cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Kreczor on January 15, 2012, 04:15:43 am

Title: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Kreczor on January 15, 2012, 04:15:43 am
So, here I am, second time retiring and almost doing it for the third and I'm being told that my build sucks.

Let me tell you a little about my crpg history:
Light cav (~2 months)
Sword and Board (~20-25 days)
Archer(~5 days)
Spearman(~a month)
and finally hoplite(~1-2 months worked in with others)

The current level 30 build that I'm going for will be 23-15 with:
7 Ironflesh
7 Power Strike
5 Shield
5 Athletics
1 Weapon Master

all wpf to polearms.

Ever since my last retire, I've been playing hoplite with an ashwood pike and a round shield. I'm currently at +2 ashwood pike as my only heirloom and I've been receiving quite a few negative comments on it. To my knowledge, as it comes to me from a high knowledgeable member of LLJK, that the Ashwood Pike is the highest damaging hoplite weapon in the game at the moment since the awlpike is no longer usable with a shield. I receive constant flak as I'm told that the hoplite is a "garbage class", a "broken class", and is generally disliked by the overall public of the game.

Personally, I feel like the hoplite is in a fair state of game, as I still do fairly well as one (I can average a 5-3 kd on average which is pretty good for my unskilled playstyle). Of course I still feel as if I could be a bit more powerful, and as I hear on irc and in-game, so do a lot of other people.

So, my question to you is, how do you feel the Hoplite class is doing compared to other classes currently? Do you feel that it is overpowered, underpowered or perfect the way it is? Is it limited to what it can do and needs to be buffed a bit?

I would love to hear your opinions so please do not feel obligated to post based on your current build (ie nerf paper, scissors are fine, sincerely rock).

~~LOVE KRECZOR~~
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Dezilagel on January 15, 2012, 04:19:25 am
As long as you don't hug your shield 24/7, the hoplite is a great class. Put some points in riding and you have the class of ultimate versatility.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Christo on January 15, 2012, 04:20:01 am
Lol.

Not long ago the Ashwood Pike was an almost useless piece of junk.

Spear/Shielders get finally a dedicated weapon, that can kick ass even without their shield, ergo they are a bit viable, and people are going mad.
 I heard a lot of "Asswood Pike" and other crap too, and also got killed by one. Shit happens.

as it comes to me from a high knowledgeable member of LLJK, that the Ashwood Pike is the highest damaging hoplite weapon in the game at the moment since the awlpike is no longer usable with a shield. I receive constant flak as I'm told that the hoplite is a "garbage class", a "broken class", and is generally disliked by the overall public of the game.

Even though I am EU, I hear things about LLJK. Do you really handle that opinion so important? Ingore it.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Kreczor on January 15, 2012, 04:24:17 am
Lol.

Not long ago the Ashwood Pike was an almost useless piece of junk.

Spear/Shielders get finally a dedicated weapon, that can kick ass even without their shield, ergo they are a bit viable, and people are going mad.
 I heard a lot of "Asswood Pike" and other crap too, and also got killed by one. Shit happens.

Even though I am EU, I hear things about LLJK. Do you really handle that opinion so important? Ingore it.

As a member of LLJK I would find it ignorant to not listen to someone whose been playing this game for so long. I appreciate your opinion on the matter however. The only problem I'm having is that I feel like I'm not playing a hoplite properly without my shield, however with it equipped I'm limited to the easily blockable thrust. Without a right sided 180 degree turn thrust, I can't seem to land a hit on those damn shielders!
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Cepeshi on January 15, 2012, 04:31:33 am
May i ask why 23/15? If you do not go for multiplications of three, the extra att. points are useless. If i was you, i would transfer the 2extra for skill and go with 5 WM, so it would look like:

21/15
 7 IF+PS
 5 shield, athl, WM

should get you around 150wfp, i played this build as onehander, was quite viable.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Kreczor on January 15, 2012, 04:40:42 am
May i ask why 23/15? If you do not go for multiplications of three, the extra att. points are useless. If i was you, i would transfer the 2extra for skill and go with 5 WM, so it would look like:

21/15
 7 IF+PS
 5 shield, athl, WM

should get you around 150wfp, i played this build as onehander, was quite viable.
The reason I go for 23/15 instead of 21/15 is because I run around in extremely light armor so I'm generally easy to kill. With the extra health it allows me to survive for much longer and I don't feel the WM would help me as much as you think.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: isatis on January 15, 2012, 04:46:14 am
May i ask why 23/15? If you do not go for multiplications of three, the extra att. points are useless. If i was you, i would transfer the 2extra for skill and go with 5 WM, so it would look like:

21/15
 7 IF+PS
 5 shield, athl, WM

should get you around 150wfp, i played this build as onehander, was quite viable.
he want a 31 24/15 gimped built


oh wait sneak response...

bleh my answer is better
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Cepeshi on January 15, 2012, 04:47:47 am
The reason I go for 23/15 instead of 21/15 is because I run around in extremely light armor so I'm generally easy to kill. With the extra health it allows me to survive for much longer and I don't feel the WM would help me as much as you think.

