cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Strudog on January 17, 2012, 03:11:59 pm

Title: Crossbows damage
Post by: Strudog on January 17, 2012, 03:11:59 pm
After the recent patch i have noticed a serious decrease in damage for the crossbows and has rendered the Arbalest almost useless. I have a MW arbalest and +1 steel bolts and it takes me two shots to kill a peasent, surely there is something wrong here? The new patch has effected xbowers more than archers. And i didnt see much chat for the change in xbows? i wouldnt mind if there was a longer reloading time or if there was a nerf in any department but nerfing the damage makes it useless.

I dont know what other people think but do you guys reckon it should stay the same or go back to what it was before?

cheers

Strudog
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: PanPan on January 17, 2012, 03:13:39 pm
still its pierce not that useful on peasants as cut...
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Strudog on January 17, 2012, 03:16:21 pm
but it never used to be 2 hit kill on peasents so why the change?
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: ThePoopy on January 17, 2012, 03:37:12 pm
aim head
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Okkam on January 17, 2012, 03:41:39 pm
I wouldnt mind if there was a longer reloading time for all xbows too. They still shoot too fast.
And no - leave damage as it is now. Oneshot - worst idea for any multiplayer game
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Sir_Ironlake on January 17, 2012, 03:49:21 pm
Yeah Okkam, but note that the 1 shot takes as much time as 4 shots for an archer.

And also note, that while reloading, unlike archer, you must be stationary (easy bait). Or find cover (meaning more then 4 shots compared to archer)

So if it takes me 2 shots with Arbalest to kill a peasnt, that means the equivalent of 10 arrows?

Using an Arbalest isnt easy, its not just about 1 shoting, for each 1 shot (hit or miss, kill or wound) you reload for a long long time, and while you do yr open to attacks, and any move to evade or any smallest hit means all over a new reload.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: LastKaze on January 17, 2012, 03:56:56 pm
Yeah Okkam, but note that the 1 shot takes as much time as 4 shots for an archer.

And also note, that while reloading, unlike archer, you must be stationary (easy bait). Or find cover (meaning more then 4 shots compared to archer)

So if it takes me 2 shots with Arbalest to kill a peasnt, that means the equivalent of 10 arrows?

Using an Arbalest isnt easy, its not just about 1 shoting, for each 1 shot (hit or miss, kill or wound) you reload for a long long time, and while you do yr open to attacks, and any move to evade or any smallest hit means all over a new reload.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Osiris on January 17, 2012, 03:58:25 pm
"And i didnt see much chat for the change in xbows?"

you have to be joking :P

everyone and their mother using xbows was the biggest problem apart from roof camping archers :P
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: karasu on January 17, 2012, 04:01:23 pm
The devs already made clear that the idea of reducing body damage and increase is to stay, even with a little possible tweaking.

Improving the reload time would have been the best choice for all parties, as DaveUSSR stated several times.

So my personal advice, either sell / trade your crossbow for good while you can, or simply keep playing with it and copy cat those extremely exceptional self-claimed overpowered archers, that keep shooting on wounded targets for sure kills to raise e-peen on ego-meters.

I, for one, as stated several times find this measure extremely unbalancing and the reasons are obvious. This is now the age of Jedi Boromirs, I'm pretty sure those historical inaccurate shield-less e-warriors are having a blast now with no counters.

Thanks devs, for giving me a reason again to take a small break on cRPG.

(。◕‿◕。)/
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Memento_Mori on January 17, 2012, 04:03:38 pm
 :rolleyes: I miss using 1 wpf and an arbalest and 1-3 (3 on the heavy STR tanks) shotting people but 3-5 shotting with my +2 yumi bow and bodkin arrows that I had 150 wpf and 6 skill points in. Good times, IMO xbows shouldn't be close to the effectiveness as archery or throwing since xbows cost no skill points, faster missile speed, and infinite aim time.

Also reload time with arbalest and 1 wpf is less than 12 seconds.

