cRPG

Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: Garem on March 07, 2012, 08:29:37 pm

Title: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Garem on March 07, 2012, 08:29:37 pm
Howdy.

As many, most, or hopefully all of you are aware, there's a big new push being made by the Invisible Children movement to end the LRA's tyranny in Sudan, the DRC, and Central African Republic. Shit's cray.

So there was the Invisible Children movement. Now there's this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4MnpzG5Sqc

It's quite good, well worth 30 minutes.

Of course, nothing is perfect. There have been a lot of criticisms of the Invisible Children. As the eternal cynic, I always question the world around me. Invisible Children did not get a pass.

So then there was this:
http://visiblechildren.tumblr.com/

Mr. Oysten has a lot of his facts right, too, to back up his opinions. However, as Mr. Oysten says, it's not so simple.

So I beg to differ. None of Oysten's arguments presented hold much weight with me. Granted, I'm well within the "done my research" group, and it's definitely good to be critical and make sure progress is done the right way. It sucks, no doubt, but military intervention gets things done in one of two ways: (1) if Kony realizes that the free world is out to get him, we can buy him out or coerce him (see America's success in forcing Sudan to create South Sudan), or (2) he will only go down with a fight and that's just what it's going to take. EITHER way, you need a strong showing of force or diplomacy won't matter. If the big guns don't show up, Kony will keep breaking promises because he knows he can.

A quick sidebar on personal experience that I'm not going to get in-depth explaining: I have been to Africa, work with an African relief program, and I have African friends in Africa. Americans are always very critical on one issue- why spend money GOING there? Can't we just send the airfare money on things to help these people? There's a long answer, but the short answer is: NO NO NO. Our African friends and co-workers have specifically asked us to not to do so. Back to the point...

The article itself begins with a series of misleading statements about the finances. Only X amount goes to direct donations, but is that the point of Invisible Children? To donate money, or build playgrounds, or even finance a war against one of, if not THE most despicable man on the planet? Nope. It's to make movies, raises awareness. Both of those require people and supplies. Hell, if anything, I wish they'd spend more of that money on the key mission: remind the free world, the wealthy world, that they have the power to bring peace to our African brothers and sisters.

On the problems with the Ugandan army, I actually totally agree. I'd be much happier with direct uni- or multi-lateral intervention. And then we need to make the right decisions when Kony is gone, not create another 1980s Afghanistan (Charlie Wilson's War's final scene, anyone?).

But we aren't there yet because people don't know and they don't care.

Lastly, I really, really hate his "White Man's Burden" comparison. This is nothing like colonialism, or the sophistication of a "lesser species"... for God's sake, it's about creating peace and ending the LRA's reign, not changing them as a people. If anything, it's racist to say "it's a black/African problem, but not our problem" because it only perpetuates the idea of races to begin with, an inherently racist belief.

At the end of the day, Mr. Oysten is a delayer of the worst kind. He's the sit-back, do-nothing, wait-for-an-opportunity to arise. 26 years have gone by. What the hell are we waiting for, Kony to get sick? The time to fix this wreck was decades ago. Diplomacy has been tried, it failed. Small-scale American efforts have failed. The Ugandans and the (South) Sudanese have failed, maybe/probably even made things worse. So yes, I'm absolutely going to support an imperfect answer above no answer at all. 26 YEARS! That's nuts.

-That's- the hard pill to swallow. And it's really going to suck, because as everyone knows, we're probably going to have to harm or kill children. Lots of them. That's the world we live in though, because we've neglected for decades to keep it from getting so bad. And if we delay further, it's only going to get worse. KONY 2012 is a step in the right direction, Oyston is dead wrong, and things are only going to get worse in the long-term by doing nothing about it.

Agree? Disagree?

Either way, that's totally fine. Just talk about it. Ask your friends and family about it. I don't mean to be crass or exaggerate. But let's be honestly, lives are on the line. Maybe. So talk about it. On the internet, real life, or wherever. Be smart about it, look at both sides.

In the end, let's bring Kony to justice. Let's see him, preferably alive, before the ICC for his crimes.

-Garem of Fallen
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: SixThumbs on March 07, 2012, 09:31:57 pm
http://ilto.wordpress.com/2006/11/02/the-visible-problem-with-invisible-children/
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 07, 2012, 10:11:42 pm
My big critique with this whole movement is that not everyone has 30 minutes to learn about a new humanitarian cause.

Much like large papers (and really any formal writing) follows a structure which gives us a topic sentence or opening paragraph, it would be nice if things like this gave you a 2 minutes video explaining the issues and overview, and then a 30 minute video to learn more in depth about it.

The presentation is certainly lacking and will hurt the overall cause.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Garem on March 08, 2012, 08:10:19 am
@ SixThumbs

zOMG I can post a wall of text too and make a point. This response came out today.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/www.invisiblechildren.com/critiques.html

I don't feel like dragging around in the mud, though. I just want people to know what's going on, and clearly you feel the same. That's why you posted your link. My personal response and the response from IC itself do a pretty good job of laying out the reasons why that perspective presented is just dead wrong. Even the simple point, that this isn't a Ugandan issue but one covering a large swathe of central Africa, seems to be lost in both of the critiques we've posted. They mean well, but they don't understand the problem and admit to having no solution.

Maybe I'm wrong, of course! Do the research. Find out. Even if I am dead wrong, at least we've got a good start on finding out what's up.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 08, 2012, 08:41:09 am
http://seet.weebly.com/1/post/2012/03/concerning-kony-2012.html
yeah
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: [ptx] on March 08, 2012, 09:45:11 am
http://seet.weebly.com/1/post/2012/03/concerning-kony-2012.html
yeah
Millions of lives? I read that LRA has a strength of less than 3000.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Berplars on March 08, 2012, 10:30:57 am
Killing a criminal Warlord in Africa will do absolutely nothing regarding the whole situation of rebel armies and corrupt coverment.