Well, to be honest, 2 more STR points over 4 WM when you already have 7 IF, that is weird choice:) But, whatever floats your boat, i always maxed out WM in every build so far, sometimes it can really make a difference. How much wpf you gonna get with this build anw? If under 100, then it is not that good imho (not just for the repair chance).

Well yeah, if he goes for 31 and on, then i get it :) But, if this is designated for 30 and then retire the minute he hits 31, i would do it differently due to reasons stated above :)
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Kreczor on January 15, 2012, 04:53:35 am
Well, to be honest, 2 more STR points over 4 WM when you already have 7 IF, that is weird choice:) But, whatever floats your boat, i always maxed out WM in every build so far, sometimes it can really make a difference. How much wpf you gonna get with this build anw? If under 100, then it is not that good imho (not just for the repair chance).

Well yeah, if he goes for 31 and on, then i get it :) But, if this is designated for 30 and then retire the minute he hits 31, i would do it differently due to reasons stated above :)

Without any points in WM you reach 111 at level 30. By 30 I should have.... well I don't really know to be honest! I tend to die quite a bit so that's why I prefer the higher armor/hp when it comes to builds. Perhaps when I become a bit more skilled I will pursue a more WM sided build.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Cepeshi on January 15, 2012, 04:58:57 am
Without any points in WM you reach 111 at level 30. By 30 I should have.... well I don't really know to be honest! I tend to die quite a bit so that's why I prefer the higher armor/hp when it comes to builds. Perhaps when I become a bit more skilled I will pursue a more WM sided build.

True that when i started playing this, i usually went more str and IF pumped builds in order to survive a little, but later as my skills started to develop (i am not the best, not even one among the above average, i consider myself average player pretty much), i found more agi builds more fun. Usually i go for 15/18str, with full PS and 1-3 points in IF (not many more left), and even with this "squishy" build sometimes i can kill 3-5 guys before they kill me :)
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Kreczor on January 15, 2012, 05:03:44 am
So by the responses in this thread being limited to but a few players, I have to assume that the popularity of the hoplite build is quite low. Does anyone have an idea as to why this is? I have lots of fun personally playing it, and although the choice of class is entirely subjective to the person playing, it does raise questions as to why more people don't try it out. I'm sure if more people did we would have a more substantial place in the crpg world. By this I mean; there are very few well known hoplites.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Christo on January 15, 2012, 05:16:21 am
Simple.

You are countered by a down block, and die alone.

It's dedicated support with one attack direction, it's not for everyone.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Cepeshi on January 15, 2012, 05:17:19 am
Well, that KingGylpe comes to mind, aswell as SlickyRicky and if i tried remember much, much harder, i might come in with another one...do not take this as any statistics tho, i have seen quite a lot hoplites recently actually, with the ashwood pike and huscarls or whatnot, and i have quite problems fighting them. They just freaking facehug you and spinthrust the shit outta you, sometimes they manage to do that even thru block. Was thinking of going hoplite/polecav for my ultimate build for lvl 32 actually, with some riding, shield and all the other shit so it would be viable both on foot and on whorsie :)

Me, personally, i would say numbers of hoplites increased recently, but that might be subjective as i really remember getting stabbed by some shielded guy quite often :)

Christo: even when i approach guy with downblock and he is good hoplite, i get owned...he starts spinning and shit and even before i realise he released his weapon i already lost HP (or life)
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Winterly on January 15, 2012, 05:21:32 am
I used to hug the shield, but I'm trying a build with no shield this time. I spent a shit-ton of time on the duel servers honing my block/dodge skills and I feel like I'm actually getting better at this game.  The shield makes the hoplite class too stagnant/predictable. I fought you a few times Krek, the speed disadvantage + the less dmg is way too detrimental.  You'll do a lot better without the shield using footwork and weaving...I'm looking for a loomed ashwood pike right now and I plan to use it without a shield as well.

(Only time to use a shield is obviously against enemy ranged)
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Kreczor on January 15, 2012, 05:31:06 am
I used to hug the shield, but I'm trying a build with no shield this time. I spent a shit-ton of time on the duel servers honing my block/dodge skills and I feel like I'm actually getting better at this game.  The shield makes the hoplite class too stagnant/predictable. I fought you a few times Krek, the speed disadvantage + the less dmg is way too detrimental.  You'll do a lot better without the shield using footwork and weaving...I'm looking for a loomed ashwood pike right now and I plan to use it without a shield as well.

(Only time to use a shield is obviously against enemy ranged)
I figured as much, as of late I've been ditching the shield in melee battle. I just figured (thought more of) that I'm not playing a hoplite unless I have the shield out.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Winterly on January 15, 2012, 05:48:03 am
I figured as much, as of late I've been ditching the shield in melee battle. I just figured (thought more of) that I'm not playing a hoplite unless I have the shield out.