Good times.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Okkam on January 17, 2012, 04:03:58 pm
"And i didnt see much chat for the change in xbows?"
you have to be joking :P
everyone and their mother using xbows was the biggest problem apart from roof camping archers :P

Be careful, this place can be overflood in no time with rivers of hypocrites tears
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on January 17, 2012, 04:11:11 pm
Im more intresting in this, if we have now 67% dmg, and if it is rain so we have some penalty, in some guides it says 25% dmg penalty when it is rain, so if it is rain i have only 52% dmg with my arbalest? then what the point for me to take it ? and pay so high repairs? when i can make more dmg with 1h simple hit?

And about arbalest- it is weapon for snipers, to shoot at long distance, it is just impossible to aim in head even with 170 wpf, if target is far from you )
so if distance is big we anyway needed 2 shoots, now we need 3- so to kill 1 enemy ranged i need 3 bolts, from my 13 bolts, and it is even worse if it is rain) just lol gj devs)
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Memento_Mori on January 17, 2012, 04:18:38 pm
And about arbalest- it is weapon for snipers

Arbalest is a weapon for snipers?

Barret 50 cal is a weapon for snipers.

Arbalest is a crossbow.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Tavuk_Bey on January 17, 2012, 04:22:53 pm
Im more intresting in this, if we have now 67% dmg, and if it is rain so we have some penalty, in some guides it says 25% dmg penalty when it is rain, so if it is rain i have only 52% dmg with my arbalest?


and it fucking rains all the time.. now even the shittiest peasants in shitty clothes can take 2 mw steel bolts  :arrow:
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on January 17, 2012, 04:25:02 pm
Arbalest is a weapon for snipers?

Barret 50 cal is a weapon for snipers.

Arbalest is a crossbow.

Oh fuck you are so smart like Einstein and ofc you have more humor then Jim Kerry wow :rolleyes:

I think devs need at least remove rain dmg penalty for ranged, because with rain it is bullshit.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Harpag on January 17, 2012, 04:34:05 pm
These are the reasons why I don't use arbalest. If after such a long load time and a good shot you still can not kill a peasant, it is better not to treat arbalest as the main weapon. From my point of view, it 's better to use regular weak crossbow, treat it as a additional weapon for inflict wounds. Your team mates will have an easier job and win the round. Do not try to hit the peasant, only the strongest players, just to weaken the opponent's team. Forget about frags, think about the team. If you are lucky and hit an early wounded, you have a frag. Of course it is still headshot, but it is not easy, despite the fact that I have a 100 wpf  points. When it rains, I do not take a crossbow, because it's pointless waste of time. It's hard times for the crossbowmen, so you must change your way of thinking about this weapon. However the cost of upkeep these weapons is indeed a scandal, particularly in relation to horses.
 
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: MrShine on January 17, 2012, 04:35:48 pm
aim head

it was always (or almost always) an insta-kill.  The damage buff to headshots did practically nothing to buff xbows, especially the slow ones like arbalest.

Head shots are "more" viable for faster shooting weapons because you'll get more chances. 

Also pierce is just as effective as cut for doing damage to low armor IIRC, it's just that cut weapons typically have a higher base damage than pierce and blunt weapons. 
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Siboire on January 17, 2012, 04:42:40 pm
As an ex user of MW arbalest... yup RIP dedicated arbalester build...

Rain fucks you too often nowadays and now with the latest patch, it made dedicated "arbalesters" near useless. For the time it takes to reload a damm arbalest I dont mind much the damage when I get shot by one.  The problem pre-patch was the sheer amount of xbow users using light and regular xbows with a 2-slot weapon, not some dedicated xbowman with an arbalest and a 1h as side arm. 

arbalest IMO should not be affected by this new "range rule" of 67% damage for body shot.

This comes from a "jedi boromir"... Just saying.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Porkthegreat on January 17, 2012, 05:10:10 pm
watching people in cloth take 2 arb bolts is the funniest thing in the world.  I mostly play polearm...Its great walking around with 10 bolts/arrows in me :)   Ok, Being serious now,  I think the damage on ranged was nerfed a bit too much. 
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: PanPan on January 17, 2012, 05:13:15 pm
Yeah Okkam, but note that the 1 shot takes as much time as 4 shots for an archer.

