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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Dravic on February 17, 2011, 05:25:50 pm

Title: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Dravic on February 17, 2011, 05:25:50 pm
Welcome,

Here i come with some suggestions about xbows fixing.

First:

Buff hunting and light xbows +4 to basic shot speed. Every next xbow (above these two) until sniper one buff + 2 to shot speed. Sniper xbow buff should be +1 to shot speed.

Example of what is now:

Nomad bow:
weight 1.25
requirement 3
spd rtng 66
shoot speed 46
thrust damage 20 cut
accuracy 94
Gen1= 66spd 47shspd 21cut 94acc
Gen2= 67spd 48shspd 22cut 95acc
Gen3= 68spd 49shspd 23cut 96acc

Light xbow:

weight 2.5
requirement 7
spd rtng 34
shoot speed 46
thrust damage 45 pierce
max ammo 1
accuracy 89
Gen1= 35spd 47shspd 48pierce 90acc
Gen2= 36spd 49shspd 50pierce 91acc
Gen3= 37spd 50shspd 52pierce 92acc

I think bolded shot speeds are jokes. Bolts should fly faster than arrows. Even a bit faster...

Second:

Make that so every point above 150 wpf in xbows still gives actual advantage. For now, one person did some tests and it shows, that there is no point in putting in xbows more than 150 wpf. I would like to put 180 in xbows, but it doesnt matter - i say: give us more accuracy if we are going to put wpfs above 150 points.

Thats all for now.

Discuss.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: EponiCo on February 17, 2011, 06:04:01 pm
Why do bolts have to fly faster than arrows?
I see many crossbowmen (including mounted ones) who are doing fine, more than (horse) archers actually.

Also keep in mind that the archer will have to spend extra skillpoints on strength and PD. A PD 5 strongbow horsearcher will still do less damage than the light crossbow and that already makes it hard to get to 4 horse archery without gimping your character otherwise. The horse crossbowman can easily stop at str 12 and call it a day - skills go in PS, athletics, etc. instead.

The wpf suggestion is good, but I think there are some hard limits how accurate weapons can be (which cannot be overcome without introducing potentially exploitable mechanics like archery formula before the patch).

edit: From a realism standpoint. Let's recap that projectile speed = squareroot(2*draw strength*draw length/projectile mass)  (*efficiency factor).
Now, since bows and light crossbows are drawn the same way essentially, the draw strength of the crossbowman can't be higher than that of a bowman who regularily trains (skillpoints), but the length is shorter, so realistically a hand drawn crossbow would always be weaker (either less damage or less speed) than a hand drawn bow. Only crossbows with special loading mechanisms could be more powerful than bows.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Gorath on February 17, 2011, 06:33:06 pm
Realism should be left to the wayside Eponi.

I agree with increased projectile speed for x-bows.  They are sniper weapons given their long reload time (ages).  Since we don't want to increase the damage or reload rate of x-bows, which let's face it are the red-headed stepchild of ranged weaponry atm beneath their throwing overlords, increasing projectile speed is the best way to give them a slight boost.  Since you only get one shot most times and cannot just spam a hail of projectiles into the air around someone's general direction you want that bolt to fly straight, true and fast.  I'm sure everyone can attest that with current bolt speeds it's almost like watching it come at you in bullet-time, giving you ample time to bullet-dodge out of the way as if you're Neo.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: EponiCo on February 17, 2011, 06:43:18 pm
Yeah, I just added the thing in case he was coming from realism.
Anyway my point was that the light crossbow shouldn't have a faster arrow speed than bows for the balance reasons I added. If both crossbows and bows are increased, or only the sniper that might be a different matter.  Bows cower in fear of the throwing overlords, too. ^^
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Gorath on February 17, 2011, 07:29:12 pm
Anyway my point was that the light crossbow shouldn't have a faster arrow speed than bows for the balance reasons I added. If both crossbows and bows are increased, or only the sniper that might be a different matter.  Bows cower in fear of the throwing overlords, too. ^^

Personally I think only the x-bow, heavy x-bow and sniper x-bow's should get the projectile speed increase as that's where you start getting into the redonkulous reload speeds.  Perhaps even just the heavy and sniper.  However the heavier xbows, while the model doesn't show it, seem to reload as if they are actually winch drawn x-bows rather than hand-drawn (you can draw a hand drawn x-bow amazingly fast compared to in-game).
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Rumblood on February 17, 2011, 07:40:03 pm
I see no reason why xbow's should receive any buff at all. Certainly I don't see why a 1-shot kill should be sped up to where it can't be dodged by an aware opponent over range.

