cRPG

Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: Tristan on December 04, 2011, 12:17:07 pm

Title: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Tristan on December 04, 2011, 12:17:07 pm
First of all lets keep flaming to a min. if you disagree with me, try to stay on point and argue why I am wrong.
Discussing meta-games in games is often sensitive so lets all just stay a bit aloof.

This thread is based on the following premise:

We would like to avoid one meta-block as the idea behind strategus is to combine strategy and tactics and a chance to play warband.

First argument:
It ain't just strategus. It is everywhere. I have played hours of Tribalwars, Kings age and Ogame and what not. I have been leader of larger alliances, won servers closed them what not. Pllaying a bit of Eve etc. But it always comes down to this:

Pre-server start a large active established clan rushes against another nemesis to gain momentum to kill the enemy. If the map is large several powerblocks can exist. If it ain't only two can. Either of those two sides then either conquers og bullies their way through their territory.

Such a game is mostly won in one of two ways:
1) At some point one block will gain the upper hand and knock the other part to their knees.
2) Internal dispute in a powerblock makes it crumble and the other block then:
a) Wins
b) Gives the remnants a chance to make a new powerblock in order to have an enemy to fight.

This is it. Smaller clans exist only to sort out active/non-active players only to conquer/recruit them into your fold.
More often than not the stalemate is only broken due to the internal dispute/inactivity of an important leader.

Enough about tribalwars etc. what does this have to do with strat?

Well, apart from the way battles are fought, it's exactly the same. They didn't find a counter for it.

If we force smaller factions, larger factions will just decentralise but in effect still be one clan.

Then can nothing be done?

I'm not sure. But:

1) The more there is for non-fief-owners to do, the better. A real chance for being a bandit or guard. NPC caravans and bandits?
Player owned ones are good, but there are not enough and profit from caravaning isn't great. Upkeep to troops are great and you can't get gold unless you are friendly with a clan that owns a fief. Fiefs are more important than ever before.
so: If small clans is to have a chance, find a way for them to make a living without fiefs. Forest hideouts? Small "villages" where you can hire bandits? Mountain hide outs... same shit.

2) A way so that people playing strat are playing strat. To many people don't play strat, they milk it. In other words it is to easy to organise and be a centralized organised whole. This is a) unrealistic, b) removes incentive and gives the faction leader god like abilities.
We have to find a way for people to be able to play strat, not just milk it. While production is all awesome and shit, a quest system might be more interesting. Faction leaders need npc bandits dead and give rewards for hunting them down (player fight for the npc's).
You need to "move" and do something beside click. Need people to think to make money.
A small organised active clan should be able to make more money than a medium sized clan of clones.

We need to find  way to break the evil meta of powerblocks that unfortunately hits every multiplayer-strategy game.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: chadz on December 04, 2011, 02:46:30 pm
A bigger map would help.

Next map will be 4 times bigger, 4 times more locations.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Zaharist on December 04, 2011, 02:49:44 pm
Nice joke
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: serr on December 04, 2011, 02:53:12 pm
 :D I hope it's not joke.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Zaharist on December 04, 2011, 02:56:38 pm
Still there are lots of AI controlled villages in current Strat. Yes let's make it bigger and we'll have 4 times more village fights with 2 defenders and completely no fun.
Factions should fight each other not vs AI, I believe this is the main idea of war game. Atm there are no reasons to fight each other except forum insults. That's the main problem of current strat.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Nessaj on December 04, 2011, 02:57:39 pm
I'm all for more incentives to play Strat but never add anything that has to do with AI.

The second this game turns into anything resembling PvE its doomed.

In regards to a bigger map, still split between NA/EU or do we get one for each region?
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Xant on December 04, 2011, 03:03:53 pm
A bigger map would help.

Next map will be 4 times bigger, 4 times more locations.

Even now there are a lot of villages that aren't captured, but in essence they still are someone's territory. What's to stop the megablocs from just claiming a bigger area of the bigger map, then crushing any small clan(s) that settle there?
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: chadz on December 04, 2011, 03:12:14 pm
I don't think that that's that much of a problem. Big clans can't conquer any faster than now, so if there is a bigger map, it will take faster to get filled and smaller clans or even individuals might have a chance of grabbing one. I'm hoping we see more rogue villages. Maybe some "defense bonus", whatever that may be, would be interesting right after conquering an AI village. That way small factions have some time to settle before they get re-conquered.

But yeah, NA and EU will stay on the same map, but maybe not the same peninsula.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Elmokki on December 04, 2011, 03:17:17 pm
Strategus needs to:

1) Make being an average player more interesting than recruiting troops or selling goods. One solution is making a cap (defined by something) to troops led by one player. If a faction starts a serious military campaign, majority of it's members should be moving with the army on the map.

2) Make having many people trade / craft in a fief benefit the fief owner enough to let people do that. I know Strategus isn't supposed to be 100% historical simulator, but it's a general real world principle that free trade makes communities prosperous, especially compared to very limited trade. There should probably be some sort of an infrastructure variable for fiefs, basically meaning that if infrastructure is low, less people can craft efficiently there. Basically this'd mean that high value goods and low infrastructure may temporarily make it worth it to have mercantilistic trade policies, but in the long run allowing people to trade should be worth it. But really, whatever is implemented what matters is that people should keep their fiefs open to non-bandit visitors in general and not because of game forcing it, but because of it being worth it financially.

3) Equipment prices. Yeah. They should be lower compared to gold income.

In general for Strategus economy I'd like to see ability to invest in things. After all, in real life there were three ways to be rich back then: Prosperous business, having rights of taxation or inheriting money. First two suit Strategus, but in Strategus you can really currently earn only with the first and it's implementation is a bit one sided too. It'd be nice if the player could increase crafting efficiency and speed by investing money on a fief. These would obviously be always revokable (or burnable if that's better for game balance) by fief owner so it's a risky investment, but if work and trade in a fief brought prosperity in form of taxes to the fief owner too, there's no real reason to burn/revoke the investments of people randomly.

Basically it's nice to see Strategus as more than a map where people can fight, but sadly the current implementation for economy is very simple, boring and also punitive for people who aren't friendly with a clan owning fiefs.

But yeah, these aren't really short term suggestions obviously :)
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Cyber on December 04, 2011, 03:34:43 pm
A bigger map would help.

Next map will be 4 times bigger, 4 times more locations.

Sounds good, just what i wanted to suggest myself :P. Strategus has become a lot more competetive and there are a lot more clans compared to V1 so we really need a bigger map.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Ganner on December 04, 2011, 03:35:56 pm
I think what we need also is anonymous village defenders for defending NPC villages.  This would encourage more people to sign up for village defenses.  With the amount of factions that are in alliance or "friendly" or even neutral, almost no one is singing up against each other.  Making the defenders anonymous would solve that issue.  Obviously you would want to watch the rosters to make sure factions weren't exploiting this but i think it could be easily done.

That is, along with fixing NPC villages not paying people :o

Maybe some "defense bonus", whatever that may be, would be interesting right after conquering an AI village. That way small factions have some time to settle before they get re-conquered.


I like this idea.  A possible extension on it would be a faction with <X number of fiefs gets a % bonus amount of tickets or something for defense.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: serr on December 04, 2011, 03:38:45 pm
Interesting idea, Ganner. I think also will be good to double experience for defenders of npc village.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Zaharist on December 04, 2011, 03:41:25 pm
Strategus has become a lot more competetive
one more funny joke.
love this thread  :lol:
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Cyber on December 04, 2011, 03:44:24 pm
one more funny joke.
love this thread  :lol:

Not really a joke.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: BaleOhay on December 04, 2011, 04:01:32 pm
I agree with Ganner. Need a mechanic that makes people want to defend the villages. Half the problem is no pay or reward but the bigger problem is diplomacy. If you see the same people signing against you every time boom reason for hostile relations. If the people fighting are nameless villagers you can speculate based on play style who you are fighting but can never really be sure.

If the map is 4 times bigger you will have to figure out a way to make people move faster with or without goods/crates. The rates now are insanely slow. Add more area to cover and I think you will bore the active people to death. Open up the trade radius a bit as well.

 
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Xant on December 04, 2011, 04:07:01 pm
Since the OP mentioned Tribal Wars... in Travian one player, if good enough, could easily keep a big carebear alliance down. Mainly because the best way to grow in that game is aggressive raiding and stealing everyone else's work. In Strategus you can only ever get away with raiding one caravan, then you'll get crushed because of how the system works. The problems in Strat, IMO, are that 1) one person can carry a LOT of goods so you can basically just send one extremely well armed caravan out 2) the whole 12 hour lockdown thing. You attack someone, chances are there will be someone waiting on top of you before you can move again.

Bigger map will help with 2) I'm sure, harder to keep the whole area covered.. or maybe not, depends on how the economy will work.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: SchokoSchaf on December 04, 2011, 05:29:27 pm
Right now strategus really shows very little incentive for small clans and clanless people and the "epic battles"-story seems to work less than simple organized clan battles. Sure it's hard to keep the balance and a big clan should have certain favors and implementing new stuff is an ass load of work.

I have really no idea how much work coding stuff is, but I'd be willing to work out some gameplay ideas and concepts. Just as long as someone would actually check it out to see if it would be possible to implement it.
But as it is now with the suggestion forum and the shear uncountable number of unconnected new propositions, I will not spend my time thinking for nothing and just be happy playing basic crpg when I want to.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: RandomDude on December 04, 2011, 05:29:36 pm
I like idea of nameless defenders for AI. Just because a clan attacks a village who you want to be friendly with doesn't mean they should win because they have 2-4 times as many players as the defenders.

Bigger map? Nothing to stop smaller clans being crushed (if they dont get outside help) but that will always be a part of the game.

Whether there's 2 big sides or not, i think a lot of people will view a clan as either a friend or potential enemy.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Gnjus on December 04, 2011, 05:31:05 pm
I don't think that that's that much of a problem.

That.  :!:
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: mandible/splinteryourjaw on December 04, 2011, 06:00:02 pm
I think the real problem here is that the community is small and people don't want to upset their internet friends.  This leads to these large alliances, and everybody wanting to be friends rather than play the game.  There seems to be a real problem separating friendship from gameplay.  The you attacked me now we are no longer friends and I'm going to join a huge, as you say, "carebear" alliance and destroy you, as well as troll you to destroy your rep on the boards mentality kills what could be a great game.  Can you imagine playing monopoly and before the game starts everybody lays claim to certain properties.  So you roll in hopes of landing somewhere, on something not "claimed."  What fun is it when you already know the outcome.

Cooties I understand why you want to avoid PvE.  I agree that a full scale PvE strategus may lead to other things, and I'm not sure there are enough players to support it anyway (w/o the AI eventually dominating.)  What I suggest are random AI actions that cause conflict between these huge alliances and the friend mentality.  By a roll of the dice force "carebear" members to attack each other or risk losing something.  Maybe make these actions only happen to fief owners or those with clan tags, to avoid the full PvE effect.  chadz you must make people understand that this is a war game, not a family reunion. 

The length of time it takes to gather resources and travel also plays on one's psyche.  I really want to battle, but I have to spend a month gathering resources for a 15 minute battle and then do it all over again.  No wonder people get ticked when attacked out of turn...there goes a month's worth of effort. 

Also, don't you dare get caught having fun by playing in a battle.  If you do, you are instantly labeled an enemy by the other team and forever at risk of the "carebears" polishing you off.  To everybody I ever merc'ed against I can assure you it WAS NOT PERSONAL.  I was just trying to have fun.  Because of all the griefing I don't even bother to sign up half the time now.  In my case it has nothing to do with the xp or gold I'm owed, my non-participation is strictly based on the griefing or threat of.   I am neutral and non-clan affiliated and still feel this way.  Attacks should be a part of gameplay, not retribution for a snide remark, a players nationality, trolling on the forum, etc.  The goal should be to own the entire map.  Now with the fief owners getting crpg benefits, the "carebear" mentality has become, "why not run off everybody we don't like and then live peacefully beside each other collecting our welfare."