There are so many organistaions that are helping africa in a meaningfull way without promoting a single "warlord". Even if he would be killed their would sure be either a another organisation that picks the Place of the LRA, or simply another men.

Also this Video is so super overemotional it really looks like a propaganda video from the old days, litte facts much emotion. The first 5 minutes looked like a commercial for facebook and holding your own kid in the camera is imho the worst style of promoting a serious video. It looks alot like a selfpromotion video.

Not defending the Kony guy, but the critical blogs overviews have a much more valid point, then the video.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Overdriven on March 08, 2012, 11:19:11 am
Also this Video is so super overemotional it really looks like a propaganda video from the old days, litte facts much emotion. The first 5 minutes looked like a commercial for facebook and holding your own kid in the camera is imho the worst style of promoting a serious video. It looks alot like a selfpromotion video.

It's meant to drum up awareness and support. And it works. It doesn't need solid facts...the point is to get people involved. And from that aspect it has done fantastically well.

It's the same reason that charities use pictures of starving children in Africa crying, people sifting through rubbish in slums and some such in ads to get donations. When in fact the reality usually isn't quite as brutal, and the people depicted actually find it demeaning and patronising to be shown that way.

Fact is, that when it comes to military intervention, the Western world is sorely lacking in any care for most of Africa. In the Ugandan genocide, or Mugabe's ruination of Zimbabwe or any other many examples the West simply did not care enough to get properly involved. Yet when it comes to Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and countries where there is a vested interest, they will jump at the chance.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Darkkarma on March 08, 2012, 11:28:10 am
Kony is for pussies.

It's all about Liberia man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whGLJk-qagE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whGLJk-qagE)
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Berplars on March 08, 2012, 11:35:40 am
Sticking posters around different cities in the world is helping africa a damn shit. Facebook Sharing the "OMG THIZ MONY SO BAD !!!! STOP HIM THAN ALL GOOOD !!!!" stuff doesn´t make a difference for africa. And also why now? Just because of Facebook being this popular?

Africa is a problem on its own, you can´t demonstrate against something like that, nothing will change the good intetion of this video will be forgotten rather sooner then later. And if even if Kony is killed the attention will be gone.

What is probably pissing me off the most is, that the majority of the support only comes if you give them some sort of Emotional stuff. Most of them never cared about africa before nor will after this action. And the organistation doesn´t seem to be more honorable than other who are helping africa since a longer time in a way more efficient way.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Overdriven on March 08, 2012, 11:43:54 am
Sticking posters around different cities in the world is helping africa a damn shit. Facebook Sharing the "OMG THIZ MONY SO BAD !!!! STOP HIM THAN ALL GOOOD !!!!" stuff doesn´t make a difference for africa. And also why now? Just because of Facebook being this popular?

Africa is a problem on its own, you can´t demonstrate against something like that, nothing will change the good intetion of this video will be forgotten rather sooner then later. And if even if Kony is killed the attention will be gone.

What is probably pissing me off the most is, that the majority of the support only comes if you give them some sort of Emotional stuff. Most of them never cared about africa before nor will after this action. And the organistation doesn´t seem to be more honorable than other who are helping africa since a longer time in a way more efficient way.

Why now? Yeah because Facebook has given an unprecedented level of communication. Using two websites: Facebook and Youtube. You can create a ridiculous amount of awareness for something in a very short space of time. That kind of awareness would be impossible to drum up by simply going on the street, or even ads on tv. And the first thing charities ect need to be effective is awareness. Without awareness people don't give a shit and you'll get no support. With some support from the public, Governmental organisations may just begin to listen to you.

That's the problem that any charity has always had. People aren't interested. Full stop. Unless you make something like this which appeals heavily to the emotions or some such, and you effectively guilt people into doing something/donating or whatever, then very little money or support comes through. It sucks that they have to do it this way, particularly because as I mentioned, often the people in these places hate being depicted this way, but unfortunately it's often the only way to get any level of support.

It's not about honour. There are many charities that are long term and put a lot of effort into staying in an area and helping, rather than delivering a quick fix and then getting the hell out (like a lot of NGO's). But fact is that any level of support that this video can drum up will ultimately benefit other charities as well. If even a few people do a little research and look upon many of the charities that do fantastic work, then it will have helped.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Wookimonsta on March 08, 2012, 01:15:31 pm
Well, finally someone takes care of orphans in africa, and people call him the bad guy...
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: SixThumbs on March 08, 2012, 04:35:12 pm
Facebook and Youtube seem all nice and well when it comes to "awareness" but hey:

"Gets hundreds of thousands of people to throw money, emotions, 'support' and 'awareness' around"

"*grab grab grab grab grab*"

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/26/world/africa/uganda-welcomes-oil-but-fears-graft-it-attracts.html?_r=1
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: B3RS3RK on March 08, 2012, 04:54:00 pm
Yeah, mate , show me where uganda even is in africa on a map before you brag about how political commited you are with Children soldiers in uganda and shit.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Garem on March 08, 2012, 06:58:57 pm
@ Berserk.

This is my immediate response, without looking at a map or any other resource. Uganda is in central Africa, bordering Rwanda, Kenya, the Central African Republic, the Democratic Republic of Congo and probably a few more. There are two Congos. Congo (smaller) and the Democratic Republic of Congo (virtually no government, massive country). They're usually referred to as Congo-Kinshasa and Congo-Whatevertheothercapitalis.

