cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Tazman on March 07, 2012, 01:21:17 pm

Title: Ghost-Range
Post by: Tazman on March 07, 2012, 01:21:17 pm
Please fix the "Ghost-Range" of some weapons before you integrate new features, weapons, armor and so on.

It's everytime unbeleavable, that some 1h-weapons are longer then polearms. The same with the Flamberge...heavy "Ghost-Range" and to fast for this weight.
And this is not a problem of the ping, the agility or whatever...it's a fault of the programming / game. I see this problem often ingame and if i'm in spectator-mode.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Fartface on March 07, 2012, 01:30:04 pm
Go QQ on taleword.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Tazman on March 07, 2012, 02:03:39 pm
Here you can ask for new features for crpg. So i'm asking for fix the known problems too.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: MrShine on March 07, 2012, 02:43:19 pm
ghost range doesn't really exist, its more likely an ignorance in knowing swing reaches.  1H right swing has extra reach based on animation, while pole thrust is shorter

instead of blaming the game perhaps you should get more practice in
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Dexxtaa on March 07, 2012, 02:57:29 pm
... the Flamberge...heavy "Ghost-Range" and to fast for this weight.

...heavy "Ghost-Range" and to fast for this weight.

heavy "Ghost-Range"

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Tazman on March 07, 2012, 03:56:04 pm
Nice Pics...and now?

ghost range doesn't really exist, its more likely an ignorance in knowing swing reaches.

Aha...it ignore the swing reaches -- called it ghost-range maybe? ;)
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Duncdar on March 07, 2012, 05:18:18 pm
Nice Pics...and now?

Aha...it ignore the swing reaches -- called it ghost-range maybe? ;)
No, he's talking about the animations of it. It's not ghost reach because you can see the animation gives the weapon a bit of extra length.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Okkam on March 07, 2012, 05:56:52 pm
Some 1H maces clearly has strange enough reach with overhead. I do not have any problem with their right-left swings though.
also arabian cavalry sword with his stab and overheads... another crazy weapon. It can outrange longsword sideswings.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on March 07, 2012, 06:10:17 pm
Reduce all coded weapon reach by 5. Then either non or reverse ghost reach.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Renten on March 07, 2012, 06:51:16 pm
Are you talking about like with the 2h animation making the stab gain +50 weapon length? Because many polearms in the 130s with length are effectively 115 due to their animations. Yet 2h and 1h tend to gain length from their animations. This means a 1h could legitimately outreach a 120 and less length polearm especially when the polearm is doing side swings.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Tazman on March 07, 2012, 07:11:09 pm
Right...polearms should also have more range if they will swing.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on March 07, 2012, 07:16:08 pm
I'm sure he's not talking about swings, but the effective length of the weapon.

Elite Scimitar, for example, seems a bit longer than it actually looks.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Phew on March 07, 2012, 07:52:53 pm
Who goes by looks? I remember what weapons are longer than others. When someone is charging me with a chambered German Poleaxe Thrust (for instance), in my head I go "OK, his effective range is 150". My Long Espada thrust is 164, so I will try to outreach him on my thrust (rather than block first).

An elite scimi has an effective reach of 119 on a right swing, same as a Longsword right swing. Nothing "ghost" about that, just the nature of the M&B animations. Don't just assume you will outrange every 1-hander you see on the battlefield, do the math in your head. Take solice in the fact that 1h thrusts and right swings may have good range, but they glance nonstop.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Rumblood on March 07, 2012, 10:28:50 pm
Who goes by looks? I

Oh I don't know, perhaps people who subscribe to the video part of game?  :?
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Rusty_Shacklefjord on March 07, 2012, 11:55:10 pm
Who goes by looks? I remember what weapons are longer than others. When someone is charging me with a chambered German Poleaxe Thrust (for instance), in my head I go "OK, his effective range is 150". My Long Espada thrust is 164, so I will try to outreach him on my thrust (rather than block first).

An elite scimi has an effective reach of 119 on a right swing, same as a Longsword right swing. Nothing "ghost" about that, just the nature of the M&B animations. Don't just assume you will outrange every 1-hander you see on the battlefield, do the math in your head. Take solice in the fact that 1h thrusts and right swings may have good range, but they glance nonstop.

This - it's an interesting mechanic that makes the game deeper.

Also, realistically, some weapons DID have a sort of "ghost range" because of their shape. Curved weapons like the scimitar appear shorter than they are because people tend to look at the leading edge rather than the far end of it.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Leshma on March 08, 2012, 12:08:15 am
I'm sure he's not talking about swings, but the effective length of the weapon.

Elite Scimitar, for example, seems a bit longer than it actually looks.

