cRPG
cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Over on March 02, 2012, 04:30:25 am
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Here I have mostly just copy pasted my notes, If people show intrest in these figures, ill Clarify a bit more
Bow done with 156 wpf, 6 PD
Darts with 7 PT, 150 wpf
Accuracy test!
5 Yards
10 arrow All hit 19 dps
10 war darts all hit 39 dps
10 yards
10 arrows all hit 19 Dps
10 darts, 1 miss 90% accuracy 35.1 dps
20 yards
10 arrows, 1 miss 90% accuracy 17.1 DPS
10 darts, 5 miss 50% accuarcy 19.5 dps
50 yards
20 arrows, 7 miss 65% accuracy 12.35 DPS
20 darts 14 miss 30% accuracy 11.7 DPS
Rate of fire.
Longbow, 10 arrows per 30 seconds
19 DPS (14 modified by armor)
Wardarts, 24 in 26 seconds. (Round out to be 27 per 30)
39 DPS (26 modified by armor, Base values used for all calculations, these are just here for more info)
So, we can conclude, that If ammo is a non-issue, War darts are preferable (against a stationary target) up to about 40 yards where longbow starts to win in DPS due to accuaracy.
Gold efficency.
Wardart 42.5 pierce per dart
5.9 gold per Pierce damage!
longbowbows 57 per bodkin
19 gold per Pierce damage with 1 quiver
12 gold per Pierce with 2 quivers
On a Gold to damage basis, Wardarts a just over twice as good. Assuming perfect accuracy.
Total damage
Assuming all hits hit the enemy (In the torso)
30 bodkins will do... 1710 damage!
And 24 war darts will hit for... 1020 damage...
So, to find the point at which the wardarts have a higher total damage we... Do nothing. Longbow has a MUCH higher potential damage, and this gap gets bigger with more distance.
HOWEVER! We need to find the distance at which the wardarts cease to be more efficient for your gold!
I won't explain the math here, PM me if you are curious. But here are the results
the longbow is more efficient right around where it surpasses the darts in DPS, this time at 45 yards. (Compared to 40 before)
Now, for clarity, I will be have this picture here to show you my estimate of "50 Yards"
http://imgur.com/xmxv5 (http://imgur.com/xmxv5)
So, from a mathematical view, at ranges shorter than 35-50 yards, Throwers are SUPERIOR IN DPS. At longer distances, longbow wins. You also need to take in to account that if you are matching the longbows dps at this range, you will only be firing for about 25 seconds, whereas a bow goes for 1.5 minutes MINIMUM before it runs out of arrows. so even though it matches in dps at this range, due to higher rate of fire, you are in fact much worse off than the numbers suggest. if you really want to be all around better than a longbowman, you need to be throwing at ranges of less than 15 yards.
Basically, my conclusion is that Throwers are balanced, even though they are underplayed, and that to be a good thrower you should look like this
(You) X_________________________X(Enemy)
And that archers, to beat throwers in DPS and be generally more efficient you should look like this
(You)X____________________________________________________________________________X(Enemy)
Again, Ill clarify anything that need clarification, should you ask.
-Over (NINE THOUSAND!) :mrgreen:
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Sorry, bow way 159 WPF not 156, sorry!
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you be needin to get laid...
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mmmmath!
love those number...
now make another series of test with two pro of both discipline just to see...
but... I would love to see a final blow with value per gold...
and what about moving target?
because you got cool math and such only to tell us longbow is better at distance... which was common sense...
hum
still useful !
I need to make some test like that... but me i'll add some sin and cos so it will look more badass!
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I new it!
+3 War Darts are boss dog. Can't wait to see more heat from the +3s in strat.
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interesting, looks like a lot of work was put into this!
...although I'm not sure what you hope the result of this thread will be, since your result (throwing is better than archery at close ranges) was already pretty much universally known.
It would be more useful information if players frequently go between throwing and archery so they would know when to switch from archer to thrower based on distance but...there are pretty much 0 good archery/throwing hybrid builds. As an archer even if your DPS beats throwing from a great distance away you're still going to have increased damage being closer to targets since you'll miss less, so it doesn't really shed any light onto better practices.
Don't take that for discouragement though because it's a pretty interesting read, I just didn't come away from it with any new relevant information :)
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Summary of title?
Nerf throwing. Nuff said. :rolleyes:
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as a thrower you are lucky if you break 33% accuracy overall
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Possible purpose of thread: Info for people looking into speccing in throwing/archery and what they can expect number wise. So its pretty useful considering where it is in the forum.
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Possible purpose of thread: Info for people looking into speccing in throwing/archery and what they can expect number wise. So its pretty useful considering where it is in the forum.
Sorry Shiny, but this OP guy is just wrong.