Now, my personal experiences mentioned above are in Kenya- I've circled over a few hundred miles around the mountain there, name eluding me (again, not looking at a map, just typing an immediate answer). I went northeast, counterclockwise towards Meru, one of the 5 largest cities. I ended up in Maua, Kenya- which means "flower" in Swahili, but it is anything but a flower. I worked with the local hospital and AIDS orphans, who are neglected by their communities because of poverty and social reasons that I won't get into. I also spent some time in Meru by working with a good friend named John Mwalimu who taught about a dozen AIDS orphans how to increase their agricultural productivity to help feed them and their siblings, and maybe even make a little extra money by selling it to pay for their little brothers' and sisters' school supplies. At least, the lucky ones with enough land and not too many mouths can afford to.

This was before continuing my counterclockwise journey, visiting Samburu National Reserve. If you were my friend on Steam, you'd notice that it's an elephant- one that I saw there. Samburu is famous for a lioness that adopted a baby gazelle whose mother had abandoned it. Pretty interesting story- wikipedia it sometime.

We returned to Nairobi around the other side of the mountain, but it was hidden in the clouds. I digress, back to greater African geography.

South of Kenya is Tanzania, once controlled by Julius Nyerere, a good man and a decent leader in very hard times who modeled socialism to fit the local customs; it didn't work out, but it was an interesting experiment. In Kenya, Jomo Kenyatta was the big man of his era and helped bring Kenya out of the waning colonial period in the late 50s, early 60s after the Mau Mau (spelling?) rebellion. North of Kenya is Somalia, on the horn- I met several refugee children in Maua. Very happy children, very curious and talkative. They kicked my ass in soccer. The tensions in Somalia stress the Kenyan economy because of security concerns, not unlike the issue of the LRA in the central region of Africa.

As you start looking west of Somalia, you have the corner where Nigeria dominates the region. It's not a massive country size-wise (although it has a huge population), but its economy fare significantly better because of the natural oil reserves. There's a tiny country consisting of a small island and an equally small mainland claim- it's run by an awful, awful family that makes a killing off of their offshore oil. Can't recall the family, or the country's name.

You've also got Ghana and Cote d'Ivoire west of Nigeria, two relatively stable countries. France is weird about l'Afrique francaphone- they provide a great deal of foreign aid to them in order to protect their cultural legacy. But this also gives them a stake in preserving the French language abroad and comes with a great deal of strings. If any country could be called neo-Colonial, it's the French. But hey, better to go to school and speak French than to not go at all, so it's a weird relationship.

Sierra Leone and a few smaller nations are to the west. Mostly stable, terribly impoverished, not much going on there.

To the north of all of these West African countries are the beginnings of the Saharan countries. Mostly Muslim, some Christians in those countries. This divide leaves the region uneasy, although relatively peaceful for now. Mali and Burkina Faso come to mind, all the way up to Morocco and the Arabic North African countries.

Morocco and Spain have an interesting conflict going on, a disagreement in territorial control over two cities that speak Spanish. The cities consider themselves Spanish, the Spanish consider them Spanish, but the Moroccans consider them Moroccan- and they're probably right, since virtually every other Colonial claim has been relinquished and the map just makes more sense if the cities were Moroccan.

That's a rough verbal map of Africa and a few scraps of interesting history sprinkled in. Would you like me to work my way around the southern nations? I'll admit that I'm less familiar with them, as my studies and advocacy tend to revolve around Kenya and its neighboring countries.

Shall we talk about other interesting African issues?
-FGM?
-AIDS (and American programs specifically)?
-The hopefully-upcoming Malaria vaccine?
-The cold conflict of religions in Africa?
-The failures of so many relief programs by agro-economic devastation in the wake of food donation programs?
-The failure of Western nations to address medical drug problems, often called "The Viagra Problem"?
-The interesting neo-colonialist vibes of Asian, European, and North American interest in the region?
-The permanent infrastructure problems in post-colonial Africa?

Be careful when you're cynical. This isn't a movement supported just by dreamy-eyed little girls wishing on stars for world peace.
The purpose of this movement is to reshape the paradigm of Afro-pessimism that you're partaking in. I'm not going to call it racist, since it could just as well be white or Asian nations that were failing, but your attitudes towards this inevitable failure of action in Africa is just dead fucking wrong.

Do you know what Africans call non-Africans (even black Americans)? Mzungus. It means "dizzy people". It's because Westerners don't understand the fundamental differences in Africa to our own perspectives- we see the world through our own paradigms. There's a common saying in African studies, "Zebras not horses." Zebras are the equines of the continent, but they can't be domesticated. It's a different place than we understand from our own paradigm. But I digress.

Kony 2012 does make a difference, you just don't see it. You never saw the importance of the American AIDS relief grant sent in 2007, either- but it was HUGE. I bet you don't even understand the massive impact American foreign policymakers, former Senator Jack Danforth foremost amongst them, made in CREATING the country we now know as South Sudan. Just because you're utterly ignorant of the changes we can and have been making doesn't mean they aren't being made.

I do not believe for one second that our Western democracies are so defeated and demoralized so as to be incapable of helping change the African world. It's just a matter of changing our attitudes, voicing our concerns, and voting for the right people.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: BlackMilk on March 08, 2012, 07:15:35 pm
"Kony 2012 is a scam. Only 30% of donations went to it last year. Also he ain't in Uganda. Follow blindly where the masses tell you like the sheep you are, morons."

Quoted from youtube :wink:

"Only 30% of donations went to it last year. Also he ain't in Uganda" is this true?
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Garem on March 08, 2012, 07:26:20 pm
"Kony 2012 is a scam. Only 30% of donations went to it last year. Also he ain't in Uganda. Follow blindly where the masses tell you like the sheep you are, morons."