Wrong. But it hits before the model you see. Same goes for most curved blades and some polearms (probably because of some animation bug).
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 08, 2012, 12:14:22 am
Wrong. But it hits before the model you see. Same goes for most curved blades and some polearms (probably because of some animation bug).

what he said

it has been shown that weapons like elite scimitar is seen as a curved blade but in the game mechanics, it is considered as a classical straight sword( not precisely that but i cant be bothered to get you a picture to explain). Therefor the spammitar will hit you slightly before the sword graphicly makes contact with your character
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 08, 2012, 01:52:18 am
no weapons currently have ghost reach. All of their hitboxes are as long as (or in some cases very slightly shorter than) their models.
You're just judging distance poorly/not perceiving the length animations add.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: oprah_winfrey on March 08, 2012, 02:08:39 am
no weapons currently have ghost reach. All of their hitboxes are as long as (or in some cases very slightly shorter than) their models.
You're just judging distance poorly/not perceiving the length animations add.

The scimitar has a longer range then it appears. The game measures it at 100 length straight, so under the game mechanics it has the same range as an arabian guard sword (100), but in game, the curved nature of the scimi modelmakes it appear as if it is shorter since in reality it is shorter.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 08, 2012, 06:30:01 am
The scimitar has a longer range then it appears. The game measures it at 100 length straight, so under the game mechanics it has the same range as an arabian guard sword (100), but in game, the curved nature of the scimi modelmakes it appear as if it is shorter since in reality it is shorter.
Nope. The dev's showed pictures regarding this.
The only thing that curved blade does is make it seem to hit oh so slightly earlier than it does, there is no extra reach. I'm not going to search for the post though.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Rumblood on March 08, 2012, 03:03:07 pm
Okay this is lame paint done in 2 secs but it illustrates the concept.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


The grey line is what you see, the red line is where it actually hits. There is no ghost range, just that it hits before the graphic.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Teeth on March 08, 2012, 03:38:33 pm
There are just a few weapons that surprise me with their range everytime. And I think there is definitely some ghostreach for some models.

I'll just leave it at that to prevent ridicule. I'll see if I can do some tests some time.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Phew on March 08, 2012, 04:10:27 pm
Go on Duel Server. Equip an Elite Scimitar, grab a friend with an Arabian Guard Sword. Do left swings and slowly approach each other.

Both of you will start hitting each other at the exact same distance, because both swords are 100 length. Every weapon in the game has the exact reach listed on the equipment screen, modified by the swing animation reach bonus/penalty.

Curved weapons behave a little differently than you would think based on their MODEL, but no differently from their listed stats. I think the OP is just mad that ::gasp:: he may have to execute a block against certain 1-handers before he starts mindlessly swinging away.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Tzar on March 08, 2012, 04:21:54 pm
chadz should make it impossible to be ingame an alt tab an post on the forums at the sametime.

Would reduce alt tab rage threads  :lol:
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: n445 on March 08, 2012, 04:28:11 pm
I may be wrong about this. But what about...:

Sword + Arm length = ?

Like I said, tell me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 08, 2012, 04:34:36 pm
I may be wrong about this. But what about...:

Sword + Arm length = ?

Like I said, tell me if I'm wrong.
that's what we're referring to with animation lengths.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 08, 2012, 05:38:47 pm
Okay this is lame paint done in 2 secs but it illustrates the concept.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


The grey line is what you see, the red line is where it actually hits. There is no ghost range, just that it hits before the graphic.

he did what i couldnt be bothered doing when i posted
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: _JoG_ on March 08, 2012, 05:51:23 pm
There are just a few weapons that surprise me with their range everytime. And I think there is definitely some ghostreach for some models.

I'll just leave it at that to prevent ridicule. I'll see if I can do some tests some time.
1. Download OpenBrf (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,72279.msg1878649.html#msg1878649).
2. Open the mod .brf files and find the right weapon mesh.
3. Measure its length.
...
4. PROFIT!!!

cRPG devs did a great job by adjusting ingame length of the weapons to the length of their meshes. I know it because I double checked the length of some Native weapon meshes for another mod and compared it with cRPG data. However, I guess cRPG devs made a mistake during the calculation of shield size - all heater and kite cRPG shields are actually smaller (shorter, the width is OK) than they are supposed to be. It's really easy to make that mistake, because the formula for calculating size of the shields in the module system is by no means straightforward, I personally had to do a lot of research to find it out.

