Author Topic: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]  (Read 3710 times)

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Offline Torp

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Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2011, 11:06:24 pm »
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i think something should be done, so wpf from 150+ in xbows gives a big(ger) advantage, as crosbows are good for hybrids now, but dedicated x-bowers suck.
so maybe say, that each point from 151+ gives the same advantage as 2 points below? dunno what, just make dedicated x-bowers more usefull

Offline bruce

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Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2011, 12:26:12 am »
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dedicated x-bowers suck.

It's the game telling you not to be a my old friend and grab a melee weapon as well instead of running for two miles to reload.
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Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2011, 12:54:39 am »
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You can still do good with 1 in crossbow wpf. If anything there should be a bigger hit on people with 1 xbow wpf and a much bigger boost to dedicated or hybrid xbowers.

Offline Trael

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Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2011, 01:27:35 am »
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You can still do good with 1 in crossbow wpf. If anything there should be a bigger hit on people with 1 xbow wpf and a much bigger boost to dedicated or hybrid xbowers.

agreed. most of "issues with crossbows" are 'they are used as sidearm, we must fix it somehow' and almost all changes have just made them more and more sidearm weapon they were trying to avoid.

as result we have gotten damage nerfs and so, stuff that ends up 'hurting' dedicated players more that sidearmers. would there be some reason why we would not just get crossbows with largely longer base reload speed and lower accuracy and _MUCH_ more effecient crossbow proficiency.

currently reports show that wpf for crossbows is practicly capped around 135 in terms of accuracy.
sniper crossbow being _possibly_ only one to even be able to gain accuracy benefit from higher wpf (and that being basicly only becouse its _LEAST ACCURATE_ of all crossbows... thanks accuracy inversed to damage... thing that archers wont get, becouse most of their damage comes from power draw.)

Offline bruce

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Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2011, 02:12:04 am »
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currently reports show that wpf for crossbows is practicly capped around 135 in terms of accuracy.

No, it doesn't.

The cap is about 135-140 for the regular, a bit above 150 for the heavy and I don't know what for the sniper.

And it really does matter if you're able to put the bolt on target or not, and wpf enables you to be very accurate. The damage is not so huge anymore, but with the new acc and less armour overall it would be totally and completely overpowered if it was.

As a sidearm the crossbow is very unimpressive compared to, eg. throwing. Reloading is a pain. So you're paying a lot of gold and consuming a lot of upkeep for a weapon which you will fire maybe once or twice per round and score 0.1 kills with it on average. Doesn't make sense, or makes sense only on camping fortress maps.


The damage of heirloomed crossbows is in general quite satisfying, I have a 2x heirloomed heavy and it is quite good.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 02:17:45 am by bruce »
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Offline Gorath

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Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2011, 02:59:28 am »
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So you're paying a lot of gold and consuming a lot of upkeep for a weapon which you will fire maybe once or twice per round and score 0.1 kills with it on average. Doesn't make sense, or makes sense only on camping fortress maps.

Looking at x-bows without any thought of a mechanic buff or nerf, this is my single biggest issue with x-bows.  The upkeep is redonkulous given that during an AVERAGE round you may shoot it twice unless you're camping some nigh unreachable roof, in which case everyone votekicks you anyways rendering that strategy moot half the time.
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Offline bruce

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Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2011, 03:15:06 am »
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Looking at x-bows without any thought of a mechanic buff or nerf, this is my single biggest issue with x-bows.  The upkeep is redonkulous given that during an AVERAGE round you may shoot it twice unless you're camping some nigh unreachable roof, in which case everyone votekicks you anyways rendering that strategy moot half the time.

Well... while I don't know what sorts of maps you play on NA servers, on EU servers on some maps playing as a crossbowman ( I was a crossbow/polearm hybrid last gen with more crossbow wpf of course) makes sense and nets you kills - but to score 3-4 kills in a round with a crossbow you'll need a good position, wpf (since you will be firing from range and even if you didn't you want the reload speed) and a bit of luck. However, on many maps it's more efficient to just melee, even if your char is crossbow oriented (but on the other hand a crossbow oriented char isn't gimped in melee, so it's not a problem).

Of course the crossbow pays off when you shoot some really good lancer's horse or assassinate some hero melee fighter, since that sort of thing wins rounds.

But my point is, unless you're going to play as a crossbowman, meaning spend most of the round firing the crossbow rather then charging around like a normal infantryman, it just doesn't make sense really to carry one. Consumes a lot of upkeep, weighs you down, and if you aren't playing as a crossbowman you'll be able to fire it once or twice. You're better off with throwing as a sidearm, or hell, even a bow, because these things can be fired on the move (bow not so much as throwing, but eg strongbow you can stop for a moment, fire, and resume moving, something impossible to do with a crossbow).