Quoted from youtube :wink:

"Only 30% of donations went to it last year. Also he ain't in Uganda" is this true?

He's floating somewhere in between several countries in central Africa. Probably in the Democratic Republic of Congo, but he could be in the C.A.R.
Why does it matter where he is? Every regional country has a stake in stopping this borderless warlord- especially Uganda, since so many of its native children are still in the LRA's ranks of child soldiers. And in my opinion, it's not just a regional issue anyways, it's a massive human rights concern for the entire world.

Money was spent on the three focus programs of Invisible Children. See here: http://s3.amazonaws.com/www.invisiblechildren.com/critiques.html

Again, it's great to critique, but the critics so far have been rather foolish in applying facts to logic and blurring the lines of fact and opinion.

Addendum: I guess they just say it's a "Uganda" issue for the very reason you posted this comment- it's easier for people who aren't familiar with African issues to think in terms of nations. It's still not wrong, but it doesn't paint the whole picture (for simplicity's sake?).
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: B3RS3RK on March 08, 2012, 07:34:42 pm
My Statement was meant more general for all the people crying about Kony right now.You see it fucking everywhere on Facebook and the net.Most of those people dont even know where Uganda is.

I just cant stand People who are Political commited all of a sudden when something gets more into the light of the media and such, while they dont give a shit or even know about it all the time before :D
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Garem on March 08, 2012, 08:05:25 pm
My Statement was meant more general for all the people crying about Kony right now.You see it fucking everywhere on Facebook and the net.Most of those people dont even know where Uganda is.

I just cant stand People who are Political commited all of a sudden when something gets more into the light of the media and such, while they dont give a shit or even know about it all the time before :D

People are busy. If they don't find out, you know... like through massive Youtube campaigns, how can they care about something they know nothing about?

I'm surely not educated on everything. Hence, I applaud these awareness programs (when they're worth being aware of) and those who are compassionate enough to receive them. Criticizing someone for being ignorant is one thing. Criticizing them for becoming informed and caring seems rather counter-intuitive.

I guess I'm just inclined to condemn a man for being without compassion, not for being belatedly compassionate!

Added:

http://securingrights.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/lets-talk-about-kony/
Great commentary on where this PR campaign should, or maybe must, go. There's a great report that I've just started skimming at the end of the article.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Troyicide on March 08, 2012, 08:37:28 pm
Sticking posters around different cities in the world is helping africa a damn shit. Facebook Sharing the "OMG THIZ MONY SO BAD !!!! STOP HIM THAN ALL GOOOD !!!!" stuff doesn´t make a difference for africa. And also why now? Just because of Facebook being this popular?

Africa is a problem on its own, you can´t demonstrate against something like that, nothing will change the good intetion of this video will be forgotten rather sooner then later. And if even if Kony is killed the attention will be gone.

What is probably pissing me off the most is, that the majority of the support only comes if you give them some sort of Emotional stuff. Most of them never cared about africa before nor will after this action. And the organistation doesn´t seem to be more honorable than other who are helping africa since a longer time in a way more efficient way.

Exfucking-actly.... couldn't agree more. I want to slap the next bitch who says lets make kony famous. So dumb and ignorant.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: naruto_goku_sephiroth_420 on March 08, 2012, 08:38:56 pm
donate money to invisible children to save their company from going bankrupt and make posters to make kony president of usa
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Garem on March 08, 2012, 08:40:20 pm
Troyicide, a perpetual fountain of intelligence and wisdom blossoming into enlightenment.

Speaking of, there's also this. If we can't agree, at least we can all laugh!
http://www.quickmeme.com/Kony/?upcoming
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: wayyyyyne on March 08, 2012, 10:34:23 pm
those are my favourites by far:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://www.imagebanana.com/view/rmqksxy1/1331155144003.jpg)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://www.imagebanana.com/view/lgh6be80/1331155144004.jpg)
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: HarunYahya on March 08, 2012, 11:14:38 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Kafein on March 08, 2012, 11:24:04 pm
As much as I hate emotional propaganda like this and consider it dangerous, I think the issue is real, and deserves attention.

Still, I can't help but to think that a propaganda strategy like this is neutral, and could be used for promoting everything. YMCA became influencial through exactly the same thing. In this case, it is pretty safe to say that Kony dude should be arrested, but sometimes the masses forget about moderation in their judgment, and "good vs evil" messages use this to get downright wrong ideas widely accepted.

Now, a cold and realistic analysis of the situation, of course taking into account the "wrongness" of the acts, might appeal more to extreme rationalists like me, but not to the larger public.


Btw Garem, not a single word about Liberia ?
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: LastKaze on March 08, 2012, 11:58:20 pm
I'm thinking of buying the Action kit, my friend already bought one.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Garem on March 09, 2012, 02:04:47 am
I'm not as familiar with modern problems in Liberia, honestly. I know that they have similar combat zone problems, I just don't know the condition of the situation in 2012 so I would have been speaking about a very serious issue with mere guesses.

Although it was the first country I facepalmed for forgetting when I finally did look at a map. Liberia has an amazingly interesting history. Their capital city looks a lot like the style of old Charleston, South Carolina. Why? Because Liberia was where the masses of former slaves landed when leaving the US after the Civil War, the same workers built both cities. It's also why their flag mirrors our own! Another fun note- Liberia is a major nation for registering cruise liners. Partly because of the flag looking like the US's, but mostly because it's super cheap.