In reality down blocks aren't going to save you from thrusts xD making shield-walls/hoplites pretty darn amazing with their outranging spears...but warband soldiers have supreme hand-eye coordination to direct a sword/polearm to counter that spearpoint.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Nagasoup on January 15, 2012, 06:19:50 am
I love hoplite it is my favourite class. However, bad thing is warband mechanics does not support realistic combat. Spear/shield is the most widely used weapons in history, but in warband its the least... One downblock can defeat infinite number of hoplites  :mad:

Personally I use 18/18 polearm and 1h hoplite hybrid build.

Iron Flesh    6
Power Strike    6
Shield    5
Athletics    6
Weapon Master    6

One Handed    119
Polearm    118

Very versatile build, great anti-cav support, and can hold my own against 2hand duelists.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Huey Newton on January 15, 2012, 07:18:47 am
longspear/pike wiggle more annoying than hoplite
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Zerran on January 15, 2012, 08:29:53 am
longspear/pike wiggle more annoying than hoplite

This is basically the reason hoplite isn't popular. Pike outranges you even with the +50 range the 1handed animation gives. Additionally the thrust just seems incredibly slow, even compared to the pike. It also seems like hoplites glance a ton. Would be nice to see this class get some love. Maybe just a buff to 1hand pole speed.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Glyph on January 15, 2012, 10:04:22 am
your build is f*cked up, the 23 STR only gives you 2 more HP, which is of no use compared to the WM you gain it you don't turn your skill points into attribute points. ask you LLJK friend what's better, he'llsay the same.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Teeth on January 15, 2012, 12:03:07 pm
Use the ashwood pike without a shield and you'll be the most OP class in the game, like me! Did that weapon recently get buffed or something? Never noticed its stats until a week ago and have been using it ever since with great succes.

On hopliting:

I have done some hopliting in the past and its effectivity should not be underestimated. Too bad I suck with a shield and are better off without it. I did pretty well with a shield though and even in 1 vs 1's. Lots of crazy spinning and feinting, combined with getting double hits in due to polestagger make it pretty viable. I used a warspear though, should've used a red tassel spear.

I've been told the ashwood pike gets additional penalty with a shield because of its above a certain number length. The penalty it gets in speed is like 35% instead of 15% for somewhat shorter spears, these numbers might not be perfectly accurate. So a warspear or red tassel spear (I would go for red tassel, 2 more speed for 1 less stab is definitely worth it, the less blunt damage doesn't matter as a dedicated hoplite) gives you a lot more speed, for a little bit less length which is worth it.

You really need to be able to get two hits in if someone gets polestaggerned and I'm not sure the ashwood pike is able to do that.

In group fighting its really effective anyway, my clanmate Gravoth has gotten insane scores as a lightly armoured hoplite. Also, I greatly respect hoplites as I think its a cool class, its pretty unique, underused and it was realistically the most used fighting style in any pre guns time period. Keep hopliting mate!
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Overdriven on January 15, 2012, 12:20:47 pm
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,22631.0.html  :P

Anyway we've been playing with it for a bit and tried out some shield walling and stuff. We have a mix of builds, some focus on 1h with spear support, some with ashwood pike, some with red tassled spear ect. As a support choice they all work very well and in a formation, if we work together properly, it can be quite powerful. But on your own in melee you're generally going to have a tough time even when putting away the shield.

Hoplite is deffo best for support and can be very powerful in that role.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Gurnisson on January 15, 2012, 12:55:36 pm
Being a hoplite is jolly good fun. Unfortunately, I would have to reach level 34 on my main before I could possible work as a hoplite.  :|
Gravoth is a great hoplite with his war spear, and Muffin has done well as a hoplite too. It's basically working with a pike, just trading some range for protection from projectiles. I love working with good hoplites.

About the Ashwood Pike, it's the best weapon of its type, and at that price it's quite ridiculous. Compared with the awlpike it has +1 reach +2 speed +1 blunt -2 pierce and can be used with a shield. And the funny part is that it's 3,5 k cheaper than the awlpike :lol:
They should cost about the same, I would say.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Ujin on January 15, 2012, 12:59:05 pm
my lawyers will contact you soon regarding the copyrights for the name of the topic.




P.S.hoplite is an awesome class, if i wasn't cav+1h i'd surely go hoplite.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Teeth on January 15, 2012, 01:02:40 pm
Yeah I suggested that the ashwood needs a little nerf, at least make the costs higher. I dont really remember in which thread. But nobody seems to care :D
Oh they will care soon enough, the ashwood pike spreads like a virus, partly because I cant shut up about its OP ness. Really hope they just make it more expensive cause I really love using the thing even when its unloomed.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on January 15, 2012, 02:13:51 pm
uses a polearm and shield--resembles cav. needs nerf now
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: a_bear_irl on January 15, 2012, 02:52:16 pm
hoplite isn't fun because it's just one attack direction and no manual blocking, there's a reason nobody plays it for very long kreczor, just ask ylca. you're going to regret looming that pike
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Blueberry Muffin on January 15, 2012, 03:13:48 pm
I play hoplite for a long while and I find it perfectly viable. It isnt underpowered or underpowered, as anyone with a degree of understanding can utilise it to terrifying levels of efficiency, but not any idiot can just pick it up and pose a threat.. Pully is by far the best hoplite Ive ever seen, but I like to think I can be posed as a challlenge somewhat for any player. Ashwood pike isnt to my liking though, I would stick with a warspear. People think they do the most damage with an ashwood pike, they are however, wrong. Unless something drastically changed in the coding of polearms with spears, I recall that any polearm over 150 length used with a shield gets a 35% damage reduction, the same as a longsword/heavy bastard sword would get with a shield. Which means with the 166 length ashwood pike you get the reduction, but you dont with the 150 length warspear, giving you more damage overall.

