cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Aldwyn on February 28, 2011, 11:21:02 pm
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Even while wearing chainmail or even transitional you can be one hit but throwing lances if you're moving towards them. They look ridiculous, five foot long lances that do ridiculous amounts of damage, are extremely accurate and even do bonus damage against shields. Javelins and throwing spears/jarids are a bit OP as well, but not as ridiculous as throwing lances. I just think they should be removed from the game. Who's with me?!?
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extremely accurate?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
ever tried using them?
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extremely accurate?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
ever tried using them?
my thoughts exactly. They are by far, hands down, the most inaccurate weapon in the game. An archer with 13 power draw, 1 wpf, and the most inaccurate bow in the game would still be more accurate than a dedicated thrower with a lance.
They also don't kill more heavily armored opponents in 1 hit unless you are 100% strength built.
But hey, plenty of weapons can 1 hit an opponent easily. Why crack down on throwing lances?
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It's accurate enough at close ranges where its normally used. I can't count the times my horse has been 1 hit from 20 feet away.
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extremely accurate?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
ever tried using them?
+1
Here's a more accurate and complete description of them. Some of the positives include their great damage that often one hit kill all but the heaviest armored/ironfleshed opponents. They are quite fun to use and againist slow 2h/polearm users with massive swords that others run from, lance throwers thrive. They are also great for guarding narrow pathways, taking out cav charges and getting people like Aldwyn to rage or at least make complaints. The negatives however include the low amount of lances(2) per stack for a very high repair price(547g). They are very inaccurate beyond about 15-25 feet. They are quite slow so againist a heavy shielder you may break their shield but often wont get the kill unless you time your throw at the perfect moment when they raise their sword againist you. Since it is mainly a strength build (21 minimum, though pure throwers often go higher to ensure 1 hit kills) you also lack agility. If you get hit by a lance from and real distance consider it your unlucky day.
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It's accurate enough at close ranges where its normally used. I can't count the times my horse has been 1 hit from 20 feet away.
Wait, this is about your horse getting 1 hit? :rolleyes:
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My horse being one hit even as it runs in the opposite direction is just a result of the overpoweredness of throwing lances.
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+1 to removal of patriot missiles
Everything about them is insanely rediculous. The thought that making a rediculously oversized javalin will increase penetrating power is rediculous. Watching people run around with throwing lances charged is extremely painful and getting one thrown at you when the head of it already touching you (most often going through you) is annoying. Generally it's a stupid notion that a weapon, thrown through the air, will have better damage than one stabbed through an enemy with the full weight of the user
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My horse being one hit even as it runs in the opposite direction is just a result of the overpoweredness of throwing lances.
My rouncy has taken 3 when moving in the opposite direction. Is something wrong with your horse?
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the poll results, SO FAR, say everything you need to know...nerf or remove.
I've been in blk armour, 21 STR 7 IF, full health, 1 hitted.
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+1 to removal of patriot missiles
Everything about them is insanely rediculous. The thought that making a rediculously oversized javalin will increase penetrating power is rediculous. Watching people run around with throwing lances charged is extremely painful and getting one thrown at you when the head of it already touching you (most often going through you) is annoying. Generally it's a stupid notion that a weapon, thrown through the air, will have better damage than one stabbed through an enemy with the full weight of the user
"The pilum (plural pila) was a javelin commonly used by the Roman army in ancient times. It was generally about two metres long overall, consisting of an iron shank about 7 mm in diameter and 60 cm long with pyramidal head. The shank was joined to the wooded shaft by either a socket or a flat tang."
Hhhmmmm...
Damage could use a slight nerf, but on my PT 7 lancer I've failed to 1 hit my roommate who was wearing a tunic over mail with 6 IF. I wonder if all the 1 hit stories are actual one hits. I do agree with the close ranged throwing though, that is just stupid.
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it should share the same fate as the other "super" weapons we had - remove/change
lance of compensation - removed
looney toone axe - removed
cookie/tears - changed
throwing lances - still avaible
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Difference between those weapons, is lances actually have balancing downsides. Otherwise there would be a lot more people using them. Maybe things are differenton the EU servers, but there's rarely more than a couple people at a time using lances on NA servers.
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"The pilum (plural pila) was a javelin commonly used by the Roman army in ancient times. It was generally about two metres long overall, consisting of an iron shank about 7 mm in diameter and 60 cm long with pyramidal head. The shank was joined to the wooded shaft by either a socket or a flat tang."
Pila were used to disable shields by making them too cumbersome to wield. They were not designed to kill people but to break phalanxes.
Throwing lances are stupid, they need considerable balancing or to be removed (or remade into the role of a Pilum using on-hit weight adding triggers at the cost of making them 30 damage and a bit more accurate. Seriously it would be cool to have something tactical like that rather than an "lol insta-kill no skill".)
It isn't that they are accurate but how inaccurate they are which makes them only usable in close to melee range. And oh yes do they one hit kill. Sure, there are times when people survive but that is generally rare or a high HP build being hit by a low PT thrower with no speed bonus.
I'm a thrower and with 10 PT I can one-shot Wallace and he is a super heavy tin can. I should not one-hit a guy with 70+ body armor and 10+ IronFlesh unless it is a headshot.
They don't currently serve any game use for balance or an interesting gimmick like "ohoho it adds tons of weight to a shield like a pilum so it makes it too heavy to use".
The usual arguments in favor of the throwing lance come along these few points so I'll just counter them now:
1. You only get 2 per stack. : You can pick them up. That is 2 dead things or destroyed shields. per stack. You can have 4 stacks.
2. They are really expensive. : Uh yeah, So is wearing plate. The top tier of everything is really expensive. Except you can onehit guys wearing plate which costs way more.
3. They have terrible accuracy : Not a reason to give them sympathy but rather a reason why they are so bad for the game. And due to it being an inaccurate just-be-close weapon that means it requires little skill to use effectively, and, more player skill produces no rewards.
Oh, how can I forget this too: They are a weapon that 1 hits enemies with little to no danger to himself. It is a high reward - no risk weapon. Every other weapon that can come even anywhere close to the one hit capabilities of a throwing lances are High risk to the user.
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3. They have terrible accuracy : Not a reason to give them sympathy but rather a reason why they are so bad for the game. And due to it being an inaccurate just-be-close weapon that means it requires little skill to use effectively, and, more player skill produces no rewards.
..Yes yes yes. It really does not make you feel better when you know you just got 1 hit killed by something that can't be blocked, ESPECIALLY when that thing is horribly inaccurate so basically, you didn't die because the other player was good, you died because of luck.
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Hmm, two chances to hit, a monstrous upkeep due to being 10K+ for the base cost, required 7PD. I think I am content with them when compared to the rest of the throwers.
While throwing as a whole should be nerfed a bit, the throwing lances are not that special to be singled out.
I almost never see people spam them due to only having two throws, more often then not they find a large group of enemies or wait up close to chuck it. I would hardly call that luck, and more "Waiting for a good opportunity."
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Damage could use a slight nerf, but on my PT 7 lancer I've failed to 1 hit my roommate who was wearing a tunic over mail with 6 IF. I wonder if all the 1 hit stories are actual one hits. I do agree with the close ranged throwing though, that is just stupid.
No, they are true. It's rare someone in mid mail survives them. But throwing seems to be most affected by position and speed.
But like warcat says they have some downsides and are rarely used. Heavy throwing axes do half the damage against 50 armor, but come in twice the stack size, for half the price and are accurate (with same PT) and spamable.
All throwing should be taken down a notch imo. They could get a new role with special anti-archer throwers (shield + darts), anti-shield (axes) and anti-cav (javelins) but currently it just seems once you have enough PT everything is good against everyoneone. Most importantly reduce spamability, either ammo count or speed.