And also note, that while reloading, unlike archer, you must be stationary (easy bait). Or find cover (meaning more then 4 shots compared to archer)

So if it takes me 2 shots with Arbalest to kill a peasnt, that means the equivalent of 10 arrows?

Using an Arbalest isnt easy, its not just about 1 shoting, for each 1 shot (hit or miss, kill or wound) you reload for a long long time, and while you do yr open to attacks, and any move to evade or any smallest hit means all over a new reload.
depends wich bow ur using cus the Long Bow isnt the fastest...

and Archery is rly UP and other ranged now cus I run around in monks robe and a archer with mw horn bow and barbed arrows takes like ONLY 20 % of my life (no IF 21 str)
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Ragni_Bross on January 17, 2012, 05:53:33 pm
Crossbow's too weak compared to bows? Nerf bows :P
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Ronald_Meliossandro on January 17, 2012, 06:00:02 pm
So now we (archers / xbowman) have to start to cry and complain like the other whiners.
I personally do not whine as much, but this last patch has really ruined the game for me.
That ladders is gone are ok for me but to nerf damage on ranged ITS bahhhh
The truth is that those who most complain about is the player who wants to be top of the scoring list.
Go and play Hello Kitty if you think this game is too hard with all ranged.
But unfortunately, it's already too late so congratulate to all whiners.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Brutal on January 17, 2012, 06:43:06 pm
The truth is that those who most complain about is the player who wants to be top of the scoring list.

The truth is that the people who complain the most are usually already on the top of the scoring list.
And stats have shown that range kill way less than melee....

My main is melee but i ve some ranged alts that i play a lot just because i got bored of melee, not because archery or xbow or thrower is so fking Op OMG motherfucka u bundle of sticks.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Ronald_Meliossandro on January 17, 2012, 06:50:35 pm
The truth is that the people who complain the most are usually already on the top of the scoring list.
And stats have shown that range kill way less than melee....

My main is melee but i ve some ranged alts that i play a lot just because i got bored of melee, not because archery or xbow or thrower is so fking Op OMG motherfucka u bundle of sticks.

Who are you and thanx for the nice insult!
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Strudog on January 17, 2012, 06:53:45 pm
the only way forward that i saw to get rid of all the xbow "my old friends" would have to be a set wpf that a crossbower would have or link crossbows to PD maybe. The arbalest has been rendered useless with the new patch and means that 2h's can run around freely and not have to worry about being shot.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on January 17, 2012, 06:54:18 pm
ronald my sweet noobi( now when rain starts i put crpg off(
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Nessaj on January 17, 2012, 06:57:00 pm
It isn't fair basing the effectiveness of ranged on purely kills. Loads of people are hit by tons of ranged for then to die to melee.

The only way to track it properly would be via damage done in total.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Gurnisson on January 17, 2012, 06:58:13 pm
Buff crossbow damage - keep archery as is

This. Maybe buff throwing a bit too.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Siboire on January 18, 2012, 02:21:28 am
This. Maybe buff throwing a bit too.

Buff only 2 slots xbows (heavy and arbalest), not the 1 slot u can pull out of ur arse and keep a danish or bec or wtv to duel, my opinion...
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Zerran on January 18, 2012, 04:06:14 am
Need to keep it like it is for now and see what happens. Currently everyone playing xbow is specced for the old system, so many of them are only at 100 wpf or so, compared to the 170+ needed by archers. Things should improve for them once they spec properly for the new system. If things are still bad in a few weeks, then I would say it needs revision however.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Oggrinsky on January 18, 2012, 04:47:10 am
It's not really all that bad... I'd be much happier if damage was kept the same but they brought back the old Xbow accuracy.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Turkhammer on January 18, 2012, 04:56:14 am
blank
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Silveredge on January 18, 2012, 05:19:51 am
I would suggest making crossbows reload faster to even out the damage nerf.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Oggrinsky on January 18, 2012, 05:36:01 am
I would suggest making crossbows reload faster to even out the damage nerf.

This too, especially with the removal of ladders.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Nightingale on January 18, 2012, 11:01:40 am
I don't know about you People but I have 160 wpf in my Masterwork Arbalest.  and only a tiny 60 wpf in 1 hand'er

I really Enjoy playing as a Arbalest user... Id be okay with Weakening  the Lighter crossbows... making them less ACC less missle speed less reload time though.