Overall, I think crossbows are fine, and the only thing I'd do is to make it rain less often.
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Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2011, 01:44:16 pm »
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For "How to play a crossbowman" look at DaveUKR.
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Offline Freland

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Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2011, 01:54:57 pm »
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Overall, I think crossbows are fine, and the only thing I'd do is to make it rain less often.
This is the one thing that needs to be changed as xbow is the only weapon to suffer a penalty from rain afaik.
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Offline Fasader

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Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2011, 05:35:22 pm »
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Second:

Make that so every point above 150 wpf in xbows still gives actual advantage. For now, one person did some tests and it shows, that there is no point in putting in xbows more than 150 wpf. I would like to put 180 in xbows, but it doesnt matter - i say: give us more accuracy if we are going to put wpfs above 150 points.

Discuss.

Unfortunately, the accuracy stat limits the minimum reticle size. Thus making wpf above a certain number, that varies from one crossbow to another, not give any extra accuracy, just increasing the reload speed and nothing else.
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Offline Dravic

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Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2011, 07:27:18 pm »
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just increasing the reload speed

Just? You just told me, that it is REALLY worth of putting more than 150~~ wpfs in xbows because reload speed REALLY makes difference!

Offline Gorath

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Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2011, 08:13:27 pm »
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Well... while I don't know what sorts of maps you play on NA servers, on EU servers on some maps playing as a crossbowman ( I was a crossbow/polearm hybrid last gen with more crossbow wpf of course) makes sense and nets you kills - but to score 3-4 kills in a round with a crossbow you'll need a good position, wpf (since you will be firing from range and even if you didn't you want the reload speed) and a bit of luck. However, on many maps it's more efficient to just melee, even if your char is crossbow oriented (but on the other hand a crossbow oriented char isn't gimped in melee, so it's not a problem).

Of course the crossbow pays off when you shoot some really good lancer's horse or assassinate some hero melee fighter, since that sort of thing wins rounds.

But my point is, unless you're going to play as a crossbowman, meaning spend most of the round firing the crossbow rather then charging around like a normal infantryman, it just doesn't make sense really to carry one. Consumes a lot of upkeep, weighs you down, and if you aren't playing as a crossbowman you'll be able to fire it once or twice. You're better off with throwing as a sidearm, or hell, even a bow, because these things can be fired on the move (bow not so much as throwing, but eg strongbow you can stop for a moment, fire, and resume moving, something impossible to do with a crossbow).

Overall, I think crossbows are fine, and the only thing I'd do is to make it rain less often.

Overall I think they're fine as well, which is why I said if anything were to be changed I would just go with a slight buff to projectile speed.  Whether that happens or not doesn't affect my decision to play an x-bowman.

Currently I play a 2her/xbow, polearm/xbow, 1h/shield + xbow and then a bunch of other random alts that I haven't been having much fun on (except maybe my crush through exploiter, though he gets boring really quickly).
All of them with 130 in their melee wpf, and 120 in xbow.  All of them use the heavy x-bow (occasionally dropping to a regular x-bow if I get unlucky with a bunch of total breaks in a row IE: every item breaks, even on a winning round, ouch).  In fact before I would even touch projectile speed I think I'd lower the upkeep on x-bows a smidge.  Not a ton, but a little bit since my heavy x-bow breaking is the same upkeep as my polearm/2her + gloves and armor combined in terms of cost.  And as I think you and most players would attest, the armor+gloves+weapon gets alot more kills more efficiently than the x-bow does except for on certain maps where we can camp in an elevated position for the majority of the round.
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Offline Wulzzz

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Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2011, 09:41:45 pm »
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I guess you mainly care about HorseCrossbowman.

No, they don't need any buff.
Their build already has a pretty nice advantage over HA.
Only needing 7 str and NO extra Crossbow skill while doing + - same damage per time.
That almost deserves a nerf instead of buff  :oops:
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 09:48:07 pm by Wulzzz »

Offline Gorath

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Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2011, 10:12:56 pm »
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I guess you mainly care about HorseCrossbowman.

What?
Who's even mentioned those people?  I don't think anyone cares about horse xbowmen.  They're like HA's with downs.
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Offline Mouse

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Re: Few things to fix in crossbows. [If you dont want to buff damage back]
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2011, 10:34:33 pm »
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What?
Who's even mentioned those people?  I don't think anyone cares about horse xbowmen.  They're like HA's with downs.

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