This is a game meant to be played on the battlefield, but there are far more battles going on in the forums than in Strat.  I think ATS, Wataga, KOJ, Leikers, and others have it right.  Nothing personal, just fight.  They are the ones who need to receive the fief-owner benefits, since they are keeping the game unpredictable and thus alive.

By the way the re-inforce thing is useless.  Rules are as attacker, I can't be reinforced after 2 hours.  Although if I can have a re-inforcement army standing beside the battle within 24 hours to attack as soon as the battle is over, haven't I, in effect, been re-inforced.  Ex. ropynol, I think, attacked a DRZ caravan and won a lot of goods.  He immediatly lost these goods because while the battle was locked down a large DRZ force was able to muster itself and travel a great distance to stand beside him and await the outcome.  They then attacked and destroyed him.  This in effect was re-inforcement.  A cool down period is needed.

I would like to see horses have an effect on the quick march and exhaustion period...i.e. longer quick marches or shorter cool-downs.

tl:dr  strategus is a family reunion in its current state, hybrid PvE may be needed, reinforcement is useless, I think horses are more powerful than man
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Lepintoi on December 04, 2011, 06:16:32 pm
Factions should fight each other not vs AI, I believe this is the main idea of war game. Atm there are no reasons to fight each other except forum insults. That's the main problem of current strat.

Why are you not attacking anyone? Everyone around you feels safe enough to send all its troops towards us, with a DRZ threat in their backs the map would have been much more balanced and fun and actual strategy would have been necessary instead of just feeding troops into HRE lands :p...
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on December 04, 2011, 06:24:05 pm
An idea which may be considered shite but anyways: Larger map, AI players for AI fiefs, and only local mercenaries.

So a larger map as in more fiefs, "local" mercenaries as in only people within certain distances to fiefs can sign up to battles, and AI players for AI fiefs to stop the initial game being too easy. Discuss?
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Keshian on December 04, 2011, 06:27:21 pm
I agree with Ganner. Need a mechanic that makes people want to defend the villages. Half the problem is no pay or reward but the bigger problem is diplomacy. If you see the same people signing against you every time boom reason for hostile relations. If the people fighting are nameless villagers you can speculate based on play style who you are fighting but can never really be sure.

If the map is 4 times bigger you will have to figure out a way to make people move faster with or without goods/crates. The rates now are insanely slow. Add more area to cover and I think you will bore the active people to death. Open up the trade radius a bit as well.

Yeah, 2-3 weeks per trade caravan now would become 6-7 weeks on the new map.


Alos, chadz, this is the best news for strategus I 've ever heard, much bigger map yeahhhhh!!

Also, the whole anonymous neutral fief mercs is great idea, will need more active admins to check rosters and make sure clanmates not signing up on other side and intentionally wasting equipment or dying, but still great idea.

Also, a big thing too is that 24 hour window allows every caravan that gets attacked, even if it loses, to be attacked immediately afterwards and have the goods regained.  This hurt banditry a  lot against any large faction, especially large factions with carebear alliances along their entire trade routes across the entire map.  Cooldown before being attacked after a battle would be useful (3-4 hours so can enter fief).
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: serr on December 04, 2011, 06:44:18 pm
Quote
Yeah, 2-3 weeks per trade caravan now would become 6-7 weeks on the new map.
Then make it pointless to send caravans furher than half of map.

Quote
Also, the whole anonymous neutral fief mercs is great idea, will need more active admins to check rosters adn cmake sure clanmates not signing up on other side adn intentionally wasting equipment or dying, but still great idea.
No. At first, since most of admins are members of clans, they should not see real names of defenders, so it is task only for developers. At second, they don't have to be online, they can check roster after battle and ban someone if there will be exploiters.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: chadz on December 04, 2011, 06:47:46 pm
There is already a 1h cooldown after winning a fight (you can't be attacked during that time). But I feel it's not going far enough. I would actually like to implement a raiding option for hero vs hero, and if you win as attacker, you get teleported free of cost. The problem I foresee is that the amount of exploit possible with that is just horrible.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Xant on December 04, 2011, 06:52:01 pm
Maybe a considerable speed bonus after you win a fight, in addition to the 1 hour cooldown? Then to catch the bandits you'd need to be a lot faster yourself or actually get some people with you to surround the area.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Zaharist on December 04, 2011, 06:55:06 pm
Why are you not attacking anyone? Everyone around you feels safe enough to send all its troops towards us, with a DRZ threat in their backs the map would have been much more balanced and fun and actual strategy would have been necessary instead of just feeding troops into HRE lands :p...
You'd better ask Vovka or Nebun, cause I am not involved in faction management since the middle of first strat.
I can't say I agree with their passive gamestyle.

But in general at the moment there is no sense in attacking anyone. Gameplay doesn't force us to attack other faction.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Elmokki on December 04, 2011, 06:58:37 pm
Crpg itself and definitely a big part of the battle related strategus stuff is in the M&B module system Python. Strategus web interface is javascript and php. Is the whole Strategus running on php though or is there something else behind it?

No real reason to ask, I'm just interested.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Tomas on December 04, 2011, 07:10:47 pm
Some random comments, suggestions based on what has been said before

1)  Trade bonus should stop increasing altogether after only a moderate distance (say 50km).  This will remove the more controlled land = more money mechanism from Strat which is making the carebear alliances so sucessful.

2)  Population loyalty.   Loyalty when you capture a fief = 20% and decreases by X every day.  X = 5 for a village or a Castle and 10 for a Town.  Then for every faction member you have in a fief, the loyalty goes up by 1 per day.  Finally, maximum fief efficiency is multiplied by the Population Loyalty %.  This means that you have to continually populate all your fiefs with faction members which in turn limits how big a faction can grow.  So a 10 man clan will be able to hold 2 castles/villages (although they won't be able to increase the population loyalty).  A 50 member clan meanwhile will be able to hold 10 castles/villages or 8 castles/villages + 1 Town.

I don't know exactly how many faction members there are in Strat, but my value for X can be changed based on the total number of faction members.  There are 109 villages, 48 castles and 22 Towns so my values for X will support upto 1005 Strat faction members without forcing conflict.  As an aim I'd try to support around 90% of the faction members so that a bit on conflict is necessary :D.  So the following formual for X should be right

X = Total_Strat_faction_members / 0.9 / (#_of_villages + #_of_castles + 2*#_of_Towns)
X is then doubled for Towns

This method will still allow wars of conquest against other factions, as it takes time for your loyalty to decrease, but fighting these wars is not to gain land, it is to wipe someone out to allow new factions to take their land or to take their land in place of your old lands as they are better.

EDIT: forgot to say. If loyalty gets to 0%, the fief rebels and turns neutral

EDIT2: An alternative to my 90% option is to make it 110% which will ensure that there are always neutral fiefs around.  Also there needs to be some sort of major bonus to holding a town to make sure people go for these, which in turn will free up villages for new factions to conquer
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Tristan on December 04, 2011, 07:38:28 pm
We still need incentives and actions for individual players. There need to be something_they_can_do.
I fully get that more npc's are bad, but then lets consider more alternatives.

A larger map will definitely make a difference. It gives more room and time for smaller clans to prepare a defense.

At the same time some sort of cost should be associated with keeping large amounts of troops in one place. Disease often killed more soldiers than wars.

If more than x allied_troops in y vincinity, then z% dies and q% equipment is lost.

This gives smaller clans a figthing chance against steamrolling. Moving thousands of troops should not be easily possible and terrain should have a huge impact on this!
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Nebun on December 04, 2011, 08:33:20 pm
4x bigger would be perfect!
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Elmokki on December 04, 2011, 10:33:35 pm
Yes, attrition would be a decent thing to implement for armies of over 100 or so units close to each other and away from a (friendly) town
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Erasmas on December 04, 2011, 11:09:24 pm
x4 map is to much. x2 would be enough... I do not think there is enough players/factions  to take it all, and the troops transfer will be horrible. But, in general +1.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vovka on December 04, 2011, 11:11:53 pm
x5 map ^^
x10 speed with horsies
 :P
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Nessaj on December 04, 2011, 11:22:56 pm
Well since the map is split between NA/EU it is basically only x2 the map size for each region. I'd personally say go x8 so there's x4 for each region.

There should be a bunch of neutral fiefs left for newcomers etc to use then, for a long time, which would definitely encourage more to groups of players to give Strat a shot.
The fact that there could be areas totally unaffected by big alliances (or any people in general) is just a major plus.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Tristan on December 04, 2011, 11:27:07 pm
Well since the map is split between NA/EU it is basically only x2 the map size for each region. I'd personally say go x8 so there's x4 for each region.

There should be a bunch of neutral fiefs left for newcomers etc to use then, for a long time, which would definitely encourage more to groups of players to give Strat a shot.
The fact that there could be areas totally unaffected by big alliances (or any people in general) is just a major plus.

Very true indeed. I find it rather odd that we absolutely need every part of the map owned by players. Just screws over new clans.
And add attrition... very important on a big map. A large clan should NOT be able to cover everything!
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Elmokki on December 04, 2011, 11:28:52 pm
4x size map means double width and double height (2x * 2y) = 4xy where x is width and y is height of current map and xy is the area of current map. So basically map width and height are 100% higher.

2x size increase is about 41% increase on width and height of current map (sqrt(2)x * sqrt(2)y) = 2xy

For measurement 3x map size would mean 73% higher length and width and 5x would mean 123% higher.

It's hard to say what's actually a good idea. What also matters is wether it'll just be a zoomed current map or something else. If you draw a new map with more water than the current one the effective area gain is obviously smaller.

I for one think medieval europe would be a very awesome map, though it'd lead to endless disputes about historical accurate of place names and whether some place should be in the map or not. Also if that happens, please just skip adding the northernmost parts of Europe. English channel, Gibraltar and the straits between Denmark and Sweden (and possibly Stockholm <-> Turku) can just be handled with a new terrain type. Those don't really require a REAL navy to cross in real life either, but forces arranging some sort of a transport.

If you insist on keeping the NA/EU split a fantasy map might suit better though. It'd be fairly stupid to see pretty much any sort of a split in Europe map.

Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Sphinxer on December 04, 2011, 11:46:39 pm
A bigger map would help.

Next map will be 4 times bigger, 4 times more locations.

It's just delaying the inevitable ... Carebears will just offer more villages to their members / bitches and they will have even less reasons to attack each other since there will be plenty of villages.

Less villages = forcing wars between the big factions
More villages = Big Factions will pick even more on smaller factions to conquer easy villages
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: SoA_Sir_ODHarry on December 05, 2011, 12:19:24 am
ye less Place=moar War

and how bout too get some Zendar towns where neutral peeps  not bothered by Clan politics which throw not welcomed peopel out of their fiefs, Bandits can hide and smaller Clans can craft and gain forces to have moar influence.
They could be simpel Mountain fortresses almost impossibel to take for any Clan.
also AI could start some expiditons when the too big clan allys choke the game and give clanless mercs some moar fun at strat
and some big caravans so there constant battel events because obviously many would try too raid them.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Harpag on December 05, 2011, 01:37:41 am
I think you should consider more slots in locations with 100% efficiency of crafting / recruitment, instead a larger map.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Tristan on December 05, 2011, 02:33:24 am
I think you should consider more slots in locations with 100% efficiency of crafting / recruitment, instead a larger map.