If xbows are the red-headed stepchild to throwing, then NERF throwing. Xbows need 0 buff in any way. That slow draw speed and flight speed BALANCE that huge PIERCE damage type that 1-shots most people on the battlefield.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Dravic on February 17, 2011, 07:44:25 pm
Wake up, there was dmg nerf for xbows. We live in postpatch time, not prepatch!
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Rumblood on February 17, 2011, 07:52:55 pm
Wake up, there was dmg nerf for xbows. We live in postpatch time, not prepatch!

There was a much larger nerf to archery. Welcome to postpatch! You're just lucky that your damage type doesn't get changed to cut on top of it!
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Dravic on February 17, 2011, 08:07:19 pm
Im scared, that chadz gonna see what you posted and then will do it. And post an evil post in this topic such like:


Quote from: chadz
:twisted:
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Rumblood on February 17, 2011, 08:40:31 pm
Im scared, that chadz gonna see what you posted and then will do it. And post an evil post in this topic such like:

Noooo! Im happy with the balance! If he did that, I would be clamoring for buff along with you  :wink:
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Lestos on February 17, 2011, 08:58:33 pm
erm since when do x-bows one shot since the patch? besides the low level gen one guys which even then thats just luck..... ive got 3 different x-bows the light the heavy and the normal x-bow. so far the only use ive found for the light x-bow is to bring 30 steel bolts and fire above peoples head at medium range hoping for a head shot which then yes there is ure 1 shot kill most of the time. heavy is 2 damn slow to be of practical use unless i want to camp and fire across the map. the only practical x-bow for a decent battle is the normal x-bow. which even then 2-3 shots are required for most guys in light medium armour. 6 shots or more on plate which woohoo there goes half my bolts just for one guy if they all hit and assuming he dosnt have a shield. not saying i dont like the x-bow but if reload speed and damage arent going to be buffed, which thats fine i do like where they are it would be nice to have a shot speed boost even if its small
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Trael on February 17, 2011, 09:01:45 pm
I see no reason why xbow's should receive any buff at all. Certainly I don't see why a 1-shot kill should be sped up to where it can't be dodged by an aware opponent over range.

If xbows are the red-headed stepchild to throwing, then NERF throwing. Xbows need 0 buff in any way. That slow draw speed and flight speed BALANCE that huge PIERCE damage type that 1-shots most people on the battlefield.

Sniper + steel rarely oneshot anyone wearing any clothing in crpg these days, even nonclothet enemies are no longer sure kills...

see "Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?"
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,1357.0.html

also fact that sniper crossbow is least accurate of crossbows.
and also fact that wpf over 135 or so seems to mostly effect just reloads, instead of reload and accuracy, based on charts seen.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Xant on February 17, 2011, 09:14:14 pm
Crossbow is fine and if you are good you can do very well with it.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Spawny on February 17, 2011, 09:23:42 pm
I've seen some pretty annoying (nasty) guys with light crossbows on horsies.

They're anti cav and they hurt a lot when they charge at someone and fire that bolt close range. Speedbonus makes the bolt deadly.

It would still take multiple bolts to kill people, but if you take out the horses on 3 enemy cavs, you saved the lives of at least 3 teammates.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Dravic on February 17, 2011, 09:41:54 pm
I've seen some pretty annoying (nasty) guys with light crossbows on horsies.

They're anti cav and they hurt a lot when they charge at someone and fire that bolt close range. Speedbonus makes the bolt deadly.

It would still take multiple bolts to kill people, but if you take out the horses on 3 enemy cavs, you saved the lives of at least 3 teammates.


Do you want to know why we are coming so close? Because at bigger range our bolts arent 100% accurate due to... low shot speed. Our bolts fly slower than most of horses.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Torp on February 17, 2011, 11:06:24 pm
i think something should be done, so wpf from 150+ in xbows gives a big(ger) advantage, as crosbows are good for hybrids now, but dedicated x-bowers suck.
so maybe say, that each point from 151+ gives the same advantage as 2 points below? dunno what, just make dedicated x-bowers more usefull
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: bruce on February 18, 2011, 12:26:12 am
dedicated x-bowers suck.