As for the Arbalest it was fine and fun be4 the patch screwed it up

I think after the patch i could do more damage with Rocks.

Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Rebelyell on January 18, 2012, 01:10:20 pm
PLS don't give a shit about aim for head, its really hard, Xbow clas i killed now with my MW bolts and xbow i cant one hit anythin.
Yea  you think then i want one hut everything??? NO i want be abel to kill pesants and archers with shot, archers never give me 2nd chance to relode on open field. Anyway some archers was abel to survive shot. ther is so many shit with crossbows now.... i am really sad because of that
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: bredeus on January 18, 2012, 01:22:11 pm
Rebell just aim for head...
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: AvengerC47 on January 18, 2012, 01:36:57 pm
Arbalest is still good

but only agianst heavy horses when shooting in head
it does more dmg than any other ranged wep and... has one shot, u can't dodge the unkilled horse or ppl and then shoot again

i remember the time when reloading was much slower but dmg was like xbow dmg, not like bows

now, i need mostly 3 (THREE) shots to kill player (not wounded by anyone) with MW Arbalest + MW Steel Bolts

I was always killing the half with mace or 1h, now its 2/3 or more


Xbow needs faster bolts too, they are flying like turtles throwed by cathapult
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Tavuk_Bey on January 18, 2012, 02:19:28 pm
Buff only 2 slots xbows (heavy and arbalest), not the 1 slot u can pull out of ur arse and keep a danish or bec or wtv to duel, my opinion...

+1

i'm dedicated arbalester and i only have long dagger for melee fight. good to see that shitty 2h & crossbow spammer hybrids noobs are no longer effective with the patch. but this nerf also ruined dedicated arbalesters & heavy crossbowmen.

by using mw arbalest, you sacrifice 10 secs of reloading time and also around 1500 gold each round, in return, you deal high amounts of piercing damage. now it's totally fucked up. especially when it rains *it always rains in fucking calradia*, your mw arbalest & mw steel bolts are useless, even the people in shitty linen clothes can survive at least 2 shots, some of them survives headshots as well, which means you are fucked in skirmish against monkey archers.

i understand if devs want to prevent one shot kills. so, what i suggest is, keep the damage nerf but decrease the reloading time of arbalest by 2 secs or decrease the repair cost, or remove the negative effects of goddamn rain.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Tomas on January 18, 2012, 04:00:07 pm
This nerf is just a complete fail by the devs to actually identify the problems and come up with simple solutions that do not have wide ranging repercussions.

The main problem with all ranged was that they could escape their natural counter - Cav - by hiding on any roof.  This has now been fixed so I congratulate the Devs on that, however to me this is such a massive change to the fundamentals of cRPG, that it should have been done on its own and the repercussions fully tested before doing any further balancing

The next problem with ranged was the fact that the best bows were no longer the most expensive since the piercing change.  Horn Bow + Bodkins doing 24p is better than Long Bow + Tatar Arrows doing 35c yet the Horn Bow option is cheaper.  I say better because you are not only doing piercing damage instead of cut, but you are also firing faster and can carry either an extra quiver or a decent melee weapon.  The simple solution to this would be to make the 1 slot bows 30% more expensive, which would place the Horn Bow at around the same price as the Rus Bow.  This would remove the Horn Bow as the obvious choice for virtually all archers adding variety to the game, whilst also nerfing the number of bodkins in the game rather than their damage.

The final problem with ranged was the xbow as a side arm issue.   The simple solution here would have been to make all xbows 2 slots.  The only people that would complain about this are the Horse Xbowers, who should not exist imo, and the xbow sidearm users.  Dedicated Arbalasters would not have been nerfed so much that they are only barely a viable class these days.

