cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Spook Island on February 28, 2012, 07:12:07 am
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I am Absolutely Sick and Tired of Seeing the Bec De Corbin as the most OverPowered weapon in the game, while The Danish Greatsword remains nerfed into the ground where it has been for nearly a year now. :mad:
The Bec itself has been widely regarded as the most Overpowered weapon in the game for well over a year (definitely as long as I've been playing) for good reason.
But lets not take my opinion on the matter. Lets do a Side By Side Comparison of the two different weapons. (I use the Danish as the counter argument because it's what I first started playing with.)
COST = The Bec De Corbin costs 2/3 the price(This is Huge) of what the Danish Greatsword does (10,000 vs 15,000); which gives it incredibly cheap repair bills for the sheer power of the weapon.
SPEED = The Bec De Corbin is 1 Point Faster than the Danish. (93 compared to 92)
LENGTH = The Bec De Corbin is 4 Points Shorter than the Danish. (120 compared to 124)
DAMAGE = Both of the Bec De Corbin's Attacks are classified as Piercing Damage (This is Also Huge), making it the perfect Tank Killing weapon in the entire game.
Danish = 24 Thrust (Pierce), 40 Swing (Cut)
Bec De Corbin = 26 Thrust (Pierce), 34 Swing (Pierce)
WEIGHT = The Bec De Corbin is 0.3 points heavier than the Danish
The Danish's damage has a slight edge over unarmored opponents, but considering most unarmored foes are going to die in 1 or 2 hits regardless, the argument that this offset more than makes up the blatant imbalance of the weapon is complete and utter B.S. I would gladly switch the Danish's damage portfolios with the Bec De Corbin any day of the week, but I doubt Bec users would ever take that deal.
So when looking at the two weapons from an objective viewpoint:
The Bec De Corbin has 2 Large Benefits over the Danish. These are 1. Cost (2/3 the price of the danish) and 2. Damage Portfolio
The Danish Greatsword has No Large Benefits over the Bec De Corbin. It is a sizably inferior weapon by comparison for a vastly higher price.
Judging by how ridiculous both weapons stack up against one another, it is highly apparent that both need to be tweaked to meet somewhere near the middle of the plane of balance.
I really have no idea how the Bec has been allowed to be so completely overpowered for so long. It's hard for me to even believe the weapon used to have crushthrough. :rolleyes: Seriously, what the hell?
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Hello my friend. You have been looking at the numbers. Unfortunately you can't compare 2hander and polearm numbers. The biggest difference is with length: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,25086.0.html
This proves that when comparing polearms with 2handers or 1handers, you can roughly subtract 25-30 in length from the polearm length stats to get the effective length. So the Bec De Corbin in reality has 90-95 length. That's pretty short. When it comes to speed the differences aren't that big, the Bec is actually slightly faster. However the Bec is shorter than a simple one handed sword, and is of course slower than it.
Then comes the polearm animations. They are a lot slower than one hand and 2hand ones. To have any speed with a polearm you either have to get a very long weapon (glaive) or a uber fast and light one (quarter staff), or a mix of light and long (long hafted blade). However, the bec is none of those things.
When it comes to damage, the Danish deals more damage on average. I tested the melee weapon damage calculator with 15 STR, 5 PS, 150 wpf, enemy 40 armor (which is average of people on cRPG I'd say) and the Danish had average 27,5 while the Bec had 27 on average. I call that pretty equal.
So this is why you don't see hordes of people with Bec De Corbin in game owning ass, but you do see hordes of people using Danish owning ass. I have tried a lot of weapons and playstyles, and in my opinion the best polearm/2handed weapon out there is actually the Danish Greatsword. It's only drawback is it's cost, but sell one loompoint and you can has it forever :)
I would also like to add at the end that the best tankkiller is the morningstar. 38 piercing damage and bonus against shield makes it extremely good vs shields and can cut through armor pretty well. It's speed is about the same as the Bec, but the length is unfortunately 10 shorter.
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First off, there is no way in hell the bec has a range of less than 100, I use a longsword which has a length of 106 and the bec definitely outranges it. I know from experience
Second, 40 armor isnt plate (especially when its loomed). The Danish may do more damage on players wearing non loomed chainmail, but get back to me on characters wearing loomed plate. Big Difference, especially for 2/3 the price. It's faster, too.
