silly to me to see these pikers and lol thrusters barely tap an opponent from the side and inflict maximum damage - which is how to get around the glance mechanic - another truly irritating feature who's existence is meant to improve immersion (or some such crap) while accomplishing the exact opposite. Does it make sense that a fast dagger built for thrusting continually glances off of any armor? Personally I could see glancing removed and gladly accept damage from hits that should have hit in the first place.

Crush through - If it is at all possible to allow chamber blocks versus CT overhead attacks please make it so, then I would be ok with this.

Slow me down, terrain penalties and rain clogging me boots reducing the effectiveness of athletics. It's usually the high STR low INT build players that have a problem with foot work. Combined with the added delays to the swings it makes dancing more difficult then it need be and forces a disadvantage versus cavalry as attacks are more telegraphed, and it makes it easier for cav to run you over without getting hit. Also, back when the 2h swings got this millstone delay there was some mention of 'good things are coming as a result' - I have not noticed these yet, maybe I am slow.

fear of ninjas
Lower strength high agility builds usually have to score multiple hits while not making a mistake or die to that one enemy hit; the continual snail creep of lowering weapon speeds and the total elimination of anything approaching 200 wpf hinders the action. People can sing praises of 3 minute duels these days, yet in the long distant past of cRPG blocking was actually an accomplishment and a skill desirable to be constantly improved. I've watched a couple good players nowadays who it seems lazily riposte or block as the mood fits.

Heirlooms, weapons versus Armor.
Tier 3 heavy armor gaines 5 points to body and leg armor.
Tier 3 2hander gain a point of speed, 1 or 2 thurst and 3 cut.
Again seems even more of an advantage in survivability to strength builds. Ultimately even your tier 3 weapon is going to do less and less damage as other armor pieces get loomed. Really can't say what the numbers 'mean' but there you go. It would seem having 4 tier 3 armor pieces is going to be more effective then 4 tier 3 weapons as you can only swing one weapon at a time.
Numbers
Often enough some suggestion in the suggestions/balance forums end up with a lot of numbers bandied about - numbers, but what do they really mean? Here's where the intangibles get ignored and usually common sense as well.

Cavalry.
I've always enjoyed fighting cavalry, it's my favourite food.
Nerfs to other classes usually means a nerf to cavalry is going to follow.

My least favourite cav nerf has been the restriction to lance arc. One of the justifications for this I have heard is to give non lancer cav more of a chance, to which I say, screw them and their shite bump slashing. Bump stabbing of course is another irritation from any melee cav. The most fun I had as cav was going after other cav - not the wisest or kdr'st thing to do but who gives a rat's arse about kdr when there is a more thrilling challenge? Maybe I'll check out the new lancer cav one day.
As a boon to infantry, how the heck does this change cavalry running one through from behind? Oh, it means less cavalry will try to challenge you head on (yes there are a few), as they are better off thanks to this 'nerf' to circle like sharks and take the easiest opportunites.

The biggest problem with cavalry has always been infantry tunnel vision and a refusal to constantly look around. Hey, I mapped my 'view outfit' key or whatever the look around command is called to my left shift. It is not a guarantee against getting ganked by cav, but hopefully it may help some of you avoid getting lanced from behind at the 6:30 mark as you trot from the spawn towards the center of the map. Unless you are chatting, then you'll probably still get lanced from behind at about the 6:30 mark.

Earlier Collisions ... Introduced to eliminate those clowns swinging through walls and other nonsense, it has the added bonus of making fighting on any slope almost random and certainly more punitive (maps are either flat earth society or some too hilly village). Eliminating one frustration but creating more.

Pole Stagger
The usual justification goes something like: it balances out the crappy animations.
So it's perfectly fine for some whiffle bat spear to stun lock someone - ok, it's not, but it's even worse when a poleaxe gets a hit then more free hits due to this nonsense.

Speed and feinting
I am probably as surprised as the guy who gets hit after a feint. I still do it, out of habit I suppose, but I can't help thinking that the current slower pace of melee is not challenging players to improve but is really dulling them and their reactions. There is the occasional long fight, but watching from deathcam there are far more 'why didn't he block is he an ai' type of moments.

Add to this frustrating mix, it would seem the devs really like strategus (the RTS crowd) and the results do not seem to favour the action crowd.

I will say though, I've seen some nice new items and textures.

Congrats on reading this far, if you didn't AND post tl:dr I am putting you on my list.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Kafein on March 22, 2012, 11:31:53 pm
Some of your points are good, but I really can't accept this :

Slow me down, terrain penalties and rain clogging me boots reducing the effectiveness of athletics. It's usually the high STR low INT build players that have a problem with foot work. Combined with the added delays to the swings it makes dancing more difficult then it need be and forces a disadvantage versus cavalry as attacks are more telegraphed, and it makes it easier for cav to run you over without getting hit. Also, back when the 2h swings got this millstone delay there was some mention of 'good things are coming as a result' - I have not noticed these yet, maybe I am slow.