Would serve the opposite goal. Instead of forcing larger clans to spread out and suffer from corruption they can instead focus and centralize.
More spots would not make clans open their arms to neutrals. It would just cause their members to produce trade goods at 85% instead of 69%.

More villages with fewer spots would combined with corruption and attrition to armies would give smaller clans a chance and give people in no clans a chance to find a village where to work.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Slamz on December 05, 2011, 03:16:02 am
Just brainstorming...

"Culture wars".

Every clan has to pick a culture.  These can be from the single player game.  Nord, Vaegirs, etc.  This is not the same as picking a "team".  If my clan is Nord and your clan is Nord we can still fight each other.

Each culture gets different, unique bonuses.

Culture is on a sliding scale, 1 to 100.  The higher your culture is, the better your unique bonus is.

Culture goes up 1 point per day.

If you interact with any culture other than your own, it goes down 4 points.  Nord trades with Vaegir, both lose 4 points of culture.  If ever your culture hits 0 while interacting with another culture, you will switch to their culture and start gaining points in it daily.  e.g., Nord with 1 culture point trades with Vaegir who has 50 culture points -- Nord clan is now a Vaegir clan.


So you would not have a big clan splinter into several sub-clans in an effort to get multiple cultures, because swapping troops, goods, gold, etc, between them would keep undermining their culture.  Eventually some dominant culture would likely emerge in which case they might as well just all be in the same clan again.

A small Nord clan that is genuinely its own clan and rarely interacts with other clans would therefore have something unique to offer: the Nord bonus.  They are "true Nords" and as long as they keep their interactions with others to a minimum, they will stay that way.  If some mega-clan overran them and incorporated them into a big Vaegir alliance then the Nord clan would slowly end up switching to Vaegir, losing the thing that made them different.


Maybe, for example, Nords are the best throwers and one of the top shielders.  Every 20 points of Nord culture grants them +1 shield skill (in strategus battles), +10 throwing wpf and +1 PT.  Or maybe only Nords can craft huscarl shields, and the higher their culture is, the cheaper they are and the faster they can make them.  (Rhodoks meanwhile might be shield/spear/crossbow specialists.)

So a big clan might want a casual alliance with a small clan in order to get some useful diversity on the battlefield, but the small clan needs real separation in order to retain their Nord culture and therefore their Nord bonuses.  And by retaining real separation, it might be easier to maintain real splits in the larger coalitions as any sub-clans within the group would have to maintain a large degree of independence if they wanted to maintain their separate culture.

Other cultural influences might include proximity to other fiefs, members of your clan working in a fief from another culture, bonuses for working in a fief from your own culture, etc.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Dehitay on December 05, 2011, 03:36:25 am
Well since the map is split between NA/EU it is basically only x2 the map size for each region. I'd personally say go x8 so there's x4 for each region.
I feel obligated to point out that it would be x4 for both regions of the map if the map itself was quadrupled in size. The mathematician in me can't let this go uncorrected.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Mechanix on December 05, 2011, 03:45:10 am
I agree with Ganner. Need a mechanic that makes people want to defend the villages. Half the problem is no pay or reward but the bigger problem is diplomacy. If you see the same people signing against you every time boom reason for hostile relations. If the people fighting are nameless villagers you can speculate based on play style who you are fighting but can never really be sure.

If the map is 4 times bigger you will have to figure out a way to make people move faster with or without goods/crates. The rates now are insanely slow. Add more area to cover and I think you will bore the active people to death. Open up the trade radius a bit as well.

Agree!

But I think we need a mechanix.. not a mechanic.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 05, 2011, 07:51:48 am
I doubt increasing map size would help much. The carebear alliance (UIF) is so big they would claim 3/4 of the map again.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Erasmas on December 05, 2011, 08:00:32 am
There is a limit in number of fiefs that can be effectively managed by clan, and that number depends on the number of members. So - no, it is not true for any faction or alliance. At some stage the fiefs are simply ineffective and undefendable.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 05, 2011, 08:09:12 am
Good, but is Strat about taking fiefs and just idling in them or is it about fighting? Because when it comes to fighting there will be no difference, no matter the map size. You guys will stick together again versus a few small clans who actually want to fight but will stand no chance. Sure, they will be able to return to their fiefs on the other side of the map and idle there like you do.

Oh oh maybe even a better idea, make another separate map only for carebears where you can play sim city all the time, fief idling like a boss!
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vovka on December 05, 2011, 08:25:24 am
Good, but is Strat about taking fiefs and just idling in them or is it about fighting? Because when it comes to fighting there will be no difference, no matter the map size. You guys will stick together again versus a few small clans who actually want to fight but will stand no chance. Sure, they will be able to return to their fiefs on the other side of the map and idle there like you do.

Oh oh maybe even a better idea, make another separate map only for carebears where you can play sim city all the time, fief idling like a boss!
no one clan cant offer send more than 5-10k troops (its 5-10 active members who already involved in the management of the village or caravans) in same time even small clan can easy hold 2-3k troops in each village
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Lepintoi on December 05, 2011, 09:20:42 am
Oh oh maybe even a better idea, make another separate map only for carebears where you can play sim city all the time, fief idling like a boss!

I agree, please make a separate map for clans that want to actually play a 'Risk' like game. If you would split up NA and EU in two different maps I'm even considering playing on NA side...
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Matey on December 05, 2011, 10:35:31 am
i like the Russia/EveryoneElse split idea :D maybe give them Poland too!  :lol:
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Zaharist on December 05, 2011, 10:46:32 am
i like the Russia/EveryoneElse split idea :D maybe give them Poland too!  :lol:

it's not RussiaPoland/EveryoneElse it's EveryoneElse/PussiesWhinersLosers ;)
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Matey on December 05, 2011, 10:58:05 am
i dunno... pussies/whiners/losers accounts for just about everyone in strat.
fcc and those still stuck fighting UIF= whiners
uif = pussies
all the clans who lost all their land to uif already and stopped playing = losers

whos left?
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Harpag on December 05, 2011, 11:18:21 am
Hey, Aemaelius before you give me a minus, think for a while. My proposal is probably very simple and fast for implementation. It's important, because we play here and now. Centralization - it's true, but it gives great potential for faction with only one village (read - small clans). You don't need to have a lot of villages to be strong. In our particular case, three or four villages would be ok. It can work nearly as big map.
Simple and quick solution, similar to better XP, without making a doctorate.

PS. Ppl, stop complaining and trolling.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Slamz on December 05, 2011, 11:29:39 am
Another random brainstorm idea...  people familiar with World War 2 Online will see where I'm coming from on this.  It's also complicated but hey, chadz did say he was running out of ideas.  I have lots!


Picture if you will...

Players can only carry 30 troops with them.  We'll call this a "skirmish group".
Skirmish groups work just like now: they can go anywhere and do anything the player feels like doing, but only with 30 troops.

There are also "armies".  Armies can have any number of troops in them.
Armies are created by the clan leader and then assigned a controller (another clan member or himself).
Each army has multiple components:
Headquarters (this is what the clan leader initially creates -- it consists of a minimum of 50 troops but can have as many as you want)
1-4 Brigades (created separately and assigned to the HQ.  Minimum 50 troops each.  No maximum.)

* The headquarters must be in a clan owned or neutral fief (village, town or castle) in order for the army to function normally.
* If the headquarters is not in a clan owned or neutral fief, then its brigades cannot attack and will fight at 1/2 strength if attacked (you get half of your troops and half of your equipment list -- the other half is retained if you win and destroyed if you lose).
* Brigades can roam around and operate similar to a skirmish group, but they are limited to a range of 20km from their headquarters.

This represents logistics/supply.


This should do several things:

1) Clans will tend to expand outwards from a central hub as their big brigades can only attack 20km away from an owned resource.  You have to progress smoothly across the map.
2) You can sort of create a "front line" and a "back line".  If your castle is 21km away from the nearest enemy fief then you know they can't attack it.
3) "Raids" will be attacks on backline places with skirmish groups.  Raids work just like attacks except if you win, you greatly impair the efficiency of that fief for 6 days rather than capture it.  So 5 players can bring their troops together to raid some village that their main armies can't reach and if they win, it burns (and they may get looted equipment and so forth).
4) More action on the map.  Rather than 1 player being 1 army, he can potentially be controlling many separate armies.



So Digglez assigns me Army 1 which consists of an HQ and 2 brigades.
We own Ambean, surrounded by hostile fiefs.
I send brigade 1 towards Tahlbert (19km away) to attack it.
I keep the other brigade at home, with the HQ brigade.
I move myself towards Mechin (> 20km away) with my 30 troops and some clanmates to raid it.

While this is happening, I see an FCC brigade coming from Jelbegi Village.  Backstabbers!  I send my second brigade towards it with orders to attack.

Some raiders attack Ambean.  This engages the village garrison.  If I want, I can move stuff from my HQ brigade into the village as well.

So now I have battles pending:
* Our raid on Mechin
* Enemy raid on our village of Ambean
* Our 1st Army, 1st Brigade attack on Tahlbert
* Out 1st Army, 2nd Brigade attack on the incoming FCC brigade.


The underlying idea here is that small clans don't necessarily need allies everywhere, they just need allies at places within 20km of their home village.  If you anger LLJK it won't matter too much -- they can't just build up 3000 troops and walk across the whole map to trounce you for the hell of it.  They'll have to beat everyone in between you and them so that their armies have a place to attack you from.


Other Option A:
We might have capitals and "supply roads".  For 1000g you can create a supply road between your capital and any fief within 20km and then expand out from there in similar manner.  Every HQ must have a supply link that can be traced back to the capital.  So even if there is a neutral village next to you, LLJK can't just go there and take it, then attack you.  At best, they could create a splinter clan to do it in their name, but then that splinter clan will be completely on its own, unable to receive support from LLJK armies, which would have no supply up there.

Other Option B:
Like option A except instead of building roads within 20km, roads are built into the map.  Rather than use 20km limits, you are simply limited to attacking with armies along connected roads.  If there is no road between Ambean and Tahlberg, I can't use my armies to attack it. (WW2O and Planetside both worked like this -- also it's somewhat like Risk.)
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Tot. on December 05, 2011, 12:12:52 pm
Well, the bigger map gives smalltimers more chance to actually capture some villages, though it doesn't solve much if they retain their attitude 'either we win or we GTX/flee/kill you with boredom'. Proportions will remain the same unless smaller clans will finally start doing something else than forum wars and organize together. At least with bigger map they might have some interest in preserving the ownership of the locations they had captured before Hannibal came to their gates.

Unfortunately, thinking players isn't something you can implement.  :wink:

Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Camaris on December 05, 2011, 12:29:10 pm
Well, the bigger map gives smalltimers more chance to actually capture some villages, though it doesn't solve much if they retain their attitude 'either we win or we GTX/flee/kill you with boredom'. Proportions will remain the same unless smaller clans will finally start doing something else than forum wars and organize together. At least with bigger map they might have some interest in preserving the ownership of the locations they had captured before Hannibal came to their gates.

Unfortunately, thinking players isn't something you can implement.  :wink:

the only thing you want is good fights without anyone being  dangerous to you.
every different size of map will just speed things up or slow things down.
It wont change the big blob. it wont change that everyone gets raped without a chance
at some time. Probably nothing cant be done if players dont change.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Lepintoi on December 05, 2011, 12:36:12 pm
Its UIF that has to change, not the game.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Dalhi on December 05, 2011, 12:41:45 pm
Its UIF that has to change, not the game.


Go on, give us some ideas.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Tot. on December 05, 2011, 12:52:12 pm
Its UIF that has to change, not the game.