If you want a long polearm to use with a shield, use a bamboo spear, its surprisingly effective.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Teeth on January 15, 2012, 03:27:46 pm
I play hoplite for a long while and I find it perfectly viable. It isnt underpowered or underpowered, as anyone with a degree of understanding can utilise it to terrifying levels of efficiency, but not any idiot can just pick it up and pose a threat.. Pully is by far the best hoplite Ive ever seen, but I like to think I can be posed as a challlenge somewhat for any player. Ashwood pike isnt to my liking though, I would stick with a warspear. People think they do the most damage with an ashwood pike, they are however, wrong. Unless something drastically changed in the coding of polearms with spears, I recall that any polearm over 150 length used with a shield gets a 35% damage reduction, the same as a longsword/heavy bastard sword would get with a shield. Which means with the 166 length ashwood pike you get the reduction, but you dont with the 150 length warspear, giving you more damage overall.

If you want a long polearm to use with a shield, use a bamboo spear, its surprisingly effective.
I knew it!

In that case, why not use the red tassel instead? 2 more speed for 1 less damage seems worth it.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: SoA_Sir_ODHarry on January 15, 2012, 03:31:43 pm
I play often as hoplite aswell sometimes i make much kills sometimes i not.
It depends at my team because i get my kills in the big melee bubbels
I played only wit warspear along time but an ashwoodpike let u be in savty distance and u can stab from the 2nd rank although its just very effective against  cav and i think when u play hoplite
as full support and less too make kills by ur own ashwood pike fits better.
bamboo is also good but not cheatabel...
1h/pole Hybrid FTW
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Blueberry Muffin on January 15, 2012, 03:46:05 pm
I knew it!

In that case, why not use the red tassel instead? 2 more speed for 1 less damage seems worth it.

Couple of reasons really. One of them being that the tassel spear looks like shit and the warspear looks like a boss. But the main reason is the difference in damage. 1 pierce doesnt seem much, but trust me it makes a difference. It will be multiplied up from 1 damage to 2-4 damage, depending on ps value and speed bonus, and while this is not much of a difference for a cut weapon, it makes a noticeable diffence with pierce. The same thing goes for the swing damage. You have to sling the shield across your back sometimes, and 3 blunt is going to make one hell of a diffence.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Glyph on January 15, 2012, 04:57:22 pm
Couple of reasons really. One of them being that the tassel spear looks like shit and the warspear looks like a boss. But the main reason is the difference in damage. 1 pierce doesnt seem much, but trust me it makes a difference. It will be multiplied up from 1 damage to 2-4 damage, depending on ps value and speed bonus, and while this is not much of a difference for a cut weapon, it makes a noticeable diffence with pierce. The same thing goes for the swing damage. You have to sling the shield across your back sometimes, and 3 blunt is going to make one hell of a diffence.
i don't see how that is so? why does 1 damage become 3-4?
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Gurnisson on January 15, 2012, 05:03:15 pm
i don't see how that is so? why does 1 damage become 3-4?

Multiplying from ps, wpf and speed bonus. The higher the base damage, the more you can get out of the aforementioned bonuses.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on January 15, 2012, 05:04:48 pm
Hoplite is a great teamplayer class. I am currently using an ashwood pike and the extra length makes all the difference, but I also understand that the war spear is very good as well. I believe hoplites are viable but only really in groups of players, just dont go rambo and if you get caught out in the open just hold that shield high and back pedal to your allies.

I suggest you just buy a whole range of spears and see which suits your playstyle best, ashwood pike is great but is awful when enemy can face hug you, shortened spear isnt amazing but its bloody fast. Just try everything :) Oh and maybe going hybrid with a 1h might be a good idea :D
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Spawny on January 15, 2012, 05:06:02 pm
I play hoplite for a long while and I find it perfectly viable. It isnt underpowered or underpowered, as anyone with a degree of understanding can utilise it to terrifying levels of efficiency, but not any idiot can just pick it up and pose a threat.. Pully is by far the best hoplite Ive ever seen, but I like to think I can be posed as a challlenge somewhat for any player. Ashwood pike isnt to my liking though, I would stick with a warspear. People think they do the most damage with an ashwood pike, they are however, wrong. Unless something drastically changed in the coding of polearms with spears, I recall that any polearm over 150 length used with a shield gets a 35% damage reduction, the same as a longsword/heavy bastard sword would get with a shield. Which means with the 166 length ashwood pike you get the reduction, but you dont with the 150 length warspear, giving you more damage overall.