Third, nobody in their right mind would consider the Danish the best 2 handed weapon. You could do 100 polls and it would never win. I see far more successful players using the bec than the danish. You could do a 100 polls on which polearm is best and I'm personally guaranteeing you that the bec would win the majority of those handedly.
Fourth, the speed issue and short length make the morningstar quite inferior to the bec. The morningstar may do slightly more damage but its advantage is far outweighed by the lack of range and speed it misses on the bec.
Go look how many Masterwork Danish Greatswords are being offered on the market and get back to me. At least 6 of them are from different users. I got tired of checking the owners after I counted that high.
People want to get rid of their Danish's because they are pretty much obsolete and not worth the costs.
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How about we nerv everything untill all the weapons and armour are exactly the same! Sounds
bad good right?
Lower the price of the sword. Problem solved.
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First off, there is no way in hell the bec has a range of less than 100, I use a longsword which has a length of 106 and the bec definitely outranges it. I know from experience
1. You fail at timing your attacks, if you get outranged like that.
Second, 40 armor isnt plate (especially when its loomed). The Danish may do more damage on players wearing non loomed chainmail, but get back to me on characters wearing loomed plate. Big Difference, especially for 2/3 the price. It's faster, too.
2. Okay.
Third, nobody in their right mind would consider the Danish the best 2 handed weapon. You could do 100 polls and it would never win. I see far more successful players using the bec than the danish. You could do a 100 polls on which polearm is best and I'm personally guaranteeing you that the bec would win the majority of those handedly.
3. Wow, really? Must be a NA problem, every other hurr-durr-i-swing-big-weapon guy over here uses the Danish and the German, despite their price. Also, LHB and GLA are far more popular polearms.
Fourth, the speed issue and short length make the morningstar quite inferior to the bec. The morningstar may do slightly more damage but its advantage is far outweighed by the lack of range and speed it misses on the bec.
4. Morningstar has 2h animations and great weight, which give it its own advantages.
Go look how many Masterwork Danish Greatswords are being offered on the market and get back to me. At least 6 of them are from different users. I got tired of checking the owners after I counted that high.
People want to get rid of their Danish's because they are pretty much obsolete and not worth the costs.
5. Or perhaps that is because so many people use them and there is demand for them, whilst some people maybe, just maybe, get tired of playing the same way as everyone else and want to try something different? Really, using the market as an argument for anything is retarded.
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With secondary mode your stab with Danish-German swords become godlike. IRL your swings will don't bother anyone in plate armor. It's all about thrust.
Two handed Warhammer was ideal weapon for medium-heavy armored target. I don't know why dev's put this weapon in polearm class and call it Bec de Corbin.
And stats of polearm warhammer in native is:
Weight - 3,5
Reach - 138
Speed - 84
Swing - 38 blunt
Thrust - 38 pierce
knockdown
And you can't compare reach of this weapons. Just do not make builds like 36\3
P.S.
Long hafted spiked Mace is better than Bec
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+3 Morning star??? Way more brute killing power, and it can jelly fish.
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Buff swashbucklers
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Silly thread.
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Gotta say, the bec is quite popular on NA, dunno how bad its for you guys across the pond.
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Bec on EU servers? Maybe one guy on the whole server has it. These days Bec is very rare on EU servers.
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take a look for yourselves
Free Market at Work
Maybe they know something you don't?
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dont remember seeing it at least 2 months
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Really, using the market as an argument for anything is retarded.
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Where are all the trades looking for the superior Bec de Corbin? German, bastard sword, barmace, claymore, armor, no Bec de Corbin though.
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better yet, lets get a look at the offers for the Danish
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If a product is good, demand will show it.
If a product is shit, supply will be high as people try to sell or trade out.
Now, we've seen the entire legit spectrum of supply and demand of the Danish Greatsword.
Of the four people looking for a Masterwork Danish, 2 are offering ridiculously low bids compared to todays market prices for your average MW weapon (especially considering the unloomed Danish isn't cheap). The other 2 are trading up from the Danish's little German brother, but are still expecting to be compensated by at least 50,000 gold.
You don't need a Master's Degree in business to figure out this product is shit that nobody wants.