Instead of keeping on with these F5-forum-wars you might want to use that energy to figure out what you did wrong that you lost. :)
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Camaris on December 05, 2011, 12:54:43 pm
we trusted in wolves and had not enough allys.
probably you suggest us to join the side with most allys next time.
perhaps we should do this.

back to topic:
there were such good ideas in this forum how to get things to even out.
- penalties for holding too many villages
- depending on membercount of every clan
- ai revolts if there are not enough member of the owner around in a village
- loyality system

all those would prevent clans to take half the map before the real game even has started
or any castle or city is taken.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: dado on December 05, 2011, 01:02:53 pm
I think what we need also is anonymous village defenders for defending NPC villages.  This would encourage more people to sign up for village defenses.  With the amount of factions that are in alliance or "friendly" or even neutral, almost no one is singing up against each other.  Making the defenders anonymous would solve that issue.  Obviously you would want to watch the rosters to make sure factions weren't exploiting this but i think it could be easily done.

That is, along with fixing NPC villages not paying people :o

I like this idea.  A possible extension on it would be a faction with <X number of fiefs gets a % bonus amount of tickets or something for defense.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Zaharist on December 05, 2011, 01:20:36 pm
Its UIF that has to change, not the game.
Try to change yourself first. May be then you'll be able to do smth
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 05, 2011, 01:50:26 pm

Go on, give us some ideas.

Start playing Strategus, not Sim City
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Gheritarish le Loki on December 05, 2011, 02:01:11 pm
I guess we need a real Clan management system and a real alliance/diplomacy system (for example : you will have to be allied to make some action like transfer troops, for trading you'll need trade agreement, etc.)
I know that such system are oppressive and cut down player creativity, but it comes with restriction that allow to regulate big alliances.
With such system you can favourite small clans and gives restrictions to big clans/alliances.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Erasmas on December 05, 2011, 02:06:45 pm
Vibe,

Strategus, as the name suggest it, is about strategy. We (Grey Order) do have a strategic target and we work on it. It takes time in current game environment.

Actually, you should be glad that GO did not do anything in this Strat round yet (except for taking fiefs), but I understand you being worried by that...

EDIT - and trust me, it has nothing to do with any alliances GO may have.

EDIT2 - you got bored? Start the war on your own, I personally have nothing against it. We need to deal with the actions of other players and so you do.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 05, 2011, 02:09:53 pm
Is the strategic target one of the UIF clans? No? Ofcourse not
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Blondin on December 05, 2011, 02:18:07 pm
The problem is that small clan have no other choice that ally to bigger one otherwise they are wiped, i don't say it's not normal and logical, but there is no other option.

Small clan can't exist without a big daddy to cover their back against biiger one, bigger map could solve the problem as small clan could find a place that no one wants.

Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Erasmas on December 05, 2011, 02:25:31 pm
Bullseye, Blondin, I totally agree. IMHO bigger map will resolve this issue to some extent, but may bring another problems, like making everything very local due to time required to go in longer distance. But it is a small price and can be counterbalanced.

Also I am aganist the NA/EU split. To cut the crap that will fall after this statement - not because of any alliances but because it will make Start more complicated and unpredictable, more spicy. Just as it was before. Having a neighbor fighting on different servers forces players makes you to look at matters from another angle, forces players to make more strategic decisions.

EDIT. even a small factions may need a place to stay. How can you expect few guys running the clan of bandits without ability to craft items or recruit troops due to lack of access to the location. 
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Erasmas on December 05, 2011, 02:28:20 pm
Is the strategic target one of the UIF clans? No? Ofcourse not

It is not your business.

EDIT: Or, actually it may be your business :wink: but (on serious note) who gave you the right to allow or disallow other factions to enter into any diplomatic relations with other factions? It is our internal issue. What would you say if we state "Fallen cannot be in alliance with HRE" or "Fallen have to ally with Templars now."

In certain circumstances you may achieve this effect - forced alliance or forced break of the alliance. That is what diplomacy is about, to some extent. We have seen that before (quite recently in fact), it usualy ends badly.

All in all the whole rant about "carebear alliances" should be regarded as badly performed propaganda and provocation. Nasty move but viable. That is a part of the game as well.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 05, 2011, 02:48:48 pm
Oh jesus you're so full of shit.

First off, I'm not telling any clan what they should do. I'm simply saying that you and your west Calradia carebear bunch are lame.

Telling facts is "badly performed propaganda"?
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Erasmas on December 05, 2011, 02:50:34 pm
Oh jesus you're so full of shit.

First off, I'm not telling any clan what they should do. I'm simply saying that you and your west Calradia carebear bunch are lame.

Ah, ok. Fuck you then.

Telling facts is "badly performed propaganda"?

It is not about telling facts, it is about telling the (twisted) perception of them. It is propaganda and it has aim. If you do not see that, I am sorry. In fact, the information on certain events was stated incorrectly, but I am not in position to correct them.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Lepintoi on December 05, 2011, 03:02:06 pm
If you have nothing to fear from your neighbours it is a major strategic advantage and you can concentrate all your effort on one spot. Bashi, Raven,Risen and DRZ have nothing to fear from their neighbours and can feed troops to the front and overwhelm the enemy. Thus making it a short lived game, after that of course you can start attacking each other and have epic battles... I'm just annoyed it has to be this way and i can't join in :)

EDIT : I will not continue on this issue because the good ideas that were stated here are getting flooded out xD
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Tristan on December 05, 2011, 03:21:43 pm
Hey, Aemaelius before you give me a minus, think for a while. My proposal is probably very simple and fast for implementation. It's important, because we play here and now. Centralization - it's true, but it gives great potential for faction with only one village (read - small clans). You don't need to have a lot of villages to be strong. In our particular case, three or four villages would be ok. It can work nearly as big map.
Simple and quick solution, similar to better XP, without making a doctorate.

PS. Ppl, stop complaining and trolling.

It's not a personal minus, it's a post minus. And I still don't like the idea.

The way I see it, the fewer fiefs the lesser chance a small clans has to even own a domain. It is not a matter of advantage when you have one. It is the problem of getting one at all.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Nessaj on December 05, 2011, 04:23:29 pm
Yeah, no.

The problem is that too many are way too friendly towards each other, for no apparent reason due to the current game-play. Having an alliance, or friends should not be an easy side-thing in Strategus, it needs to be a decision that has benefits and consequences, not just benefits. Medieval style!

Making things more local is indeed the right move, if there's far between everyone there's a way better chance of a proper working Strat world for all ways of playing it - Unless a large group predetermine to go to the same place, hence IMO why more installments would be needed, such as dividing all areas into zones where who ever has most land in the Zone is the 'King' of the zone, making everyone else in that zone his subjects, with no exceptions, no one is equal, let's throw some taxes and what not on top too. These zones would need to be very large though so that if you can make a claim for a zone, it would still be a hard task to do and maintain.

I want loads of random bandit attacks, neutrals running around, raids what not going on. Full scale war shouldn't just be something you just do instantly or randomly whenever, especially not ones that take up most of the map in terms of action - not that any Strat round should go without some big ass wars of course, I'm not saying we shouldn't have full scale wars, they need to be there of course, but there's many other aspects to the game that can coexist, all we need is a few damn reasons, at the moment there's no reason not to be in a huge friendship circle, if one wishes to be, at least there should be consequences then, to ensure proper game-play.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Keshian on December 05, 2011, 04:33:01 pm
What Strategus could be?  First half of strat 1.0 - tons of little wars between 1 clan possibly 2 clans against another and much vying and fun was had by all.  Then slowly the metagamers arrived where they steadily have been adding everyone and everyone into one mega-alliance and also supported heavy glitching and multi-accounting - all in the name of winning rather than having fun. 

Now this alliance composes over 70% of the player base on strategus and if you don't realize how stupid and boring that is to have 70% of a small community stroking each other's junk, you don't understand any of the fun of strategus where allies one day could be enemies the next or vice versa or sign a  non-aggression pact and buy fiefs or have dynamic fluctuations common by NA side of map.  Frankly - not NA, but these metagamers should have a separate part of the map with an uncrossable ocean and the people trying to have fun, actually can have a fun game environment for all the people wanting to have fun.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Erasmas on December 05, 2011, 04:40:57 pm
Kesh - you want fun? Start the war. But do not cry about how other factions decide to play the game, it is not your business, and not your choice. 
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Lepintoi on December 05, 2011, 04:48:37 pm
Starting a war is pointless because you will be wiped off the map by the carebears...
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Tristan on December 05, 2011, 04:57:14 pm
I really like your suggestion Cooties.

Something along the lines of Crusader Kings (Paradox game). If you have x% of fiefs under your control or your vassals you could claim a title.
A title gave you the right to tax people.

In strat it could work something along these lines:

If the map is to be four times larger than now, then lets have 4 kingdoms.
Each Kingdom contains 5 duchies. You can claim a Duchy title when you have 66% of the fiefs in a duchy. HAving the duchy title gives you the right to tax every fief owner in the duchy.
When you control 3 of the 5 duchy titles or your vassals (Must be official vassals through an ingame system), you can claim the king title.
When you have the king title you can set a tax for the kingdom and what not.

Add to that:
- Attrition
- Vassal diplomatic system

It requires a larger map.

And we have something going.

Edit: Oh and if you gain 3 kingdoms you gain the title emperor and win the game!

Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Keshian on December 05, 2011, 04:59:52 pm
Kesh - you want fun? Start the war. But do not cry about how other factions decide to play the game, it is not your business, and not your choice.

This is a suggestion corner for next strategus and so yes its my business to post the failures of previous strategus - and it lies far more with the playerbase than the developers.  This game has a huge amount of potential for great fun and yes, FCC has started a crazy amount of wars trying to shake things up in strat 2.0 and 3.0, but all that happens is there is one mega-alliance that basically just promises lands and/or winning (through having more people than all the othe players in the game combined) to every clan that ever gets defeated or whose leadership has a meta-game mentality. 

It started with strat 1.0 with 22nd, Grey Order and Legio Italica being incorporated at different points into the russian DRZ, STR, BIA alliance, between strat 1.0 and 2.0 it was Risen and BashiBazouk, strat 2.0 it was  Hospitallers, Occitan, Chaos, ATS (mercing heavily for you after defeated), White Company and LL (some EU clans forgetting their names) and in or before strat 3.0 it was desert alliance of 8 other clans ( and I dont know at what stage Ravens got involved in, pre-strat 3.0?).  The only clans that have left so far are Chaos and ATS and White Company (LL pretty much dissolves recently) - what a surprise - all NA clans.  The metagaming mentality of the leadership wanting to be on winning side - even if its boring as fuck for the every day player in their clan - is lacking all imagination as all these clans never fight each other and the ultimate end - EVERY FUCKING CLAN ONE BIG HAPPY FAMILY IN A GAME DEVELOPED FOR WARS AND BATTLES!

You never change things up or try anything new or enjoy a dynamic shifting game, so its always the same boring people fighting each other rather than actually having shifting relations and thrilling wars and new relationships with former enemies.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Lt_Anders on December 05, 2011, 05:21:23 pm
Could it be, that this alliance is doing this because they have common, mutual enemies?

Strat 1, the point was to wipe out the weakend templar bloc, strat 2, it was a grand alliance to wipe  FCC out because FCC had declared war on NE, mercs, and then Chaos, and DRZ.

Now FCC has same allies, doing same shit, and you wonder WHY people ally/fight against you? Bah! Learn your own history, kesh.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Gheritarish le Loki on December 05, 2011, 05:27:10 pm
This is not even a matter of enemies or friends, i can't say i like the way carebear alliance are done, but it's quite logical that this things happens.

There is only advantage to have allies and be a part of a big alliance, why ppl would not make it?
Kesh you are harsh against this carebear but it's the system that drive to this behaviour, not the ppl thinking or will.

