cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Realism Discussion => Topic started by: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 23, 2012, 01:30:44 am

Title: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 23, 2012, 01:30:44 am
God how many times has this thread been made? oh well.

So, Katana vs Long Sword. In reality the 2 pair up quite tightly, but the Katana does have more cutting and thrusting power. And that is against all targets including against plate, don't give me that crap about the Katana not being able to deal with metal armour. The Japanese invented tempered steal and used it for swords and armour
 also both swords have been tested against European plate and they both do about the same amount of damage (fuck all).

So, ... buff Katana thrus to 24 and buff long sword thrust to 25. Even though the Katana is a better thrusting weapon.

Also knock 1 point of speed of the katana. The sword itself isn't "fast" its the way its used and given that this engine doesn't in anyway use the Katana as it would/is used it should just have to play with the rest of the sodding swords. It doesn't have some kind of mircle speed because its 1000 times folded tempered steal...

ANYWAY, let us now rant incoherently at each for fun :D

Realism thread is my favorite!

Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Corwin on January 23, 2012, 02:21:07 am
Cool story bro.
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Bobthehero on January 23, 2012, 02:22:32 am
What a load of bull.
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Tears of Destiny on January 23, 2012, 02:23:21 am
At first I was irritated that this thread was posted again, but then I noticed this was the realism forum.

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I think katanas need a speed increase of like, 40 points and stuff, but cost six times as much cuz they are so hard to make. Also, they should all be MW because every true katana is made by a sword master.
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 23, 2012, 02:27:55 am
I dunno. I once hearedd taht a japanese or somthin swung a akatana so fast it broke the sound barrirer and blew up the village. so it

 pertty fast alright

Then again, in
 interest of game balance. Maybe a 7  -  9 more cut and 1 less pierce could do teh trick


    Chamber arrows too.

                                Good tred.
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 23, 2012, 06:52:21 am
Load of bull my foot, YOUR A LOAD OF BULL!
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on January 23, 2012, 07:39:59 am
Weeaboo.
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Zerran on January 23, 2012, 08:08:34 am
Longswords generally weighed more, so had more blunt force they could apply to plate. Additionally, they had a thicker, straighter blade which makes thrusting more potent. The katana had 2 advantages over the longsword: speed, and ability to deal actual cutting damage. Longsword was better for thrusting and dealing blunt force trauma. Generally European warriors wore more and heavier armor (such as chain and plate) because iron was much easier to aquire. Japanese smiths only had very small quantities of very impure ore to work with, so it was much more difficult to get useable metal, and so generally less armor was worn. It makes it very hard to compare the two, as they were designed under completely different circumstances.

Also, I assume you refer to the deadliest warrior style tv tests? I've seen those, and neither the leather they use nor the plate is even remotely accurate. Couch leather =/= boiled leather and aluminum foil =/= steel plate armor.

Not a perfect video, but a hell of a lot better than the crap on tv: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avnjDouvuRc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avnjDouvuRc) He's also got a video demonstrating chain and boiled leather somewhere, but too lazy to look it up right now.

also

Quote from: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 23, 2012, 06:52:21 am
Load of bull my foot, YOU'RE A LOAD OF BULL!

fixed that for you    :P

Quote from: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 23, 2012, 01:30:44 am
Realism thread is my favorite!

Completely agree! Realism section is great fun, especially when the newbies post something and actually think it will be taken seriously. :lol:
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Getheme on January 23, 2012, 11:37:59 am
Which longsword are you talking about? Early medieval type (wielded with 1 hand, while katana uses 2), or the kind that's in the c-rpg, from several centuries later? :)

The katana (~ 1200-1940) may compare well to a viking era sword (~ 600-1000), but later medieval swords combined the cutting (rather than chopping) functionality of earlier Western swords with serious increases in weight and length and became more and more geared toward effective thrusting.

Having said that, you should be able to use it simultaniously with the wakizachi and kogatana (hidden inside the saya atm) as per irl and at least until someone (with any brains) adds more samurai weapons for simultanious use, I would reccomend a 26-27 pt upgrade in the katana speed of the katana to simulate that there would be more samurai weapons if this was a good mod.
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: B3RS3RK on January 23, 2012, 04:08:47 pm
Quote from: Ninja_Khorin on January 23, 2012, 02:27:55 am
I dunno. I once hearedd taht a japanese or somthin swung a akatana so fast it broke the sound barrirer and blew up the village. so it

 pertty fast alright

Then again, in
 interest of game balance. Maybe a 7  -  9 more cut and 1 less pierce could do teh trick


    Chamber arrows too.