You just need a brain with a little common sense and basic intelligence.
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So, how exactly did you figure it out, then? :rolleyes:
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Lol wut, supply and demand has nothing to do with the product being good or not.
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No, dismissing massive free market evidence that runs blatantly contradictory to your entire argument is purposeful ignorance.
Every bit of evidence I've shown has all pointed toward the fact that nobody really wants a MW Danish Greatsword.
You can call it "retarded" all day long, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.
The proof is in the pudding.
The Market does not lie. At least not with numbers like that.
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Lol wut, supply and demand has nothing to do with the product being good or not.
If a dozen people are looking to trade or sell a particular item and nobody is really looking to acquire the same said item, what do you think that means? Honestly?
Is that just coincidence to you?
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So, how exactly did you figure it out, then? :rolleyes:
To be quite honest, I have a master's degree in business administration.
But like I said, all you need is some common coupled with the view of those pictures I posted of the market.
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People believe what they believe. The Bec is alright, but in no way superior to top tier 2 handers. 'The market' is no indication what so ever to of it being unbalanced or OP. It's just flavor of the month, cookie-cutter standard stuff.
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master's degree in business administration.
Stopped reading
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I fail to see the connection between people selling the danish over people wanting the "overpowered" bec.
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People have been trying to sell their Danish's for months now, and the market continues to saturate. This isn't a fluke or a sudden new fad sweeping the nation.
People "believe what they believe" because they test the weapon out or realize by looking at statistics and their repair bills that the weapon is in fact, overpriced and not worth it.
A masterwork loom is a month or two investmen. People don't just accidentally fall into it one day. It's a cold, calculated, methodical process.
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To be quite honest, I have a master's degree in business administration.
But like I said, all you need is some common coupled with the view of those pictures I posted of the market.
:D I love it when prejudices get confirmed.
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I'd really love to see some hard counter evidence that isn't just "nuh uh" or "well, thats just your opinion, man" but I don't believe that will be happening tonight.
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...
The reason people want to sell their greatswords is because there are so many of them loomed that their value has become quite low.
Nowadays most people are quite content with their looms and are either trying to make money off the market or are looking for *interesting* looms to try out. The Danish fails in both those aspect since it's a. probably the most common loom, and b. holds a low value, due to its abundance. With a masters in business administration (yes, I'm still kind of giggling) you should understand the basic principles of supply and demand no?
A lot of the greatsword looms come from the time before the market feature. No one in their right mind would loom a greatsword or even a weapon right now except for personal use and therefore I'm not surprised at all to see a lot of greatswords being offered up on the market.
tl:dr Greatswords are not bad weapons in the game, but they're horrible on the market due to their abundance.
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I'd really love to see some hard counter evidence that isn't just "nuh uh" or "well, thats just your opinion, man" but I don't believe that will be happening tonight.
In your first post you say something about superior weapon length from bec, you got a very polite and informative answer trying to explain how length is not length in this game. Your answer is: "I use a longsword which has a length of 106 and the bec definitely outranges it. I know from experience" Then you start some crazy-ass argumention to proof the UP-ness of Danish by the demand of MW Danishs on marketplace! And the list goes on.
It just doesn't seem worth the effort argumenting with you.
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It just doesn't seem worth the effort argumenting with you.
Now you're being a little too kind I think :wink:
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Not an EU-problem, no one uses Bec here. And 2h outreach a lot of polearms, even longer ones.
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Now you're being a little too kind I think :wink:
:oops: german english fail. I meant argue, does argumenting mean something? Probably not.
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The reason people want to sell their greatswords is because there are so many of them loomed that their value has become quite low.
This. Since the danish is one of the best melee weapons in the game it's been heirloomed by so many people that the amount of heirloomed danish greatswords flowing the market became quite insane. Due to it's popularity it's price has fallen, since you have so many options of getting it. Rare and good weapons = Expensive. Very common and good weapons = Cheaper. It's just common sense that people won't pay over the top for the danish. Also, with the amount of people having heirloomed danishes it's perfectly reasonable that a lot wants to trade it away. Out of the amount of danish users it's only a very small percentage that has a danish on the market for something else.