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All the whining from this thread convinced me to go play with my throwing lances again.
I have a nice stack of gold lying around and since I play with paper tissues for armour anyway, I'm sure I can upkeep 4 stacks of lances just fine for the next month or so.
They're perfect anti cav material. 1 hit for the horsie and 1 hit to kill the rider on the ground next to you.
I'm surprised you didn't mention jarids. I get double the amount to spam, which costs me less and 1 shots nearly everyone but the heavy armour high IF people with 10 PT.
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When i was pure str i had the pleasure of surviving two throwing lances and killing the thrower. At 7 PT i wouldnt be concerned. Above that i would be.
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Meh, you never survived more than one of mine.
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I have screens proving otherwise.
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At least make it 1 lance/stack so you can have max 4 lances, it's ridiculous to have 8 possible 1hit-kills every round.
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Usually they have 2-4 stacks of throwing lances, and if they miss one they can pick it up. Example: I see an ats guy with huscarl shield and go to fight him :) *backpeddle pull out throwing lance* *dodge one* *throw* *one hit in chainmail* *picks up other throwing lance, still has 3*
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I won't even discuss it from game balance perspective. Throwing Lances are silly as much as anime-Flamberge. Remove throwing lances, nerf Flamberge range - stats are not historical, it's silly that spears are so short and swords so long.
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Throwing lances are like the great mauls of ranged weapons - everyone hates getting killed by them, but they're hardly gamebreaking. Throwing lances are less effective overall than jarids for a dedicated thrower, and even with pure powerthrow, the average huscarl shield will soak up a quarter to a half of your potential killing power before you even have a chance at the user. I'd also point out that their efficiency is inversely related to the current server population.
Remove them because they're silly and annoying? Perhaps...
Remove them because they're causing serious balance problems? I don't think so.
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Throwing lances are like the great mauls of ranged weapons...
Wrong. Great maul is really short and slow:
weapon length 68
spd rtng 80
Almost all (or even all) players can avoid\dodge this attack by side-teps or back-steps, or by counter-attacking (because of faster weapon).
But those lances are ultimate weapon ATM.
As said before - you can't even reach thrower. While he just eliminate your shield in 1-2 lances and kill you with a next one.
I have not suggestion how to solve this, but 100% what it must be fixed (somehow).
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Even while wearing chainmail or even transitional you can be one hit but throwing lances if you're moving towards them. They look ridiculous, five foot long lances that do ridiculous amounts of damage, are extremely accurate and even do bonus damage against shields. Javelins and throwing spears/jarids are a bit OP as well, but not as ridiculous as throwing lances. I just think they should be removed from the game. Who's with me?!?
One hit? Yes. Just about everything else you said was false. Not going to bother reading the rest of this whine thread. Throwing isn't OP. Throwing got nerfed HARD in the big patch, and pretty much sucks now. There are just so many more throwers because it no longer pays to be a specialist, and throwing is an easy fit for a sidearm to a melee player. Return the WPF costs to what they were pre-patch, and you will see less ranged spam. Without the bonus WPF from retirement, the old WPF costs would not be imbalanced.
On the topic of lances, they are SUPER inaccurate, even with lots of PT and proficiency. The cost is absurdly high, and you only get 2 in a stack. So yeah, they one-shot people in mail, if you can manage to hit them. But hitting them requires that you use the force, pray to all the gods of all the religions, and pay off game developers.
I'm not a thrower, but I had a pure thrower when the patch hit. I stopped playing a thrower because of how badly they ALREADY nerfed throwing. When I get hit and killed by a throwing lance, I simply smile to myself, knowing that the next 10 times he throws at me, he will likely miss his mark.
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I have screens proving otherwise.
PICS! Or it didn't happen...
Anyway, I agree with Heroins post.
I hardly play my thrower these days because it's hardly any fun. Everytime you kill someone without a headshot or long range throw you get called a noskilled noob.
But everyone once in a while I like playing my thrower and kill people with throwing axes/lances.
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OMG, dont say that throwing isnt op, because actually it IS. When i had thrower (postpatch!) I always carried 1 stack of lances and 3 stacks of javelins - simply, 2 lances to throw at the best of the best, such as Phyrex, Georges etc and javelins for others.
1hit1kill with javelins was possible, guess what dmg i got with lances ;)
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One hit? Yes. Just about everything else you said was false. Not going to bother reading the rest of this whine thread. Throwing isn't OP. Throwing got nerfed HARD in the big patch, and pretty much sucks now. There are just so many more throwers because it no longer pays to be a specialist, and throwing is an easy fit for a sidearm to a melee player.
+1
However, it's seem the population of thrower is beginning to dwindle at the profit of crossbow.
Throwing is good right now, it's the best ranged at short range like it should be (unlike pre-patch) and i much prefer dying to a ranged guy that is standing a few meter from me than a xbow or archer that i don't even see.
Overall i get more killed by xbow or archer than throwing.
1hit/kill is only possible with jav on a agi guy with very low armor or low levels and 8+ PT, so it's very rare. With 11PT most people survived my Jarrid...
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So this is a complaint about being 1-hit from a cavalry player?
Fine, remove throwing lances, but also remove all speed bonuses applied to weapons while on a horse. Fair is fair. No more 1 hit ninja cavalry.
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1hit1kill with javelins was possible, guess what dmg i got with lances ;)
Ofc, you just don't know if the guy wasn't hit by someone else allready.
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So this is a complaint about being 1-hit from a cavalry player?
Fine, remove throwing lances, but also remove all speed bonuses applied to weapons while on a horse. Fair is fair. No more 1 hit ninja cavalry.
Was made by cav guy, but most of the people whining about them are 2 handers/polearmers that though they were safe when archers were made to shoot foam arrows. Anyone decent at using shields usually gets a free kill alone with a lance thrower. Takes 3-4 to destroy a Huscarl shield.
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The lance throwing usually has friends. And not everyone uses top tier viking shields...
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Hmm, two chances to hit, a monstrous upkeep due to being 10K+ for the base cost, required 7PD. I think I am content with them when compared to the rest of the throwers.
While throwing as a whole should be nerfed a bit, the throwing lances are not that special to be singled out.
I almost never see people spam them due to only having two throws, more often then not they find a large group of enemies or wait up close to chuck it. I would hardly call that luck, and more "Waiting for a good opportunity."
+1 you have changed my thoughts though not entirely. If the model on throwing lances is not changed then it deserves to be removed because atm it just looks like something you would only find in a comic book. And in addition the damage would need to be reduced also like you said.
BUT THE MODEL MUST CHANGE!!!
and to cav players, complaining about your horse being taken down by one fransica is one thing [completely rediculous] but you must remember that due to your unarmored horses you are considered light cavalry and thus are will be at disadvantage against an aware opponent
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Roman pilum were 5 and a half to seven feet long, depending on if you counted the 60cm shank or not, and the year they were made. Considering at the highest point over 30 legions were using this at the peak, I am content with there being a real-life example of size.
From what I can see, the throwing lances look comparable.
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except throwing lances are symetrical and do not at all look like something that could be thrown easily. Pilium were asymetrical and generally awesome looking. The point where the throwing lance is held (in the middle) means that an excessive amount of it projects in front of the user thus making it look rediculous. Where as depictions of romans show them holding it closer to the head of the pilium
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Roman pilum were 5 and a half to seven feet long, depending on if you counted the 60cm shank or not
Except that entire polearm class (and these lances are in secondary mode a polearm) is in this game 2x+ shorter than in real life.
You're ok with throwing lances being as they are? Very well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_%28weapon%29
I'd like a 22 feet long pike.
You may also check spears. Spear in this game looks like a walking stick. Spears in real life were much longer, which was entire point of a spear.