Characters in cRPG lack any kind of inertia, except when you wear super heavy armor with a str build. Due to this, dancing is extremely effective, and it shouldn't.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Apsod on March 22, 2012, 11:38:35 pm
Read the whole thing. I agree with you on pretty much everything, but what is the point of this post. I mean, what do you want to change? Or do you just want to tell people what you think :?
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Zisa on March 22, 2012, 11:44:13 pm
Read the whole thing. I agree with you on pretty much everything, but what is the point of this post. I mean, what do you want to change? Or do you just want to tell people what you think :?
Just textualising what may be on some people's minds. There is always the hope some dev will read it and maybe explore some possibilities.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Zisa on March 22, 2012, 11:46:08 pm
Some of your points are good, but I really can't accept this :

Characters in cRPG lack any kind of inertia, except when you wear super heavy armor with a str build. Due to this, dancing is extremely effective, and it shouldn't.
Well I regretfully must put you  in the high str low int group then, because I disagree with you.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Kivlov on March 22, 2012, 11:56:41 pm
Dancing is an advantage afforded high AGI players. They can dodge attacks with high athletics because they can change directions quickly whereas Str crutchers just take it on the chin. It's how it should be.

Didn't know rain slowed people down. And Id really like to see polestun eliminated. None of these high strength pole/bardiche 2 hitting me because I goofed a block and they mouse turned the second swing into me before I could block anymore would be swell.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Kafein on March 23, 2012, 12:04:06 am
Well I regretfully must put you  in the high str low int group then, because I disagree with you.

Most of the chars I play have 18 agi or more. My main is 15/21. My problem is not being high STR, it's hating the footwork paradigm that imposed itself over the melee combat as player skill improved. And hating the now quite abundant fake peasants with 8 ATH that are both barely catchable for infantry because they are too fast and for cavalry because in this game you can sprint in one direction and instantly make a 90 degree turn without failing terribly like any human being, or even slowing down.

I suggest adding at least 10 units of weight to nude characters, to reduce this sillyness.

Don't get me wrong, I think the agi/str balance is ok at the moment. But everyone is generally too agile. You might even speed up the game if a fixed weight is added to all characters, to make up for it.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Earthdforce on March 23, 2012, 12:10:11 am
No rage about high strength katana users? I am ashamed :P.

All in all, I mostly agree with your points, and I'd like to thank you for taking the time to write this all out. I know it wasn't easy.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Cris on March 23, 2012, 12:26:53 am

Historical Simulation wankers - lets not forget them, they always show up to voice their opinions on historical accuracy. So I guess it is more of a multiple personality and not just split.

Now Warband itself at it's core is an action game. Unfortunately, Taleworlds wanted to maintain it's fanbase which was not as narrow as a strictly action game would be. Thus we have khergits and horse archery.
From an RTS/histerical wanker view, these fit.
From an 'action' viewpoint these were always a headache to 'try' to balance into the game world.

Face it, here is a class of character with the ability to never get within range of the enemy while inflicting damage. It is fun in single player to circle jerk vast hordes of enemies and constantly hit your loot trunk to reload on arrows.
From a multiplayer 'action' viewpoint, it's one of the stupidest things ever. Seriously, most of the time I feel we may as well have that guy on the flying carpet shooting fireballs from the sky.

First of all, I did read all. Just comenting on what interest me here.

If you think only mongolian type armies had Horse Archers, you are mistaken. They had HA units, but all armies had HAs, even european one. (lets not forget mounted crossbowmen, and then with time mounted guns)

Easy to see you dont play HA nor like them. Bad arrow damage (even standing still you get horseback penalty), ranged mounted doesnt not get attacker speed bonus/penalty, bad aiming, limited arrows, unlessness on foot and stupidly high upkeep (Im currently playing 1H cav with much more expensive gear and I still make money on low multipliers) and that it actually takes skill to play well - stress on "play well" an annoying HA doesnt mean he's a good one. Good HAs in cRPG i can count with my fingers.

HA is not sputid from a multiplier point of view, I like it; its a challenge, I like fighting them as HA, as footman (unless doing a unshielded alt, but thats the same for archers) and as horseman. If you know what you are doing, you can beat most HAs. HAs also give a game a great amount of tactical diversity and encurages team play.

I know that if you are on your own and you are fighting 2 or more HAs it sucks, but look at the stats, there aren't that many HAs in the servers, so that chances of that happening is that the footman/cav man went on his own so it isnt a game imbalance...

Anyway raging is good, i like it. It shows you care about the mod...If the mod was really bad, people wouldnt rage like we do here, we would just leave :)
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Zisa on March 23, 2012, 12:28:47 am
Most of the chars I play have 18 agi or more. My main is 15/21. My problem is not being high STR, it's hating the footwork paradigm that imposed itself over the melee combat as player skill improved. And hating the now quite abundant fake peasants with 8 ATH that are both barely catchable for infantry because they are too fast and for cavalry because in this game you can sprint in one direction and instantly make a 90 degree turn without failing terribly like any human being, or even slowing down.

I suggest adding at least 10 units of weight to nude characters, to reduce this sillyness.

Don't get me wrong, I think the agi/str balance is ok at the moment. But everyone is generally too agile. You might even speed up the game if a fixed weight is added to all characters, to make up for it.
Yikes!
Well my 8 ath peasant is more like 6 ath thanks to the stupid weapon choice of flamberge, but that's my own fault.

I question your use of the term sprint, as it looks more like a leisurely stroll or trot to me, and firmly believe the characters are not agile enough. I particularily enjoyed the footwork paradigm, and fondly remember fights with other speed freaks (the first being canary). I had no problem in the long ago past of dying to str monsters such as Wallace, and feel agility (athletics and weapon master) have suffered to the point of being more of a choice for those determined to use that playstyle rather then it being as competitive as a strength build.

And yes I am aware my views are likely coloured by a predisposition to a certain playstyle, but it does seem that every patch has done it's best to eliminate that very style.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 23, 2012, 12:38:43 am
You forgot to say something about last archery change --> highspeed sniping archers with pinpoint accuracy headshotting everyone even with low pd.


