Author Topic: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More  (Read 3681 times)

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Offline SixThumbs

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Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2012, 03:11:46 am »
0
Can anyone else not access this site: www.newvision.co.ug/

I think it's supposed to be an independent news site for Uganda.

Edit: Works now.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 04:00:47 pm by SixThumbs »
And how!

Offline Tor!

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Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2012, 01:48:11 pm »
+7
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Offline Oberyn

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Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2012, 07:51:35 pm »
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I don't understand the focus on Uganda considering this guy operates in other countries as well. Well, actually I do understand it, it's about the 5 billion barrels of oil. Why isn't this campaign focused on, say, The DRC? The LRA and the shit they do is not exactly unique in subsaharan guerilla forces. Why try to equate Kony with Uganda? GEE I WONDAH.
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Offline Mr. Hannibal

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Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2012, 07:58:01 pm »
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I remember cocks!

Offline Garem

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Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2012, 08:04:42 pm »
-1
I don't understand the focus on Uganda considering this guy operates in other countries as well. Well, actually I do understand it, it's about the 5 billion barrels of oil. Why isn't this campaign focused on, say, The DRC? The LRA and the shit they do is not exactly unique in subsaharan guerilla forces. Why try to equate Kony with Uganda? GEE I WONDAH.

Or because Uganda is the only one of the countries being directly effected that has the military capability to effectively fight back?
Or because Uganda was where it all began, where many of the child soldiers came from- it's an army composed largely of kidnapped Ugandan children?
Or because the issue is already so complex that it takes 30 minutes to just inform the viewer of the most basic details, so Uganda was picked because it's the key player?
Or you don't know much about the mineral wealth of the D.R.C.?

Obviously, the Invisible Children are just pawns in the great games of the OIL BARONS THAT RUN THE WOOOORLD. I hear they also caused 9/11 and forged Obama's birth certificate.

Come on. Make reasonable arguments if you're going to make them at all. Conspiracy theories as an attempt to discredit this movement is lulzy.

Or am I just an Illuminati trying to confuse you all into supporting my New World Order?!
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Offline Oberyn

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Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2012, 08:30:11 pm »
+3
You're right, it's just a massive coincidence. It's not like there are charity organizations for Somalia, it's not like Ethiopia have been conducting military operations there for years. It's not like the Ugandan army has practically the same track record as the warlords like Kony that they fight. It's not like this is surging at a time when they are just beginning to exploit the 5 billion barrels of petrol that were discovered there about 6 years ago. OF COURSE no one has ever, ever abused humanitarian ideals and organizations for pragmatic, profitable goals.

Maybe if these fuckers didn't spend their entire video basically calling for military intervention, because we have to HELP the poor backwards fuckers to solve their own problems, because they're obviously incapable of doing it on their own (yey neo-white man's burden!). Maybe if the incredibly corrupt Ugandan government wasn't obviously riddled by bribes and promises to foreign oil companies (did you happen to look into that when you were learning the "basic details"? How many Ugandan politicians have been involved in such scandals before there was even 1 drop of oil pumped from the soil? How much jockeying and competition between oil companies there's been? The types of exploitation contracts that have been signed?).

Fuck, maybe they really do believe in the justness of their cause. But if any western governments, including the US, get involved, do you really think it's going to be because zomg Invis Children has opened my eyes to the horrible stuff Kony has done, we must liberate the poor opressed Ugandans! FOR ZEH CHILDREN! No, no it won't. It's going to be a way of imiscing itself even further into the pragmatic geopolitical game of resources.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 08:31:45 pm by Oberyn »
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Offline Kafein

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Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2012, 09:21:38 pm »
0
You're right, it's just a massive coincidence. It's not like there are charity organizations for Somalia, it's not like Ethiopia have been conducting military operations there for years. It's not like the Ugandan army has practically the same track record as the warlords like Kony that they fight. It's not like this is surging at a time when they are just beginning to exploit the 5 billion barrels of petrol that were discovered there about 6 years ago. OF COURSE no one has ever, ever abused humanitarian ideals and organizations for pragmatic, profitable goals.

Maybe if these fuckers didn't spend their entire video basically calling for military intervention, because we have to HELP the poor backwards fuckers to solve their own problems, because they're obviously incapable of doing it on their own (yey neo-white man's burden!). Maybe if the incredibly corrupt Ugandan government wasn't obviously riddled by bribes and promises to foreign oil companies (did you happen to look into that when you were learning the "basic details"? How many Ugandan politicians have been involved in such scandals before there was even 1 drop of oil pumped from the soil? How much jockeying and competition between oil companies there's been? The types of exploitation contracts that have been signed?).

Fuck, maybe they really do believe in the justness of their cause. But if any western governments, including the US, get involved, do you really think it's going to be because zomg Invis Children has opened my eyes to the horrible stuff Kony has done, we must liberate the poor opressed Ugandans! FOR ZEH CHILDREN! No, no it won't. It's going to be a way of imiscing itself even further into the pragmatic geopolitical game of resources.