My focus is on West Africa, though. During my college days, because of my work in Kenya starting in 2008 and many of my friends active in STAND (http://standnow.org/), I started learning about what was going on and studying African history with a focus on the late Colonial and post-Colonial Africa. This was all in the context of a political science degree focusing on American law, political philosophy, and International Relations. I'm not a specialist or expert on African issues. Just a student, subject to being wrong or misremembering from time to time!

I kind of feel you, Kafein, on the "emotional propaganda" thing. I've not yet come to settle on the "ends justifying the means" question in general. I'm just a pragmatist- hell, I directly wrote that we should kill children in the OP.

But this might work and cold rationalism certainly won't. So by being rational, the odds are better on doing it the emotionally-driven way, even if it's not the right way. Whatever leaves the world better in the long-run is the way I'm going to go.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Overdriven on March 09, 2012, 12:45:29 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Nessaj on March 10, 2012, 12:56:37 am
This is all to steer young people away from the real issues (elections and the truth about Syria) and everyone is jumping on the bandwagon like lemmings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DO73Ese25Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DO73Ese25Y)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/uganda/9131469/Joseph-Kony-2012-growing-outrage-in-Uganda-over-film.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/uganda/9131469/Joseph-Kony-2012-growing-outrage-in-Uganda-over-film.html)
http://blackstarnews.com/news/135/ARTICLE/8007/2012-03-08.html (http://blackstarnews.com/news/135/ARTICLE/8007/2012-03-08.html)

Notice how this is promoted everywhere on TV, the Internet, all social media, there's a collective push ("forced" via education) at the exact same time from all directions, that speaks to organized propaganda, especially if you look at what is being reported by those who've actually BEEN in Uganda. Someone doesn't want people to pay attention these days.

That said, obviously there are issues in Africa, real issues, identical to those proclaimed to still persist in Uganda.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: djavo on March 10, 2012, 01:38:55 am
I still miss my kony plastation
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: SixThumbs on March 10, 2012, 03:11:46 am
Can anyone else not access this site: www.newvision.co.ug/

I think it's supposed to be an independent news site for Uganda.

Edit: Works now.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Tor! on March 11, 2012, 01:48:11 pm
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Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Oberyn on March 11, 2012, 07:51:35 pm
I don't understand the focus on Uganda considering this guy operates in other countries as well. Well, actually I do understand it, it's about the 5 billion barrels of oil. Why isn't this campaign focused on, say, The DRC? The LRA and the shit they do is not exactly unique in subsaharan guerilla forces. Why try to equate Kony with Uganda? GEE I WONDAH.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Mr. Hannibal on March 11, 2012, 07:58:01 pm
I remember cocks!
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Garem on March 11, 2012, 08:04:42 pm
I don't understand the focus on Uganda considering this guy operates in other countries as well. Well, actually I do understand it, it's about the 5 billion barrels of oil. Why isn't this campaign focused on, say, The DRC? The LRA and the shit they do is not exactly unique in subsaharan guerilla forces. Why try to equate Kony with Uganda? GEE I WONDAH.

Or because Uganda is the only one of the countries being directly effected that has the military capability to effectively fight back?
Or because Uganda was where it all began, where many of the child soldiers came from- it's an army composed largely of kidnapped Ugandan children?
Or because the issue is already so complex that it takes 30 minutes to just inform the viewer of the most basic details, so Uganda was picked because it's the key player?
Or you don't know much about the mineral wealth of the D.R.C. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltan)?

Obviously, the Invisible Children are just pawns in the great games of the OIL BARONS THAT RUN THE WOOOORLD. I hear they also caused 9/11 and forged Obama's birth certificate.

Come on. Make reasonable arguments if you're going to make them at all. Conspiracy theories as an attempt to discredit this movement is lulzy.

Or am I just an Illuminati trying to confuse you all into supporting my New World Order?!
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Oberyn on March 11, 2012, 08:30:11 pm
You're right, it's just a massive coincidence. It's not like there are charity organizations for Somalia, it's not like Ethiopia have been conducting military operations there for years. It's not like the Ugandan army has practically the same track record as the warlords like Kony that they fight. It's not like this is surging at a time when they are just beginning to exploit the 5 billion barrels of petrol that were discovered there about 6 years ago. OF COURSE no one has ever, ever abused humanitarian ideals and organizations for pragmatic, profitable goals.

Maybe if these fuckers didn't spend their entire video basically calling for military intervention, because we have to HELP the poor backwards fuckers to solve their own problems, because they're obviously incapable of doing it on their own (yey neo-white man's burden!). Maybe if the incredibly corrupt Ugandan government wasn't obviously riddled by bribes and promises to foreign oil companies (did you happen to look into that when you were learning the "basic details"? How many Ugandan politicians have been involved in such scandals before there was even 1 drop of oil pumped from the soil? How much jockeying and competition between oil companies there's been? The types of exploitation contracts that have been signed?).

Fuck, maybe they really do believe in the justness of their cause. But if any western governments, including the US, get involved, do you really think it's going to be because zomg Invis Children has opened my eyes to the horrible stuff Kony has done, we must liberate the poor opressed Ugandans! FOR ZEH CHILDREN! No, no it won't. It's going to be a way of imiscing itself even further into the pragmatic geopolitical game of resources.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Kafein on March 11, 2012, 09:21:38 pm
You're right, it's just a massive coincidence. It's not like there are charity organizations for Somalia, it's not like Ethiopia have been conducting military operations there for years. It's not like the Ugandan army has practically the same track record as the warlords like Kony that they fight. It's not like this is surging at a time when they are just beginning to exploit the 5 billion barrels of petrol that were discovered there about 6 years ago. OF COURSE no one has ever, ever abused humanitarian ideals and organizations for pragmatic, profitable goals.