If you want a long polearm to use with a shield, use a bamboo spear, its surprisingly effective.

Nope. The damage penalty applies to all polearms used with a shield, regardless of reach. It's been like that for a long time. As in, ever.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Gurnisson on January 15, 2012, 05:09:11 pm
Nope. The damage penalty applies to all polearms used with a shield, regardless of reach. It's been like that for a long time. As in, ever.

Originally I was told that all polearms had the penalty, but the ones over 150 reach got an even worse penalty.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Christo on January 15, 2012, 05:21:30 pm
hey that was me, and I killed you multiple times  :lol:

Let's be honest, it's pretty easy with that stun.

I had no chance to even activate a block.  :wink:
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: RamsesXXIIX on January 15, 2012, 05:32:13 pm
Originally I was told that all polearms had the penalty, but the ones over 150 reach got an even worse penalty.

I think its just another myth.

According to the Warband Manuel, using any polearms in one hand reduces damage by 35%.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Teeth on January 15, 2012, 09:12:42 pm
Let's be honest, it's pretty easy with that stun.

I had no chance to even activate a block.  :wink:
Can't recall the last time that I've seen you. I guess it was somewhere begin 2011 ish.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Christo on January 15, 2012, 09:17:11 pm
Can't recall the last time that I've seen you. I guess it was somewhere begin 2011 ish.

I played last night.

And before that, too.

Mostly I visit cRPG when there aren't many people on, the server gets a bit weird, I get strange deaths, and balance is a bit funky with huge numbers.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Joker86 on January 15, 2012, 09:39:11 pm
I think this is a nice moment to ask if I get some support from you guys if I ask for an "overhead" stab for all spear like weapons?

You know, the current stab is on the height of your chest, but how about another stab with exactly the same speed, range, etc. that's on the height of your head? You just swing your hand further away from your body in a great circle (counter-clockwise) and while doing so you push your spear forward. I hope you know what I mean...  :?

Just give hoplites and pikemen another attack, to make fighting them not so ridiculously easy as it is now. In difference to two handed spear fighting they already suffer from a speed penalty, and if their one handed stab gets blocked the enemy gets a free hit on them. Some kind of overhead stab (like in fire and sword) would really be nice and make this class more interesting.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Nagasoup on January 15, 2012, 09:46:33 pm
Ashwood pike is NOT op. They just need to revert the nerf on awlpike and allow that to be used with shields too, because that nerf made NO SENSE what so ever. I used to be hoplite with awlpike till they nerfed that and buffed ashwood.... and now I'm just a hoplite with ashwood...

Just allow them both to be used with shields. This kind of nerf where it changes the role of a weapon is just STUPID, because all it does is make dedicated hoplites have to sell their looms and start over...
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on January 15, 2012, 09:49:35 pm
Ash pike is a little op in my mind, but a reduction in speed should bring it on parr with everything else, maybe lose 2 speed and I think its fixed. If the awlpike was to get shield again then it would have to lose either speed or damage :/
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Nagasoup on January 15, 2012, 09:55:18 pm
Ash pike is a little op in my mind, but a reduction in speed should bring it on parr with everything else, maybe lose 2 speed
NO! YOU SHUT UP  :mad:! shoo

I had to change weapons once already due to nerf, not again plz!  :cry:  Just buff awlpike...
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on January 15, 2012, 09:58:16 pm
Sowwy :(
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Joker86 on January 15, 2012, 10:06:11 pm
I think too that none of the spear class weapons is OP, not even the pikes.

Yes, fighting against someone who is supported by a pikeman is a pain in the ass, but so is if the supporter has any other weapon, e.g. a poleaxe, a two handed sword or even 1hd+shield. I say a pikeman is not a better support than a two hander is, because latter is also capable of swings and thus he can attack in situation where the pike can't. And in addition to this the 2hd is the more versatile class in general.

Of course, there are very capable players with pikes and spears, but ask yourself if they would be less successfull with a two handed weapon or sword and shield. WIth the same amount of dedication and skill I would say: no. If anything, better.

You can also be sure that if you slightly buff hoplites/pikemen so that their numbers increase a little bit, people will get used to fighting them which will again make the life of a spearman more difficult. I guess a good amount of kills spearmen of any kind score is because players underestimate them and think they would be an easy target where you only need to downblock and then outspam them.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Dezilagel on January 15, 2012, 10:15:14 pm
Nah, that's what stupid people do.

Good people recognize the 0.1% of pikemen/hoplites who actually know how to play the class and refrain from spamming them.