It's the game telling you not to be a my old friend and grab a melee weapon as well instead of running for two miles to reload.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Siiem on February 18, 2011, 12:54:39 am
You can still do good with 1 in crossbow wpf. If anything there should be a bigger hit on people with 1 xbow wpf and a much bigger boost to dedicated or hybrid xbowers.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Trael on February 18, 2011, 01:27:35 am
You can still do good with 1 in crossbow wpf. If anything there should be a bigger hit on people with 1 xbow wpf and a much bigger boost to dedicated or hybrid xbowers.

agreed. most of "issues with crossbows" are 'they are used as sidearm, we must fix it somehow' and almost all changes have just made them more and more sidearm weapon they were trying to avoid.

as result we have gotten damage nerfs and so, stuff that ends up 'hurting' dedicated players more that sidearmers. would there be some reason why we would not just get crossbows with largely longer base reload speed and lower accuracy and _MUCH_ more effecient crossbow proficiency.

currently reports show that wpf for crossbows is practicly capped around 135 in terms of accuracy.
sniper crossbow being _possibly_ only one to even be able to gain accuracy benefit from higher wpf (and that being basicly only becouse its _LEAST ACCURATE_ of all crossbows... thanks accuracy inversed to damage... thing that archers wont get, becouse most of their damage comes from power draw.)
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: bruce on February 18, 2011, 02:12:04 am
currently reports show that wpf for crossbows is practicly capped around 135 in terms of accuracy.

No, it doesn't.

The cap is about 135-140 for the regular, a bit above 150 for the heavy and I don't know what for the sniper.

And it really does matter if you're able to put the bolt on target or not, and wpf enables you to be very accurate. The damage is not so huge anymore, but with the new acc and less armour overall it would be totally and completely overpowered if it was.

As a sidearm the crossbow is very unimpressive compared to, eg. throwing. Reloading is a pain. So you're paying a lot of gold and consuming a lot of upkeep for a weapon which you will fire maybe once or twice per round and score 0.1 kills with it on average. Doesn't make sense, or makes sense only on camping fortress maps.


The damage of heirloomed crossbows is in general quite satisfying, I have a 2x heirloomed heavy and it is quite good.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Gorath on February 18, 2011, 02:59:28 am
So you're paying a lot of gold and consuming a lot of upkeep for a weapon which you will fire maybe once or twice per round and score 0.1 kills with it on average. Doesn't make sense, or makes sense only on camping fortress maps.

Looking at x-bows without any thought of a mechanic buff or nerf, this is my single biggest issue with x-bows.  The upkeep is redonkulous given that during an AVERAGE round you may shoot it twice unless you're camping some nigh unreachable roof, in which case everyone votekicks you anyways rendering that strategy moot half the time.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: bruce on February 18, 2011, 03:15:06 am
Looking at x-bows without any thought of a mechanic buff or nerf, this is my single biggest issue with x-bows.  The upkeep is redonkulous given that during an AVERAGE round you may shoot it twice unless you're camping some nigh unreachable roof, in which case everyone votekicks you anyways rendering that strategy moot half the time.

Well... while I don't know what sorts of maps you play on NA servers, on EU servers on some maps playing as a crossbowman ( I was a crossbow/polearm hybrid last gen with more crossbow wpf of course) makes sense and nets you kills - but to score 3-4 kills in a round with a crossbow you'll need a good position, wpf (since you will be firing from range and even if you didn't you want the reload speed) and a bit of luck. However, on many maps it's more efficient to just melee, even if your char is crossbow oriented (but on the other hand a crossbow oriented char isn't gimped in melee, so it's not a problem).

Of course the crossbow pays off when you shoot some really good lancer's horse or assassinate some hero melee fighter, since that sort of thing wins rounds.

But my point is, unless you're going to play as a crossbowman, meaning spend most of the round firing the crossbow rather then charging around like a normal infantryman, it just doesn't make sense really to carry one. Consumes a lot of upkeep, weighs you down, and if you aren't playing as a crossbowman you'll be able to fire it once or twice. You're better off with throwing as a sidearm, or hell, even a bow, because these things can be fired on the move (bow not so much as throwing, but eg strongbow you can stop for a moment, fire, and resume moving, something impossible to do with a crossbow).