Nice text so far :)


To the question of someone what the reason for this is. Read title:  it's about what makes people rage. All these things you wrote about make me rage, too. And what is it that makes us rage? Exactly: All the stupid unrealistic things. Make the game more realistic and more people will be happy.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Casimir on March 23, 2012, 12:40:42 am
The cav lance angles did drive most lancers into hunting infantry / horse stabbing rather than fighting real cav fights IMO.

Basically the Dev team has nerfed everything so hard from native that its all pretty crappy these days.  When it takes so long to kill people it becomes fairly frustrating.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Kafein on March 23, 2012, 12:41:43 am
Yikes!
Well my 8 ath peasant is more like 6 ath thanks to the stupid weapon choice of flamberge, but that's my own fault.

I question your use of the term sprint, as it looks more like a leisurely stroll or trot to me, and firmly believe the characters are not agile enough. I particularily enjoyed the footwork paradigm, and fondly remember fights with other speed freaks (the first being canary). I had no problem in the long ago past of dying to str monsters such as Wallace, and feel agility (athletics and weapon master) have suffered to the point of being more of a choice for those determined to use that playstyle rather then it being as competitive as a strength build.

And yes I am aware my views are likely coloured by a predisposition to a certain playstyle, but it does seem that every patch has done it's best to eliminate that very style.

Athletics is more useful than it ever was, thanks to the footwork paradigm it has become a necessity for all builds, cavalry included. I don't know any experienced player that doesn't max it so it clearly does not need any buff. WM isn't that good but still remains one of the top necessities of ranged chars, hybrids and people that use particularly slow weapons.

Agi builds are very competitive, mostly because today bounces never happen due to the attack being too weak. Ask around, many top 2h/pole players are 18/21. Nearly all the ranged players also have at least 21 agi.

The balance team as done a very moderated job on that matter. Movement acceleration remains untouched since the dawn of cRPG, and armor got nerfed to hell.


About the motivations of this thread : unrealistic human agility is part of the things that make me rage the most. Playing cavalry against peasant archers feels like controlling a supertanker which goal is to hit powerboats equipped with rocket launchers.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: oohillac on March 23, 2012, 12:45:59 am
Some good points Zisa.
While I can't speak to it all, I believe that the polestagger should definitely be looked at for slashing polearms.  My hoplite needs it, but a GLA/Poleaxe/whathaveyou does not.

As for Cav, players need to open their minds a little and consider hybriding slightly for either a shield or a crossbow.  I know you cannot (flamberge), but other players should consider it.  Even carrying a 1-slot Military Fork (with no wpf) can deter cavalry quite a bit.  Unsheathable-weapon players can spawn with a pole, then drop it when engaging infantry.

Dual personality?  Maybe.  Personally, Strat always seemed like a strategy/wargame side-game, with action-based CRPG at the forefront.  Definitely less twitch-based action compared to, say, first-person shooters.  In CRPG carrying a shield can make up for blocking reflexes.

Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Joker86 on March 23, 2012, 01:09:11 am
I think the main reason for rage in cRPG (that's what the title says this thread is about) are not so much the points you listed up.

I think it's the missing will of the players to leave their subjective point of view. All that counts for them is their "micro-game", in other words the player fighting another player. They don't care a single bit about the "macro-game", which is more about teamplay and tactics. Even if you manage to make a team follow a plan, their motivation will be more to be able to kill enemy players again (after having been raped several times and being prowd owner of a 0:3 k/d), instead of winning the round, which is what the game is about. (It is about winning rounds, because your k/d has no impact on the game, but your w/l determines the XP and the money you get! And the standard mode is TEAM deathmatch, not deathmach free for all!)

The best example is cav. I think the class is heavily underpowered, stat wise, especially heavy cav. But in reality, on the servers, cav can easily be the dominating class, and the team which got more cav usually wins the map. At least light and medium cav does. They do it even with their awful stats, because the rest of the players on the servers sucks incredibly in dealing with cav. I bet even with 0 bump damage, 0 horse armour and 1 horse hitpoint you would still have several decent players on the server having 3:1 k/d or even better.

My point is: cav is not dealt with by skill, it's dealt with by the right behaviour, which is called teamplay. (And a few other things like not listening to music while playing or constantly looking around while walking).

And this observation applies to a lot of other classes... shieldmen, two handers, maulers and so on... even HA's can be countered on equal chances (well, better than nothing, huh?)

But as long as players refuse to change their mind, and leave certain enemies to other teammates, while trying to concentrate on their own specialization and helping out other teammates (instead of just "hunting your target class"), they will always suffer from the impression of having been killed too easily. Which will always lead to flaming and "nerf this and that"-whine-threads.

Make cRPG being more of a strategy game, than of a skill based "who's got the better reflexes and muscle memory?"-game, and the nerf cries will become fewer. Change the mod description and the information on the way to the download, you can change more at this point than at any other moment in the carreer of a cRPG player. It's the same rules like educating children. What you teach them first is remembered and followed the best. Then add ingame features that support teamplay and make coordinations within the team better, a command system would be the most important of those features. Changing the default game mode from battle, which is basing on killing the enemy to something different, which bases on holding several points on the map would shift the focus from killing enemies to winning rounds.