But bad hoplites/pikemen are just begging to get spammed.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Teeth on January 15, 2012, 10:17:49 pm
Of course, there are very capable players with pikes and spears, but ask yourself if they would be less successfull with a two handed weapon or sword and shield. WIth the same amount of dedication and skill I would say: no. If anything, better.
I am better with an unloomed ashwood pike (without shield) than I was with a MW German Greatsword or a MW German Poleaxe.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Zerran on January 15, 2012, 10:18:04 pm
Pikemen, more than any other class, demand that their opponent recognize how skilled they are with it. Fighting a shitty pikeman is a completely different game from fighting a good one. Shitty ones, just spam them and they will die very rapidly. Good ones, play defensively or you won't last long.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Joker86 on January 15, 2012, 10:22:54 pm
I am better with an unloomed ashwood pike (without shield) than I was with a MW German Greatsword or a MW German Poleaxe.

Well, in your case I would guess it's because you started with greatsword, then poleaxe and ended up with pike, and during all this time you made "general" experience in fighting and especially blocking, all those things and aspects those weapons have in common, and that's why you are best with pike atm, because it's the weapon you use during the peak of your skills. If you would go back to one of the previous weapons, I bet you would be better than you were before, and most likely you will even score more kills than with pikes.

But of course, it's only an assumption  :?
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: SoA_Sir_ODHarry on January 15, 2012, 10:28:21 pm
leave Hoplites how they is !!!
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Nagasoup on January 15, 2012, 11:23:51 pm
FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU  :mad:
ashwood got nerfed just as I ask for no nerf. FML  :cry:
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Kreczor on January 15, 2012, 11:25:37 pm
FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU  :mad:
ashwood got nerfed just as I ask for no nerf. FML  :cry:

What nerf was just applied?
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Nagasoup on January 15, 2012, 11:26:36 pm
What nerf was just applied?

less damage and increased price
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Joker86 on January 15, 2012, 11:28:12 pm
1 point less damage, but more severe is an increase of item cost.  :cry:

Like the spear weapons would be a problem in this mod  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Kreczor on January 15, 2012, 11:29:48 pm
1 point less damage, but more severe is an increase of item cost.  :cry:

Like the spear weapons would be a problem in this mod  :rolleyes:
Ugh, I had no problem with the price of the weapon (Still don't) but a nerf? Really? As if hoplites need to be a smaller sized class?

Does this rank a different weapon as #1 for damage or does the ashwood still stand out?
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Nagasoup on January 15, 2012, 11:31:57 pm
Ugh, I had no problem with the price of the weapon (Still don't) but a nerf? Really? As if hoplites need to be a smaller sized class?

Does this rank a different weapon as #1 for damage or does the ashwood still stand out?

double sided lance has highest damage for hoplite i think
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Teeth on January 15, 2012, 11:36:39 pm
1 point less damage, but more severe is an increase of item cost.  :cry:

Like the spear weapons would be a problem in this mod  :rolleyes:
If picking an unloomed 4.6k weapon is a better choice than a MW 15k weapon for certain players it kinda was a problem. This nerf adressed it nicely, I will still use it though, don't give a shit about the price, and now it has less damage I'll just have to loom it.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Teeth on January 15, 2012, 11:50:53 pm
Me have MW and teeth not hehehehe :P
It's nerfed, its weak and expensive now. Trade it with me for the obviously superior German Poleaxe!
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Joker86 on January 15, 2012, 11:51:09 pm
If picking an unloomed 4.6k weapon is a better choice than a MW 15k weapon for certain players it kinda was a problem. This nerf adressed it nicely, I will still use it though, don't give a shit about the price, and now it has less damage I'll just have to loom it.

Which scenario are you describing there?

Because usually players pick different weapon classes because of personal preferences, and not because of the cost-benefit-ratio. I don't know which 15k MW weapon you are talking about, but it must be one of those 2hd sword/halberd - weapons. And I don't think many people will say "Hey! I will go hoplite instead of 2hd, because ashwood pike is so cheap!". I think money is a really low motivation factor.

We saw this concerning bows. Let's be honest, in almost every last patch archers got nerfed down more and more, and still we have too many of them. (Let's see what the missing ladders change). It's because apparently most archers simply wanted to play an archer in this game, and that's what they do regardless to any nerf or other penalty.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Canary on January 16, 2012, 12:28:14 am
Unless something drastically changed in the coding of polearms with spears, I recall that any polearm over 150 length used with a shield gets a 35% damage reduction, the same as a longsword/heavy bastard sword would get with a shield. Which means with the 166 length ashwood pike you get the reduction, but you dont with the 150 length warspear, giving you more damage overall.

Originally I was told that all polearms had the penalty, but the ones over 150 reach got an even worse penalty.

I've been told the ashwood pike gets additional penalty with a shield because of its above a certain number length. The penalty it gets in speed is like 35% instead of 15% for somewhat shorter spears, these numbers might not be perfectly accurate.

No.

Nope. The damage penalty applies to all polearms used with a shield, regardless of reach. It's been like that for a long time. As in, ever.

Yes.