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Except that entire polearm class (and these lances are in secondary mode a polearm) is in this game 2x+ shorter than in real life.
You're ok with throwing lances being as they are? Very well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_%28weapon%29
I'd like a 22 feet long pike.
You may also check spears. Spear in this game looks like a walking stick. Spears in real life were much longer, which was entire point of a spear.
Yes, I am fully aware of the reach, and I would first like to point out that a 22 foot long pike would be worthless in many maps (Like all the castle maps) when close in fighting is done, so I am ok. If done properly, a pike that long would deal little to no damage against someone next to you. Actually, make it where they are overhand (And make a unique animation for it so it is more of a slight raise then lower) and poke only, no swing, there...
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Been playing around on my thrower again yesterday on EU 5.
I had a 1:1 kd ratio with throwing lances and some guy in the black samurai armour survived a close range hit in the chest. I have 10 PT.
When I swapped to my balanced heavy axes, I jumped to 2:1 or 3:1 kd ratio and finished all but 1 map in the top 3 (even topped it once).
The axes are a lot easier to aim and lead. The only trouble I had was hitting archers 20m away. If he was aware he could wait until I had thrown and then sidestep. No way I could hit him. Happened on several occasions.
If they weren't looking however and I hit them, it was usually a 1 hit kill.
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Why nerf them? They are not the major problem with throwing. They are extremely inaccurate
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Why nerf them? They are not the major problem with throwing. They are extremely inaccurate
Agreed. Its just uniformed whine. One of my alts is a thrower. I own throwing lances, but I never use them. There are just so many better choices in throwing than throwing lances in my opinion. I'm getting to the point with my character that I can 1 shot people with jarrids. Why pick a stack of 2 throwing lances when you can use another 1 hit wonder that is more accurate and has a bigger stack? No point whatsoever.
The problem with throwing isn't the high-tier stuff... its the easily accessible and accurate low-tier items.
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Agreed. Its just uniformed whine. One of my alts is a thrower. I own throwing lances, but I never use them. There are just so many better choices in throwing than throwing lances in my opinion. I'm getting to the point with my character that I can 1 shot people with jarrids. Why pick a stack of 2 throwing lances when you can use another 1 hit wonder that is more accurate and has a bigger stack? No point whatsoever.
The problem with throwing isn't the high-tier stuff... its the easily accessible and accurate low-tier items.
Exactly! :)
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I had a round last night with 4 stacks of lances all breaking at the same time. That's a 4x 500+ repairbill.
Ouch.
Heavy axes are 250 something gold. I've had only a few occasions with someone surviving more than 2 hits.
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keep em.
lower the amount one can carry maybe.
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keep em.
lower the amount one can carry maybe.
Well you can carry 8 at most and then you don't have any melee weapon
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Except for fact that 8 lances = 8 kills, also you have weapon - lance can be used VERY effectively in melee. As it has sideswings, overhead and stab + incredible speed.
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Except for fact that 8 lances = 8 kills, also you have weapon - lance can be used VERY effectively in melee. As it has sideswings, overhead and stab + incredible speed.
Remember that lances getting caught in shields or siege equipment (towers/ladder and the like) get lost and that most of the time you're throwing your lances in the direction of the enemy. That means that your missed lances end up somewhere behind enemy lines.
Also, if you happen to miss someone charging you a few times, you're forced to melee mode and I've never been able to get of 7 throws at one person before he gets to me. In melee mode, the sideswings deal 16 blunt damage. So unless you have huge PS, you're going to bounce off armour a lot. Even if you get through the armour, the hits hardly deal damage. The thrust attack is a different story, that's quite powerful. I find the 1h axes much more usefull in melee mode though.
In short, I've never made 8 kills with 8 throwing lances.
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I'm a dedicated str thrower right now, and I don't even use the things, though I bought them to try out. Bottom line is, they are balanced by extreme cost, horrible (I mean really horrible) accuracy, and ammo.
Often, you don't even hit something right in front of you.
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All throwing weapons
Except daggers, darts, knives, shurikens
should have a -1 to their ammo.
just my opinion, -1 at the LEAST
to counter the fact that there are SOOO many throwers now.
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remove throwing lances +1
as for inaccurate i watched throwy hit people with a throwing lance at range, only throwing one n hitting each time
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remove throwing lances +1
as for inaccurate i watched throwy hit people with a throwing lance at range, only throwing one n hitting each time
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(http://"http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2159")
If you took a scientific approach to this, and had somone stand 25 yards away (assuming all players are about 5 feet tall as a unit of measurement) and threw 12 lances at them... respawn and repeat, then reported the results, I'm sure you would find maybe 1 out of 12 would hit at that range.
At closer range (say 5 yards) maybe about 3 out of 12 would hit the target if they were standing still.... and not using a shield.
They really aren't as strong as you guys are painting them out to be. Carry a cheapo shield and do some footwork and you can get into melee range against a lance thrower. I do it to native all the time with my main (two handed polearm wielder) and he's one of the best throwers on the NA servers.
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But they kill horsies in one hit. That is IDIOTIC if we consider broken game balance...
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In soviet russia everywhere horsies kill you in one hit too. Fair is fair.
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Well you can carry 8 at most and then you don't have any melee weapon
Wrong in order to get to use the throw lance you end up having enough strength to pick up any weapon off the field let alone recover any other throw lances or throwing weapons. Basicly a throw lancers can always have a weapon and pretty much can always be 1 shotter. I say the weapon itself yes should be removed both on the fact that, what culture threw a large heavy lance at someone (Flavor), the fact that it is way too OP for a ranged weapon, and finally why the hell is it basicly me throwing the Double sided lance? The double sided lance is the only lance that holds no penalty with shield and thus seemingly giving it the feel that it was made to be balanced and versatile, yet since it is a lance it should be too long to actually be hurled effectively.
On the note of it not being able to be hurled effectively is say instead of slowing down throw speed and the like for debuffing throwers in general i say add a whiffing factor at about 100-160 and under don't know how many meters/feet that is IRL, but I doubt someone at about the range of a poleaxe or flamberge could effectivly launch someone into you with enough force to truly harm you. All on the fact that it is going off your force at throw and not of the add force of its weight and gravity. Or with the fact that throwing spears are too long to truly leave the hand correctly at this distance and the axe and daggers wont have the rotation do land with blade out.(Ask for ninja star...ninja please.)
I wrote an essay with bad grammar, DERP!
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keep em.
lower the amount one can carry maybe.
So, one lance?
Does anyone check the stats and use the weapons that they want to nerf before adding suggestions?
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I say the weapon itself yes should be removed both on the fact that, what culture threw a large heavy lance at someone (Flavor), the fact that it is way too OP for a ranged weapon, and finally why the hell is it basicly me throwing the Double sided lance?
There were many. Landsknechte, Stratiots, Irish all used to throw spears that were longer than the thrower. Stradiot throwing spears may have actually been twosided.
It also makes some sense a throwing weapon does more damage than a melee weapon. They were designed to bend and stick (causing more wounds as well as inferfering with movement) while melee weapons were designed for easy recovery.
What makes absolutely no sense is the amount of stuff one can carry. Where do those 8 2m spears or 16 axes come from? If anything he'd carry 2 lances or 5 small javelins at best.
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Just remove them. Throwmy old friends don't have the right to complain anyway.
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But they kill horsies in one hit. That is IDIOTIC if we consider broken game balance...
What is idiotic is that Cavalry players get 1 hit KILLS every other swing of their weapon. You are complaining because your inventory is now short one item, because THAT's what a horse is, an inventory item.
But you are right, 1 hit KILLS don't belong in game, so please nerf the cavalry speed bonus as the OP definitely does not approve of them.