As i said, i don't like carebear alliance and i'm not a big fan of Drz, but there is plenty of other thread where you can spitt your personnal dislike for a faction, if this thread could stay unpersonnal and just try to discuss on a new system, that could be better for everybody.

TLDR : no flame war on this thread!

Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Lepintoi on December 05, 2011, 05:41:25 pm
Ok can someone recap the good ideas in this thread ^^
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Gnjus on December 05, 2011, 07:09:30 pm
Kesh - you want fun? Start the war. But do not cry about how other factions decide to play the game

He already did. And it wasn't too much fun for him in it, since he didn't really win a lot, as he hoped for but he sure cried a lot. For the next version of Strategos he should be changing his avatar into something more appropriate:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Jarlek on December 05, 2011, 07:11:28 pm
Ok can someone recap the good ideas in this thread ^^
Mute Kesh permanently on the forums? Takes away 95% of the whining 85% of the made up BS.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Thax on December 05, 2011, 07:32:17 pm
In the "vote for your continent thread", I tried to explain the differences in NA/EU play styles and the reasons for them. The best part about strat 3.0 has been the forum drama but thats getting boring too.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 05, 2011, 07:38:00 pm
Some really good suggestions in here...
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: SoA_Sir_ODHarry on December 05, 2011, 08:06:34 pm
As it seems its just too simpel too gain large forces which wipe out any chance too have fun in strat for smaller clans/alliances and clanless players.
And when u think about  there is no way too get a system which prevent the effect that manys more powerfull than less with the current Battelmode.
So it is the simplest solution, if its not the singel choice ,too balance this problem with 1 or more than 1  battelmodes which gives small forces at least a chance too win against bigger ones.
Also its just too easy too create a big army and take action with it.
Therfor are already several good ideas.
The basic term for a better "Armysystem" suits for strat is:

Bigger Plans bigger Problems.
 
Biger Army bigger Problems too provide the Upkeep
Bigger Army bigger Problems too equip it
Bigger Army bigger Problems too move it from point A too B too take Action C
Bigger amount of Fiefs Bigger Problems too hold it.
U want a bigger Treasur than u need a bigger Economy.

So if u have smaller Plans u have smaller Problems.
currently there is almost no sense too have small plans because there is no place for them in strat and so there is no place except for Big Clans/alliances with small problems.

So why not set some simpel Borders through  Battelmodes givin everybody the chance to realize their Plans big or small ones?
My idea:

-RAIDS
The Name says all..
Too make them usefull there need to be a strict relativ small Cap of Troops which can be used for.
In my Opinion Raids should be a Option for every singel Player in Strat so everybody has the Chance too get some Fun and wealth and they got the potential to be an easy medium too help balanceing the power of Clans.
Too entrench them as a component its also neccesary too give small  armys a good speedbonus over bigger ones...
Also the total amount of equipment should affect an armys speedbonus.
And the Raiders need a save Place where they can hide/Trade/recruit, otherwise they are nonsense or again such an Option for Big Faction members.
How could they balance Clans?:
If Raids are a everyday thing they gotta deal with , it would take some ressources too deal with them and thats ressources they cant use for otherhings.
It would be neccary for them to steady divide some troops and equip too keep they Territory save.

Battels:
simpel set some borders too the amount of troops that will give small Clans a far bigger chance to achieve something.
1/3 of the smaller sides troops as maximum advantage sounds fair too me.
so there is no final border of tickets.




 

Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Erasmas on December 05, 2011, 08:53:17 pm
I do not dare to sum things up, but let me express few of my personal thoughts about Strat. These are general as the matter is extensive enough to make Ph.D. on that. Save yourself the TL;DR comments, if you don't want to read it - it is your problem.  And I want to stress that it is not addressed AGAINST anyone it is just my personal view on Strategus as a whole. 

I wrote that post more or less at the same as Harry wrote his, so you will see that we have a lot in common. I do not agree with the last part of Harry's post, about the battles - if you managed to move your big and heavy snail army - you did a great job and therefore should be able to use it.

WARNING: Opening all spoilers at once will scare you off.
 
GENERAL VIEW
(click to show/hide)

CURRENT STRAT ROUND
(click to show/hide)

SMALL FACTIONS AND INDIVIDUALS
(click to show/hide)

BIG VS. SMALL
(click to show/hide)

ALLIANCES AND DIPLOMACY
(click to show/hide)

RAIDING
(click to show/hide)

SIZE OF THE MAP AND EU/NA SPLIT
(click to show/hide)

You guys may be surprised that I (being member of the large faction) wrote a lot about making big factions weaker. Well, I believe that it will make things more interesting for everyone. I do want to worry about next steps, consider decisions. I do want this game to be difficult.

All in all I think that this Strat round has great potential. Majority of changes (such as increasing XP from Strat battles or tweaking maneuverability), and tests of them may be done without wipe. 

Ok, it turned out to be a little chaotic, maybe I will comb that mess later.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Matey on December 05, 2011, 09:00:01 pm
Could it be, that this alliance is doing this because they have common, mutual enemies?

Strat 1, the point was to wipe out the weakend templar bloc, strat 2, it was a grand alliance to wipe  FCC out because FCC had declared war on NE, mercs, and then Chaos, and DRZ.

Now FCC has same allies, doing same shit, and you wonder WHY people ally/fight against you? Bah! Learn your own history, kesh.

lol Anders... learn our history before you tell us to learn it.

we picked a fight with mercs, fought a long bloody battle before agreeing on terms of peace, turned around and joined drz and fallen in their plan against NE, took land from NE, were immediately attacked by DRZ once our NAP ran out because DRZ made peace with NE factions as soon as they got all the free land they could get, at which point they then allied with the remnants of the NE in order to attack FCC and gain more land... which didnt really work at all... and then 2.0 wiped.

we actually tried to get along with DRZ in 2.0 but they greatly underestimated us and tried for some easy land, and i think they hate us now because we were showing everyone that they arent invincible.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Kalp on December 05, 2011, 09:11:48 pm
Quote
- ability to transfer gold to cRPG at a decent ratio (it is done already)
Where is that option ?  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Erasmas on December 05, 2011, 09:14:11 pm
FU, I will not tell you :-)
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Harpag on December 05, 2011, 09:51:47 pm
Where is that option ?  :mrgreen:
Trying to transfer gold from faction to cRPG will be punished by death :!:  I swear, I will murder you in cold blood...
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Lt_Anders on December 05, 2011, 10:01:32 pm
lol Anders... learn our history before you tell us to learn it.

we picked a fight with mercs, fought a long bloody battle before agreeing on terms of peace, turned around and joined drz and fallen in their plan against NE, took land from NE, were immediately attacked by DRZ once our NAP ran out because DRZ made peace with NE factions as soon as they got all the free land they could get, at which point they then allied with the remnants of the NE in order to attack FCC and gain more land... which didnt really work at all... and then 2.0 wiped.

we actually tried to get along with DRZ in 2.0 but they greatly underestimated us and tried for some easy land, and i think they hate us now because we were showing everyone that they arent invincible.

bah, almost all that sutff there is back room deals minus the war declarations, and some other minor things here and there.

But, the point STILL stands, your fought what, 5 factions/blocs last strat and then whine and moan that those blocs are coming after you?
Concerning the DRZ attacks, meh, worked is speculative. By the point of the wipe, the NA Alliance of Carebear Parties(or NAACP, or in other words you.) had lost 2 villages.  But, this discussion is not about Alliances, but metagame. I just find that of all the people posting incessantly about carebaring is coming from the NAACP themselves which itself is a carebear alliance.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Matey on December 05, 2011, 10:07:34 pm
so we should all just say "fuck it" and war each other until we get zerged by the UIF? as opposed to trying to be able to offer up some resistance?
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Kalp on December 05, 2011, 10:10:09 pm
Trying to transfer gold from faction to cRPG will be punished by death :!:  I swear, I will murder you in cold blood...
Daddy why ?  :cry:
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Lt_Anders on December 05, 2011, 10:11:40 pm
so we should all just say "fuck it" and war each other until we get zerged by the UIF? as opposed to trying to be able to offer up some resistance?

Yea. Otherwise can it and deal with it. If you are going to bitch about Carebear, then break it up. the NAACP has 1/3 of NA lands. If goons get added, that's half the NA map in control of 2 alliances. Can you see why i'm so damn annoyed by this carebear back and forth?
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Matey on December 05, 2011, 10:16:19 pm
except that the EU carebear alliance will have 99% of the EU map soon, as well as up to 25% of the NA map.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Xant on December 05, 2011, 11:22:24 pm
except that the EU carebear alliance will have 99% of the EU map soon, as well as up to 25% of the NA map.

FCC IS THE WORLD'S ONLY HOPE, LAST LINE OF DEFENSE

Will FCC endure against the endless hordes or will all things good and beautiful die with you?
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Matey on December 05, 2011, 11:30:04 pm
didnt i already say we will kill them all till they go home?  :lol:
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Xant on December 06, 2011, 12:03:44 am
didnt i already say we will kill them all till they go home?  :lol:

May the Force be with you.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Harafat on December 06, 2011, 12:59:46 am
Daddy why ?  :cry:

+1
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on December 06, 2011, 03:33:25 am
What Strategus could be?  First half of strat 1.0 - tons of little wars between 1 clan possibly 2 clans against another and much vying and fun was had by all. 

Cool story bro, first half of strat 1 was simply dominated by the incompetent templar bloc until we and our good friends crushed it.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Harafat on December 06, 2011, 04:28:07 am
Honestly, you 22nd guys should take the chance to shut up whenever it's handed to you, if my faction had your track record this strat, i knew i would.


visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Sorry lepi for flaming, and its even your BDAY! All Hail Lepi, ruler of men and animals!

edit; had to put that pic in
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Sphinxer on December 06, 2011, 06:37:49 am
Vibe,
Strategus, as the name suggest it, is about strategy.

That man has high education ...do not mess with him ;)

Mute Kesh permanently on the forums? Takes away 95% of the whining 85% of the made up BS.

Best idea so far, keep the good work ;)

didnt i already say we will kill them all till they go home?  :lol:

You sir were gifted with the Warrior Spirit ... Keep the good work too !

[...]

TL;DR ?

Long story short , I feel really bad for EU who don't unite to make a stand , but instead allied themselves to "the" alliance. Shame on you, you disgrace your Ancestors! Now being officially neutral I can say this : It is better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees. Even if FCC get wiped, it's impressive to see what's needed to fight them. Were the 300 Spartans happy to die from such a battle where they don't fear to be outnumbered ? They had something to be proud of. What about you ? Let's ally everyone, farm troops and equip, and when we feel that we outnumber people a lot, let's attack. Until then , let's sit back and wait and just troll on the forum. We'll fight when we are very sure to win without much challenge. Well guess what, they'll fight hard and they won't fall easily.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on December 06, 2011, 06:45:43 am
Honestly, you 22nd guys should take the chance to shut up whenever it's handed to you, if my faction had your track record this strat, i knew i would.




lol, what exactly is that supposed to mean?

We beat De Bitre, we beat the Antarian's, we hold Buillin. Of course you can believe the nonsense that all our stuff is given to us by the "UIF" but that is just that, nonsense. Fact is we have been grinding out the trade goods quietly since strat started. How is HRE doin?
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Sphinxer on December 06, 2011, 06:54:48 am
lol, what exactly is that supposed to mean?

We beat De Bitre, we beat the Antarian's, we hold Buillin. Of course you can believe the nonsense that all our stuff is given to us by the "UIF" but that is just that, nonsense. Fact is we have been grinding out the trade goods quietly since strat started. How is HRE doin?