Also, I haven't seen a Bec on EU for the last couple of months. Clearly OP and FotM. :lol:
I'll check the length of Bec, Longsword and Danish according to this man: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,25086.0.html
Bec
120 Stab
135 Overhead
143 Right
135 Left
Danish
189 Stab (+69)
169 Overhead (+34)
154 Right (+11)
154 Left (+19)
Longsword
171 stab (+51)
151 Overhead (+16)
136 Right (-7)
136 Left (+1)
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:oops: german english fail. I meant argue, does argumenting mean something? Probably not.
Nono, it's just that arguing with someone implies that they're doing some arguing as well... And calling what this guy is doing "arguing" is stretching it imo :P
T'was a joke
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Nono, it's just that arguing with someone implies that they're doing some arguing as well... And calling what this guy is doing "arguing" is stretching it imo :P
T'was a joke
double fail then :D, it seemed such a fail word bolded.
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lol
(Semtex)
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better yet, lets get a look at the offers for the Danish
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(http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/danishinruins2.png/)
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If a product is good, demand will show it.
If a product is shit, supply will be high as people try to sell or trade out.
Now, we've seen the entire legit spectrum of supply and demand of the Danish Greatsword.
Of the four people looking for a Masterwork Danish, 2 are offering ridiculously low bids compared to todays market prices for your average MW weapon (especially considering the unloomed Danish isn't cheap). The other 2 are trading up from the Danish's little German brother, but are still expecting to be compensated by at least 50,000 gold.
You don't need a Master's Degree in business to figure out this product is shit that nobody wants.
You just need a brain with a little common sense and basic intelligence.
This guy is obviously trolling us because this picture is fake. You could figure that out easily looking at his previous post containing pictures but I know this for a fact because today I bought Miaodao for 1.2 million and second one was 1.3 million...
Bad paint skills bro, try harder.
Hint: That offer MW Danish + 10K Gold for MW German is gone as well :P
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Every bit of evidence I've shown has all pointed toward the fact that nobody really wants a MW Danish Greatsword.
It's not that no one wants Danish GS because it's a bad sword. No one really wants Danish because almost every 2H player already have one lol. I'm pretty sure MW Danish GS is the most common heirloomed item in game.
I've exchanged mine for MW German today, not because it's better than Danish GS. Never liked German GS really, regular model texture looks so fugly imho but Final Boss changed that and MW version of German GS looks beautiful compared to MW Danish GS which is just meh. That's the main reason why I traded it.
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3rd post in a row and completely off-topic:
Paul, please stop lurking.
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Sorry to interrupt your QUAD POST attempt but..
STATISTIC TIEM!!1
On EU1 Battle 0.37% of overall kills damage are done by the Bec and 5.60% by the Danish. EU2 Siege has 0.95% Bec and 5.78% Danish kills damage. Data used is about 1 month old and clearly shows that EU metagame sucks.
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what dezi and gurnisson said. furthermore, the bec is one of the lowest trading polearms out there.
in NA you have a few good bec users because of your black monster and his copycats, but seriously, if someone spends enough time with one weapon he can become great with most of them.
all that being said, i do think the bec is an awesome weapon. i just see better alternatives.
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Sorry to interrupt your QUAD POST attempt but..
STATISTIC TIEM!!1
On EU1 Battle 0.37% of overall kills are done by the Bec and 5.60% by the Danish. EU2 Siege has 0.95% Bec and 5.78% Danish kills. Data used is about 1 month old and clearly shows that EU metagame sucks.
Just out of interest - how many % of kills are done by the German GS?
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Just out of interest - how many % of kills are done by the German GS?
more than 50%
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Just out of interest - how many % of kills are done by the German GS?
For battle it's 4.44% and for siege 2.79%. Both are the top two 2handers. Oh, and it's damage and not kills. Forgot about that.
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So, we can assume it is somewhat similar on other battle and siege servers, whilst probably being quite a bit higher on the few melee-only servers.
That is two weapons accounting for ~10% of all damage dealt. Am i the only one seeing something wrong in this?
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Are these statistics made up by devs to further their agenda? Are they wrong out of their incompetence? Which is more likely? (I'm just asking questions)
Seriously though, according to that 10% of the kills on battle are made by the two greatswords. That seems wrong. Might wanna check if your stat collection = 100% accurate.