The only people that Crossbowers and Archers 1 body-shotted in the past, were low level peasants and high agility/low armour wearing ninjas.  The peasants get 1 hit killed by everything so why is that unfair? and the ninjas chose their builds to sacrifice armour/HPs for speed.  Hitting them when they were aware was and still is very difficult and if you miss with your Arbalest then you don't get another chance.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Silveredge on January 18, 2012, 06:41:37 pm
Actually, the best thing that could ever happen is if they took out the Rain Effect.  Or NOT EVEN the whole effect just the Drastic change to the arc of the shot from a crossbow.  You can keep your rain damage nerf. 

I can adjust my shots pretty well, but since you can't be sure if it's raining or not sometimes, it gets really annoying when I have to change my play constantly for the first few shots of every other map(Even when it's not raining visually, you realize really fast that it is when your shot goes awry).  Especially when every shot is so critical for crossbowers when you have to take so long to reload.  Having a reload interrupted is devastating to a crossbower.  The average xbowman does not realize that utilizing every second of the round is key.  Getting off as many shots as you can before they close the gap is everything.  It changes it from a guaranteed death from being swamped by too many players to giving yourself a chance with eliminating 1 or 2 out of the 6 coming at you, before being forced into melee.

I don't see the game messing with any melee/cav swing/thrust speed/arc each map change.  You have that group of players getting more and more solid with their play because it remains constant.  If the stupid missile speed/arc effect was removed I would finally be 100% happy with playing my class even with the damage nerfs.  Then I could concentrate on improving my play like every other non-crossbow player in this game.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Nightingale on January 18, 2012, 09:14:07 pm
I just don't see Why The crossbow users have to be Head shot hero's I say Keep the arch Undo the Damage nerf completely keep the reload speed Everything for Heavier Tier xbows were fine be4 patch
after the Patch I can effectively kill more With my Tiny mace thing then i can with my Main weapon

When fighting other Arbalest users and Archers with High PD, i laugh when they hit me... i have 0 ironflesh, and around total of 30 armor or so, arbalest takes 1/4 of my health and High pd archers take about 1/6 completely bs for all ranged units Undo the Nerf patch and keep ladders out

They should make were the 2 handed crossbowmen not Possible, Best Choice would be to make 2 handed weapons such as Dadao or danish great sword 3 slots. I mean do you really need the other slot? you cant use ladders anymore, You shouldnt be using xbows with 1 wpf. same goes for polearms i dont really think they would care to much how offend do you see a pole arm/2 hand'er pull out a back up weapon that is 2 slots?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: LastKaze on January 18, 2012, 11:26:36 pm
I just don't see Why The crossbow users have to be Head shot hero's I say Keep the arch Undo the Damage nerf completely keep the reload speed Everything for Heavier Tier xbows were fine be4 patch
after the Patch I can effectively kill more With my Tiny mace thing then i can with my Main weapon

When fighting other Arbalest users and Archers with High PD, i laugh when they hit me... i have 0 ironflesh, and around total of 30 armor or so, arbalest takes 1/4 of my health and High pd archers take about 1/6 completely bs for all ranged units Undo the Nerf patch and keep ladders out

They should make were the 2 handed crossbowmen not Possible, Best Choice would be to make 2 handed weapons such as Dadao or danish great sword 3 slots. I mean do you really need the other slot? you cant use ladders anymore, You shouldnt be using xbows with 1 wpf. same goes for polearms i dont really think they would care to much how offend do you see a pole arm/2 hand'er pull out a back up weapon that is 2 slots?  :rolleyes:
Agreed, make top tier 2handed weapons 3 slots so that less 2handers will use low tier xbows as "sidearms". Though I am very disappointed in the devs picking on range every patch, I did not mind them taking ladders out of battle, but taking ladders out of siege is just insane.
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Tavuk_Bey on January 19, 2012, 12:20:53 am
after the Patch I can effectively kill more With my Tiny mace thing then i can with my Main weapon

lol same goes for me too, i got most of my kills with my plastic long dagger. today i hit random_dude 3 times in the head with mw arbalest & mw steel bolts and he was still alive before taking 4th shot in the chest.. bullshit..
Title: Re: Crossbows damage
Post by: Nightingale on January 19, 2012, 12:58:50 am
ya another Patch just came out, Nothing about fixing the problems with ranged weapons everything in the patch was for Rage ball xD Btw it is a fun game mode just dont bring your archer/xbow ppl regain health