Heh, it doesn't really matter does it ? Both the oil and the new concerns among the society about uganda, legitimate or not, are reasons for pragmatic people in charge to move. That's why democracy is quite a good form of government. It only takes very little good will for the leaders to act in a good way, because opinions matter. It's only sad they do not matter more.

But yeah, white man's burden is quite a problem when african countries start doing nothing to improve their situation, since they get foreign help anyway.

Offline Oberyn

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Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2012, 09:35:37 pm »
+2
No, it only takes very little good will for the leaders to do what they wanted to do anyways but have the opportunity to cloak it in a seeming of legitimacy by tying it to humanitarian concerns. They're not going to "act in a good way". Has anyone here even tried looking into what experts of the region say arresting Kony is going to accomplish? Does anyone truly believe that obliterating the LRA is somehow going to change anything about Uganda? They've been pushed out of the country since 2006. Is anyone familiar with the other groups in Uganda, or the stuff the official military gets up to? Does anyone know Obama has already dispatched soldiers in OCTOBER of last year to hunt down Kony?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 09:48:03 pm by Oberyn »
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Offline Kafein

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Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2012, 09:56:56 pm »
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No, it only takes very little good will for the leaders to do what they wanted to do anyways but have the opportunity to cloak it in a seeming of legitimacy by tying it to humanitarian concerns. They're not going to "act in a good way". Has anyone here even tried looking into what experts of the region say arresting Kony is going to accomplish? Does anyone truly believe that obliterating the LRA is somehow going to change anything about Uganda? They've been pushed out of the country since 2006. Is anyone familiar with the other groups in Uganda, or the stuff the official military gets up to? Does anyone know Obama has already dispatched soldiers in OCTOBER of last year to hunt down Kony?

That was more like a general statement from me. Of course one of the problems is that public opinions are easily manipulated, and even more when ill-informed. I don't have a freaking idea of what should be done in that region of the world but what I know is that these countries are usually barely democratic and completely corrupt, there are many riches in the ground/forests and armed rebels.

Offline Garem

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Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2012, 10:34:06 pm »
0
If you choose to believe that political leaders only choose to act based upon self-enrichment schemes, I won't be able to change your mind.

I would attempt to explain to you how a political scientist looks at democratic leaders. The paradigm for determining what choices leaders make is nearly universally to determine choice-outcome for re-election. Simply put, democratic leaders will always choose to act on what they believe will keep them elected. Again, I'm not making this up. Asking anyone with a brain and a B.S. in Political Science.

Of course, you're too thick on these plots and schemes of the eeevil people in power. For everyone else, at least you can see that I tried to reason.

Next, Uganda. Uganda has serious problems. Nobody says otherwise. So what? That Kony isn't in Uganda. So what? It's still a thorn to Uganda, the DRC, the Central African Republic, and other nearby countries. Your perspective of looking at this as a country-based problem is far too simple to show a true appreciation for this complex, multi-national issue of social injustice. If you look at Kony as a "Ugandan problem", you've already proven your failure to understand the issue.

However, for the sake of a 30 minute video, which by its nature aims to get the viewer to become more informed on the issue, it's an excusable error of specificity. If you're trying to make an argument on the entirety of the issue outside of that 30 minute box, I'm holding you to a higher standard. You can't argue this issue within the framework of a national-level problem.

Next, the experts. We could throw expert opinions at each other all day. I've read quite a few. The vast majority see stopping Kony as a a great thing. Many are critical of the possibility, the cost, the impossibility with the status quo balance of power at the time of authorship. So what?

KONY2012/.Invisible Children is the attempt at playing the gamechanger. It's an attempt to get the Western world to help pay the cost and tip the balance to end this atrocious injustice. If it succeeds (and that we're arguing about this to begin with indicates that it has), then the discussion is reframed so that we start to look at this major international problem without the Afro-pessimism (borderline racism) that has pervaded the discussion in the Western world for so long so as to prevent their honest approach at a serious and ignored problem.

I mean, let's look at the Bosnian crisis. Our actions there are completely against the argument you present- we had virtually no economic interest in the region. In fact, America wanted the fledgling EU to solve the problem and bring justice to mass murderers like Milosevic. They didn't, NATO and the US stepped in when multi-lateral talks failed to address the crisis. The airstrikes to subdue military conflict (and later NATO ground troops) forced the Dayton Accords.

You want to talk about a hot political mess, there you have it. And those groups had some serious military hardware.

But what may be most important, they were white. And European.

Why Bosnia, but not Rwanda? The misstep in Somalia and political backlash didn't help, but let's be honest... it was Afro-pessimism, this foolish idea that the black African is somehow immoral or incapable. That they are less deserving of relief from tragedy and are mere victims of their own wretched backwardness. That's the same line of thinking that prompted the White Man's Burden, that the white man must change and civilize the black and brown, and now it fuels your foolish paradigm for doing nothing at all. All humans are equal, but some are more equal than others?