In contrast to M&B Native, there's no such thing as "ghost reach" in cRPG.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Tazman on March 09, 2012, 03:50:23 pm
Today i made a thrust with a "Elegant Poleaxe" (range = 132) to an enemy with "Mallet" (range = 71). The enemy with this Mallet wanted to make an overhead. I made the thrust and did'nt hitted them and the enemy forced his overhead without moving and hitted me. My strike was earlier and i walked after this back. The Mallet-user did'nt move but hit me.

And now...you will realy say, that their is no "Ghost-Range"? Remember...i had a good ping, the enemy too.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: MrShine on March 09, 2012, 04:10:35 pm
Today i made a thrust with a "Elegant Poleaxe" (range = 132) to an enemy with "Mallet" (range = 71). The enemy with this Mallet wanted to make an overhead. I made the thrust and did'nt hitted them and the enemy forced his overhead without moving and hitted me. My strike was earlier and i walked after this back. The Mallet-user did'nt move but hit me.

And now...you will realy say, that their is no "Ghost-Range"? Remember...i had a good ping, the enemy too.

you either glanced (most likely) or missed him with the thrust, or are not remembering the scenario correctly.  Oh, or he may have chambered your thrust with the overhead.  But I'm PRETTY SURE the mallet doesn't have 62+ overhead ghost reach  :rolleyes:

I refer you to my earlier post:

ghost range doesn't really exist, its more likely an ignorance in knowing swing reaches.  1H right swing has extra reach based on animation, while pole thrust is shorter

instead of blaming the game perhaps you should get more practice in
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Rumblood on March 09, 2012, 04:13:24 pm
Today i made a thrust with a "Elegant Poleaxe" (range = 132) to an enemy with "Mallet" (range = 71). The enemy with this Mallet wanted to make an overhead. I made the thrust and did'nt hitted them and the enemy forced his overhead without moving and hitted me. My strike was earlier and i walked after this back. The Mallet-user did'nt move but hit me.

And now...you will realy say, that their is no "Ghost-Range"? Remember...i had a good ping, the enemy too.

You missed. My arrows can pass under arms and between legs. So can your pole. L2Aim  :P
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Renten on March 09, 2012, 07:12:07 pm
I would like to say don't thrust or use overheads against the one class likely to spam what will chamber your attack.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Tazman on March 09, 2012, 08:11:20 pm
Chamber? Who talked about a chamber?
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Rumblood on March 09, 2012, 08:20:25 pm
Chamber? Who talked about a chamber?

When you said "he forced his overhead", it sounds like a chamber, but would have missed that you thrusted.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Tazman on March 09, 2012, 08:41:04 pm
Forced...i would say, i choosed the wrong word.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Tazman on March 15, 2012, 11:27:02 pm
And again..fix this shit!!!
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 16, 2012, 12:53:48 am
And again..fix this shit!!!
It is fixed. I really don't know what everyone complains about regarding this anymore. I hear it everyday as an excuse for when they miss an easy block and clearly get hit.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Rumblood on March 16, 2012, 04:25:48 pm
There is no ghost range. What you may be experiencing is this "lag" issue that seems to have cropped up. You notice it primarily with fast horses. While on the horse, you can pass someone, be several yards past them, and then suddenly your horse is dead from the guy you passed a couple seconds ago. On the ground, you experience it differently. There, you get hit before you actually see the horse get to you.
In other words, the math is all happening realtime, but what you see, well that is not.
Title: Re: Ghost-Range
Post by: Ronin on March 16, 2012, 05:40:20 pm
Let me ask a question. What happens if the model of a weapon wouldn't be changed but it's length would be changed in the item value files (module_items)? Does all weapon get smaller/bigger or it just adds ghost reach/the opposite?

I also haven't noticed any ghost range in the game. Maybe that's me, but I really didn't really notice. Can you make a video and upload it on somewhere tazman? I mean, if you are not too lazy :P
If you think you are lazy, don't bother. Because I know what being lazy means. It will be a serious pain in the arse. I will try to discover it and make a video about it. But if you are going to work on it already, I would be glad cause I am a lazy being as well :P


Today i made a thrust with a "Elegant Poleaxe" (range = 132) to an enemy with "Mallet" (range = 71). The enemy with this Mallet wanted to make an overhead. I made the thrust and did'nt hitted them and the enemy forced his overhead without moving and hitted me. My strike was earlier and i walked after this back. The Mallet-user did'nt move but hit me.

And now...you will realy say, that their is no "Ghost-Range"? Remember...i had a good ping, the enemy too.
I think you have experienced something different in here. Even though I'm just guessing, you actually put your body forward when you tried to thrust him. Therefore making him to reach you with his mallet. If two handers wouldn't had good animations, no one would play them and it wouldn't be balanced. Still, I think I understand how you feel.