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Most people posting don't seem to have actually USED throwing lances :/ Sometimes I'll have a streak of good luck where my lances actaully hit things. Other times...I'll spend the entire round chasing after my misses.
The complainers seem to be basing their nerf requests on the fact they've only noticed throwing lances when they die to them, they don't notice the previous 8 times the thrower missed.
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I'm a dedicated str thrower right now, and I don't even use the things, though I bought them to try out. Bottom line is, they are balanced by extreme cost, horrible (I mean really horrible) accuracy, and ammo.
Often, you don't even hit something right in front of you.
I played STR thrower once after patch. I ended up with vast superior kill count over death. Usually having 10+ kills in a round and 3- deaths. Lances and axes are insanely powerful. Jarids and the like are good but the others are epic weapons. Btw I made money with x2 in medium armor with lances. Alot of money, so don't go whining about lance cost as it is too cheap I think. Taking out a horse in one hit is also not really a realistic idea.. Then again, we're talking about throwing lances....
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Btw I made money with x1 in medium armor with lances. Alot of money
Unless you only used 1 or 2 stacks of lances, you are mistaken, the luckiest guy alive, or are a liar.
With 1x, you can use around 25k in equipment without losing money in the long run(the long run being constant x1). The math does not lie. With higher multipliers, the amount of equipment you can maintain increases linearly with your multiplier. So at 2x, you can maintain 50k, 3x - 75k, 4x - 100k, 5x - 125k. (These are approximate numbers off the top of my head. The exact #'s can be found if you look around the forums.)
Since 2 stacks of lances + "medium" armor are more than 25k alone, over the long run, anyone using that setup will lose money if they only have 1x the entire time. Of course, no one ever has 1x forever, or they'd probably quit playing crpg out of frustration. Even having an average of 2x DOUBLES the amount of equipment you can maintain. So if you're going to talk about something being OP because it's affordable, at least do so using VALID arguments that don't defy the universal laws of mathematics.
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Unless you only used 1 or 2 stacks of lances, you are mistaken, the luckiest guy alive, or are a liar.
With 1x, you can use around 25k in equipment without losing money in the long run(the long run being constant x1). The math does not lie. With higher multipliers, the amount of equipment you can maintain increases linearly with your multiplier. So at 2x, you can maintain 50k, 3x - 75k, 4x - 100k, 5x - 125k. (These are approximate numbers off the top of my head. The exact #'s can be found if you look around the forums.)
Since 2 stacks of lances + "medium" armor are more than 25k alone, over the long run, anyone using that setup will lose money if they only have 1x the entire time. Of course, no one ever has 1x forever, or they'd probably quit playing crpg out of frustration. Even having an average of 2x DOUBLES the amount of equipment you can maintain. So if you're going to talk about something being OP because it's affordable, at least do so using VALID arguments that don't defy the universal laws of mathematics.
Haha. Funny you care so much about the framework of a game. I used 2 stacks of lances yes, but you do not understand that medium armor is the biggest equipment class I believe.. therefor leaving many items to mention. Do not insinuate that I am a liar - I was making a point. People like You need to grow up. Throwing lances are not just OP., but also inexpensive for the one-shot of horses (usually) and players alike. I think the real problem of cRPG throwing infestation is Heavy throwing axes, or the entire axe family. I could one-shot horses and pretty much all players except tin cans with heavy axes by level 20 something.. That would be 3 stacks of axes and a shield which is 12 axes. 12 Instant kills if you aim right. Think of that, that's a sizable portion of a low pop. server like Fallen at times. If one person has that sort of killing power then what would four people like that be like? Eight? Twelve? You see my point of course. Sub classes will disappear and throwing will take over cRPG if we let it. Looks like it has a good start on us.. Do not think I wanted this, as I will never go back to throwing. I'm most likely going archer next retirement to try and help revive archery as a somewhat playable class.
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I dont think that throwing lances are a problem. Sure, they can onehit, but they have BIG downsides.
The fact that I nearly never get killed by throwing lances shows me, that they do not occur often(because players dont want as of the downsides) or they are easily avoided(shield and low accuracy)
I think Crushtrough combined with knockdown is much more OP.
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Haha. Funny you care so much about the framework of a game. I used 2 stacks of lances yes, but you do not understand that medium armor is the biggest equipment class I believe.. therefor leaving many items to mention. Do not insinuate that I am a liar - I was making a point. People like You need to grow up. Throwing lances are not just OP., but also inexpensive for the one-shot of horses (usually) and players alike. I think the real problem of cRPG throwing infestation is Heavy throwing axes, or the entire axe family. I could one-shot horses and pretty much all players except tin cans with heavy axes by level 20 something.. That would be 3 stacks of axes and a shield which is 12 axes. 12 Instant kills if you aim right. Think of that, that's a sizable portion of a low pop. server like Fallen at times. If one person has that sort of killing power then what would four people like that be like? Eight? Twelve? You see my point of course. Sub classes will disappear and throwing will take over cRPG if we let it. Looks like it has a good start on us.. Do not think I wanted this, as I will never go back to throwing. I'm most likely going archer next retirement to try and help revive archery as a somewhat playable class.
:rolleyes:
I love how Heroin writes a well thought-out post and you tell him to grow up along with some fallacies and the lovely slipperly slope argument.
Here's some balance for you
If you carry 2 stacks of throwing lances like you say you did, that leaves you with less than 5,000 gold for all forms of armor, a shield, or a side weapon. This means the best armor you can wear at x1 and either gain or remain neutral on money is a mail shirt.... but you would have NOTHING else.
this means you have 4 lances to work with. You better hope you can 1-shot someone with one, because on a good day, I'm happy if I hit with 1 out of 4 lances... and god help you if they have a shield.
So say you kill your opponent. Congrats. You are all out of ammo, have no melee weapon, no way of blocking and have crappy armor. In otherwords, you are about as useful as a peasant at that point.
Also, on my dedicated thrower, I laugh at the notion of 1 shotting everyone but tin-cans with axes at level 20. My thrower is level 24 I believe. All but 2 skill points have been either converted into strength or put into power throw. It usually takes me 2 axes to kill someone in medium armor if they are close and running towards me.
Sub-classes will not disappear, and throwing is not nearly as overpowered as you say it is. The only problem with throwing is that it is too accessible for hybrids.
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i dont think throwing lances should be removed, but i think the time it takes to throw one (from pressing lmb to you release it) should be increased.
You shouldnt be able to spam throwing that fast and still be accurate and throw it with that amount of force
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remove throwing lances +1
as for inaccurate i watched throwy hit people with a throwing lance at range, only throwing one n hitting each time
I knew I'd manage to get into this thread after that round. That was the best luck I'd ever had on that character. Made me feel like Zeus by the end of that map.
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i dont think throwing lances should be removed, but i think the time it takes to throw one (from pressing lmb to you release it) should be increased.
You shouldnt be able to spam throwing that fast and still be accurate and throw it with that amount of force
Don't know if you've noticed, but the throwing lances are allready incredibly slow to draw.
So slow, archers can fire a lot faster than I can throw another lance.
As long as it's still pretty special to see a thrower at the topscore list with a very good kd ratio I'd say it's fine as it is. Throwing has it's upsides and downsides and the only thing that can potentially make throwing OP is the ability to use a shield with throwing weapons without some sort of penalty.
Throwers without a shield are in no way more powerfull than a guy with 15 strength, 24 agility and a greatsword/large weapon dealing loads of damage.
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As long as it's still pretty special to see a thrower at the topscore list with a very good kd ratio I'd say it's fine as it is.
This. I regularly play with around four guys who use throwing lances, and I've seen one of them top the scoreboard...maybe once? They're definitely not overpowered, given how easy they are to sidestep. Leave well-enough alone.
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Don't know if you've noticed, but the throwing lances are allready incredibly slow to draw.