Overall, I think crossbows are fine, and the only thing I'd do is to make it rain less often.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Xant on February 18, 2011, 01:44:16 pm
For "How to play a crossbowman" look at DaveUKR.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Freland on February 18, 2011, 01:54:57 pm
Overall, I think crossbows are fine, and the only thing I'd do is to make it rain less often.
This is the one thing that needs to be changed as xbow is the only weapon to suffer a penalty from rain afaik.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Fasader on February 18, 2011, 05:35:22 pm

Second:

Make that so every point above 150 wpf in xbows still gives actual advantage. For now, one person did some tests and it shows, that there is no point in putting in xbows more than 150 wpf. I would like to put 180 in xbows, but it doesnt matter - i say: give us more accuracy if we are going to put wpfs above 150 points.

Discuss.

Unfortunately, the accuracy stat limits the minimum reticle size. Thus making wpf above a certain number, that varies from one crossbow to another, not give any extra accuracy, just increasing the reload speed and nothing else.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Dravic on February 18, 2011, 07:27:18 pm
just increasing the reload speed

Just? You just told me, that it is REALLY worth of putting more than 150~~ wpfs in xbows because reload speed REALLY makes difference!
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Gorath on February 18, 2011, 08:13:27 pm
Well... while I don't know what sorts of maps you play on NA servers, on EU servers on some maps playing as a crossbowman ( I was a crossbow/polearm hybrid last gen with more crossbow wpf of course) makes sense and nets you kills - but to score 3-4 kills in a round with a crossbow you'll need a good position, wpf (since you will be firing from range and even if you didn't you want the reload speed) and a bit of luck. However, on many maps it's more efficient to just melee, even if your char is crossbow oriented (but on the other hand a crossbow oriented char isn't gimped in melee, so it's not a problem).

Of course the crossbow pays off when you shoot some really good lancer's horse or assassinate some hero melee fighter, since that sort of thing wins rounds.

But my point is, unless you're going to play as a crossbowman, meaning spend most of the round firing the crossbow rather then charging around like a normal infantryman, it just doesn't make sense really to carry one. Consumes a lot of upkeep, weighs you down, and if you aren't playing as a crossbowman you'll be able to fire it once or twice. You're better off with throwing as a sidearm, or hell, even a bow, because these things can be fired on the move (bow not so much as throwing, but eg strongbow you can stop for a moment, fire, and resume moving, something impossible to do with a crossbow).

Overall, I think crossbows are fine, and the only thing I'd do is to make it rain less often.

Overall I think they're fine as well, which is why I said if anything were to be changed I would just go with a slight buff to projectile speed.  Whether that happens or not doesn't affect my decision to play an x-bowman.

Currently I play a 2her/xbow, polearm/xbow, 1h/shield + xbow and then a bunch of other random alts that I haven't been having much fun on (except maybe my crush through exploiter, though he gets boring really quickly).
All of them with 130 in their melee wpf, and 120 in xbow.  All of them use the heavy x-bow (occasionally dropping to a regular x-bow if I get unlucky with a bunch of total breaks in a row IE: every item breaks, even on a winning round, ouch).  In fact before I would even touch projectile speed I think I'd lower the upkeep on x-bows a smidge.  Not a ton, but a little bit since my heavy x-bow breaking is the same upkeep as my polearm/2her + gloves and armor combined in terms of cost.  And as I think you and most players would attest, the armor+gloves+weapon gets alot more kills more efficiently than the x-bow does except for on certain maps where we can camp in an elevated position for the majority of the round.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Wulzzz on February 18, 2011, 09:41:45 pm
I guess you mainly care about HorseCrossbowman.

No, they don't need any buff.
Their build already has a pretty nice advantage over HA.
Only needing 7 str and NO extra Crossbow skill while doing + - same damage per time.
That almost deserves a nerf instead of buff  :oops:
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Gorath on February 18, 2011, 10:12:56 pm
I guess you mainly care about HorseCrossbowman.

What?
Who's even mentioned those people?  I don't think anyone cares about horse xbowmen.  They're like HA's with downs.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Mouse on February 18, 2011, 10:34:33 pm
What?
Who's even mentioned those people?  I don't think anyone cares about horse xbowmen.  They're like HA's with downs.

Triple sniper xbow, steel bolts, full black armor, plated charger. Best build ever.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Wulzzz on February 18, 2011, 10:41:42 pm
What?
Who's even mentioned those people?  I don't think anyone cares about horse xbowmen.  They're like HA's with downs.