Yeah as if you guys did all of this by yourself .. you're just another puppet. Don't even try
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on December 06, 2011, 07:10:39 am
De Bitre and the Antarians are both small clans, nor do they seem to have mercing agreements on the same level as we do. We used 1400 tickets in our war with them (not including the essential neutral village defence), this is not a large amount. The average level of equipment was pretty poor on both sides, and cheap, not a major accomplishment.

I do not see "all this" as being all that much. Maybe you think fighting a few small battles and taking a village is pretty big and that is your prerogative, you are free to think what you will.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Sphinxer on December 06, 2011, 08:06:37 am
We're all someone's bitch, aren't we ? The sooner you accept it, the better :)
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Keshian on December 06, 2011, 08:40:09 am
Cool story bro, first half of strat 1 was simply dominated by the incompetent templar bloc until we and our good friends crushed it.

You mean that clan that rolled you and all of your 3-4 fiefs just by themselves in like 2-3 days before you became DRZ's bitches who fed you crazy amounts of troops and equipment to win along with the help of RuConquisat, STR, BIA, and every other russian clan in the game, because you lose when its a  1 v 1 fight??  Always have been like that little brother who brags when his big brother comes along and beats people up, while pretending it is you.  I have yet to see a Strategus where it wasn't almost completely your allies that succeeded while you rode on their coattails and yet you are always the loudest braggart of the bunch.

lol, what exactly is that supposed to mean?

We beat De Bitre, we beat the Antarian's, we hold Buillin. Of course you can believe the nonsense that all our stuff is given to us by the "UIF" but that is just that, nonsense. Fact is we have been grinding out the trade goods quietly since strat started. How is HRE doin?

Thats interesting, there never was any reported battle of Den Bitre v. 22nd.  Oh yeah, a bunch of grey order and DRZ defended a neutral village against them, but then the server crashed and when  it came back they had lost a lot more mercenaries than the village and didnt have enough to take it.  Of course, 22nd takes credit for 1) server crash, 2) Drz and Grey order mercs, and 3) neutral fief.  Just like always, take credit for what stronger clans do, while really accomplishing nothing on your own.

Antarians, hmmm, oh yeah, you couldn't take a neutral fief after 2 months of strategus, so another clan came in and started doing what you were incapable of on your own and you attacked after they just had heavy losses taking a neutral villlage and like a vulture claimed a "Great victory."   Lol. 

How many fiefs do you own of the 10-11 you claimed 2 months ago when start 3.0 came out?? 1.

If you were not part of the same mega-alliance  that protects its baby brother since strat 1.0 and does all the tough work for you, any decent-sized EU clan would have just stepped in and easily taken all your claims.  So instead your "claimed" land has 3 of the 5 untaken villages in EU (union and grey order took 2 of them, noticeably you never challenged that).
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Gnjus on December 06, 2011, 09:05:54 am
Top 10 dick moves of all times in cRPG/Strat are done exclusively by the game's developers/admins/moderators:

1. Allowing Keshian to register in the game.
2. Allowing Keshian to post on forums.
3. Not banning Keshian permanently after the first wave of unthinkable garbage from his keyboard.
4. Not giving Keshian a mute after every single rubbish post he makes (which is every single day)
5. Not banning Keshians game key, IP address and about everything else you can ban right after his first mutation expired and he started with his garbage again, meaning he didn't learn the lesson.
6. Not tracing down Keshian in real life and find out as much information about him as possible, so they can ban him over & over again after he comes back from point number 5 (see above).
7. Not stating that "We don't listen to Kesh", similar to what Paul stated about Tzar.
8. Not deleting every single "suggestion" & reply he makes before poor people hurt their eyes by reading it.
9. Banning P-a-n-o-s ahead of Keshian.
10. Not removing every single evidence of the name "Keshian" from this game & forum (similar what they did with P-a-n-o-s), making it 100% impossible to write that name ever again, no matter how hard you try.

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Lepintoi on December 06, 2011, 10:44:42 am
We beat De Bitre, we beat the Antarian's, we hold Buillin. Of course you can believe the nonsense that all our stuff is given to us by the "UIF" but that is just that, nonsense. Fact is we have been grinding out the trade goods quietly since strat started. How is HRE doin?

We are being fucked in every oraface by 8-10 clans ganging up on us but apart from that we are doing fine and dandy :)
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Zaharist on December 06, 2011, 12:03:32 pm
Kesh's faith in his theories is so strong
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Gheritarish le Loki on December 06, 2011, 12:19:15 pm
Kesh's faith in his theories is so strong

Sure it's propaganda, but if fallen attacked the 22nd (i use past because they will certainly not attack 22nd now...! :wink:) what would you have done? and it's the same for any members of the "old" UIF, no?

(i don't criticize, you guys showed that you are men of honor and speech, that never let down an ally).
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2011, 12:48:44 pm
What they have shown is that they are a bunch of carebears that disregard challenge to win for the reasons of flexing e-peens in stupid threads (like the Risen/Bashi win brag thread over Byzantium last round).
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Zaharist on December 06, 2011, 01:08:19 pm
What they have shown is that they are a bunch of carebears that disregard challenge to win for the reasons of flexing e-peens in stupid threads (like the Risen/Bashi win brag thread over Byzantium last round).
Did you forget first Strat? What 22nd have shown? How fiefless faction can fight enormous block. In the very beginning they didn't have much allies and even Greys were about to fight vs 22nd, sending 6k troops from Gisim to Fenada.
They have shown their strength and will and factions started joining them in fight against Templars.

Unfortunately there are no factions in current Strat who can try to do smth like Pub Crawl. I guess PC was the last attempt to resist. Now it's only forum talks, whines and endless UIF blaming.

It seems that for you (you, who are not able to resist ex-UIF factions) it's better to believe in Kesh's theories. You can't believe that fiefless faction can organize itself and start fighting against all odds vs supreme force.
Kesh's theories excuse your impotence and encourage forum whines.
Go on.

Sure it's propaganda, but if fallen attacked the 22nd (i use past because they will certainly not attack 22nd now...! :wink:) what would you have done? and it's the same for any members of the "old" UIF, no?

(i don't criticize, you guys showed that you are men of honor and speech, that never let down an ally).
Frankly speaking, I don't know what would happen. At least what would DRZ do.

thanks-)
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2011, 01:10:51 pm
Zaharist I'll start believing UIF lies when I actually see a fight in west Calradia. Till then you're all just one big fief idling alliance to me.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Erasmas on December 06, 2011, 01:12:41 pm
Zaharist I'll start believing UIF lies when I actually see a fight in west Calradia. Till then you're all just one big fief idling alliance to me.

I though you already believe that UIF lies all the time???  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Zaharist on December 06, 2011, 01:15:20 pm
There are 2 possible ways:
1. Fight those guys who spread lies on forum and talk BS about your ingame friends you know since Native release (or even beta test)
2. Fight vs each other when there are still lots of 'Keshs and Kesh followers' who spread lies ...
What would you chose?
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2011, 01:23:24 pm
I though you already believe that UIF lies all the time???  :rolleyes:

Lies yes or no, doesn't matter. You guys work together, even if it's just peace. Whatever the fuck you guys are plotting versus eachother I don't know (but I doubt you are). As I said, I'll believe it when I see it.

There are 2 possible ways:
1. Fight those guys who spread lies on forum and talk BS about your ingame friends you know since Native release (or even beta test)
2. Fight vs each other when there are still lots of 'Keshs and Kesh followers' who spread lies ...
What would you chose?

The way I see it, there are 2 possible ways:

- easy mode (gang up on smaller clans with your thousand friendly clans)
- challenge mode (actually consider overall strat balance and not only care about winning)


But hey, can't change ones mentality ye?
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Zaharist on December 06, 2011, 01:26:51 pm

But hey, can't change ones mentality ye?

Indeed. you can't stop whining.

In both ways it's pleasure. Even more pleasure fighting equals, but it seems that first of all whiners should be wiped. They are tooo annoying and can ruin all the fun with their endless tears.

Anyway I am not in charge since strat 1. and I don't know why do ex-UIF clans still pay attention to you. I have to deal with it and wait for some fun in future, when they will stop beating mosquitos
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2011, 01:35:07 pm
Well, keep being carebears and we'll keep whining.

In both ways it's pleasure. Even more pleasure fighting equals, but it seems that first of all whiners should be wiped. They are tooo annoying and can ruin all the fun with their endless tears.

This just shows how much you care about winning and not community. Conclussion: no point in talking sense to a bunch of egoistic children.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Zaharist on December 06, 2011, 02:09:13 pm
Frankly speaking I care only about my own pleasure and fun for ppl I play with.
It's not about winning or losing, it's only about having fun playing together. For me Strat battles in good teams like 22nd, Grey, Union, DRZ is the only interest in this mod. (edit: also forum is very funny to read)
And don't even try to blame me for being egoistic after all that hatred this community showed towards DRZ ;)

Also, I am not representing any bunch of children, I am talking only on behalf of myself.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2011, 02:11:45 pm
Frankly speaking I care only about my own pleasure and fun for ppl I play with.
It's not about winning or losing, it's only about having fun playing together. For me Strat battles in good teams like 22nd, Grey, Union, DRZ is the only interest in this mod.

Quite obvious. So, what will you do when there's noone left to fight? Attack every randomer for a 1000vs49 battle?
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Zaharist on December 06, 2011, 02:12:43 pm
We'll see.
I am not Oracle.
But sure it won't be 1000vs49.

And again. Once again.
I am talking on behalf of myself
i am not representing any group of ppl, faction or alliance. I am talking on behalf of myself.

If you want to ask any ex-UIF faction about their future plans - you'd better ask them, not me.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2011, 02:13:51 pm
Right well, the future is quite obvious, no need to be an oracle to see this.

Unless the devs actually come up with a good idea to break your circlejerk.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Zaharist on December 06, 2011, 02:15:56 pm
Like ban all whiners, who obviously can't do anything %)

I see, Vibe, your faith is strong as Kesh's.
Have fun playing cRPG, I won't bother you anymore
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2011, 02:17:30 pm
Apparently you have run out of good retorts so yeah, I'll just end my rant here.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Phyrex on December 06, 2011, 02:21:54 pm
These issues are quite easy to solve(But a lot of code required probably.)

Adapt or evolve Strategus to a more Total War-like game.

Random spawn locations for factions.

Turn settlement areas into regions, add more obstructive/impassible terrain and make it slightly more linear with a choke point here and there(Don't over-do it!)

Make a set amount of troops recruited each day from villages to the faction leader instead of players recruiting them.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2011, 02:25:04 pm
Make a set amount of troops recruited each day from villages to the faction leader instead of players recruiting them.

This could be a good step forward. Less player number crutching, atleast.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Tristan on December 06, 2011, 02:37:52 pm
Dear random forum admin. Would you pwweeeeaaase delete any thread not containing constructive critisism or solutions to the mechanics of strat?
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Zaharist on December 06, 2011, 02:41:34 pm
Make a set amount of troops recruited each day from villages to the faction leader instead of players recruiting them.
not to faction leader, troops should stay in fief, withdrawable.
Amount should decrease with every new taken village.otherwise bigger factions will have xtime more troops then smaller factions. on the other hand, bigger factions will split into smaller.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Phyrex on December 06, 2011, 02:47:06 pm
This could be a good step forward. Less player number crutching, atleast.

There's a lot of reasons why we see huge alliances, this is one of them.

Look at the entire western part of the map, the pattern is obvious. Allies like to stay close to each other. Random faction spawn would help. You'd end up with your faction spawning at a random location with random neighbours. A lot more small-scale, more local wars instead of block 1 vs block 2.

A set amount troops which the faction leader could recruit each day at the village would make the playing field equal. Mass recruitment and mass alliances are linked, you win because you have a massive numerical advantage.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2011, 02:55:49 pm
There's a lot of reasons why we see huge alliances, this is one of them.