                                Good tred.

Yeah I once heard someone in japan swung a katana so fast it caused a tsunami and a Nuclear catastrophe.
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 23, 2012, 04:33:56 pm
[kwote author=B3RS3RK link=topic=24724.msg357525#msg357525 date=1327331327]
Yeah I once heard someone in japan swung a katana so fast it caused a tsunami and a Nuclear catastrophe.
[/kwote]

i herdd   taht 2,
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Teeth on January 23, 2012, 04:37:58 pm
I like this new Khorin
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: dodnet on January 23, 2012, 04:40:07 pm
Quote from: Ninja_Khorin on January 23, 2012, 04:33:56 pm
[kwote author=B3RS3RK link=topic=24724.msg357525#msg357525 date=1327331327]
Yeah I once heard someone in japan swung a katana so fast it caused a tsunami and a Nuclear catastrophe.
[/kwote]

i herdd   taht 2,

Confess! It was YOU!
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: SquishMitten on January 23, 2012, 04:53:03 pm
Quote from: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 23, 2012, 01:30:44 am
(click to show/hide)

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Also if you drop a katana you shouldn't be able to pick it up, as it is so sharp it cuts its way through the floor
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Renay on January 23, 2012, 05:03:46 pm
Quote from: SquishMitten on January 23, 2012, 04:53:03 pm

Also if you drop a katana you shouldn't be able to pick it up, as it is so sharp it cuts its way through the floor

If the katana blocks a swing by another weapon the other weapon should break in half cause the katana is so sharp, also katana should not be blockable
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Siiem on January 23, 2012, 06:17:14 pm
Stop making threads already.
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Christo on January 23, 2012, 07:33:24 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on January 23, 2012, 04:37:58 pm
I like this new Khorin
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Penitent on January 23, 2012, 08:44:19 pm
Longswords were and are NOT heavier than Katanas.  Some examples might be, and vice versa..but on the whole they all weighed 2.8-3.6 lbs.  Of course there are outliers.

Katanas are better at slicing because of the curved blade.  Longswords were unquestionably better at thrusting due to the highly tapered point....Kind of the way it appears now in game exactly!!!

Yes, Katanas were not as good against metal armor, because they were not designed to emphasize a thrust.  A slash or chop would be less effective against metal armor.  The metal armor that Feudal Japanese soldiers used is much different than the metal armor European soldiers used.  A katana would not be very effective against an opponent clad in a plate suit, but it would deal better against a samarai in metal armor.
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Peasant_Woman on January 24, 2012, 12:38:33 am
Honestly, katanas should be semi-ranged weapons. Swing your katana at air, and after a short minigame (focus energy) you emit a windslash
breaking the sound barrier and instantly killing the first enemy it touches
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Renay on January 24, 2012, 01:06:39 am
Quote from: Peasant_Woman on January 24, 2012, 12:38:33 am
Honestly, katanas should be semi-ranged weapons. Swing your katana at air, and after a short minigame (focus energy) you emit a windslash
breaking the sound barrier and instantly killing the first enemy it touches

agreed
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Casimir on January 25, 2012, 03:59:09 am
just buff katana damage to 60 cut, add a throwing mode and increase the weapon length by 200 already!
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 25, 2012, 04:55:29 am
(click to show/hide)

Now were all getting in to it. I love realism subsugestion forum, tis the only place other than spam everyone can freely talk utter shit :D That is directed at me, and everyone that isn't having a rage black out as they read this thread, those that allow themselves to be amused by the absurd.

Onto a serious point!

(click to show/hide)
TL:DR enough of my gable now to begin the dueling youtube videos!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo)
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Bobthehero on January 25, 2012, 06:28:47 am
That is a shitty video and its been shot down many times.
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Artyem on January 25, 2012, 07:00:14 am
6 Ironflesh with chainmail and I during two hours trip to the Rageball server I found that one guy with a Katana one shot me while it took Darth_Maul 2 or 3 to kill me.

Usually I'd rage over the great maul, but it's hard to when the Katana seems to have equal to or greater than damage than it, not to mention the fact it flies through the air at 101 speed backing up its 37 cut.

If anything, the longsword should do more cutting damage than the katana because it weighs more in game, and the Katana should be lowered to 33 - 34 cut, but it should also receive a bonus to its pierce damage.


That's my two cents.

Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 25, 2012, 09:25:19 am
Its fair point you make. And really I don't want it to get a buff. I'm still pissed that its faster than my Side Sword, my swords a pointy fucking stick, it doesnt' weigh anything! Oh well.

But yes back to the rambling ranting.

No your a doofus bobthewrong, your so wrong. Wronger...
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 25, 2012, 01:56:26 pm
A quick google I made told me the side sword is about 2.5 pounds while katana is 2.5-3.5 pounds. Not that much of a difference.

als. i onse red taht

katnans were yoused by   samurai to  bolck arorws. Tahts why  they,  dint haev,  shilds!!1
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Penitent on January 25, 2012, 06:45:25 pm
Quote
Garison, you said "Longswords were unquestionably better at thrusting" I have a crapy youtube video that begs to differ. Really though these 2 swords are very similar against heavy armour, to the point where it makes no real difference. A katana will blow away the Long Sword in a cutting fight with crap armour but once you step up into scale and plate the 2 weapons platue out and the only real difference at that point to the killing power of either sword is in the hands of context and that is all.

There is a lot of jingoistic white power bullshit around this EU vs Asia sword debate, I've sat on both sides of the fence. Its almost rascist. But its mostly just ignorance.

Who here can put there hand up and say "Here is scientifc trail of both swords vis a vis thier capacity to blow armour into bits/killing power" I sure as hell can't and I doubt anyone else around here can.

I've used both and they both seem perfectly capable of fucking up your day. I got the same results from thrusts and cuts out of both, the only real difference was the Katana kept going through tougher stuff. The long sword dented an old Ford's bonet wish a slash and the Katana left a hole in it, not much of one but it was thier. I'm not sure what to put that down to, I think its the curve droping more force onto a smaller point.

Thank you for your reply!  First, you should know that I am not racist or culturally elitist or whatever.  I really love katanas and all asians.  I married an asian and I love the culture.  I think it is also unfair to mention the bias of "white power" and not mention the overwhelming cultural bias towards katanas, however deserved it may be.  In one of my previous posts (that I can't find) I did in fact lobby for katanas to be buffed to show their true potential and reflect reality.  Once time my friend had a real katana from japan, and he was playing around with it outside, but he tripped.  The katana slipped out of his hands and landed on a car, but unfortunately the blade was facing down and it cut right through the hood, engine block, and even the tire and wheel well before lodging itself 8-inches in to the pavement.  So trust me I know the power of the katana and the legendary cutting abilities it possesses that have been proved time and time again. :)

The longsword, however, was better at thrusting.  Scientific evidence for this is abounding.   Modern "tests" may or may not show this, depending on the item that is being thrust in to, irregularities in the strength or thickness of different areas of the item, irregularities in the posture, power, and other effects on the thrust of the sword wielder, and irregularities in the swords being used (type of metal, sharpness, hardness, etc).  Because of all these areas where possible error can be introduced during an "at home" test, I'm can only reference physics principles and historical examples. :)

For example, consider the smaller suface area of the tip.  The very tip of the tip of both the longsword and katana are the same, but once the sword has pierced 1/2 inch or more in to the armor/flesh/whatrver, the katana's "tanto" point will have a larger surface area and have more resistance going in.  This is science. 

There are other reasons why the Longsword is a better thrusting weapon, in general, although the katana does indeed have a very servicable and lethal thrust.  The longsword is sharpened on both edges, allowing the highly tapered point to pass more easily into (and out of) an object or person.  This further reduces the friction and resistance making the thrust not only easier but also faster.  This is science.  In addition, the flex of a longsword blade (especially in latter examples) is very rigid indeed.  Many blades had risers instead of fullers on them, increasing this rigidness, allowing more of the push energy to be directed into the point.  In addition to the rigidness of the overall blade, the cross-section of the tip of later period longswords morphs into a diamond shape, adding even more rigidity to the end section of the blade, allowing even more energy to be transferred to the tip during a thrust.  Lastly, the Longsword blade is longer, making for a greater reach in thrusting.  These is a scientific facts of physics. :)

Both swords are very good at injuring, maiming, and killing in a variety of ways.  Both swords were designed and evolved over hundreds of years to become the best they were at what they did.  No sword is superior to the other in general...they both represented the epitome of killing technology at their peaks.  Yes, one was created by Europeans and one was created by Japanese...but the human spirit of ingenuity in warfare is pretty much a universal trait.  The Katana can punch through metal.  The Longsword can hack off a limb.  However, I stand by the fact that the longsword was a specially designed instrument made to emphasize the thrust, and that it thrusts more effectively than a katana.  Science stands with me...but more importantly, so does history.  If a katana's "tanto" point was the most effective way to punch through heavy steel armor and kill an enemy, then Eurpoean weapon smiths would have started using this design, and longsword artifacts of the period would look that way as they evolved from the arming swords of the early middle ages.  But, alas, as heavier and thicker armor was used across Europe, weapon designers increasingly tapered and strengthed the tip of the Longsword to counter it, because this is what worked best.  They did not change the blade into a "tanto" point like the katana, though they had the ability to do so.  I hold these truths to be self-evident.