So slow, archers can fire a lot faster than I can throw another lance.
i know, but i still think lances should be slower.
i'd say an arcehr with a mid tier bow should be able to shoot 2 arrows everytime a thrower throws 1 lance - and thats for dedicated archer+thrower, throwing as sidearm should be slower
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i know, but i still think lances should be slower.
i'd say an arcehr with a mid tier bow should be able to shoot 2 arrows everytime a thrower throws 1 lance - and thats for dedicated archer+thrower, throwing as sidearm should be slower
Actually throwing should be faster then archery.
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Actually throwing should be faster then archery.
depends on what you throw; ofc you should be able to throw daggers fast as hell, but you cant throw a big ass lance both that accurate, that fast, and with taht amount of force
edit: i also think archery should be a little slower
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I still say the solution to all this throwing is instead of nerfing damage, add the whiffing factor,the whiff factor starts at double the weapon's length or the weapon's plus half the length of character's arm. This would solve the thing most people bitch about and that is dying to that point blank shot that throwers do, and allow throwers to keep their damage when using the weapon the way it should be and that is at range...Also it adds a bit of realism for the fact.
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I still say the solution to all this throwing is instead of nerfing damage, add the whiffing factor,the whiff factor starts at double the weapon's length or the weapon's plus half the length of character's arm. This would solve the thing most people bitch about and that is dying to that point blank shot that throwers do, and allow throwers to keep their damage when using the weapon the way it should be and that is at range...Also it adds a bit of realism for the fact.
Up to a certain point yes. For the lances which are pretty long it's correct, but with a throwing axe, you could technically just smack it right into someone's face if he's close enough. It's so short it doesn't really whiff and you don't even have to throw it.
Best solution for most people (and there are only very few who do) is to keep zigzagging until you're close and do a sideswing WHILE ZIGZAGGING. Most people keep dodging until they get to about 2m and run the last part in a straigth line. That's when I hit them in the chest, most of the time killing them.
If they don't die, I die. Usually due to me missing (huzzah for throwing randomness), my throwing weapon passing through them as if they didn't even exist or they just had too much armour/hp.
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Up to a certain point yes. For the lances which are pretty long it's correct, but with a throwing axe, you could technically just smack it right into someone's face if he's close enough. It's so short it doesn't really whiff and you don't even have to throw it.
Best solution for most people (and there are only very few who do) is to keep zigzagging until you're close and do a sideswing WHILE ZIGZAGGING. Most people keep dodging until they get to about 2m and run the last part in a straigth line. That's when I hit them in the chest, most of the time killing them.
If they don't die, I die. Usually due to me missing (huzzah for throwing randomness), my throwing weapon passing through them as if they didn't even exist or they just had too much armour/hp.
Point blank for the axe yes i agree maybe but also in my thoughts the axe would end up hitting the wrong rotation and simply bonk you with the handle, then again the game is on the premise that everyone is trained in the use of each weapon, so therefore i would say for all the javelin type weapons add a whiff factor of that distance and for the axe i'd say for double it's weapon length for the whiff cause that pretty much is your melee range and should have switched to melee weapon long before that.
Atleast we agree on something. Plus, 2-4m is the effective range of a throwing axe, so now i have no idea how to be fair to the javs and give axes a nerf. The only time i have a prob with throwing axes is when their are multiple throwers aiming at me.
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real thrower use 3x loomed jarids
half the cost, 10x jarids with 44 pierce(2x stack) if you make calc is much more dmg than 4x throwing lances
anyway every throwing are very inaccurate, so the skill of the thrower stay to kill multiple approching opponents while they are pretty near. i often kill ppl who are almost swinging theyr weapon on my body . any other kill after 20 feet are pretty much random, or dictated by how many throwing you wanna waste for kill a man. thats why jarids are better.
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Do not insinuate that I am a liar - I was making a point.
Making a point using logical and statistical fallacies that you KNOW to be fallacies, is what, exactly?
Let me rephrase:
Making a point using logical and statistical lies, that you KNOW to be lies, is what, exactly? Lying? And lying makes someone a what, then?
To ensure that I don't get fingered for "insinuating" anything, let me be perfectly clear. If you state a "fact" that is knowingly incorrect or inaccurate in an attempt to support your argument(which must not be strong, or you'd use TRUTH to support it), then yes, I am calling you out as being a liar. No insinuation, no dancing around the issue, no gilding the lily. Stop lying if you don't like the sound of the word.
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real thrower use 3x loomed jarids
half the cost, 10x jarids with 44 pierce(2x stack) if you make calc is much more dmg than 4x throwing lances
^ This.
Throwing lances are more of a style/novelty weapon then something truly effective. Jarids will oneshot mostly everyone with a high pt and you get twice the ammo. When I used to use throwing lances I chose my targets very carefully, no point in killing a peasant with it in a highish pop server. With jarids I could spam them indiscriminately, you're a much more effective killing machine.
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throwing weapons like lance aren't OP they do too much damage but are too inaccurate. needs to be rebalanced ala my old suggestion so that they are more accurate, but do less damage and pherhaps slower animation.
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throwing weapons like lance aren't OP they do too much damage but are too inaccurate. needs to be rebalanced ala my old suggestion so that they are more accurate, but do less damage and pherhaps slower animation.
So you get a slower, slightly less accurate, less damaging kind of throwing weapon compared to the jarid. Which also happens to have only half the ammo.
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I use the throwing lance and while it is a great feeling to hit someone and one shot them the accuracy is not good at all. You need a lot of game skill to use them well, and if you do miss for the most part you will be killed by whoever is comming at you. Honestly the best thing about them is slowing down calvery cause calvery is what really sucks!!! I say keep them as is, the requirements keep you from being able to do other things and the low accuracy prevents them from being one hit wonders.
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Remove Throwing Lances???
Have you played as thrower dude???
1 thing why they aren't op..... Prince and accuracy and amount of them in 1 bag...
you have no chance to use them all the time without loosing money(with x5.... even x7)
and even they are op( don't think so) every class of weapon have an op
Jarids are more dangerous because you have 2 times more of them and they are more accurate(with powerthrow 9 or 8 you can kill most of players in one hit in chest)
Yes and i have thrower character named EpicTroll.
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It's BS to say they're a no skill weapon. I've fought on a lot of maps with Zanthos while he used them to pick off horses. He uses javalins for far away horses and lances for closer/heavy ones. Often he misses or gets overwhelmed when I'm not there to give him a clear area to fire from. They're certainly a weapon with a significant handicap. To say it's no skill is like saying a 2h takes no skill because you'll hit if you swing at enemy who aren't defending themselves within your range. But people say that unlike 2h "lances can't be blocked," even though a weak shield can block a throwing lance. Alternatively, dodging the lances rather than soaking them also often does the trick.
I understand the desire to nerf lances but one doesn't need to make them into a boogyman to do it.
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So I made a thrower char, currently sitting at 24 str 3 agi. Tried throwing lances and yes, I can honestly say, they are stupid. Whoever is saying their drawback is terrible accuracy is either lying or bad. There is no problem whatsoever with 8 PT and 80ish wpf to hit anyone close range (that is NOT melee range). Obviously, you wont be sniping people far away from you, but with throwing lances you dont have to. With my 8 PT, everytime I hit someone he died in one shot. I am a terrible thrower, my leading target with throwing weapons is bad beyond bad and whenever I use something else than lances I'm happy for 1 K/D ratio. With lances, I have no problem to go 2+.
Not to mention they are quite potent melee weapons as well, so you can always keep one of them if you run out and just poke people, taking on the support role.
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You can always poke people, but it doesn't have much reach. Its a decent melee weapon, but throwing axes are clearly superior in most cases for melee. Throwing lances are really designed to be an anti-cavalry weapon, and I think they currently fullfill that role well. They are by no means my main choice for a utility weapon.