Look at the entire western part of the map, the pattern is obvious. Allies like to stay close to each other. Random faction spawn would help. You'd end up with your faction spawning at a random location with random neighbours. A lot more small-scale, more local wars instead of block 1 vs block 2.

A set amount troops which the faction leader could recruit each day at the village would make the playing field equal. Mass recruitment and mass alliances are linked, you win because you have a massive numerical advantage.

I'm relieved that atleast some of you are not biased about this matter. Strat as it is now is all about having numbers. A fixed number of troops per fief to faction leader/fief manager would fix this problem I believe. Maybe even make it like Zaharist said, every following fief that you own gives less troops. Problem here is, how would a faction capture their first fief?

As for the neighbours and random faction spawns, you would need to lock factions down from moving to have that work. If you have them spawn at random locations they can always move to their allies and lock down an area.

Now if we combine both problems there's a good solution that comes to mind - have a faction get a free fief at start at a random location. This way you have troops from start and you can't just move anywhere you want (atleast at start).
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Phyrex on December 06, 2011, 03:00:53 pm
not to faction leader, troops should stay in fief, withdrawable. 
Amount should decrease with every new taken village.otherwise bigger factions will have xtime more troops then smaller factions. on the other hand, bigger factions will split into smaller.

Yes, that's what I meant, withdraw able.

That's another issue that would spring up. The big factions splitting into smaller ones.

Random faction spawn locations would help here as well. Take DRZ for instance, if you decided to split up into 3, you'd still spawn randomly and all your neighbours are equally strong. Sending reinforcements to the other side of the map is not feasible. You'd have to march for days or even weeks in the worst case scenario.  Through hostile regions and you'd end up with no defenders at all at your starting location. Don't forget the upkeep as well.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Keshian on December 06, 2011, 03:06:10 pm
Did you forget first Strat? What 22nd have shown? How fiefless faction can fight enormous block. In the very beginning they didn't have much allies and even Greys were about to fight vs 22nd, sending 6k troops from Gisim to Fenada.
They have shown their strength and will and factions started joining them in fight against Templars.

Unfortunately there are no factions in current Strat who can try to do smth like Pub Crawl. I guess PC was the last attempt to resist. Now it's only forum talks, whines and endless UIF blaming.

It seems that for you (you, who are not able to resist ex-UIF factions) it's better to believe in Kesh's theories. You can't believe that fiefless faction can organize itself and start fighting against all odds vs supreme force.
Kesh's theories excuse your impotence and encourage forum whines.
Go on.
Frankly speaking, I don't know what would happen. At least what would DRZ do.

thanks-)


Lulz, "fiefless faction fight enormous block".  You guys openly admitted feeding thousands of troops and gear to them.  They were nothing without you and your half-dozen allied russian clans who also were attacking Templars (who turned out to be the paper tiger of strat 1.0 with most fiefs having no gear and their leader not even playing).  You brag about having Grey order and Legio Italica joining your ranks after you glitched transfer chains with members turning off their banners and having equipment and troops cross the map in a matter of an hour to get deep in DL territories.  These are all things you openly admitted to after being caught.  And now you deny it, lulz.  22nd got its ass handed to them by Templars and ebcame your proxy bitches for that strat, was Grey order's little bitch in strat 2.0 and is still UIF bitch in strat 3.0 allowing most of DRZ trade to come form them filling up Kulum, one of their claimed fiefs.

Also, Gnjus, you make me laugh so hard I could cry, you try so hard to insult me and all I see is some pitiful excuse of a guy who brags on the forums about how he never drinks and he charges into battle - a little kid desperately crying out for approval.  I honestly don't give a fuck what foolsa nd idiots think about me, I would much rather openly tell the truth than get involved in you guys kissing each other's asses.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2011, 03:07:55 pm
Yes, that's what I meant, withdraw able.

That's another issue that would spring up. The big factions splitting into smaller ones.

Random faction spawn locations would help here as well. Take DRZ for instance, if you decided to split up into 3, you'd still spawn randomly and all your neighbours are equally strong. Sending reinforcements to the other side of the map is not feasible. You'd have to march for days or even weeks in the worst case scenario.  Through hostile regions and you'd end up with no defenders at all at your starting location. Don't forget the upkeep as well.

Either way, this is a great idea. Tie troop and gold income to fiefs (& random spawns). Deserves it's own thread, can you be arsed making one?
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Phyrex on December 06, 2011, 03:08:44 pm
Problem here is, how would a faction capture their first fief?

As for the neighbours and random faction spawns, you would need to lock factions down from moving to have that work. If you have them spawn at random locations they can always move to their allies and lock down an area.

Now if we combine both problems there's a good solution that comes to mind - have a faction get a free fief at start at a random location. This way you have troops from start and you can't just move anywhere you want (atleast at start).

Exactly my thought.

Factions would sign up for each Strategus round and then be given a starting village.

Hell, why not build on that concept further? You can upgrade your villages to Castles or Towns. The possibilities are endless.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2011, 03:13:51 pm
Exactly my thought.

Factions would sign up for each Strategus round and then be given a starting village.

Hell, why not build on that concept further? You can upgrade your villages to Castles or Towns. The possibilities are endless.

Your idea is a nice base to build upon, that's for sure. That's why I insist that we put it in it's own thread :D
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Phyrex on December 06, 2011, 03:17:25 pm
Alright, give me a moment, writing from my iPhone.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Erasmas on December 06, 2011, 03:21:37 pm
Well, interesting, but one more thing to consider: the big factions would split not in two but in may more factions, like lets say 5. Some of them will be closer than others. All will co-operate. Some will abandon their locations at some stage to conquer other''s land, to concentrate the power. Deals will be made between players to swap fiefs - even if it only means ablility to hide in them . It may not resolve any issue after all, but the start would be surely interesting.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Zaharist on December 06, 2011, 03:22:02 pm
Exactly my thought.

Factions would sign up for each Strategus round and then be given a starting village.

Hell, why not build on that concept further? You can upgrade your villages to Castles or Towns. The possibilities are endless.

I like the idea of factions formed before start of the round and then randomly spawn on map.
but what if you don't want to play in this faction any more? quit and form new one? Exploitable, if we talk about any disadvantages of having too many fiefs or players
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2011, 03:30:54 pm
I like the idea of factions formed before start of the round and then randomly spawn on map.
but what if you don't want to play in this faction any more? quit and form new one? Exploitable, if we talk about any disadvantages of having too many fiefs or players

I guess this could be dev controlled, aka devs actually approving factions before they can enter strat.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: BaleOhay on December 06, 2011, 03:37:08 pm
Interesting concept. I would be for it..

Would have to watch clans forming one massive faction and enrolling as just that one faction. If that was possible it would not change anything.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Harafat on December 06, 2011, 03:41:12 pm

Factions would sign up for each Strategus round and then be given a starting village.


Best idea i've read in this pile of junk yet.

+1 and give it it's own thread plz !
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2011, 03:42:32 pm
Interesting concept. I would be for it..

Would have to watch clans forming one massive faction and enrolling as just that one faction. If that was possible it would not change anything.

This is exactly what this change prevents. So many clans spawning as one faction would mean that they only get ONE starting fief for many clans. A lot worse option than each clan having their own fief.
Also, since troops/gold would all be fief based I guess this would give more incentive to fight over them.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: BaleOhay on December 06, 2011, 03:44:46 pm
yeah 10 pages of BS and a decent idea. Glad I stuck to it and read thru.. There would also need to be a minimum player amount to request a faction and fief. hate to see 1 man factions with a fief... or big clans splitting into smaller ones to get several.

maybe have an option in the beginning to pick faction or bandit. If you have a faction you get a fief and if you pick bandit you are placed with other like minded bandits get a neutral fief or impliment bandit hideouts
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Harafat on December 06, 2011, 03:47:04 pm
Also, this random starting point thingy, would make trading and raiding a lot more interesting for the factionless players and bandits. With this you would be doin the clans a favour (more action, more war), and the clanless people. I dont see how any1 could be opposed to this, except possible exploits ofc

Edit: And ofc, in the end, the larger alliances would have the upper hand, but thats only natural. Be4 this happens the game would be a lot more interesting for everybody

2nd edit: Whoever came up with the idea, plz make a sperate thread for this, i will if it hasnt been done by tonight, but i dont want to steal any1's thunder
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2011, 03:50:20 pm
yeah 10 pages of BS and a decent idea. Glad I stuck to it and read thru.. There would also need to be a minimum player amount to request a faction and fief. hate to see 1 man factions with a fief... or big clans splitting into smaller ones to get several.

maybe have an option in the beginning to pick faction or bandit. If you have a faction you get a fief and if you pick bandit you are placed with other like minded bandits get a neutral fief or impliment bandit hideouts

Good idea. We still haven't covered how we would handle solo players with this idea. There should be a minimum player count for making a faction, solo players could join the neutral faction (called bandits or whatever), neutral faction would have a fief or two that could not be conquered.

Edit: And ofc, in the end, the larger alliances would have the upper hand, but thats only natural. Be4 this happens the game would be a lot more interesting for everybody

In the end perhaps, but random spawn locations at start prevents from forming alliances right away and locking down an area.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Harafat on December 06, 2011, 03:52:38 pm
However, this would imply the end of the EU/NA split, which would be a good thing imo.

Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2011, 03:54:01 pm
hahaha rickrolled you with the 2nd edit!

fixd :3

In any case, this is a much better solution than what we have now.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Phyrex on December 06, 2011, 03:59:29 pm
I'm writing the thread, but from my phone. Will post the whole thing when I get back from work in 1hr.

As for bandits and solo players. You need to make stuff they can do. Take bandits for an example - Introduce trade routs along roads which factions use for trade to their nearest accessible neighbours. Just like in Total War, bandits can jump into these and block all incoming trade and steal the wares for themselves. Factions need to secure their regions and borders and voila! More stuff for your standard faction grunt to do(instead of recruit camp in villages.) + bandit players. They have to actively patrol and watch the roads and borders.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Keshian on December 06, 2011, 04:20:48 pm
I'm writing the thread, but from my phone. Will post the whole thing when I get back from work in 1hr.

As for bandits and solo players. You need to make stuff they can do. Take bandits for an example - Introduce trade routs along roads which factions use for trade to their nearest accessible neighbours. Just like in Total War, bandits can jump into these and block all incoming trade and steal the wares for themselves. Factions need to secure their regions and borders and voila! More stuff for your standard faction grunt to do(instead of recruit camp in villages.) + bandit players. They have to actively patrol and watch the roads and borders.

Or just make roads give 3x speed travel (ships 5x speed) so its the obvious choice for long distance travel (caravns take forever now), but they also become where bandits all congregate so you need regular patrols to clear them out (maybe even random bandit parties as well like single player with minimal gear and 50-70 troops, so no more 1 man caravans with 80 crates of goods).  if a merchant wants to avoid the risk, he can decide to go the much slower route of going through forests, plains, mountains, etc.  Would need to make limited possibility of seeing on the map people located in forests and mountains stronger.

With ships it would be set sea lanes (basically like a road, but favorable currents and winds) and pirates hang along the routes, but slower off the sea lane, but less dangerous.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Harafat on December 06, 2011, 04:22:48 pm
However, this roads and regions thing sounds .... complicated to code to say the least. Terrain in this strat implements that you have to go over plains as much as you can, avoiding forest, hills and mountains so basicly the roads are already there, they are just plains now.

I think starting with the random fiefs for factions would be a good beginning.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Keshian on December 06, 2011, 04:26:02 pm
However, this roads and regions thing sounds .... complicated to code to say the least.

I think starting with the random fiefs for factions would be a good beginning.

