cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Karmazyn on February 25, 2011, 04:41:38 pm
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What reasons are given to let people play as 1h pure class?
What game play reasons can we add to the mod in order to encourage people to try out a 1h class without shield?
Thank you.
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A speed bonus, but that would make one handers really quick.
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You are more likely to do more damage with no shield, and you are able to block faster, and strike faster after a block. Also I think I notice slightly less time between strikes.
Compared with 2h and polearm, 1h+shield/noshield seems to suck. But then when we bring multiple opponents and missiles into play it becomes more viable.
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What game play reasons can we add to the mod in order to encourage people to try out a 1h class without shield?
The main advantage of a onehander is that you can use a shield. That's the only logically feasible advantage they can have. Well, ok, being cheaper maybe (which isn't true).
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1h without a shield is already very viable.
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Only thing needed to strengthen it is lowering the effects of weapon stun. That would probably be too much, though.
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1h with no shield is already lightning fast, you can pick up a sidesword and spam your way to heaven, the only downside is the smaller range, so I really don't think it needs more buffing.
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Average build for ninja is 12 str 27 agi, from what i heard, and they use 4 ps 9 athletics.
If you want to play 1h without shield, the only advantage i can think off is more agi. I already tested 2 ps 6 str 33 agi with Niuweidao, and it was ENOUGH to not bounce off at the time due to very high speed bonus. If you are going to heirloom Niuweidao, it is even more viable.
Now, why Niuweidao?
Answer is simply: only 6 str requirements.
Look at this builds:
Ninja (average) build:
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 12
Agility: 27
Hit points: 49
Converted: 8
Ironflesh: 1
Power Strike: 4
Shield: 0
Athletics: 9
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 9
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 181
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
1h ninja build:
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 6
Agility: 33
Hit points: 41
Converted: 8
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 2
Shield: 0
Athletics: 11
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 10
One Handed: 190
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
As you can see, it is much faster. MUCH faster. Why MUCH? Simply: average player has about 6 athletics, better in manual block players has often 7 athletics, and you have big advantage of 4(!) more athletics and 12(!) more agi.
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190 WPF in 1h is useless, take 150 and 135 on polearms or 2h
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I go the other way around, got 28 (or 29) str and 9 agi with a long espada eslanova, can one shot most people with a stab in the face, a bit slow but I dont care.
Personally I think the fact that 1 handers are faster allows you to pump more str and so you can be as fast as someone who got more agi but use a 2 hander while dealing almost the same amount of damage due to the high powerstrike.
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Uh, Dravic. With 2 powerstrike and 6 strength, I could just pretend RMB doesn't exist and spam until you die, ignoring all your attacks.
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Uh, Dravic. With 2 powerstrike and 6 strength, I could just pretend RMB doesn't exist and spam until you die, ignoring all your attacks.
I don't think spamming works against a full agi 1h build like that he should easily chamber and outspam you.
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I don't think spamming works against a full agi 1h build like that he should easily chamber and outspam you.
Won't really matter. With 2 ps, when I'm in my heavier armor, won't do squat damage to me. Just wait for an inevitable wiff and punish the hell out of them.
I've done some experiments with 6 strength builds. They don't work.
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I don't think spamming works against a full agi 1h build like that he should easily chamber and outspam you.
Err, that's the point, see. He can hit me as much as he likes, it won't matter at all because of his 2 PS.
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I go the other way around, got 28 (or 29) str and 9 agi with a long espada eslanova, can one shot most people with a stab in the face, a bit slow but I dont care.
Personally I think the fact that 1 handers are faster allows you to pump more str and so you can be as fast as someone who got more agi but use a 2 hander while dealing almost the same amount of damage due to the high powerstrike.
You're basically as fast as a 2h, dealing about the same damage but with less reach.
The only reason to play 1h/no shield is style. Other than that, you're better off with polearms/2h in every aspect.
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Oh yeah, reach, you got a point here, style is great, on the other the top 1 handers are cheaper if you dont buy a shield, allows you to get about 3k more to spend on armor.
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You're faster too. Plus different animations, people are much less likely to block attacks from 1h without shield than 2h, because they're more used to the 2h.
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Meh, I go 1hander no shield when I (rarely) play cRPG, and it's fine.
If you're doing this as a class though, you must know that you're choosing to play in a gimped way. Making it easier to play 1hand/no-shield would just be retarded.
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The only thing that really bothered me when trying out 1h without shield was the weapon stun. Just about every 2h/polearm will stun you when you block, which is kinda annoying when fighting 2+ people. Other than that, it was fine ^^
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The only thing that really bothered me when trying out 1h without shield was the weapon stun. Just about every 2h/polearm will stun you when you block, which is kinda annoying when fighting 2+ people. Other than that, it was fine ^^
Stun's a necessary game-mechanic which makes fights more interesting.
Equally, shields can be stunned anyway.
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Yeah, I never said it's a bad thing, just that it bothered me most ^^ I realize it's necessary for balance.
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I'm pure 1hand dueler atm. Not too bad and weighs well with other classes.