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LOL. this whole thread is BS , with my 11 pt thrower , there has been situations where people dont get 1 hitted by my lance . (remove the thread) :mrgreen:
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You can always poke people, but it doesn't have much reach. Its a decent melee weapon, but throwing axes are clearly superior in most cases for melee. Throwing lances are really designed to be an anti-cavalry weapon, and I think they currently fullfill that role well. They are by no means my main choice for a utility weapon.
+1
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Wow I can't believe this exists.
Yes Throwing Lances are retarded, but are they game breaking super awesome missiles of doom? No, not at all. How many times do you see a thrower top of your team? Maybe 1% of the time (I do it sometimes with mine, but that's more because I use war darts and a bar mace). How many times do you see pure strength builds like wallace, linden, or goretooth on the top of the team? The 95% of the time...then you get some shielders or archers the other 4%.
The lances need to stay in game just so people like the OP and Linden can rage at how broken a weapon that can one hit kill them is.
For those who claim it to be super accurate...try playing a thrower. I have 140 wpf, and 10PT...so my thrower is dedicated to it, and the reticule at point blank range can barely cover a horse. So quit your whining, suck it up and buy two crappy shields to soak up the two lances they are carrying, and go murder them.
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If you have to rely on your reticule you're just a bad player, on my thrower the reticule is fuckhuge and I can still consistently hit people, as long as my throwing lance doesn't go like a 90 degree angle from where I'm aiming (never happens).
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If you have to rely on your reticule you're just a bad player, on my thrower the reticule is fuckhuge and I can still consistently hit people, as long as my throwing lance doesn't go like a 90 degree angle from where I'm aiming (never happens).
...you don't quite seem to understand how the reticule works.
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...you don't quite seem to understand how the reticule works.
Mostly because I don't care, I still hit my targets accurately.
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Mostly because I don't care, I still hit my targets accurately.
maybe you should learn a bit mroe about the game befor posting here :rolleyes:
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maybe you should learn a bit mroe about the game befor posting here :rolleyes:
exactly.
Unlike games like Counterstrike, the reticule greatly affects the dynamics and physics of your throw or shot.
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exactly.
Unlike games like Counterstrike, the reticule greatly affects the dynamics and physics of your throw or shot.
I'm sorry but I think this post deserves it:
LOL
Edit: Actually, no, I'm not sorry.
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maybe you should learn a bit mroe about the game befor posting here :rolleyes:
And maybe you should learn to play the game if you absolutely need a good reticule to hit anything, considering I can accurately hit people with a fuckhuge reticule.
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I'm sorry but I think this post deserves it:
LOL
Edit: Actually, no, I'm not sorry.
and we have a second idiot who doesn't understand how the reticule works come out of the wood-works.
@Patricia. One time I got a royal flush in poker, ergo its common and happens all the time. You should all play video poker in vegas.
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Nerf royal flush plz
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and we have a second idiot who doesn't understand how the reticule works come out of the wood-works.
You might wanna look up the words you used in your post before actually posting them. Do you think your lance is gonna fly faster when your reticule is tighter? Because that's what dynamics is about. Or do you think your lance is gonna turn into jelly when your reticule is wider? Then indeed the physics of the lance would depend on the reticule.
As far as I know though, non of those applies. So your post makes no sense. Also, reticule itself does not affect a single thing. It only shows all the math the game did behind the scenes. You can take the reticule away and experienced/good throwers will have no problem playing their class. That obviously cannot be said about you.
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I had pt 8 and couldnt 1Hit evrybody, what are you talking about? Its just a fun weapon and lousy in melee. No one would try to play seriously with throwing lances its too frustraiting. Lances are good for horseslaying nothing more.
Lances need more precision but less units. Who can handle 8 lances on his back XD
Btw the colours of lances should be variable ;D
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and we have a second idiot who doesn't understand how the reticule works come out of the wood-works.
@Patricia. One time I got a royal flush in poker, ergo its common and happens all the time. You should all play video poker in vegas.
An average game of poker is nowhere near as swift as the TINY AMOUNT OF TIME between attempts at throwing lances in crpg.
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Change the name to pilum, buff damage slightly and make it one projectile per stack.
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Change the name to pilum, buff damage slightly and make it one projectile per stack.
I simply cannot tell if this is a troll post or seriousface post.
I think we should port the AWP from CS to the game but only give 1 bullet per stack, also make it usable with a shield so it's on par with the throwing lances.
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All weapons should be allowed at full power...nerfing is BS. Once all weapons are available at full potential, then everything will balance itself out. Then people may need to learn some real skills and know why their weapons IRL would be good or not historically. ie. Turkish Archery (http://www.turkisharchery.info/?p=overview) was the best in history along with the Japanese and English. However, recently Crossbows have better accuracy, which is crazy. In fact, I would love to see auto couching for as long as you hold down like in original M&B. Realism is why people tend to play this game, otherwise they would be playing WOW.
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Game balance is more important to me then realism. I want realism but not to the point of making this a simulator.
First and foremost, I play this game to have fun.
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You might wanna look up the words you used in your post before actually posting them. Do you think your lance is gonna fly faster when your reticule is tighter? Because that's what dynamics is about. Or do you think your lance is gonna turn into jelly when your reticule is wider? Then indeed the physics of the lance would depend on the reticule.
As far as I know though, non of those applies. So your post makes no sense. Also, reticule itself does not affect a single thing. It only shows all the math the game did behind the scenes. You can take the reticule away and experienced/good throwers will have no problem playing their class. That obviously cannot be said about you.
You know, before I just thought you were an idiot -- now you just confirmed it.
2. Characterized by continuous change, activity, or progress: a dynamic market.
The reticule shows the path of the projectile, not the speed. Can you guesstimate how its going to be thrown if you are moving or standing still? Sure. Are you more likely to hit by using that tool. Absolutely.
@Patricia, the argument wasn't about the time for each hand, but the probability. The time of poker is nonsequitor. Natural Royal Flush=Very rare (about 4/2.6million), but high pay out. Throwing lances work similarly. Unless conditions are ideal, the trajectory is the most random, and the overall chances of hitting with your weapon are the lowest out of all the ranged weapons in the game. When I say the large reticule balances the lance, its not because like in counterstrike, if you have a very wide or nonexistent cross-hair it becomes more challenging to aim, but because the reticule is a 100% accurate depiction of the chance of the trajectory. The idea behind the balance of the throwing lance is that it has a mathematically low chance of a high reward... much like a royal flush.
lastly, I had to comment on this bit
Nerf royal flush plz
:lol: I would give you +1, but the awesome bar seems to be on the fritz
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But unlike a 4/2.6 million chance like the royal flush I can consistently hit people wih my throwing lances (out of 8 lances I can easily get 7 to hit) so it's not really a good comparison.
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I'd like to see a video of you getting 7 to hit. The numbers of rounds I've seen someone do that, or have done it myself, are few and far between. I don't believe there is currently a way to track shot accuracy, but if there were, it would point towards my argument
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You know, before I just thought you were an idiot -- now you just confirmed it.
The reticule shows the path of the projectile, not the speed. Can you guesstimate how its going to be thrown if you are moving or standing still? Sure. Are you more likely to hit by using that tool. Absolutely.
Yes, that was my mistake, I took it as a term from physics. Still I would like to know how the lance changes its physics depending on reticule.
Also, as I stated, I made a thrower, and lances are EASY to hit with with 8 PT. I can imagine it gets only better with 10 and more. The reticule is small enough to hit people reliably on close to melee range, which is all you need. You're saying stuff like "throwing has the worst accuracy of all ranged" well, that's obvious, they're close range weapons. You don't really need pinpoint accuracy with your bow/xbow to shoot someone 5m away from you. For the range throwing weapons are effective at, they have very good accuracy. Even high tier throwing weapons. If you can't see that, than there is no reason to argue with you.