And yes, I am having fun too.  Rage not included. :)

Here is a very nice essay that thoughtfully considers all of the advantages and disadvantages of katana/longsword design, even taking "cultural bias" into account.  It compares cut, thrust, guarding ability, speed, and other technical advantages/disadvantages...all while admitting the shortcomings of such a "study":
http://www.thearma.org/essays/longsword-and-katana.html
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Oberyn on January 26, 2012, 12:36:25 am
They were both symbols of authority, a sign of belonging to a warrior elite. Neither weapon was "the best at what they did", unless by what they did you mean cut appart unarmored peasants. Neither were the primary battlefield weapon for the knight or the samurai, respectively.
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Penitent on January 26, 2012, 12:48:18 am
Quote from: Oberyn on January 26, 2012, 12:36:25 am
They were both symbols of authority, a sign of belonging to a warrior elite. Neither weapon was "the best at what they did", unless by what they did you mean cut appart unarmored peasants. Neither were the primary battlefield weapon for the knight or the samurai, respectively.

You are only partially correct (about 25% correct I'd estimate).  :)  Some swords were of ceremonial purposes only, being symbols of authority.  However, the majority of those produced were meant for battle.  The Longsword in particular was efficient for armored and unarmored combat.  See the writings of Fiore dei Liberi, Italian master at arms whose combat manuals (written in the 14th century) are still available today.  It's true that swords were mostly for nobles or the higher classes, but they were indeed meant for fighting in war and personal defense.

Only nobles and higher classes had swords, because they were expensive.  They were expensive because they required the most workmanship and best materials to produce.  They were indeed the best at what they did...man-to-man combat in a variety of different possible combat scenarios.  Polearms were the most common battlefield weapons, but that's not necessarily because they were the best.  They were cheaper and required less training.   A sword was often a knights major go-to weapon..though they were well versed in many.  The lance is one of the best for killing on horseback...but those were usually 1-use only, not the best for all situations or as dependable as the sword.  Nor is it as good as defending as it is attacking.

There is also a story about Muso Gonnosuke Katsuyoshi, legendary Japanese Bo master.  He would often duel Miyamoto Musashi, the well-known sword master who fought with a katana.  Muso could not defeat Musashi with his polearm, no matter how many times he tried.  The katana was the superior weapon.  It wasn't until Muso modified his staff that he was able to gain the upper hand in their fights.
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Christo on January 26, 2012, 12:50:53 am
Quote from: Garison on January 26, 2012, 12:48:18 am
It wasn't until Muso modified his staff that he was able to gain the upper hand.

Let me guess, that's how the Naginata was born?

Not really into japanese stuff.  :)
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Penitent on January 26, 2012, 12:51:43 am
Quote from: Christo on January 26, 2012, 12:50:53 am
Let me guess, that's how the Naginata was born, in this story?

Actually, he shortened his Bo, making it a Jo...and it was more maneuverable and faster. :)

About 4 ft instead of 6 ft...the same size, perhaps, as a sword!
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Christo on January 26, 2012, 12:52:35 am
Ah, I see.  :)
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: zagibu on January 26, 2012, 08:18:47 am
Ewryon nose dad katrana detroit nu orleens, SO THEIR!
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 27, 2012, 08:49:40 am
Zag your comment was just unreadable not unintelligible try again.
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: MadJackMcMad on January 31, 2012, 06:36:22 pm
Also, ban the ninja clan for historical inaccuracy.  Ninjas wore dark blue, not black.
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Renay on February 02, 2012, 03:26:32 pm
Quote from: MadJackMcMad on January 31, 2012, 06:36:22 pm
Also, ban the ninja clan for historical inaccuracy.  Ninjas wore dark blue, not black.

lies
Title: Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 01, 2012, 11:02:46 pm
Bump. One more katana thread on top wont hurt anyone
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