He is a HorseCrossbowman and it looks like he in the first place wants a buff for the lightxbow which is the HorseCrossbowman weapon.
And i guess some care about them since more and more HorseCrossbowmen appear.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Gorath on February 18, 2011, 10:47:03 pm
Triple sniper xbow, steel bolts, full black armor, plated charger. Best build ever.

lulz
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Dravic on February 18, 2011, 10:49:35 pm
Thanks to me, Rache and few others, who were The First Horse Crossbowmen/women ;)


EDIT

Also, take a look. I am not the best HC ever, but, well... see it yourself.

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Wulzzz on February 18, 2011, 11:05:26 pm
And then you still want a buff for the lightxbow?
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: bruce on February 18, 2011, 11:12:52 pm
Thanks to me, Rache and few others, who were The First Horse Crossbowmen/women ;)

Keep dreaming.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Gnjus on February 19, 2011, 11:34:05 pm
i think something should be done, so wpf from 150+ in xbows gives a big(ger) advantage, as crosbows are good for hybrids now, but dedicated x-bowers suck.

False. Nothing wrong with crossbows, people should stop whining and learn to play.


You can still do good with 1 in crossbow wpf. If anything there should be a bigger hit on people with 1 xbow wpf and a much bigger boost to dedicated or hybrid xbowers.

Partially true. You can hit and kill things on shorter range but on long range you cant do shit. The definition of "doing good" depends on what you expect from crossbow. I expect to be able to snipe down those roof camping my old friendgchers from long range and 1 wpf is definitely not enough for it. Not even 100 is enough.


For "How to play a crossbowman" look at DaveUKR.

Yep, he's quite good but he whines too much. If it was him crossbows would be made like medieval Dragunov sniper rifles.


What?
Who's even mentioned those people?  I don't think anyone cares about horse xbowmen.  They're like HA's with downs.

Again people from EU arguing with people from NA, and the other way around. I recon you american folks dont have so many mounted crossbowmen running around useless as we do so.....


Thanks to me, Rache and few others, who were The First Horse Crossbowmen/women ;)

False. Bruce was testing that build before you chickens even laid out from your eggs. Actually, it was before your hen mother had sex with the rooster.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Dravic on February 19, 2011, 11:47:48 pm
But when he was testing, it wasnt too popular, and when i started to play, i realised that it gets more and more popular. Also, 14 years ago there wasnt any MnB game.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: bruce on February 20, 2011, 12:11:39 am
Also, take a look. I am not the best HC ever, but, well... see it yourself.

Worthless runners with 7/30 builds, here's how you do it:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Get powerstrike, use a sword, help infantry once they're properly in melee.

It's getting more popular now because they're more accurate and friendlier to use for noobs, and also heirloomed versions don't take more str like they used to. Back in the good old days, a masterwork light crossbow could onehit-kill a lancer in the body, if fired at 3 metres. Of course, if you missed you'd be dead. And you were hunted by horse archers with superaccurate armour piercing autocannons.


Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Xant on February 20, 2011, 12:11:54 am
Dravic, screenshots of scores like 8-3 and 8-6 don't prove much (if anything.) It's possible to get such scores with every build, no matter how gimped.

And Gnjus, whine he may, but I was referring to him being able to shoot very accurately to long distances even against moving targets - which shows crossbows are fine, since people can consistently hit and kill with them. In fact, I'd rather be shot by bows than crossbows, if the crossbowmen know what they're doing.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Nemeth on February 20, 2011, 04:16:02 am
Its not really hard to make long range shots with sniper xbow, hell I bet you even saw me (well, maybe you didnt) regulary shooting people over long distance, because they never expect it. And I am no good xbower. I find it harder to shoot at medium to close range, since that is when people think theyre in effective range and start moving unpredictably. But yes, Dave is a great xbower, best Ive ever seen and I wouldnt wanna play against him if xbows were buffed.
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Gnjus on February 20, 2011, 09:38:26 am
which shows crossbows are fine

That is exactly what i said. Dave, on the other hand, thinks they are not. He'd like to have them even more accurate and with more damage. :wink:
Title: Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
Post by: Zekerage on February 21, 2011, 01:46:16 am
While I wouldn't moan at an increase in projectile speed for crossbows, I honestly think they're fine. I'm a 15/24 polearm guy who runs around with a Sniper xbow with 50 wpf. It might be different for me because with 8 athletics, I can relocate extremely easily, but I've gotten 6 or 7 kills in a round with the Sniper xbow. My only real real beef with the higher damaging ones are their reload speeds, but hey... That's the tradeoff for more damage.