Not really, its just a different terrain type.  So setting movement rate is the same as settng movement rate for forests, etc.  If a bigger map is being developed its not that hard to add a new terrain type called "road".  Sea I am not so sure about as ships seem harder to code, but chadz has already talked about working on roads and ships and how owning cities along the ocean was important this strategus because of ships.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on December 06, 2011, 04:46:24 pm
(click to show/hide)

---

Anyway sounds like an idea with potential Phyrex, but abusable by splitting factions. I would be surprised the the devs approve a system whereby there have to manually approve new factions.

Personally I think this is the best solution to the current problems of strat http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,21567.0.html but I would say that wouldn't I.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Gnjus on December 06, 2011, 05:10:23 pm
a guy who brags on the forums about how he never drinks and he charges into battle

You can't even read properly but that's not cRPG developer's fault, this "issue" goes all the way to your days of basic education (if you had any at all).
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Keshian on December 06, 2011, 05:14:19 pm
You can't even read properly but that's not cRPG developer's fault, this "issue" goes all the way to your days of basic education (if you had any at all).

What you quoted has nothing to do with your statement about cRPG developers.  I don't really know what to say to you anymore, its kind of obvious you are some barely literate eastern european 15 year old boy that rants about archers constantly even though he spent most of cRPG playing an xbowmen and doesn't realize the hypocrisy.  I honestly pity you at this point and find it really difficult to feel any anger at such a  pitiful creature.

Oh and plazeck - that was the battle where you cheated so badly with glitching beyond the city walls, getting on inaccessible roofs past invisible walls behind the defenders and just camping as defenders even though attacking.  Of course in strategus 1.0 you and DRZ were absolutely notorious for the worst cheating and glitch abuses of any strat version.  Hell you guys even started with your first server, have yet to see you guys not glitch/cheat.


But back on topic - great idea Vibe and Phyrex, glad you started a thread about it.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Kalp on December 06, 2011, 05:18:54 pm
Quote
I don't really know what to say to you anymore, its kind of obvious you are some barely literate eastern european 15 year old boy that rants about archers constantly even though he spent most of cRPG playing an xbowmen and doesn't realize the hypocrisy.

And it says someone who has in profile

Quote
Age:N/A
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Gnjus on December 06, 2011, 06:49:12 pm
its kind of obvious you are some barely literate eastern european 15 year old boy that rants about archers constantly even though he spent most of cRPG playing an xbowmen and doesn't realize the hypocrisy.  I honestly pity you at this point and find it really difficult to feel any anger at such a  pitiful creature.

 :)

Obvious fail is obvious. I think its more then clear who needs to be pitied around here.  :wink:
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Keshian on December 06, 2011, 06:52:26 pm
:)

Obvious fail is obvious. I think its more then clear who needs to be pitied around here.  :wink:

You.  :wink:
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Sphinxer on December 07, 2011, 08:25:43 am
Lock this useless thread .. every time we try to discuss Strategus , it always end with enemies trash talking and trolling ...

Oh and mute Kesh again ? :D (<3)
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Nebun on December 07, 2011, 03:36:12 pm
funny observation

One crabebear alliance started by mercs to kill "another" carebear alliance is unhappy because their carebear alliance failed to develop on the map. And then even split up and at war with eachother.
Then NA (FCC) carebear alliance, worried that their ass is in danger grouping up with whats left of Mercs carebear alliance.

I think only factions that could moan about crabear alliances are factions with no allies. Like Nords, Chaos or LLJK.
But instead all factions who involved in alliances moan and complain about alliances.

 :D
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 07, 2011, 03:45:16 pm
funny observation

One crabebear alliance started by mercs to kill "another" carebear alliance is unhappy because their carebear alliance failed to develop on the map. And then even split up and at war with eachother.
Then NA (FCC) carebear alliance, worried that their ass is in danger grouping up with whats left of Mercs carebear alliance.

I think only factions that could moan about crabear alliances are factions with no allies. Like Nords, Chaos or LLJK.
But instead all factions who involved in alliances moan and complain about alliances.

 :D

Except your alliance is 10x the size of any other alliance.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Keshian on December 07, 2011, 04:04:27 pm
Except your alliance is 10x the size of any other alliance.

EXACTLY.  Thats what makes it carebear.  Every neighbor is your ally, hell all the neighbors of your neighbors are allies, all but 2-3 EU fiefs are allied with you.  Thats carebearing.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Nebun on December 07, 2011, 05:24:25 pm
x10????
damn if there would be so much, strategus would end in first week, so if u all put together your armies, like Mercs 4.5k, and lets assume all ur other factions can put something similer on the table, same or less. it would end up in about 30k minimum, this means that west faction between themselves should have about 300k army? :)) if so FCC why u still got land on the map?

this is just plain propaganda

not to mention that only about half of western factions active, and half of players of active clans playing other games right now :)
what do u have to moan about kesh?
When you leave your own carebear alliance and stay as single faction I will listen to everything u got to say about alliances :) But for now its just a lot of hypocrite bullshit

Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Jarlek on December 07, 2011, 07:17:25 pm
x10????
damn if there would be so much, strategus would end in first week, so if u all put together your armies, like Mercs 4.5k, and lets assume all ur other factions can put something similer on the table, same or less. it would end up in about 30k minimum, this means that west faction between themselves should have about 300k army? :)) if so FCC why u still got land on the map?

this is just plain propaganda

not to mention that only about half of western factions active, and half of players of active clans playing other games right now :)
what do u have to moan about kesh?
When you leave your own carebear alliance and stay as single faction I will listen to everything u got to say about alliances :) But for now its just a lot of hypocrite bullshit
Burn!
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Keshian on December 07, 2011, 07:20:22 pm
x10????
damn if there would be so much, strategus would end in first week, so if u all put together your armies, like Mercs 4.5k, and lets assume all ur other factions can put something similer on the table, same or less. it would end up in about 30k minimum, this means that west faction between themselves should have about 300k army? :)) if so FCC why u still got land on the map?

this is just plain propaganda

not to mention that only about half of western factions active, and half of players of active clans playing other games right now :)
what do u have to moan about kesh?
When you leave your own carebear alliance and stay as single faction I will listen to everything u got to say about alliances :) But for now its just a lot of hypocrite bullshit

10x as many players, and frankly its proabbly a rough estimate from him - more like 7.5x, which is still kind of ridiculous.  Mercs have 4.5K army with as few playeers as they have??  Thats really impressive.  But with 80% of EU and 20-25% in your circle-jerk alliance, yes, you have probably about 7.5x as many players as the next biggest alliance on the map, which is boring to say the least.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Nebun on December 07, 2011, 07:53:27 pm
you are really wrong about numbers of players kesh too, even 7.5x is not even close

U just trying to make it look like there is a lot more against you then there really are.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Vibe on December 07, 2011, 08:02:02 pm
you are really wrong about numbers of players kesh too, even 7.5x is not even close

U just trying to make it look like there is a lot more against you then there really are.

Dude, even if its 2x the size it's still a clear advantage. Anyway, I'm not going to discuss about this anymore even, it's obvious strat favours player numbers and you guys got way more player numbers than any other alliance.

Pointless to go over the same facts, I'll just wait for devs to change strat (if they will).
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Paul on December 07, 2011, 08:05:16 pm
Kesh pulling numbers out of his ass again.  :D
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Kalp on December 07, 2011, 08:12:28 pm
Quote
Pointless to go over the same facts, I'll just wait for devs to change strat (if they will).
Don't worry. We will be there  :twisted:

Kesh pulling numbers out of his ass again.  :D
LOL
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Gnjus on December 07, 2011, 08:16:57 pm
Keshian's asshole:

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Nebun on December 07, 2011, 08:38:27 pm
Vibe - not x2 even.

another funny storry is:
Byzantium from the begning of the strat looked for allies to group up and attack former factions of UIF. Didn't work so good and well, until mercs got thereatend by Union and decided they need someone for protection, spread out nice story about UIF killing everyone and all other EU factions joined them willingly, except for Wolves and Templars, they had their own alliance and been forced into joining Anti Uif coalition. Their first target was druzhina :)) and then the rest of former UIF factions.

now if u plan to set up huge alliance and they know about it, would they sit and when when u come for them and kill 1 by 1 :) this just gets other factions closer together, since they all threatened. No, they will strat grouping up, just what u doing now by setting up new NA + EU alliance :) And there isn't anything wrong with it, everyone doest whatever they can.
Its a game of who will bring more friends :))) I remember how many friends you brought against us in strat 2, x3 more then us in troop count. Didn't see u suffer from making that choice. :)) then why crying now?

btw, its totally down to your "posting on forum" + "communication" skills Kesh, that about half the map wants to wipe FCC of the map, fighting on shitty ping on NA servers in the mornings. :))) Nobody cared about you on your NA part of the map until u started posting on forum, insulting people and making up increadable stories.
Telling that western factions got x10 more players is just shows the level of ur exaggeration on everything you post.

Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: BADPLAYERold on December 07, 2011, 09:02:41 pm
btw, its totally down to your "posting on forum" + "communication" skills Kesh, that about half the map wants to wipe FCC of the map, fighting on shitty ping on NA servers in the mornings. :))) Nobody cared about you on your NA part of the map until u started posting on forum, insulting people and making up increadable stories.

+1
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Keshian on December 07, 2011, 10:49:26 pm
lol, sure nebun sure.  And Grey Order making comments about taking Jelbegi, you invading our lands and 22nd saying the same LONG LONG ago early in Strategus wa just pre-emptive strike against my posting.  Seriously Nebun you lie more than any diplomat I know of any clan.  You have been making comments about HRE and Fallen as well for ages, the Mercs and now suddenly its because of what they are posting now.  Im sure your little butt buddies will + your post and - my post, but you have been feeding troops, equipment, and gold for ages adn talking about attacking people and most of our reactions have been to you and your buttbuddy allies comments about attacking us and other NA  clans.  You should look at your own postings first, not my ones reacting to yours.

P.S. You and your circle-jerk friends need overwhelming odds in your favor before attacking (basis for your entire carebear alliance) and I am sure you are going to repeat it because unlike FCC which thrives on fighting no matter the odds, you are far far too cowardly to ever try something like that (and its a fricken video game and you can't take chances??  how sad)

You talk so big because as soon as you start losing you have the rest of your mega-alliance get involved and save your ass (as soon as you started losing in Strat 2.0 - grey order, 22nd both started to get involved, 22nd sending you troops and Grey order marching 20K troops towards HRE).  Your alliance just happens to make up 80% of EU 20% of NA and is 7.5x the size of any other alliance in the game in numbe of players.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Tot. on December 07, 2011, 11:00:32 pm
I really don't see why any of you keep trying to have a conversation with this F5 forum barker.

Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Slantedfloors on December 07, 2011, 11:34:56 pm
I think the absolute worst thing about this is that Strategus actually does have a very large metagaming problem (in that nearly all the EU clans actually are allied, or will otherwise not attack each other), but that any attempt to discuss it rationally has been poisoned by Kesh's incessant rantings.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Matey on December 08, 2011, 12:08:18 am
are you implying that kesh doesnt present information in a rational and calm manner?
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Xant on December 08, 2011, 12:12:54 am
are you implying that kesh doesnt present information in a rational and calm manner?

Breaking news! More at eleven!
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Nebun on December 08, 2011, 12:14:26 am
Kesh 7.5x bigger :)) again :)) make it 100x then
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 08, 2011, 12:26:51 am
Good job shitting up a perfectly good thread about boring strategus politics.
Title: Re: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?
Post by: Tristan on December 08, 2011, 01:03:00 am
Good job shitting up a perfectly good thread about boring strategus politics.

Yup, it went dead around page 6. Last good suggestions came around there.