cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Kajia on October 30, 2011, 03:07:09 am

Title: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Kajia on October 30, 2011, 03:07:09 am
Dear Devs,
I am Kajia, the guy with the pen tablet, who painted the loadings screens.
And this below is a text. A loooong one. Brutal. And no pics, got no time for that.

tl;dr version would be like a skip to part II, but it doesn't help much, you'll miss some.

But if you take your time and read this, I might even thank you for it, and if you consider I wrote this because I believe in you, you lovely lazy devs, you really should, I'd say.
If I spend my time in writing this when I have my head full of study stuff, then I obviously missed some gaming time! I sacrificed myself! So that's maybe a reason for you to at least read it, or not?


part I

(click to show/hide)

part II - My theory how Strat could work out

(click to show/hide)

part III -You Know

(click to show/hide)

part IV - Dream (couldn't find a title more boring than that)

(click to show/hide)

part V and end

(click to show/hide)

Take care, guys!
Kajia, the mad ... guy

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Jarlek on October 30, 2011, 04:18:03 am
A good and solid text. I've actually asked myself the same question. What DOES team donkey want cRPG and Strat to be? They can't have a "balanced" everyone have a chance against everyone game they balance cRPG to, while still making strat a "realistic team based" game.

I've also thought along the lines of your suggestion and I agree to all of them. Got a thing or two to add about shields, but I'm gonna do that tomorrow, maybe. Too tired now.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 30, 2011, 05:47:22 am
Gold star for effort!
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Earthdforce on October 30, 2011, 05:59:02 am
I like it, and I want you to continue writing!
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on October 30, 2011, 06:37:57 am
I would really like to know what the donkey want's SirPig to be. Purely out of interest, I don't want to rage about the lack of x or y, but I really would like to know what the grand vision is or even if there is one at all.

It seems like a lot of effort has gone into something that is completely free and has earned the dev team =squate=all and for that I doff my hat. This mod has given M&B some serious legs, talesworld should send you guys a thank you letter and free copies of M&B2 fo sho.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: zagibu on October 31, 2011, 03:23:31 am
I am not against more "realism" and more advantages/disadvantages of weapons, however, it isn't currently the case that every "class" has a chance against every other "class". If player skill is equal, an archer will always lose against a shielder. A shielder will always lose against a rider. A rider will always lose against a spearman. A spearman (without shield) will always lose against an archer.

Luck and player skill can change this, of course. Hybrids can, too. But to say that you have a chance against every opponent, no matter your stats and equipment, is certainly wrong.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Dezilagel on October 31, 2011, 04:07:12 am
Good read, but I do not agree with your ideas.

One of the wonders of c-rpg is that you do have so many different effective builds/weapons. Should dueling be restricted to bastard swords only? I'd tire in five minutes.

One of the worst things I know is when I'm "autofucked", that is the situations where I'm going to lose whatever happens simply because my/my enemies choice of gear/stats.

Brought a polearm? Autofucked in a 1v1. Brought a horse? Can't touch that spearman. Is that really what we want c-rpg to look like?

I say the multitude of weapons we have now is far more realistic than some Hollywood-style "draw yonder rapier and we'll have le duel in a sunset".

It's refreshing to see a bunch of rag-tag people desperately trying to make the best use of whatever they got against the enemy, instead of the knights in shining armor fighting in perfect formations that you see in so many other medieval-styled games.

And to be honest, this is how I envision medieval fighting. Bands loosely strung together, the men fighting with whatever they brought from home in brutal chaotic skirmishes.

You could argue that teamplay needs a bigger role yes, but try banding together with a few friends on ts and you'll see how easy it is to just roll entire servers by yourselves, and that is with some casual teamplay from 5-10 guys.

This is just imo ofc.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Xant on October 31, 2011, 04:23:50 am
Agreed with Dezi, also..

Quote
I think making it more realistic in a radical way, meaning a small hammer can not beat a long axe/twohander/shielder
I don't think that'd be more realistic - it's not the weapons doing the fighting, it's the people using those weapons. Right now you're at a huge disadvantage fighting a "proper" weapon with a small hammer, but you can still win if you're good. As it should be, IMO.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Kajia on October 31, 2011, 02:06:51 pm
I am not against more "realism" and more advantages/disadvantages of weapons, however, it isn't currently the case that every "class" has a chance against every other "class". If player skill is equal, an archer will always lose against a shielder. A shielder will always lose against a rider. A rider will always lose against a spearman. A spearman (without shield) will always lose against an archer.

Luck and player skill can change this, of course. Hybrids can, too. But to say that you have a chance against every opponent, no matter your stats and equipment, is certainly wrong.

Player skill is never equal, and you can't know what's going to happen in any situation, that's luck. And that means tension of course. We need that. But because of that uncertainty, even a not so good player, me for example, sometimes tries to attack another player for many different reasons. Because I seek a challenge, or because he made a fault earlier and seems weaker than he is, or he was hurt, or he's getting teamed, or for social reasons 'cause I don't like him, or he beat me before and I want to try my luck again.
You never know how a fight turns out, there are still people behind that mask, one can not know - and therefore you can always at least try. There IS a chance. Always.