No complaints. :)
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I'd love to make a duelist build, unfortunately, there are many reasons why this is infeasible. I had been trying to 1hand duel with my crossbowman, but the amount of points xbow needs makes my 1hand score around 60, and with an italian sword it can take up to 5 or 6 hits to kill a mail user.
I'd suggest vastly increasing the speed of one handed weapons - however - also increase the speed penalty for wielding them with a shield to the point that a 1h and a huscarl shield is no faster than it is now. The justification of this is simple, it adds another possible class and subclass to the game - 1h proficiency without using a shield.
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Hmm... good idea, HOWEVER:
Do you know, how high would be speed of 1h without shield to be the same as it is now WITH shield? 1st, with shield penalty is decreasing weapon speed about 10 (maybe a bit less), so pure 1h with lets say 111 speed (Niuweidao after "buff") with build 9 str / 30 agi with 10 athletics, 10 WM and 3 PS would be lighting speed. So NO!
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I'd suggest vastly increasing the speed of one handed weapons
No, that'd make them overpowered like hell. They're already really, really fast. Making them even faster would make blocking them impossible even with the slightest of lag, or alternatively if you're not 100% focused. In other words, 90% of the playerbase would be unable to block them.
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I'd love to make a duelist build, unfortunately, there are many reasons why this is infeasible. I had been trying to 1hand duel with my crossbowman, but the amount of points xbow needs makes my 1hand score around 60, and with an italian sword it can take up to 5 or 6 hits to kill a mail user.
I'd suggest vastly increasing the speed of one handed weapons - however - also increase the speed penalty for wielding them with a shield to the point that a 1h and a huscarl shield is no faster than it is now. The justification of this is simple, it adds another possible class and subclass to the game - 1h proficiency without using a shield.
That's far too much / would be OP.
I have little problem dueling with a 1h sword when my shield gets broken (which it does, because I don't like the huscarl), provided I don't screw up with blocks. It's fast enough. Heirlooming and a str build help with the damage, too. The fast onehanders are already living hell to block.
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That's far too much / would be OP.
I have little problem dueling with a 1h sword when my shield gets broken (which it does, because I don't like the huscarl), provided I don't screw up with blocks. It's fast enough. Heirlooming and a str build help with the damage, too. The fast onehanders are already living hell to block.
Yep. One thing that need to be done is different draw time for different weapons/shields which will make big polearms and 2h weapons sucky choices for archers and xbows. Just this will make 1h more attractive.
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I'd love to make a duelist build, unfortunately, there are many reasons why this is infeasible. I had been trying to 1hand duel with my crossbowman, but the amount of points xbow needs makes my 1hand score around 60, and with an italian sword it can take up to 5 or 6 hits to kill a mail user.
I'd suggest vastly increasing the speed of one handed weapons - however - also increase the speed penalty for wielding them with a shield to the point that a 1h and a huscarl shield is no faster than it is now. The justification of this is simple, it adds another possible class and subclass to the game - 1h proficiency without using a shield.
Yes, there is really a problem with speed or damage of 1h in compare to 2h/polearms. Katana for example make more damage and is faster. Even with 8 ps a 1h can bounce from armor. Many reasons why nobody play pure 1h as class. To kill Fasader in his transitional armor you need up to 7-8 hits.
To the others, what are you worry about, do you know many people who do well with 1h pure? 2 points to damage and/or speed would not change the game balance, imho.
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Well, the thing is it's not so simple, like it's weak so after a buff it isn't OP.
What are you going to buff. Speed, they are fast enough (giving the sidesword or steel pick +5 speed might be broken), reach - no ghost reach, stun you could maybe change and damage. But it would be kind of silly to do more damage with 1h than with 2h.
Only thing that makes sense is make them a better (or at least equal) choice as sidearm. Make shields, bows, crossbows more expensive and 1h weapons cheaper. Start every char with 40 1h wpf (but make shield decrease 1h wpf, maybe that could be used to diversify shields too).
Urlukurs suggestion is nice too.
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Please don't make xbows any more expansive ^^ Like 900 gold is not enough for upkeep. Honestly though, it wouldn't help. Unless you make 1h super cheap, noone is gonna use 1h over cheaper polearm on his ranged character.
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I feel the balance between the melee weapons is fine tbh (item tweaks aside, like barmaces, shields, lhbs etc). 1H+shield for best protection, 2h for best all round weapons, polearms for best spamming or shieldbreaking. All 3 are viable, they just require different tactics. My kill/death ratios are the same for all 3, 4-5 to 1 on duel, 2-3 to 1 on battle/siege.
1h without shield is certainly unbalanced though, if you look at it as a seperate class. 1h without shield is fine in a duel, but in any kind of group situation you'll lack the range of a 2h/polearm and the protection of a shield. I quite like madjackmcmad's suggestion of buffing 1hs without shields, but like eponi pointed out, that would be very hard to balance correctly.
My suggestion would be a more advanced inventory system. Something that takes into account the size and/or weight of a weapon to determine what you can carry. Maybe a slots system, where you have, for instance, a back slot, 2 belt slots and a body slots and then let the item size/weight determine which slot it can occupy. It would have to be worked out more thoroughly though.