Maybe if these fuckers didn't spend their entire video basically calling for military intervention, because we have to HELP the poor backwards fuckers to solve their own problems, because they're obviously incapable of doing it on their own (yey neo-white man's burden!). Maybe if the incredibly corrupt Ugandan government wasn't obviously riddled by bribes and promises to foreign oil companies (did you happen to look into that when you were learning the "basic details"? How many Ugandan politicians have been involved in such scandals before there was even 1 drop of oil pumped from the soil? How much jockeying and competition between oil companies there's been? The types of exploitation contracts that have been signed?).

Fuck, maybe they really do believe in the justness of their cause. But if any western governments, including the US, get involved, do you really think it's going to be because zomg Invis Children has opened my eyes to the horrible stuff Kony has done, we must liberate the poor opressed Ugandans! FOR ZEH CHILDREN! No, no it won't. It's going to be a way of imiscing itself even further into the pragmatic geopolitical game of resources.

Heh, it doesn't really matter does it ? Both the oil and the new concerns among the society about uganda, legitimate or not, are reasons for pragmatic people in charge to move. That's why democracy is quite a good form of government. It only takes very little good will for the leaders to act in a good way, because opinions matter. It's only sad they do not matter more.

But yeah, white man's burden is quite a problem when african countries start doing nothing to improve their situation, since they get foreign help anyway.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Oberyn on March 11, 2012, 09:35:37 pm
No, it only takes very little good will for the leaders to do what they wanted to do anyways but have the opportunity to cloak it in a seeming of legitimacy by tying it to humanitarian concerns. They're not going to "act in a good way". Has anyone here even tried looking into what experts of the region say arresting Kony is going to accomplish? Does anyone truly believe that obliterating the LRA is somehow going to change anything about Uganda? They've been pushed out of the country since 2006. Is anyone familiar with the other groups in Uganda, or the stuff the official military gets up to? Does anyone know Obama has already dispatched soldiers in OCTOBER of last year to hunt down Kony?
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Kafein on March 11, 2012, 09:56:56 pm
No, it only takes very little good will for the leaders to do what they wanted to do anyways but have the opportunity to cloak it in a seeming of legitimacy by tying it to humanitarian concerns. They're not going to "act in a good way". Has anyone here even tried looking into what experts of the region say arresting Kony is going to accomplish? Does anyone truly believe that obliterating the LRA is somehow going to change anything about Uganda? They've been pushed out of the country since 2006. Is anyone familiar with the other groups in Uganda, or the stuff the official military gets up to? Does anyone know Obama has already dispatched soldiers in OCTOBER of last year to hunt down Kony?

That was more like a general statement from me. Of course one of the problems is that public opinions are easily manipulated, and even more when ill-informed. I don't have a freaking idea of what should be done in that region of the world but what I know is that these countries are usually barely democratic and completely corrupt, there are many riches in the ground/forests and armed rebels.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Garem on March 11, 2012, 10:34:06 pm
If you choose to believe that political leaders only choose to act based upon self-enrichment schemes, I won't be able to change your mind.

I would attempt to explain to you how a political scientist looks at democratic leaders. The paradigm for determining what choices leaders make is nearly universally to determine choice-outcome for re-election. Simply put, democratic leaders will always choose to act on what they believe will keep them elected. Again, I'm not making this up. Asking anyone with a brain and a B.S. in Political Science.

Of course, you're too thick on these plots and schemes of the eeevil people in power. For everyone else, at least you can see that I tried to reason.

Next, Uganda. Uganda has serious problems. Nobody says otherwise. So what? That Kony isn't in Uganda. So what? It's still a thorn to Uganda, the DRC, the Central African Republic, and other nearby countries. Your perspective of looking at this as a country-based problem is far too simple to show a true appreciation for this complex, multi-national issue of social injustice. If you look at Kony as a "Ugandan problem", you've already proven your failure to understand the issue.

However, for the sake of a 30 minute video, which by its nature aims to get the viewer to become more informed on the issue, it's an excusable error of specificity. If you're trying to make an argument on the entirety of the issue outside of that 30 minute box, I'm holding you to a higher standard. You can't argue this issue within the framework of a national-level problem.

Next, the experts. We could throw expert opinions at each other all day. I've read quite a few. The vast majority see stopping Kony as a a great thing. Many are critical of the possibility, the cost, the impossibility with the status quo balance of power at the time of authorship. So what?

KONY2012/.Invisible Children is the attempt at playing the gamechanger. It's an attempt to get the Western world to help pay the cost and tip the balance to end this atrocious injustice. If it succeeds (and that we're arguing about this to begin with indicates that it has), then the discussion is reframed so that we start to look at this major international problem without the Afro-pessimism (borderline racism) that has pervaded the discussion in the Western world for so long so as to prevent their honest approach at a serious and ignored problem.

I mean, let's look at the Bosnian crisis. Our actions there are completely against the argument you present- we had virtually no economic interest in the region. In fact, America wanted the fledgling EU to solve the problem and bring justice to mass murderers like Milosevic. They didn't, NATO and the US stepped in when multi-lateral talks failed to address the crisis. The airstrikes to subdue military conflict (and later NATO ground troops) forced the Dayton Accords.

You want to talk about a hot political mess, there you have it. And those groups had some serious military hardware.

But what may be most important, they were white. And European.

Why Bosnia, but not Rwanda? The misstep in Somalia and political backlash didn't help, but let's be honest... it was Afro-pessimism, this foolish idea that the black African is somehow immoral or incapable. That they are less deserving of relief from tragedy and are mere victims of their own wretched backwardness. That's the same line of thinking that prompted the White Man's Burden, that the white man must change and civilize the black and brown, and now it fuels your foolish paradigm for doing nothing at all. All humans are equal, but some are more equal than others?