PS: Arguing about accuracy mainly because you seem to be strongly obsessed with the reticule.
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I see how you can have the terms mistaken.
Anyway, this argument is getting unnecessarily heated and I contributed to that in more than a small part. For that, I apologize.
Here is why I say the accuracy is very important: it significantly reduces the effective range as you have stated. However, a more accurate weapon like a bow still have a very strong advantage over an inaccurate weapon like the throwing lance at close range. Here is why:
While the bow is slower, normally less damaging and less hybrid friendly, a good bowman can consistently get a headshot at close range if the opponent does not have a shield. The bow's accuracy and projectile speed are what keeps the damage low.
Throwers who use throwing lances do not have this luxury. While you may occasionally get a headshot, even a skilled player cannot consistently score a headshot on an aware opponent for a number of reasons.
- The accuracy of the throwing lance does not allow it. Random chance takes precedent over a well placed reticule.
- Throwing lances have one of the slowest projectile speeds in the game. In the event that your lance is guided towards the intended area, the opponent can easily sidestep the projectile.
While you can hit an opponent within 5m, this leaves the thrower significantly more exposed than other ranged classes. A fast melee character can quickly approach the thrower and force them into melee combat. All other ranged classes have the luxury of being a safe distance away from the main battle.
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I can see how my first post was calling for response it got. Let's calm the waters a bit then.
Archers aim for head in close range because it's their only way to kill someone in one shot. And if the target actually has decent helmet, not even headshot is gonna kill him. That's however not the case with lances, as they will kill in one shot wherever they hit. There is no reason to go for a headshot with them.
Also, its always much harder to close the gap to thrower than to archer, simply because of the rate of fire, even with lances. Archer might be shooting you from more afar, but with the current speed of arrows and RoF of bow, it's no problem to get close to them without being hit once. Also, the fact that archer can't hold his shot for long plays in the cards of the guy trying to get close to him. And even if he actually hits you, you won't die most of the times.
While lance thrower have in best scenario 8 chances to hit you, and he needs to do so only once. Then he can just pick up the lances he missed and move on.
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Well, this is another preconception a lot of people have that isn't quite true.
We don't see a lot of archers go strength build, but a PD archer is quite powerful and can 1 shot an opponent... even with the current nerf.
A strength based archer with 8 PD, a longbow, and bodkin arrows can in fact 1 hit an opponent. Here is the math
(Bow damage + Arrow Damage) * (Power Draw Bonus) * ( Weapon prof damage bonus) * ( Speed Bonus) = Raw damage output
(((30+7) * (1 + 0.96) * (1 + ((150 / 200) * .015)) * (1 + 0.10)) + (24 - 14)) = 90.669435
Using the example we placed in the other thread of an opponent decently armored in Heraldic Mail with surcoat (chest armor 40) we get our final damage calculated as such
maximum remaining damage = potential damage - 0.5 * armor value * soak factor (formula courtesy of Urist)
Cutting Damage carries a soak factor of 0.8, unless this has been changed by the development team for c-rpg.
91-.05*40*.8=75
Given most characters have less than 70 life, this shot would be fatal.
The rate of fire is significantly slower, but the potential range and projectile speed is much greater. The only reason we don't see this more is because people just haven't figured it out yet.
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I figured that out, to be fair, but the reason msot people do not do this is because your RoF combined with long distance shooting and the 130 wpf you are forced with due to the 10PD means you will not be OSing as often as you think. Then you have all those pesky people dodging snail rounds at range.
Coming from a guy who just retired from a 10PD build, the longbow is crap. Get a warbow, though you will still OS many lower armored people and of course any horseman crazy enough to be running towards you.
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Fair point: did not include the PD penalty.
I imagine if you heirloom it, the chances of oneshotting will be right up there with the throwing lances though. Arrows get +4 at MW
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Well, this is another preconception a lot of people have that isn't quite true.
We don't see a lot of archers go strength build, but a PD archer is quite powerful and can 1 shot an opponent... even with the current nerf.
A strength based archer with 8 PD, a longbow, and bodkin arrows can in fact 1 hit an opponent. Here is the math
(Bow damage + Arrow Damage) * (Power Draw Bonus) * ( Weapon prof damage bonus) * ( Speed Bonus) = Raw damage output
(((30+7) * (1 + 0.96) * (1 + ((150 / 200) * .015)) * (1 + 0.10)) + (24 - 14)) = 90.669435
Using the example we placed in the other thread of an opponent decently armored in Heraldic Mail with surcoat (chest armor 40) we get our final damage calculated as such
maximum remaining damage = potential damage - 0.5 * armor value * soak factor (formula courtesy of Urist)
Cutting Damage carries a soak factor of 0.8, unless this has been changed by the development team for c-rpg.
91-.05*40*.8=75
Given most characters have less than 70 life, this shot would be fatal.
The rate of fire is significantly slower, but the potential range and projectile speed is much greater. The only reason we don't see this more is because people just haven't figured it out yet.
Let me preface my response by saying: I do not think throwing lances are OP. They are good, yes. But they should be. They are the highest tier, highest cost, lowest ammo throwing weapon. I think they are fine as is.
In response to your arguement that bows can one-shot, however, I have to disagree. I just retired a 10 pd archer with 134 wpf in bows, and I couldn't one-shot ANYONE except peasants with no armor. Even black lamellar vests took 2 shots, regardless of target's build, at point blank range with a non-heirloomed longbow/bodkins. I tested this extensively on the duel server with multiple willing people, using both high and low strength builds, at point blank range.
I tried this build because I came up with the same math that you did, thinking that a 10 pd archer would be able to one-shot a lot of people. However, it simply doesn't happen that way. For some reason, the damage calculation is WAY off. I was typically doing slightly more than half of my target's HP in damage.
Comparing the damage to that of a 6pd archer with high prof, the 6pd archer does almost the same damage as the 10pd build for some reason, and can usually kill the same person in 2 shots. So the extra damage from the 10pd build is actually wasted most of the time, since it ultimately works out to be 2 shots for either build, the difference being that the 6pd build has a much faster rate of fire, lower draw time, and higher accuracy.
The only advantage to the 10pd build, imo, is that the 10pd build will pretty much ALWAYS kill with a headshot, whereas the 6pd build may not if the target has high strength and 50+ head armor.
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One additional advantage is that it breaks shields too, very quickly. I have broken many a shield at a distance by slamming a half dozen or so arrows into it, making many shielders digruntled that a mere bowman broke it so fast with so few arrows.
And no, this is not counting those absurd huscarl shields, or the top two Board Shields (Though I have once managed to break the second-highest board shield from range witht he ehlp of another STR archer, that was hilarious).
Anywho, yes, for some odd reason it is difficult to one shot anyone higher then a ninja even with the PD10, and it is mainly only useful for blowing cavalry to pieces, going peasant hunting (I have better things to do with my time, say harass key players not score cheapo kills), or two shotting armored nuts that normally tak three arrows.
Sad but true, a round that takes 85% of the target health may as well only take 50% for an archer, as you need the second shot to kill him anyways, though one can argue that it is useful for softening up the target for friendly melee troops to kill. Though then again, if I see someone like Balbaroth or Singingintherain or goretooth wandering around, I would much rather kill them completely at range then wait for them to melee ANY friendly troop at "softened" state.