Change that stuff, and you will see which classes are really OP. It won't be the that many as you would think.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Count_Adhamar on March 23, 2012, 02:04:43 am
Make cRPG being more of a strategy game, than of a skill based "who's got the better reflexes and muscle memory?"-game, and the nerf cries will become fewer.

-1

Unrealistic and that's unrewarding to people who actually have skill in the game. Rage cries on realism would increase if this was implemented. Strategy is already present in this game, but best not to go to the extreme of what you're asking.

Changing the default game mode from battle, which is basing on killing the enemy to something different, which bases on holding several points on the map would shift the focus from killing enemies to winning rounds.

-1

Less combat focused and therefore more boring.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Malaclypse on March 23, 2012, 02:10:55 am
Agi builds are very competitive, mostly because today bounces never happen due to the attack being too weak.

My 2 and 3 Powerstrike characters beg to differ. Even 5 and 6 sometimes bounces off of Plate when it would have connected on lower armor.

I had no problem in the long ago past of dying to str monsters such as Wallace, and feel agility (athletics and weapon master) have suffered to the point of being more of a choice for those determined to use that playstyle rather then it being as competitive as a strength build.

Totally agree. I love playing agi builds, mostly on alts without the benefit of Reinforced Ragged Outfits and MW Italian Swords and what have you.  I have a 6/30 Archer/1hand/shield that is hilariously ineffective on anything other than clothies and last hits.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 23, 2012, 02:12:57 am
-1

Unrealistic and that's unrewarding to people who actually have skill in the game. Rage cries on realism would increase if this was implemented. Strategy is already present in this game, but best not to go to the extreme of what you're asking.


Typical comment....."uuhhh I want to show how good I am" *looking at my e-pen*
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Joker86 on March 23, 2012, 02:18:18 am
Unrealistic and that's unrewarding to people who actually have skill in the game.

I think the definition of skill in a game with several very different classes fighting each other in two teams goes far beyond just knowing how to block manually. In fact, it's only unrewarding for those who are good dueller, but bad teamplayers. Which would be completely justified in my eyes. You can NEVER win a map on your own, you rely on your teammates, if you want it or not. Completely ignoring them and playing like an autist should be punished.

Rage cries on realism would increase if this was implemented. Strategy is already present in this game, but best not to go to the extreme of what you're asking.

I don't see where this is unrealistic. If anything, it improves realism, because most people tend to try to survive a battle, instead of launching suicide charges and going rambo mode.

Less combat focused and therefore more boring.

I think the complete opposite of "less combat focused". It would be a shitload of fun to watch both teams trying to get an advantage over each other. And mind you, it's LESS combat focused, not "not combat focused at all".
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: POOPHAMMER on March 23, 2012, 02:31:47 am
Well I guess it is my turn to write a really long post about something

I am going to sit here and type a whole bunch of shit, I do not care if you read it or not. I am letting you know now that this post does not contain anything that will contribute to this conversation whatsoever. I have just really felt left out to be honest, I always see these long ass posts I am never going to read about crap in cRPG, and I wanted a post that somewhat resembles one of the posts I fly over.

I really do not know why I am typing all of this, I am actually pretty bored on a Thursday night, got done catching up on all of my television and what not, finished dinner, even went out for a nice stroll in the night time seeing as how the weather has been warming up in these parts, which is cool I suppose, but I am more of a fan of the cold than warm, I get the feeling summer is going to really suck ass.

I might work on vacuuming out my fish tank later, it has been looking pretty gross this week. I think the reason we have lost 2 fish in the last few weeks was due to a bacterial infection from lack of care, but oh well I guess thats how you learn. We still have a pretty good assortment of fish, might even go out to pick up some more this weekend. If anyone has any idea what we should get let me know, we own a 55 gallon freshwater tank.

In closing, I guess I might play some cRPG in a little bit, or may even find another game to play. I have been playing a lot of Blacklight: Retribution, a free to play first person shooter with pretty nice graphics and decent gameplay, I guess people who like COD styled games will like it. I bet you guys stopped reading this post a few sentences in.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Zisa on March 23, 2012, 02:50:37 am
(click to show/hide)

You are firmly in the RTS camp then.

I said my favourite food was cav, but I know I am not alone in constantly looking for opportunities to help a team mate. I am also pretty sure the team hits I receive and give are really failed attempts to help for the most part. It is not like educating children (you deserve to be called a pompous windbag for that, though the label kindergarten mode is often justified) - people either play with their heads up their ass or start to pay attention. Or they are drunk. Trying to add artifical methods of promoting team play is akin to pandering to the stupidest players ever, and not required, as I see plenty of good team play as it is. You don't really want multiplayer, you want bots to follow your commands.

(By the way, one of the funnier but constant irritants is rushing to an outnumbered team mate - and they die just before you get there.)

You are indeed part of the problem, worse thing is, you do not see it. 'More of a strategy game' is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole - it's the wrong tool for the job and the materials at hand. So maybe you'd fit right in with people determined to make the game shittier from an action viewpoint (even as merely an unfortunate biproduct of some mad quest to make things more strategic - but who cares right), which is what warband is - an action game.

The big phallacy some are under the influence of, is 'twitch is inferior' and a desire to equate slow play with cerebral play, possibly stemming from a defeat. Can't beat it first try? Heck nerf it!

EDIT: +1 to POOPHAMMER. Try a plecostamus (spelling?) they look like small brown long stingrays and eat a lot of the shit in the tank - I still recommend frequent cleaning. Also wave your fingers at them once in a while - they like that.