Every polearm gets a 30% damage reduction when used with a shield or on horseback (or both, they don't stack), and a comparable speed penalty which is based on the item's speed but is harder to determine the exact percentage.

The tag for "penalty with shield" does not and has never actually done a single thing, though you used to find it appearing on most every polearm above this magical 150 length, including several that could not be used with a shield!

double sided lance has highest damage for hoplite i think

Currently the battle fork with its base 32pierce is the highest damage hoplite weapon. The lower reach, however, makes it less attractive than the ashwood pike, which in my experience has (or had) the perfect ratio of speed to length to damage to give it a wide "kill-zone" where you'd nearly never glance without trying too hard to spin the weapon.

Anyway, as for you, Kreczor, you seem to be picking up the style pretty well. You're decent when fighting with your teammates and seem to know when a good time to remove your shield is. The playstyle is mostly about your staying power in group fighting, the shield enables you to do things a pikeman wouldn't, but you can still assist teammates by hitting the guys attacking them and pressuring people a good distance from you. Your minimum range also requires (slightly) less finagling to land hits from it than a pike, making it slightly more versatile, if not as deadly, as something like a longspear. The fact that you can put away your shield just adds to that versatility. The way I look at being a hoplite is being able to extend the reach of another weapon, or being a spearman capable of blocking multiple directions at once, rather than playing as a shielder who's got a long one-direction attack. I guess that's why I only have 2 shield skill, but there you go.



Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Gurnisson on January 16, 2012, 12:56:47 am
nevah! I have mighty poleaxe too, its much cooler!

I had both Mighty Poleaxe and Masterwork Ashwood Pike. I sold both, and one of them twice. :lol:
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Darkoveride on January 16, 2012, 03:01:13 am
only thing hoplites need is a second attack, Overhead strike or shield bash 8-)

Also Join the rest of us awesome hoplites and spartans.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Kreczor on January 16, 2012, 03:42:40 am
Anyway, as for you, Kreczor, you seem to be picking up the style pretty well. You're decent when fighting with your teammates and seem to know when a good time to remove your shield is. The playstyle is mostly about your staying power in group fighting, the shield enables you to do things a pikeman wouldn't, but you can still assist teammates by hitting the guys attacking them and pressuring people a good distance from you. Your minimum range also requires (slightly) less finagling to land hits from it than a pike, making it slightly more versatile, if not as deadly, as something like a longspear. The fact that you can put away your shield just adds to that versatility. The way I look at being a hoplite is being able to extend the reach of another weapon, or being a spearman capable of blocking multiple directions at once, rather than playing as a shielder who's got a long one-direction attack. I guess that's why I only have 2 shield skill, but there you go.
Thanks for the uplifting compliments :)

As for the ashwood nerf: I won't be bothered too much by it. The only way it will affect me is when I'm crafting them in strat. As that is unlikely for quite some time, I won't be worrying about it for quite some time. The damage is going to be the rough part, guess I'll be (maybe) seeing some of you in the duel server now...
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Rhaelys on January 16, 2012, 05:08:16 am
Kreczor, I would recommend altering your build to the following:

(click to show/hide)

As compared with what you are currently running:

(click to show/hide)

With the first build, you gain an extra rank of Power Strike, which will make you deal more damage, and will also offset the damage nerf introduced with the 0.260 patch. You would be sacrificing 3 health and 5 polearm proficiency. The health loss comes out to 4.2% less than what you would have with the second build, while the 5 polearm proficiency loss will be, for all intents and purposes, unnoticeable. Extra proficiency will not really help you as a hoplite, either; your role is to know when you can safely attack and support your teammates, and when you should focus on distracting opposing players with your shield. A few points of polearm proficiency will not help you in that regard.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: ShinySpoons on January 16, 2012, 06:52:38 am
In addition to what Rhaelys said regarding wpf: You really only need the minumum. If you do end up getting WM, I highly suggest putting it in one hand prof. Makes you much more effective in 1on1's or tight spaces where polearm sideswings will hill the wall.

And on the off chance you DO get bored with being a hoplite you're not really gimped as a sword and board.

On the matter of why awlpike was given a "not usable with shield" tag, it was due to realism purposes. Awlpikes just weren't used with shields.

Ashwood pike was nerfed because it was basically an awlpike but...better. Like, just straight up better. Now it has slightly less dmg but with more range and can be used with shield. As a nerf, makes sense.

In terms of battle effectiveness, I've found that as a hoplite/piker, you make good players die. When a good player is ganged by 2-4 guys with twohanders/onehanders/polearms they can hold them off and frequently win. But with a Hoplite/pikeman's range you either force them to disengage or they die. Stabs are easy to block but its the range and being able to stab through teamates that makes them such a great support class.

Oh, and yeah, learn how to stab through teamates if you don't know already. Sometimes you mess up but its worth it.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: San on January 16, 2012, 07:12:53 am
I would be happy if ashwood was sheathable, then I would use it, however selfish a request this is.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Teeth on January 16, 2012, 10:34:43 am
Which scenario are you describing there?