And Kafein, that's a very fair perspective to have on it. Even if it were about the oil, that's a pretty good reason to intervene. Nobody wins if the oil isn't tapped. But I really can't stress enough that you think about what you said, that Africans are doing "nothing to help themselves". That's just not true and fails to consider the lasting problems that stemmed from Colonialism. I'm not going to blame you for that view. It's not a new one, and assuming you were raised in a Western country that's certainly what society seems to think collectively. But it's wrong.

I'll end on an important note. Use some foresight here. Our ancestors failed at doing so time and time again. We look back at all the social injustices in modern history, and in every single case we know that we should have done something about it sooner. We should have stopped the chocolate chip cookies before they murdered millions, we should have been more wary of Stalinism before it murdered millions more, we should have stopped Milosevic sooner, we should have stopped the genocide in Rwanda. But during all of these events, we failed not in the end but in their beginnings. We hesitated, we argued, we didn't want to act. We let it get as bad as it could before we made the hard choices and did what needed to be done, if even so much.

When will we overcome our own errant nature? We're already 26 years late. That's long enough in my mind.
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Offline SixThumbs

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Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2012, 11:27:52 pm »
0
I think the main problem with this whole thing is, yeah, it brought attention to the "whole situation" condensed down into a 30-minute documentary-style presentation. Of the million or however many people that it has brought to the attention to how many do you think are actually going to go out of there way and do a little background research into it, how many are going to blindly throw money at this organization for some altruistic high and how many are going to watch/ignore it and just start making insensitive memes?
And how!

Offline Oberyn

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Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2012, 12:08:40 am »
+3
If you choose to believe that political leaders only choose to act based upon self-enrichment schemes, I won't be able to change your mind.

Yes, political actors always act according to self-interest. If you think the decision to go after Kony is entirely out of humanitarian ideal then you're naive. At most it's a bonus.
If you think the only reason NATO intervened in Bosnia was because they were white, well I dunno what to tell you. It obviously couldn't be because the Balkans is at the best of times an ethnic conflict powder keg waiting to explode, and nipping it in a the bud was safer than waiting for the inevitable chain reaction of inter-ethnic conflict that would drag on for years and destabilize the region. It's because they were white. Just like when they intervened in Somalia, that well known country composed entirely of white people, another NATO operation with, of course, no ulterior motives beyond humanitarian concerns.
I love the accusation that I'm somehow a racist because I recognize how entirely fucked the country is not only because of it's colonial past but ALSO the very contemporary neo-coloniasm of large corporations. You can ignore what the picture is really like, and I'm going to paint it for you: Uganda turned into a very large cake, and people have been rushing over with plate and fork bribing left and right for a share. You can ignore that reality if you like, and pretend that Western nations have no vested interest there beyond helping people build better lives for themselves.
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Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2012, 03:16:04 am »
0
I can post a wall of text too

I think we are all fully aware of your capability to post a great wall of China text.
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Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2012, 03:51:25 am »
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Any lasting interference by NATO or a developed country in this conflict (whether that's driven by the emotional response of the public, economic interests, both, and everything in between) can only end with a dead warlord. Either deals are made or people are killed. I don't see the United States (for one) going into a region embroiled in the kind of conflict we're talking about and capturing this guy in order to drag him before an international tribunal.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, it's just how it is. To be honest, it's time for China to step up and lead some international policing. Especially since Netanyahu essentially has us (Americans) in a political vice. Whether it's a Republican or Obama, they can't help but agree with anything Israel does this year. That's not counting other issues like Syria, either. We're really not in a position to do anything about it at the moment.

What we can do is remember and act accordingly for the future. That, and individual efforts, of course.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 03:53:35 am by Kalam »

Offline Kafein

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Re: KONY 2012, Invis. Children, Thoughts/Critiques/More
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2012, 08:04:05 pm »
0
Any lasting interference by NATO or a developed country in this conflict (whether that's driven by the emotional response of the public, economic interests, both, and everything in between) can only end with a dead warlord. Either deals are made or people are killed. I don't see the United States (for one) going into a region embroiled in the kind of conflict we're talking about and capturing this guy in order to drag him before an international tribunal.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, it's just how it is. To be honest, it's time for China to step up and lead some international policing. Especially since Netanyahu essentially has us (Americans) in a political vice. Whether it's a Republican or Obama, they can't help but agree with anything Israel does this year. That's not counting other issues like Syria, either. We're really not in a position to do anything about it at the moment.

What we can do is remember and act accordingly for the future. That, and individual efforts, of course.

I thought China is part of the reason we don't do anything about Syria ?

Yes, political actors always act according to self-interest.

This is quite a ridiculous statement, isn't it ? The only way that can be true is that all humans always act according to self interest. Of course you could argue this is actually the case, and it can be justified with some basic biology but yeah that doesn't really apply to the usual meaning of self interest.