And Kafein, that's a very fair perspective to have on it. Even if it were about the oil, that's a pretty good reason to intervene. Nobody wins if the oil isn't tapped. But I really can't stress enough that you think about what you said, that Africans are doing "nothing to help themselves". That's just not true and fails to consider the lasting problems that stemmed from Colonialism. I'm not going to blame you for that view. It's not a new one, and assuming you were raised in a Western country that's certainly what society seems to think collectively. But it's wrong.

I'll end on an important note. Use some foresight here. Our ancestors failed at doing so time and time again. We look back at all the social injustices in modern history, and in every single case we know that we should have done something about it sooner. We should have stopped the chocolate chip cookies before they murdered millions, we should have been more wary of Stalinism before it murdered millions more, we should have stopped Milosevic sooner, we should have stopped the genocide in Rwanda. But during all of these events, we failed not in the end but in their beginnings. We hesitated, we argued, we didn't want to act. We let it get as bad as it could before we made the hard choices and did what needed to be done, if even so much.

When will we overcome our own errant nature? We're already 26 years late. That's long enough in my mind.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: SixThumbs on March 11, 2012, 11:27:52 pm
I think the main problem with this whole thing is, yeah, it brought attention to the "whole situation" condensed down into a 30-minute documentary-style presentation. Of the million or however many people that it has brought to the attention to how many do you think are actually going to go out of there way and do a little background research into it, how many are going to blindly throw money at this organization for some altruistic high and how many are going to watch/ignore it and just start making insensitive memes?
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Oberyn on March 12, 2012, 12:08:40 am
If you choose to believe that political leaders only choose to act based upon self-enrichment schemes, I won't be able to change your mind.

Yes, political actors always act according to self-interest. If you think the decision to go after Kony is entirely out of humanitarian ideal then you're naive. At most it's a bonus.
If you think the only reason NATO intervened in Bosnia was because they were white, well I dunno what to tell you. It obviously couldn't be because the Balkans is at the best of times an ethnic conflict powder keg waiting to explode, and nipping it in a the bud was safer than waiting for the inevitable chain reaction of inter-ethnic conflict that would drag on for years and destabilize the region. It's because they were white. Just like when they intervened in Somalia, that well known country composed entirely of white people, another NATO operation with, of course, no ulterior motives beyond humanitarian concerns.
I love the accusation that I'm somehow a racist because I recognize how entirely fucked the country is not only because of it's colonial past but ALSO the very contemporary neo-coloniasm of large corporations. You can ignore what the picture is really like, and I'm going to paint it for you: Uganda turned into a very large cake, and people have been rushing over with plate and fork bribing left and right for a share. You can ignore that reality if you like, and pretend that Western nations have no vested interest there beyond helping people build better lives for themselves.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Tyrell on March 12, 2012, 03:16:04 am
I can post a wall of text too

I think we are all fully aware of your capability to post a great wall of China text.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Kalam on March 12, 2012, 03:51:25 am
Any lasting interference by NATO or a developed country in this conflict (whether that's driven by the emotional response of the public, economic interests, both, and everything in between) can only end with a dead warlord. Either deals are made or people are killed. I don't see the United States (for one) going into a region embroiled in the kind of conflict we're talking about and capturing this guy in order to drag him before an international tribunal.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, it's just how it is. To be honest, it's time for China to step up and lead some international policing. Especially since Netanyahu essentially has us (Americans) in a political vice. Whether it's a Republican or Obama, they can't help but agree with anything Israel does this year. That's not counting other issues like Syria, either. We're really not in a position to do anything about it at the moment.

What we can do is remember and act accordingly for the future. That, and individual efforts, of course.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Kafein on March 15, 2012, 08:04:05 pm
Any lasting interference by NATO or a developed country in this conflict (whether that's driven by the emotional response of the public, economic interests, both, and everything in between) can only end with a dead warlord. Either deals are made or people are killed. I don't see the United States (for one) going into a region embroiled in the kind of conflict we're talking about and capturing this guy in order to drag him before an international tribunal.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, it's just how it is. To be honest, it's time for China to step up and lead some international policing. Especially since Netanyahu essentially has us (Americans) in a political vice. Whether it's a Republican or Obama, they can't help but agree with anything Israel does this year. That's not counting other issues like Syria, either. We're really not in a position to do anything about it at the moment.

What we can do is remember and act accordingly for the future. That, and individual efforts, of course.

I thought China is part of the reason we don't do anything about Syria ?

Yes, political actors always act according to self-interest.

This is quite a ridiculous statement, isn't it ? The only way that can be true is that all humans always act according to self interest. Of course you could argue this is actually the case, and it can be justified with some basic biology but yeah that doesn't really apply to the usual meaning of self interest.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: SixThumbs on March 17, 2012, 05:25:55 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32PBZ870ymg&skipcontrinter=1

This man surely knows how to solve all of Uganda's problems.
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Weren on March 18, 2012, 01:12:18 pm
Yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGvVvFQQZUo&feature=g-u-u&context=G2972931FUAAAAAAAAAA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGvVvFQQZUo&feature=g-u-u&context=G2972931FUAAAAAAAAAA)
Title: Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
Post by: Nessaj on March 18, 2012, 08:12:15 pm
As others have already posted YouTube videos about:

Quote from: NBC
Jason Russell, the 33-year-old co-founder of Invisible Children, has been reportedly been arrested by San Diego Police Department for bring drunk in public and masturbating, according to NBC San Diego.

http://www.businessinsider.com/kony-2012-jason-russell-arrested-masturbating-2012-3 (http://www.businessinsider.com/kony-2012-jason-russell-arrested-masturbating-2012-3)


I applaud the notion of people working together to solve a problem though and hopefully some of those brainwashed youngsters will learn from this experience in one way or another, either by being fooled by it or seeing through it, either works in the big picture, what matters is that they're researching an actual subject, the problem is if all the material they use is solely provided by for example their education. They need to go online (or to the library) and research actual databases, not trust what is handed to them as fact.