Throwing is not accuracy or personal player skill based. It is LUCK and RANDOM CHANCE OF HITTING based.
Even if you are the best player in the world, but the reticule is triple as big as your target and your missile is like fiftieth of your reticule...
You are not going to hit on demand.
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Sorry Shiny, but this OP guy is just wrong.
Throwing is not accuracy or personal player skill based. It is LUCK and RANDOM CHANCE OF HITTING based.
Even if you are the best player in the world, but the reticule is triple as big as your target and your missile is like fiftieth of your reticule...
You are not going to hit on demand.
Why is your reticule that large when staying still as a thrower?
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Because I am not talking about point blank shots. I am talking about like 7-8 meters.
Try it with 150 wpf, you will see. I even tried to make some 180wpf thrower to check if it's really so retarded... didn't work, tho. Still BIG reticule.
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Well things like Javelins always throw in the same spot of your reticule ... so I call shenanigans.
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Tbh, throwingaccuracy is not defined by it's reticule. I myself and I believe many others who have done a few gens as a thrower only use the reticule to know where the center of the screen is or don't use it at all. Throwing is done intuitively and that's why throwers have to relearn their playstyle when missile speed is adjusted.
The size of the reticule inkt gives an indication of the random error in throwing.
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I did this testing to find the trade off point. Yes, It is common sense that throwing is better up close, I just wanted to see HOW CLOSE you needed to be for it to be better.
The answer is, this close. http://imgur.com/wMsaW (http://imgur.com/wMsaW)
Essentially, the perfect range for "Skirmishers" at this range you can expect to get off a dart or two, before the enemy closes on your position.
AndSorry Shiny, but this OP guy is just wrong.
Throwing is not accuracy or personal player skill based. It is LUCK and RANDOM CHANCE OF HITTING based.
Even if you are the best player in the world, but the reticule is triple as big as your target and your missile is like fiftieth of your reticule...
You are not going to hit on demand.
Yes, There is LUCK and RANDOM CHANCE. But that's what I tested with accuracy. I threw them at a stationary target, and saw how many hit. It had nothing to do with a reticule or projectile size! Spawny has the right idea.
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I've had about 3 gens as a thrower, one as a horse thrower (before slot system, damn you slots). One does not throw with the reticule, one WILLS the projectile into your target. Occasionally your projectile flies off randomly into the corner of the reticule but for the most part they throw in the same place. You learn the tendencies of your throwing weapon of choice (axes for me) and they'll go where you want. THE RETICULE IS A LIE
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Spoons is right, THE RETICULE IS A LIE! LONG LIVE WAR DARTS!
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Spoons is right, THE RETICULE IS A LIE! LONG LIVE WAR DARTS!
I used war darts for test, Because they are the best.
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I used war darts for test, Because they are the best.
You can't curve war darts over teammates to headshot the enemy. You can with axes!
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You can't curve war darts over teammates to headshot the enemy. You can with axes!
How?
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How?
jump. axes fall quickly
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If you're a certain distance back from the front lines you can drop axes right on people as well. Darts are more close range spam at you, axes medium-close.
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Also, not to be discounted in the bow/xbow/throwing debate... Throwing axes and their ilk are not all that bad as melee weapons. Plus, Shields!
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Also, not to be discounted in the bow/xbow/throwing debate... Throwing axes and their ilk are not all that bad as melee weapons. Plus, Shields!
You can still be bumped if you're using a shield in your weapon is in throw mode :|. I found that adding 7 throwing to my 7 PS guy did not help me much at all [84 pole, 130 throwing]. The throwing lance is a decent melee weapon, but there are times where I stab a fucker so many many times and he doesn't die :\ [the cake was a throwing lance throw+5 Long hafted blade hits]. To be fair, jarids, and axes are probably much better throwing weapons, with the axes being alright 1her weapons
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Axes are solid one handers.
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Along the lines of testing, about 15 yards from the target the 3rd person reticule is off by an inch above and seems to have an inclination to throw to the left of it(didn't test the centering long enough). This is probably why throwers do it by pure willpower and not aiming.
Once you start using the force though your accuracy sky rockets. I could hit 80% of my axes when picking my shots.
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I've had about 3 gens as a thrower, one as a horse thrower (before slot system, damn you slots). One does not throw with the reticule, one WILLS the projectile into your target. Occasionally your projectile flies off randomly into the corner of the reticule but for the most part they throw in the same place. You learn the tendencies of your throwing weapon of choice (axes for me) and they'll go where you want. THE RETICULE IS A LIE
That's what I was trying to say before...hence why I don't think the test can be accurate if they were lining up the center of the crosshair for the throws. I don't know all the throwing weapon trajectories, but I do know that jav's throw in the bottom right of the reticule, axes fall really quickly, so if you're not adjusting for these natural tendencies of the projectile you're doing it wrong.