Also, if you are gonna nurf em, tell me beforehand so I can sell mine.
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Long dagger is one of the most carried weapons, I demand a damage and speed nurf!
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Are these statistics made up by devs to further their agenda? Are they wrong out of their incompetence? Which is more likely? (I'm just asking questions)
Seriously though, according to that 10% of the kills on battle are made by the two greatswords. That seems wrong. Might wanna check if your stat collection = 100% accurate.
Also, if you are gonna nurf em, tell me beforehand so I can sell mine.
Most people who use greatswords know what they are doing, have decent armor and can block. No wonder they deal a lot of damage. I guess now many people think that main reason for success of those players are their weapons and not skill. They can nerf it for all I care, I'm gonna use spammy Miaodao instead of it and kill people just as well.
It's basically same old bullshit coming from Paul and cmpx. They are probably planing to buff paularms (paulaxes), again...
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We have an agenda?
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Didn't you get the PM about 2h supremacy? I'm sure everyone got one..
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Now I'm interested to hear how big % of damage was done by heavy lance :)... Hmm wait a second.. No don't post it in this thread :D. (Poor infantry starts crying I bet)
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The Danish is slower though than the German even though it has the same speedrating.
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We have an agenda?
Welt-Polearm-Verschwörung
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I've been Polearms for two Gens, and 2H for the other three Gens, not a huge amount of experience compared to most of the folks here - only been playing since last August; however, I can tell you that comparitively, I'll take pretty much any 2H wep I've tried over the Bec. Recently, I've been trying the Bec again to see if I could make it work, but man, it's got some huge disadvantages.
Here's what I can gather from using it so far:
Pros:
- Decent thrust dmg coupled with great swing dmg. Awesome against heavy armor.
- Pole-stun, obviously.
- Not a horribly expensive weapon to repair.
- One of the fastest polearms to use (93 spd vanilla; 94 spd loomed)
- Better than most polearms in tight spaces.
Cons:
- Gets out-ranged by almost everything. It's the same length as a Short Spear. Most times I try to stab a 2H-er or even lots of 1H-ers, they stab me instead.
- Same on the swing. You gotta just about face-hug someone if you don't wanna be outranged. Fighting back-pedalers with superior length weps can be a bitch.
- Slower than most 2H-ers and 1H-ers so you can easily be spammed if you don't have a good Agi build (mine is 15 atm which was probably a mistake for Polearms).
- No bonus vs shielders.
- Seems to clip on every-fucking-thing; the ground, the stairs, the wall, the ceiling, other people, the trees, the sky, the list goes on.
- Breaks damn near every godam round. Not THAT expensive but shit, 756g every time whether you win or lose can still suck. None of my other gear breaks half as much as this thing, and I've got 146 WPF in it.
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For battle it's 4.44% and for siege 2.79%. Both are the top two 2handers. Oh, and it's damage and not kills. Forgot about that.
Oh can we have stats for all weapons please? Would like to know how often Light Lance is used compared to other weapons :D
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Oh can we have stats for all weapons please? Would like to know how often Light Lance is used compared to other weapons :D
They're not going to, simply because of the inevitable shitstorm.
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hate it when people are stupid and post crap and after that hides their post, bundle of stickss, all of you
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Silly thread.
Maybe it makes sense for that backwards continent. Goretooth still using a Bec ?
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I nominate SpookIsland as the official NA spokesperson.
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@OP's posts
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They're not going to, simply because of the inevitable shitstorm.
Statistics would be interesting things to hear, but there is always an asshole who draws conclusions with hesitation and then implies that "something must be done to asdasdasd because these statistics clearly show blablabla and that means wololoo etc etc..". There is always atleast one asshole who does that... And the other assholes follow him... And then comes shitstorm.
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"something must be done to asdasdasd because these statistics clearly show blablabla and that means wololoo etc etc.."
That made me lololol.
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That made me lololol.
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Maybe it makes sense for that backwards continent. Goretooth still using a Bec ?
I'm a archer now
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Spook, the 2h animations are far superior. I'm sure they aren't perfectly balanced, but that one difference is what drives up the greatsword's cost. You can argue all day that the animations are not superior, but you'd be wrong :|
The length of the danish is also a big advantage.