EDIT 2:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plecostomus
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Adamar on March 23, 2012, 02:53:03 am
Remove mauls, at least poophammer will have some time to clean his fishboul.

I also agree with the idea to force 10 units of unstacking weight on everyone. Put an end to naked perverts and fake peasants.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: POOPHAMMER on March 23, 2012, 03:01:31 am
EDIT: +1 to POOPHAMMER. Try a plecostamus (spelling?) they look like small brown long stingrays and eat a lot of the shit in the tank - I still recommend frequent cleaning. Also wave your fingers at them once in a while - they like that.

EDIT 2:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plecostomus

I have two plecos, male and female, both fully grown!

BONUS: Pic of the plecos

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Oberyn on March 23, 2012, 03:07:03 am

The big phallacy

lolol
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Grumbs on March 23, 2012, 03:31:28 am
Main source of rage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

People try to blame stuff for dying; OP weapon, OP class, dumbass team, underlevelled, whatever. Anything to deflect blame from yourself and save the ego :D

That doesn't mean there isn't some OP stuff, imbalances or whatever, but 9/10 people who rage regularly will always look for an excuse rather than look at their own game for ways to improve
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Count_Adhamar on March 23, 2012, 03:33:53 am
Typical comment....."uuhhh I want to show how good I am" *looking at my e-pen*

I take it you're someone with no skill. Also you're going off the point, I like realism in a game, whereas it seems you don't.

I think the definition of skill in a game with several very different classes fighting each other in two teams goes far beyond just knowing how to block manually.

Yeah, obviously. I never said skill is solely defined on a persons ability to manual block.

You can NEVER win a map on your own

I beg to differ. But yes I support teamwork.

I don't see where this is unrealistic. If anything, it improves realism, because most people tend to try to survive a battle, instead of launching suicide charges and going rambo mode.

It's unrealistic as in real life it would be "who's got the better reflexes" that would win the 1v1 majority of the time, if you disagree then clearly detail to me the characteristic that would bring victory in a 1v1 if it is not the reflexes of a player. There is more then just having fast reflexes (like tactics) but you mentioning that this should not be a factor to obtaining victory is stupid.

I think the complete opposite of "less combat focused". It would be a shitload of fun to watch both teams trying to get an advantage over each other. And mind you, it's LESS combat focused, not "not combat focused at all".

Holding certain points of the map for a set amount of time to win instead of killing the enemy as you would do in real life, does not make it more "fun to watch" as you'll just be watching each team camp the points on the map to claim victory rather than engaging the enemy for victory, how's that an improvement in realism? After all this game is based on medieval combat, what you're suggesting would minimize the direct combat in the game. Yes you need strategy to win a battle but introducing a new game type to hold and capture points for a certain amount of time and replace the battle game type as the default is not needed.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Count_Adhamar on March 23, 2012, 03:45:25 am
which is what warband is - an action game.

Action, RPG ftw!
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: isatis on March 23, 2012, 03:53:34 am

From a multiplayer 'action' viewpoint, it's one of the stupidest things ever. Seriously, most of the time I feel we may as well have that guy on the flying carpet shooting fireballs from the sky.



read all like a boss

and that make me lol

Al_Adin is gameplay element, like god, wind, or firerain.
Don't involve this guy if you want to be taken serisously!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on March 23, 2012, 03:56:29 am
I've got more poop to say but I'm going to limit it to the following comment for now (I agree with most of it Zisa 100% on the agi whoredom, its really gone to the shit house).

Did some practice against the Great Maul and was able to chamber it somewhere around 90% of the time. Holding a block up was about 50/50.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Zisa on March 23, 2012, 04:28:25 am
(click to show/hide)
I am fully aware some wont like 'my' solution.
Speed up melee.
Get rid of these added delays to swings as this gives cav too much of an advantage, never mind slowing combat to the pace of a slow square dance.
Run speed. The advantage of athletics is far too slight and all too often nullified by terrain.
I'm not sure there is enough of a penalty for armor and run speeds - something to consider but notimplement just yet.
Weapon speed - make WM mean something other then a cosmetic addition to the character sheet.
De nerf lance radius - I might want to break out the cav alt and have split second tilts with other cav - not split minute. This will likely increase the number of cav that will charge at you instead of your rear.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Materia on March 23, 2012, 09:30:15 am
Congrats on reading this far, if you didn't AND post tl:dr I am putting you on my list.

 :)
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Joker86 on March 23, 2012, 09:45:41 am
I take it you're someone with no skill. Also you're going off the point, I like realism in a game, whereas it seems you don't.

I do. But not for the sake of gameplay or balance.

Yeah, obviously. I never said skill is solely defined on a persons ability to manual block.

Manual blocking was only a representative choice which stands for everything that is related to mere controls and reflexes. I think the knowledge of which way to run, when to defend and when to attack, and some kind of "discipline", like not seperating in the middle of the fight to kill a single stray cat somewhere off the map, never mind how easy the target looks, those things should be equally important. (Don't know if you agree on that, too)



It's unrealistic as in real life it would be "who's got the better reflexes" that would win the 1v1 majority of the time, if you disagree then clearly detail to me the characteristic that would bring victory in a 1v1 if it is not the reflexes of a player. There is more then just having fast reflexes (like tactics) but you mentioning that this should not be a factor to obtaining victory is stupid.

A battle is not 1vs1, that's my point. A cRPG battle is not just an accumulation of several, simultaneous duels. That's what I call the macro game, and what you seem to ignore completely. In my eyes bad skills and good tactics should win over good skills and bad tactics, otherwise tactics wouldn't have an impact at all. Btw. tactics is learned much easier than skill, so there should be no big problem.