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That's what I was trying to say before...hence why I don't think the test can be accurate if they were lining up the center of the crosshair for the throws. I don't know all the throwing weapon trajectories, but I do know that jav's throw in the bottom right of the reticule, axes fall really quickly, so if you're not adjusting for these natural tendencies of the projectile you're doing it wrong.
You're right (2gen thrower here), but I still think HT needs a damage buff (may or may not be HT),
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That's what I was trying to say before...hence why I don't think the test can be accurate if they were lining up the center of the crosshair for the throws. I don't know all the throwing weapon trajectories, but I do know that jav's throw in the bottom right of the reticule, axes fall really quickly, so if you're not adjusting for these natural tendencies of the projectile you're doing it wrong.
I was doing it right, At least for war darts, which throw pretty straight, I accounted for drop and made sure I was aiming right for the tests.
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The idea that wardarts of all things are being claimed a good option over the bow is just a laughable idea. Throwing packs far more punch at close range but if you throw wardarts they are far from strong. They also have limited ammo as a side weapon, lack of range and the accuracy is far off what bows can be potentially. I am a hybrid thrower and have been for 9 gens and with pt 5, wpf 145 and throwing mw javelins I can assure you that I am very much on par with a lot of stronger archers for damage, but far less accurate and have to get far closer to hit.
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So throwing is a short to medium range class?
Who would have guessed?
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So throwing is a short to medium range class?
Who would have guessed?
OMG! WHY DIDN'T ANYONE TELL ME! Here I've been throwing my shit from long range. It seemed so obvious at the time! Blasted!
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OMG! WHY DIDN'T ANYONE TELL ME! Here I've been throwing my shit from long range. It seemed so obvious at the time! Blasted!
lol +13
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HaHaHa. You Guys are so funny. I'm Glad to see that my hard work is not looked at for what use it does have. Yes, I get that the main Premise was obvious, Congrats on the joke. I am laughing so hard. Huehuehuehue.
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HaHaHa. You Guys are so funny. I'm Glad to see that my hard work is not looked at for what use it does have. Yes, I get that the main Premise was obvious, Congrats on the joke. I am laughing so hard. Huehuehuehue.
I think what everyone is trying to say in all seriousness is that the OP is just plain wrong :P
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I think what everyone is trying to say in all seriousness is that the OP is just plain wrong :P
About what? My results may be obvious, That does not mean they are wrong.
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About what? My results may be obvious, That does not mean they are wrong.
Your conclusion is wrong. Darts cannot hold a candle to bows, if this was the case far more people would use darts, me included :P Darts are far less accurate than you assume and the damage isnt as high as you claim either, its all very good getting numbers from a calculator but if you actually compare darts and bows ingame the result is quite different.
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Your conclusion is wrong. Darts cannot hold a candle to bows, if this was the case far more people would use darts, me included :P Darts are far less accurate than you assume and the damage isnt as high as you claim either, its all very good getting numbers from a calculator but if you actually compare darts and bows ingame the result is quite different.
Oh sweet irony! I actually just finished a gen as a long bowman, And am now using war darts as my main weapon, I find that the damage is significantly less per shot, and that they blow at range, But i get within 15 feet or so, and people get wrecked! My K/d As a bowman was about 1-1, But as a Wardarteer, I usually go 1.5-1 and I am only level 26! Yes, I get what you are saying, but at the same time, If you play to the darts strengths, and avoid the weaknesses (Long range) you can really roflstomp!
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If you get better kd's with darts than bows then you clearly weren't a very good bowman :P
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If you get better kd's with darts than bows then you clearly weren't a very good bowman :P
I can beat a few (of the worse) HAs (I'm using jarrids not darts, but I think I could still pull it off), sure against OD, Remy or Elmer I'd not stand a chance but still, point is, GIMME YOUR LOOMS!
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Thing with throwing lances is that you can take like 70%- 90% of one player.
So all you got to do is look for the good player and throw babe!:D
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Thing with throwing lances is that you can take like 70%- 90% of one player.
So all you got to do is look for the good player and throw babe!:D
I'd say 60-100% Really the same thing though, beats darts and bows for sure! (Though the ammo/gold blows.)
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I'd say 60-100% Really the same thing though, beats darts and bows for sure! (Though the ammo/gold blows.)
Don't forget the AWESOME melee mode! The speed and swings of a staff with the stab of a warspear. And an actual decent length on the weapon (still, just the same as a normal spear, i.e. short, but longer than the hilariously short throwing spears/javelins/jareds/throwing axes). I love me some throwing lances! :D Might go polearm/throwing sometime in the future. Anyone got a quarterstaff they wanna trade?