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You'll pretty much never get a headshot against a thrower in close range, especially if you're using the Longbow. You'll try but they'll get off their throws so fast that by the time you can fire your arrow, due to strafing, your reticule is larger than theirs. If you try to stand still, you're just a sitting duck. Because you can move and strafe while throwing and you absolutely must be standing still with a bow to have any chance of hitting your target, throwers have a huge advantage against archers in close range. I'd actually argue that higher PD builds have a much smaller chance of success than lower due to RoF. Trying to argue otherwise is rather pathetic and makes me think you're scrambling to find supporting arguments Seawied.
You'd have to be using a Strong Bow with 5 PD to be able to "safely" shoot any arrows in close range against a thrower.
I was also going to debunk your "Longbow One Shot" post, but someone else already did it. Though I would like to ask the questions due to your formula: Do bows even gain damage from your raw strength? Is it possible to have 150 WPF while having 10 PD?
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Let me preface my response by saying: I do not think throwing lances are OP. They are good, yes. But they should be. They are the highest tier, highest cost, lowest ammo throwing weapon. I think they are fine as is.
In response to your arguement that bows can one-shot, however, I have to disagree. I just retired a 10 pd archer with 134 wpf in bows, and I couldn't one-shot ANYONE except peasants with no armor. Even black lamellar vests took 2 shots, regardless of target's build, at point blank range with a non-heirloomed longbow/bodkins. I tested this extensively on the duel server with multiple people.
I tried this build because I came up with the same math that you did, thinking that a 10 pd archer would be able to one-shot a lot of people. However, it simply doesn't happen that way. For some reason, the damage calculation is WAY off. I was typically doing slightly more than half of my target's HP in damage.
Comparing the damage to that of a 6pd archer with high prof, the 6pd archer does almost the same damage as the 10pd build for some reason, and can usually kill the same person in 2 shots. So the extra damage from the 10pd build is actually wasted most of the time, since it ultimately works out to be 2 shots for either build, the difference being that the 6pd build has a much faster rate of fire, lower draw time, and higher accuracy.
The only advantage to the 10pd build, imo, is that the 10pd build will pretty much ALWAYS kill with a headshot, whereas the 6pd build may not if the target has high strength and 50+ head armor.
This is for a point-blank shot heroin. Damage drop for all range weapons is reduced over distance. This is especially true for throwing lances, which have a lower projectile speed. Projectile speed impacts overall damage.
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This is for a point-blank shot heroin. Damage drop for all range weapons is reduced over distance. This is especially true for throwing lances, which have a lower projectile speed. Projectile speed impacts overall damage.
All my testing was done at point blank range. Edited and bolded previous post to ensure no one missed it.
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Late and have been drinking. :lol:
But, that is the actual damage formula which goes into the game. Its hard coded too, so the c-rpg crew cannot change it. Armor has a random chance of effectiveness and can be anywhere from 50% effective to 100% effective. At 100% effectiveness (very rare!) with the numbers we are running, the damage output is 60... which means you need a minimum of 18 strength and 6 IF OR 19 strength and 5 IF if you want to survive. This is with the single most unlucky roll for the attacker.
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Pila were used to disable shields by making them too cumbersome to wield. They were not designed to kill people but to break phalanxes.
Throwing lances are stupid, they need considerable balancing or to be removed (or remade into the role of a Pilum using on-hit weight adding triggers at the cost of making them 30 damage and a bit more accurate. Seriously it would be cool to have something tactical like that rather than an "lol insta-kill no skill".)
It isn't that they are accurate but how inaccurate they are which makes them only usable in close to melee range. And oh yes do they one hit kill. Sure, there are times when people survive but that is generally rare or a high HP build being hit by a low PT thrower with no speed bonus.
I'm a thrower and with 10 PT I can one-shot Wallace and he is a super heavy tin can. I should not one-hit a guy with 70+ body armor and 10+ IronFlesh unless it is a headshot.
They don't currently serve any game use for balance or an interesting gimmick like "ohoho it adds tons of weight to a shield like a pilum so it makes it too heavy to use".
The usual arguments in favor of the throwing lance come along these few points so I'll just counter them now:
1. You only get 2 per stack. : You can pick them up. That is 2 dead things or destroyed shields. per stack. You can have 4 stacks.
2. They are really expensive. : Uh yeah, So is wearing plate. The top tier of everything is really expensive. Except you can onehit guys wearing plate which costs way more.
3. They have terrible accuracy : Not a reason to give them sympathy but rather a reason why they are so bad for the game. And due to it being an inaccurate just-be-close weapon that means it requires little skill to use effectively, and, more player skill produces no rewards.
Oh, how can I forget this too: They are a weapon that 1 hits enemies with little to no danger to himself. It is a high reward - no risk weapon. Every other weapon that can come even anywhere close to the one hit capabilities of a throwing lances are High risk to the user.
This this this this this.
Marathon, thank you for saving me from typing.
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update on the accusation that 50% speed bonus is not achievable. Played single player again. With 0 athletics, first strike on an opponent yielded a 45% bonus. Several fights later, my high speed bonus was 56%, the low was -92%, the median was 26%, and the mode was 26%
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update on the accusation that 50% speed bonus is not achievable. Played single player again. With 0 athletics, first strike on an opponent yielded a 45% bonus. Several fights later, my high speed bonus was 56%, the low was -92%, the median was 26%, and the mode was 26%
Wow. I must be doing something wrong. I have 4 athletics on my character and I really don't get more than a 20% speed bonus without doing things like jumping.
It's only on thrusts that I can consistently get above 20% speed bonus.
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The AI has a tendency to face-hug, which kills your speed bonus. Start your swing much earlier than you expect it to hit and just tip them with your weapon. Its easier to land a solid speed bonus on a human than it is the a.i.
I'll do a more complete chart some other time. Above 60% speed bonus doesn't seem possible with 0 athletics from my tests so far, but 50% is achievable on an ideal swing.
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The AI has a tendency to face-hug, which kills your speed bonus. Start your swing much earlier than you expect it to hit and just tip them with your weapon. Its easier to land a solid speed bonus on a human than it is the a.i.
Yeah I started noticing the face hugging. Also, with the AI set to poor they do a lot of back pedaling which screws with the speed bonus as well. I pretty much always swing early and hit them with the tip. When fighting the AI on the "good" difficulty, they seem to always try to get the first attack in. Their release timing is poor so if you tip them, they never block and you can just steam roll the entire arena without getting hit, which is what I have been doing. I manage to get 30-60% speed modifiers on thrusts but anything else, (especially overheads) net a much smaller bonus for me.
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Yeah I started noticing the face hugging. Also, with the AI set to poor they do a lot of back pedaling which screws with the speed bonus as well. I pretty much always swing early and hit them with the tip. When fighting the AI on the "good" difficulty, they seem to always try to get the first attack in. Their release timing is poor so if you tip them, they never block and you can just steam roll the entire arena without getting hit, which is what I have been doing. I manage to get 30-60% speed modifiers on thrusts but anything else, (especially overheads) net a much smaller bonus for me.
You need to understand how the physics work to get the higher speed modifier. On a thrust, yes, you simply charge towards someone. To get a speed bonus on an overhead, you'd most likely want to be falling from a jump. On a right-swing, you'd want to be strafing left as you make contact. Opposite for a left-swing. Charging straight ahead is not the appropriate behavior to get maximum speed bonuses on opponents, for anything other than a thrust.
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Is it possible to have 150 WPF while having 10 PD?
No, at level 30 you can achieve a little over 130-ish with 10PD due to the conversions. You might be able to squeeze a couple more points, but this is assuming 30 STR and 12 AGIL. At 30 STR and 9 Agil you will have exactly 130 wpf. Note, I am saying this from actually doing it, I assume the character creator/planner tool agrees with me.
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Regarding your damage formula, since some people may miss it in the other thread:
Your damage formular seems to be pretty wrong. Didn't even get to the armor part because the facepalm blinded me.
So unless the correct formula is released, there is no reason to try to o the math.