Holding certain points of the map for a set amount of time to win instead of killing the enemy as you would do in real life, does not make it more "fun to watch" as you'll just be watching each team camp the points on the map to claim victory rather than engaging the enemy for victory, how's that an improvement in realism? After all this game is based on medieval combat, what you're suggesting would minimize the direct combat in the game. Yes you need strategy to win a battle but introducing a new game type to hold and capture points for a certain amount of time and replace the battle game type as the default is not needed.

Well, not if you have less flags then the enemy and try to take some more. People would form "assault squads" and try to coordinate where to attack, and the enemy would try to move reinforcements to the attacked flag and so on, which is definitely more interesting than the current two blobs moving towards each other and then seeing who's more lucky in melee.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Logen on March 23, 2012, 10:00:20 am
It's unrealistic as in real life it would be "who's got the better reflexes" that would win the 1v1 majority of the time
No, not really. Having good reflexes always helps, but no.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 23, 2012, 02:36:44 pm
I take it you're someone with no skill. Also you're going off the point, I like realism in a game, whereas it seems you don't.


You missed the point my friend. Joker spoke about more teamplay when you came around saying it is unrewarding for those with skill.
So it isn't a reward that your team wins cause the players with skill work in a team instead of alone?
I think you are just one of the poor bastards who always try to be somewhere ontop of the scoreboard, no matter your team wins or loses.
Really sorry for you.

Btw, I'm skilled and I've been ontop of scoreboards often enough and I can still be there, but I would also love to see some more teamplay instead of all these guys running around alone trying to get everyone into a duel :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: SixThumbs on March 23, 2012, 03:36:47 pm
I actually have the team's best interest at heart when I decide to run off alone behind the enemy line. Most of the time it doesn't work out so well for my character but it usually results in thinning out the enemy numbers and causing a good amount of "aggro" so the rest of the team isn't met with as much resistance.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 23, 2012, 04:15:35 pm
Quote
Face it, here is a class of character with the ability to never get within range of the enemy while inflicting damage

They are within ranged.  Crossbows and Archers are a class that you can play in warband (spoiler: arrows and bolts can hit horses).  Not to mention horse archers and horse crossbows can counter horse archers...

Horse archers (or xbows) are THE BEST anti-cav in my opinion, they can essentially cut off areas of the map from cav (unless they want to risk getting their horsey shot to shit).  Ground archers do a better job of this, but only if they have some decent concentration (a few archers), the only issue is that they aren't mobile as if they were on a horse.

Can't say I really disagree with much else, but don't see the point of the thread either :P
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Joker86 on March 23, 2012, 06:32:05 pm
It is not like educating children (you deserve to be called a pompous windbag for that, though the label kindergarten mode is often justified) - people either play with their heads up their ass or start to pay attention.

The mechanics are the same, I don't say they are children. (Innocent children don't deserve to be compared to average cRPG players  :lol: ). People tend to create habits, so it is important to influence it at the point when you can do it the best: at the very beginning!

I am an old S.T.A.L.K.E.R.-fanboy, and you know there are a lot of mods out for the game. One mod, the AMK Soljanka (improved German version of AMK mod) had the description of being very hard, unfair and realistic. That's why I was constantly sneaking around all the time, even before I met my first enemy. The mere description of the mod already made me play it the most resonable way: carefully! There are other mods out there, with other descriptions, and I play them more like action shooters. Without those descriptions, that influenced my expectations and my behaviour, I would have played the mods the wrong way perhaps. I would play the AMK mod like an ordinary shooter, complaining how difficult it is and how I have to quicksave and load all the time, and never even experiencing the difference they implemented concerning the stealth system.

Same thing with cRPG. If you don't tell the players how things that are not directly related to attacking enemy players still can influence your performance, many players won't even realize the full range and depth of the game.

Trying to add artifical methods of promoting team play is akin to pandering to the stupidest players ever, and not required, as I see plenty of good team play as it is.

I do not. Most of the time I play pikeman, although I initially planned to go poleaxe. But the domination of cavalry on the servers forces me to use the pike most of the time. What I do is trying to protect my team from cavalry. And I fail miserably.

I just recommend you to create a STF-pikeman and dedicate yourself to protecting your team from cavalry. You gameplay will consist of watching teammates in some distance running straight forward and getting lanced from behind or even from the front, without a single enemy nearby who could have counted as distraction. Dying such a death is pure stupidity for me, and the amount of such deaths I see each round is WAY too much that I could say there is enough good teamplay. And this is only one of several examples.


You don't really want multiplayer, you want bots to follow your commands.

Who says I want to give the commands? Usually I am really happy if someone tries to offer some lead, and I always write into chat that I will follow the command, in the hope of motivating others to do so as well. I think everyone following a bad plan is still much better than everyone following his own plan.

You are indeed part of the problem, worse thing is, you do not see it. 'More of a strategy game' is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole - it's the wrong tool for the job and the materials at hand. So maybe you'd fit right in with people determined to make the game shittier from an action viewpoint (even as merely an unfortunate biproduct of some mad quest to make things more strategic - but who cares right), which is what warband is - an action game.

The big phallacy some are under the influence of, is 'twitch is inferior' and a desire to equate slow play with cerebral play, possibly stemming from a defeat. Can't beat it first try? Heck nerf it!