Because usually players pick different weapon classes because of personal preferences, and not because of the cost-benefit-ratio. I don't know which 15k MW weapon you are talking about, but it must be one of those 2hd sword/halberd - weapons. And I don't think many people will say "Hey! I will go hoplite instead of 2hd, because ashwood pike is so cheap!". I think money is a really low motivation factor.

We saw this concerning bows. Let's be honest, in almost every last patch archers got nerfed down more and more, and still we have too many of them. (Let's see what the missing ladders change). It's because apparently most archers simply wanted to play an archer in this game, and that's what they do regardless to any nerf or other penalty.
What a lot of people are forgetting im this thread and in general, is that you can also use an ashwood pike without a shield, which makes it awesome! I'm describing the scenario of me having a MW German Poleaxe, but I'm using an unloomed Ashwood pike cause I do better with it. Spear weapons are very effective. Yes, money is a really low motivation factor, thats why this nerf was very minor and well deserved. 3 less damage than the awlpike but 2 more speed is still a great trade off that is worth it imo.

166 length with 93 speed is just very good, especially combined with the ultra fast stab animation of polearms.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Canary on January 16, 2012, 10:37:26 am
Ashwood pike was nerfed because it was basically an awlpike but...better. Like, just straight up better. Now it has slightly less dmg but with more range and can be used with shield. As a nerf, makes sense.

Actually, before they were changed, the ashwood pike was entirely worse than the awlpike. 2 less damage, 2 less speed, couldn't be sheathed, couldn't be used with a shield, and was much heavier. All it had over the awlpike before was 1 length and 1 overhead blunt damage. They buffed it at the same time as they changed it to be useable with shield and took that away from the awlpike. Increased the speed by 3 if I recall. Also, they changed the model. I miss the "fatty pike" it used to be.

Something less concrete that the awlpike has going for it is the deceptive model. The tip is so thin and small that it can be virtually undetectable when moving. This used to cause a lot of people to complain about its length or "ghost reach" and speed and all kinds of things, but it's really just that it looks sneaky.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: ShinySpoons on January 16, 2012, 12:00:30 pm
I hated that thing, villages would always but it as the polearm choice and we'd be stuck with the worse iteration of a pike in the game. I much rather like the newer model as well, though thats probably my inner hoplite speaking.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Kreczor on January 16, 2012, 02:14:28 pm
Kreczor, I would recommend altering your build to the following:

(click to show/hide)

As compared with what you are currently running:

(click to show/hide)

With the first build, you gain an extra rank of Power Strike, which will make you deal more damage, and will also offset the damage nerf introduced with the 0.260 patch. You would be sacrificing 3 health and 5 polearm proficiency. The health loss comes out to 4.2% less than what you would have with the second build, while the 5 polearm proficiency loss will be, for all intents and purposes, unnoticeable. Extra proficiency will not really help you as a hoplite, either; your role is to know when you can safely attack and support your teammates, and when you should focus on distracting opposing players with your shield. A few points of polearm proficiency will not help you in that regard.

Is that build not for a 31? I'm merely hitting 31 and retiring asap. I'm not arguing on the fact that I would have liked to go 24/15 but I can't seem to get enough attribute points to make that possible. I think I'm merely a bit silly in the head but it seems impossible for my intentions of the game at this time.

As for the removal of the awlpike: I was about to loom it when the changes came out so I think I lucked out. I think I'm overall happy with the changes, mainly due to the models  8-)
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Zerran on January 16, 2012, 02:25:37 pm
No if I'm looking at it right, that's a build for lvl 30. He cut off 2 of your IF and 1 WM to get you that last strength and powerstrike. Weaponmaster and Ironflesh should be low priority skills, at least compared to powerstrike. They're nice to have, but sacrificing 3 hp and a fraction of a percentage point of speed for 8% on top of your powerstrike multiplier is definitely worth it, especially with the hefty reduction to your damage you get from using your weapon in 1 hand.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Kreczor on January 16, 2012, 03:55:11 pm
No if I'm looking at it right, that's a build for lvl 30. He cut off 2 of your IF and 1 WM to get you that last strength and powerstrike. Weaponmaster and Ironflesh should be low priority skills, at least compared to powerstrike. They're nice to have, but sacrificing 3 hp and a fraction of a percentage point of speed for 8% on top of your powerstrike multiplier is definitely worth it, especially with the hefty reduction to your damage you get from using your weapon in 1 hand.

I get it, those two points he converts into an attribute point (strength) then the point from WM goes into PS I'm not exactly thrilled about losing more HP but it is Rhaelys, he should know what he's talking about.
Title: Re: The State of Hoplites
Post by: Trikipum on January 18, 2012, 04:03:17 am
Real hoplites use also a sword. This is my hoplite build at level 30:

Strength    27    
Agility    12    

One Handed    105    
Polearm    104    

Iron Flesh    2    
Power Strike    9
Shield    4    
Athletics    4    
Weapon Master    4