Either way, any sort of campaign where you need to pay for the 'information package' (or pay to be a part of it) is obviously a sham.


The Truth

The real truth behind Uganda is basically stealing land (and most probably also Oil and other resources) by forcing farmers and regular people out based on some sort of new international program, whatever they can come up with of complete fabrication, look at the UN sanctioned "Clean Air" program which is one of the more known incidents due to a few news-papers picking up on it, and remember, NEWS PAPERS, not mainstream media. That said the UN does sanction some programs such as UNESCO which truly do good, having UN support or affiliation does not necessarily mean 'bad' - in fact several UN branches are "at war" with each other due to the use of misinformation and corruption within.

The Telegraph - Killing Ugandans to save the planet (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100107476/killing-ugandans-to-save-the-planet/)
Quote
KICUCULA, Uganda — According to the company’s proposal to join a United Nations clean-air program, the settlers living in this area left in a “peaceful” and “voluntary” manner.

People here remember it quite differently.

“I heard people being beaten, so I ran outside,” said Emmanuel Cyicyima, 33. “The houses were being burnt down.”

Other villagers described gun-toting soldiers and an 8-year-old child burning to death when his home was set ablaze by security officers.

“They said if we hesitated they would shoot us,” said William Bakeshisha, adding that he hid in his coffee plantation, watching his house burn down. “Smoke and fire.”

According to a report released by the aid group Oxfam on Wednesday, more than 20,000 people say they were evicted from their homes here in recent years to make way for a tree plantation run by a British forestry company, emblematic of a global scramble for arable land.


New York Times - In Scramble for Land, Group Says, Company Pushed Ugandans Out (https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/22/world/africa/in-scramble-for-land-oxfam-says-ugandans-were-pushed-out.html)
Quote
A Ugandan government spokesman said residents in Namwasa were illegal encroachers, but he acknowledged and deplored the use of violence to remove them, saying it was done by corrupt politicians and police officers operating outside the law.

Tensions brewed. The company and government said the residents were living illegally in a forest. Residents said they had rights. Community members took the company to court in 2009 and a temporary injunction was issued, barring evictions. Nevertheless, Oxfam and residents say, evictions continued.

Residents were given until Feb. 28, 2010, to vacate company premises while soldiers and the police kept surveillance. Company officials visited, too. From time to time a house would be burnt down, villagers said. Then came Feb. 28, a Sunday.

“We were in church,” recalled Jean-Marie Tushabe, 26, a father of two. “I heard bullets being shot into the air.”

“Cars were coming with police,” Mr. Tushabe said, sitting among the ruins of his old home. “They headed straight to the houses. They took our plates, cups, mattresses, bed, pillows. Then we saw them getting a matchbox out of their pockets.”

Homeless and hopeless, Mr. Tushabe said he took a job with the company that pushed him out. He was promised more than $100 each month, he said, but received only about $30


Huffingtonpost - U.S. Universities, Investors Accused Of 'Land Grabs' In Africa (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/09/africa-land-grabs_n_874557.html) (good compilation of all news regarding the subject)
Quote
Obang Metho, a member of the Solidarity Movement for New Ethiopia, said these deals look more like business models than philanthropy, reports CBS:

    "No one should believe that these investors are there to feed starving Africans, create jobs or improve food security. These land grab agreements -- many of which could be in place for 99 years -- do not mean progress for local people and will not lead to food in their stomachs. These deals lead only to dollars in the pockets of corrupt leaders and foreign investors."


It is amazing what brain-washing can achieve nowadays, with things like this KONY movement, if it wasn't for all the resistance I would seriously lose any hope of humanity ever getting its act together. All of these facts above, including about the KONY movement can even be found online, there are actual Ugandans speaking out about the KONY scam and actively protesting it, not to mention all these other atrocities committed.

I dread what the history books will write about our generations in the future, it surely won't be forgiving, and rightfully so.


Regarding UNESCO
, which as I mentioned earlier are one of the best -- if not THE best UN sanctioned program, at least on par with Peace One Day (http://www.youtube.com/user/PeaceOneDay) -- The United States have cut ALL their ties and funding to UNESCO, even though by doing this they are actively hurting their own interests, yes crazy right? The US actually have had a law in place since 1990 which states that any organization in the World that supports Palestine is to be shunned, e.g. no support at all in any regards.

Quote from: Raw Story
In a special two-part segment on Thursday night’s The Daily Show, correspondent John Oliver took an in-depth look at the U.S. government’s decision to block funding to the relief group UNESCO.

First, Oliver meets with former Congressman Robert Wexler (D-FL), who informs him that under 1990′s Public Law 103-236, the United States is forbidden to provide funding to any agencies who deal with Palestine directly. As a result, a UNESCO spokesperson says, programs like fresh water for 950,000 people, literacy programs for the Afghan police force, and programs to strengthen the Iraqi judiciary are all going to have to be scrapped.

Watch the two-part segments here (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/16/daily-show-blasts-u-s-decision-to-stop-funding-unesco/) or watch the full Daily Show program (http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/thu-march-15-2012-) at the official website. I highly recommend to watch the two segments.