Could you elaborate this part a bit? I see only assertions, no explanations or reasonings.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Kafein on March 23, 2012, 06:45:32 pm
Could you elaborate this part a bit? I see only assertions, no explanations or reasonings.

Zisa is displaying his love for twitch gameplay and tries to convince someone that everybody else has pretty much the same tastes.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Riddaren on March 23, 2012, 07:31:18 pm
Nighttime
Fog
Hilly maps
heavy detailed maps
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Adamar on March 23, 2012, 08:14:43 pm
We need more random plains, to promote teamplay.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Kafein on March 23, 2012, 08:18:05 pm
Nighttime
Fog
Hilly maps
heavy detailed maps

This.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: MR_FISTA on March 23, 2012, 10:32:36 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


But in all seriousness I do agree with most of the comments.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Zisa on March 23, 2012, 11:51:49 pm
Possible solutions part 2:

Gold has never and will never be a useful factor in 'balance'. Upkeep really is there to slow new players - kind of a good thing though if they learn a bit before donning the heavy arse armor.

Balancing around strategus - umm, no. Keep the core game at the forefront and make strategus adapt - strategus is RISK, Warband is action. Doing it the backassward way is hurtful to us action junkies.

Elaboration for Joker...
The game is a series of decisions. For some reason, after a wrong decision some players may feel the need to post about a nerf or complain that the game is too fast, hence why we are here. It is downright amusing when the slow of thinking decide the game is too fast because they are unable or unwilling to improve, and usually there is some derision about 'twitch' gaming, the implication that emailing advanced notice of an attack would somehow make the game 'smarter'.

Other people (i.e. people who want to play rather then change the game) say 'shit I died' to themselves, then something like 'hmm, what did I do wrong, how can I prevent that in the future' and continue playing.

It's like saying chess is better then tennis, or football (american not that sissy eu stuff), equating a slowness of action with a greatness of thought.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Kafein on March 24, 2012, 01:27:55 am
Possible solutions part 2:

Gold has never and will never be a useful factor in 'balance'. Upkeep really is there to slow new players - kind of a good thing though if they learn a bit before donning the heavy arse armor.

Balancing around strategus - umm, no. Keep the core game at the forefront and make strategus adapt - strategus is RISK, Warband is action. Doing it the backassward way is hurtful to us action junkies.

Elaboration for Joker...
The game is a series of decisions. For some reason, after a wrong decision some players may feel the need to post about a nerf or complain that the game is too fast, hence why we are here. It is downright amusing when the slow of thinking decide the game is too fast because they are unable or unwilling to improve, and usually there is some derision about 'twitch' gaming, the implication that emailing advanced notice of an attack would somehow make the game 'smarter'.

Other people (i.e. people who want to play rather then change the game) say 'shit I died' to themselves, then something like 'hmm, what did I do wrong, how can I prevent that in the future' and continue playing.

It's like saying chess is better then tennis, or football (american not that sissy eu stuff), equating a slowness of action with a greatness of thought.

A regular chess game is much faster than a tennis or footall match, you know...

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Now, it's not because the game asks you to make fast decisions that it is more interesting to play. You should stop trying to impose your views on that. I think players like the current speed of the game, some want it faster, some want it slower.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Zisa on March 24, 2012, 03:54:21 am
A regular chess game is much faster than a tennis or footall match, you know...

<snip>

Now, it's not because the game asks you to make fast decisions that it is more interesting to play. You should stop trying to impose your views on that. I think players like the current speed of the game, some want it faster, some want it slower.
Thanks for your opinion.

A regular chess game is also turn based, there is no "decide now" involved in a continually changing environment. A faster pace is better suited to a melee combat based game. This continual erosion of the speed of the game - I suppose you would like to watch underwater boxing as well?

It is too slow, agree with me or not.

Defensive play has become more of the norm. Lets see if I can say this right...
Two enemies meet in the field.
One is agressive the other more defensive, a counter puncher, if you will.
Who has the advantage, and is this advantage 'too much' or unrealistic?
It's a game, but the current speed of melee discourages taking chances. Or should I say, unfairly rewards conservative play.

It comes back to justificatioins for certain mechanics...
Crush Through was originally intended to give turtles (usually shielders) something to worry about. Unfortunately, it is a somewhat viable alternative now to uselessly trying to feint or get through the blocks of some non shielding blocker. It was always tricky to get around a good blocker but it can be an exercise of actual minutes now. I get CT'd lately I don't think 'cheap move' I think 'well it was bound to happen because they made swings so slow' and assume the CT-er wanted a change from the turn based paradigm.
I dunno, do any decent blockers feel it is in anyway difficult to turtle with manual blocking?

Perhaps that it is working as intended, forcing better team play as it were by discouraging heroes - screw you players who want to play a heroic melee combat game. It is slow enough now that you have time to regret a poor choice before you die and suffer the inane hell of death chat - I've even seen people having a pointless argument in regular chat while fighting - are they that unchallenged by the game or it's speed? Also, the slower pace magnifies mistakes in a way - opponents have a larger window of opportunity to capitalize on it, without actually 'doing' anything on their part - again, perhaps as intended.

Hmm wonder if weapon stun is still in here, might have to try and find out, I always hated that too. I'll also have to pick up a polearm once in a while and see if 1 wpf is still enough for a melee weapon.