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The animations being superior is debatable. They're longer, yes. Superior? That's far from a fact.
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The animations being superior is debatable. They're longer, yes. Superior? That's far from a fact.
wouldaya care to elaborate ol' chap?
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The animations being superior is debatable. They're longer, yes. Superior? That's far from a fact.
QFT, stop using your opinion as a factual argument.
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Not many people use the bec on NA either. The only thing going for it is that is has 34 pierce and over 100 length. The only way to get those pierce numbers is with the steel pick, and it's short as fuck. 93 speed isn't fast, every 1h basically is faster. And almost every other 2h sword out reaches the bec (if you include the animation lenght, which you obviously need to do).
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wouldaya care to elaborate ol' chap?
Well, like said before in another thread, polearms are much more prone to having stuttering, jerky animations than 2h. Good duellists are also, on average, much less used to polearm animations than 2h animations (a metagame advantage). And polearm rightslash can be made to hit even before the animation, so it looks almost instant. Perfect for hiltslashing. Then there's the thrust, which overall is likely worse than 2h stab, but it has its own specific advantages over 2h stab as well.
And no, I'm not asking for a nerf or a buff for any weapons.
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And no, I'm not asking for a nerf or a buff for any weapons.
I was actually only interested in what you had to say, dont worry ^^
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Yes, that was mostly to stop any polearm fanatics from frothing at the mouth and writing all the advantages of 2h (which has many as well) thinking I'm out to nerf polearms and buff 2h.
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ya, wise move i guess. fanatics everywhere.
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Indeed, depends on how you define superior.
Polearms have really clippy animations in comparison to most weapons, especially noticeable with extremely long/fast weapons, which fucks some people up.
2h have really good animations length-wise and good sweetspots + I find hilting much more viable with 2h (even though they nerfed it :()
1h have, imho, really confusing animations, that look the same and with the speed of 1h make them hard to block (not that anything is really hard to block nowadays...) + the leftswing which is ultra-fast and hits the head more often than not.
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Most people who use greatswords know what they are doing
What kind of bs is dat??
Anyway.. I'm ALL FOR MOAR STATISTICS FOR TO FEED THE MOB! These forums are dying! We need more life and opinions!
PUBLISH THEM.
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And polearm rightslash can be made to hit even before the animation, so it looks almost instant.
Is that just turning into it, or is it something else [and if so, how can I exploit this?].
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Is that just turning into it, or is it something else [and if so, how can I exploit this?].
Turning does not seem to have anything to do with it. Most of the times I've done it is when moving in the same direction as my swing. Granted I can't do this reliably. (My point was you can turn all you want won't help you exploit it).
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Tor should write a guide about how he does his thang.
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"Tor's guide, how to backpedal spam"
Collaboration with DaveUKR
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Is that just turning into it, or is it something else [and if so, how can I exploit this?].
Like Siiem said, seems to happen most often when you move left and right slash (right-to-left).
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When I was pole I got the insta-swing occasionally. It was cool when it resulted in a kill; makes you feel like a Jedi or something. I always just figured it was packet loss, not some trick.
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hahah, good thread +1
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NA got over the bec a long time ago.
Only spookisland never let the hate go.
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Thats amazing, but xant is correct in every one of his posts.
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Xant is always correct in every one of his posts.
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Only 23.46% of the times.
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NA metagame switched from the Bec a long time ago to longer poleaxs and fucking pikes
And judging by those statistics the great swords could use a nerf so there might be more diversity in 2Hs
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Or other swords could use a buff...
Because greatswords aren't worse than top tier polearms in any way. Greatswords have their advantages, poleaxes have their advantages.
There is way more useful polearms than 2H weapons.
Range is the king of this game, after comes speed. Balanced weapons are just ok. Slightly buffing longsword, heavy bastard sword, bastard sword, heavy great sword, dadao and especially twohanded sword could result in more diversity. Bastard swords could be buffed by adding one more slash damage and making them one slot.
Or buff 2H axes and clubs...
And no, Katana shouldn't get another buff. Actually it should be crappy compared to 2H euro swords like Wakizashi is compared to 1H euro swords.
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We mostly agree Leshma :)
Im for sword diveristy too! While having nothing against katanas.