I'll never stop trying to impose my view on this game, one day something good might happen.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Joker86 on March 26, 2012, 12:31:49 am
Elaboration for Joker...
The game is a series of decisions. For some reason, after a wrong decision some players may feel the need to post about a nerf or complain that the game is too fast, hence why we are here. It is downright amusing when the slow of thinking decide the game is too fast because they are unable or unwilling to improve, and usually there is some derision about 'twitch' gaming, the implication that emailing advanced notice of an attack would somehow make the game 'smarter'.

Other people (i.e. people who want to play rather then change the game) say 'shit I died' to themselves, then something like 'hmm, what did I do wrong, how can I prevent that in the future' and continue playing.

It's like saying chess is better then tennis, or football (american not that sissy eu stuff), equating a slowness of action with a greatness of thought.


If you really want to say what I think I understood, then you completely missed the point.

I understood you want to say: "People who die in melee don't blame their missing skills for it, they blame either the other classes for being unbalanced and whine about it on the forum, or they blame the game of being too twtich-based, not allowing them to "think" properly about the next action they want to perform, for example which block or attack to make next.

In my posts above I said too many players are focused too much on their personal micro-game, not taking notice of the big macro-game. This is completely unrelated to any particular class balancing like melee speed for infantry. Instead I get to hear that I would be part of the problem.

Again: I don't think that "skills" in their initial meaning of reflexes and muscle memory should decide solely who will win a fight. I think using the brain should also have some impact. BUT: I don't think that using the brain is to equate with slowing down melee, to have more time to "think" about what you do, blocking or attacking and what direction and similar. It is about which way to go on the map, about sticking to the right people and so on. THIS is what I am complaining about, that kills the balance, because that "fail" and "lemming" behaviour doesn't allow the people on the servers to experience the class balance under equal conditions. It's like making a car race ( = battle) to see which car ( = class) is better, but in one car you put an experienced race driver ( = a player who plays his class most effectively), in the second car you put a random taxi driver ( = a player who doesn't get everything out of his class).

And usually it turns out that it's the infantry players who don't use 100% of the potential of their class, because of the simple reason that their class requires more teamplay than other other classes. Ranged and cavalry don't rely so much on others, and it's just in the nature of their classes that you do most things right by default. Infantry is somewhat different, it needs coordination, planning, discipline and the different sub-classes like shielders, two handers and pikemen need to complement each other, to maximize their effectivity.

That's the basic problem of cRPG in my humble opinion. The most common and basic class relies most on teamwork. But because teamwork is treated more like an oprhan in cRPG, you have those massive problems of balancing archers and cavalry according to infantry. It has nothing to do with melee speed.

In fact I would leave it as it is. Less twitched based gameplay means that personal skill matters less, and thus not only teamwork would become more vital, you would also prevent certain, very skilled players of dominating the servers. Already now you got players with really awesome skills and according k/d-ratios, if you would lower the ability of average players to block their hits (like increasing melee speed would mean) you would effectively cut the community into two classes, the killers and the victims. I like the idea that even the best fighter has to rely on cover from his teammates to not simply get raped by a few enemy low tier infantrymen. THis doesn't make it less of an action game, your fighting skills still will influence your success most.
Title: Re: Possible root cause(s) of rage in cRPG and Warband. (long)
Post by: Kafein on March 26, 2012, 03:19:39 pm
Thanks for your opinion.

A regular chess game is also turn based, there is no "decide now" involved in a continually changing environment. A faster pace is better suited to a melee combat based game. This continual erosion of the speed of the game - I suppose you would like to watch underwater boxing as well?

It is too slow, agree with me or not.

Defensive play has become more of the norm. Lets see if I can say this right...
Two enemies meet in the field.
One is agressive the other more defensive, a counter puncher, if you will.
Who has the advantage, and is this advantage 'too much' or unrealistic?
It's a game, but the current speed of melee discourages taking chances. Or should I say, unfairly rewards conservative play.

It comes back to justificatioins for certain mechanics...
Crush Through was originally intended to give turtles (usually shielders) something to worry about. Unfortunately, it is a somewhat viable alternative now to uselessly trying to feint or get through the blocks of some non shielding blocker. It was always tricky to get around a good blocker but it can be an exercise of actual minutes now. I get CT'd lately I don't think 'cheap move' I think 'well it was bound to happen because they made swings so slow' and assume the CT-er wanted a change from the turn based paradigm.
I dunno, do any decent blockers feel it is in anyway difficult to turtle with manual blocking?

Perhaps that it is working as intended, forcing better team play as it were by discouraging heroes - screw you players who want to play a heroic melee combat game. It is slow enough now that you have time to regret a poor choice before you die and suffer the inane hell of death chat - I've even seen people having a pointless argument in regular chat while fighting - are they that unchallenged by the game or it's speed? Also, the slower pace magnifies mistakes in a way - opponents have a larger window of opportunity to capitalize on it, without actually 'doing' anything on their part - again, perhaps as intended.

Hmm wonder if weapon stun is still in here, might have to try and find out, I always hated that too. I'll also have to pick up a polearm once in a while and see if 1 wpf is still enough for a melee weapon.

I'll never stop trying to impose my view on this game, one day something good might happen.

I'm not against speeding up the game, but there are certain things that should be looked at before. Removing hiltslashing entirely (it is still possible with polearms). Preventing spam to be anywhere close to effective (1h left swing mainly). Balancing humans and horses in terms of agility and maneuver (for example addind a fixed 10 weight to everybody). After all of this is done (and maybe some other things I forgot), speed up the game as a whole. It will be different and more twitch based, yet without suffering from the aforementioned issues.

Let us not throw away the balance by making what is fast, even faster. Balance things and speed up everything instead.