After player skill we have like three basic components that decide who wins a 1on1. We have class, equipment and level. Right now, as you say, "it's not the weapons doing the fighting, it's the people using those weapons", and the best player wins. I think I understood that already. cRPG is a game that encourages lone running, IF your are a good player. And good player will do it, and others try it too, because good players succeed. And the teamplay is broken, that's how I see it. Look at the siege servers. I have never seen a shieldwall there, no hammer/pike combinations in group fights. Nothing like that.
I KNOW! "they don't have proper communications", "there are only newbs playing". That kind of arguments. I counter: that's why I want more realism, because the mediocre gamer will die right away if he tries to confront any class his class isn't meant to beat.
... and then we will have teamplay without any doubt. People. will. learn.

As I see it, you all want to be the best - the best killers that is, but only a handful can make it.
In short: I imagine a game where not the kill-skill of a single player decides, but the team-spirit, the social skills, the thinking before action.
I absolutely believe, that this is much more rewarding for the majority of our players, than the ranking after our KDR.

Now, I guess cRPG will probably stay as it is, because it is kind of accessible. Not because of the mechanics, but because of the ego-driven 'be the best' state of mind. No offense, it's just a fact, and I feel that too. Thats why I wrote this:
(...) a nice and seemingly working game like a cRPG-ish Strategus (ofc, I don't want cRPG, as 1 of 2, to change, because some of the players won't play something like that mentioned above). (...)
But still ... I am proud of my idea, I don't hide it.

One of the wonders of c-rpg is that you do have so many different effective builds/weapons. Should dueling be restricted to bastard swords only? I'd tire in five minutes.
I said 'ruled' by swords, because they would be the most effective in blocking, and I always take a sword when I want to duel someone without a shield. Especially when I'm low on HP.

One of the worst things I know is when I'm "autofucked", that is the situations where I'm going to lose whatever happens simply because my/my enemies choice of gear/stats.
Brought a polearm? Autofucked in a 1v1. Brought a horse? Can't touch that spearman. Is that really what we want c-rpg to look like?
Yes, it is how I want cRPG to look like, or at least Strat-battles. And you exaggerate. Polearm always beats me, not matter how hard I try. And I've seen many many horsemen, that did attack pikemen, that is what I mean: most players are not reasonable, because it might work.
What I miss is the rock-paper-scissors mechanics.

I say the multitude of weapons we have now is far more realistic than some Hollywood-style "draw yonder rapier and we'll have le duel in a sunset".
It's refreshing to see a bunch of rag-tag people desperately trying to make the best use of whatever they got against the enemy, instead of the knights in shining armor fighting in perfect formations that you see in so many other medieval-styled games.
And to be honest, this is how I envision medieval fighting. Bands loosely strung together, the men fighting with whatever they brought from home in brutal chaotic skirmishes.
Yeah right. I didn't say anything about all people wear shiny armor and perfect formations ... ; loose bands, chaotic skirmishes are a tactic, not impossible with what I proposed, not at all.
So yes. It is a nice multitude of weapons we have here.

You could argue that teamplay needs a bigger role yes, but try banding together with a few friends on ts and you'll see how easy it is to just roll entire servers by yourselves, and that is with some casual teamplay from 5-10 guys.
read above.


I don't think that'd be more realistic - it's not the weapons doing the fighting, it's the people using those weapons. Right now you're at a huge disadvantage fighting a "proper" weapon with a small hammer, but you can still win if you're good. As it should be, IMO.
You would be able to win if you're superiour. But you wouldn't try if you're not. And therefore not always die and be frustrated, it's more rewarding for all, more fun.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Jarlek on October 31, 2011, 02:47:25 pm
I love Kaija! He has the same vision for strat as me :D
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Gorath on October 31, 2011, 04:07:14 pm
As I see it, you all want to be the best - the best killers that is, but only a handful can make it.
In short: I imagine a game where not the kill-skill of a single player decides, but the team-spirit, the social skills, the thinking before action.
I absolutely believe, that this is much more rewarding for the majority of our players, than the ranking after our KDR.

What I miss is the rock-paper-scissors mechanics.

While you wrote your ideas out eloquently, and I applaud you for it, my reaction to these lines of thinking when it comes to game balance is just "ew".  Rock-paper-scissors balancing is the most trite, cop-out lame balance there is for PvP games as evident in any MMO.  Oh, you brought the wrong class, tough shit you're fucked.  Oh, the other team is rogue-mage-priest.  Guess you lose this match unless they start fucking around and make 100 mistakes and you play flawlessly.

Personally, and this is nothing against you, I hope your vision never comes to fruition.  I would hate to play a skill-based PvP game where I absolutely HAVE to rely on the community in order to succeed vs X, Y or Z.  The vision you proposed is too far into deep socialistic "cog in the machine" style play for my taste.  I'm all for teamwork, and I see what you say you don't see all the time.  Crutch-through + pike working together, shield walls forming up for a moment or two to regroup etc.  Just not by pubbies.  Working as intended imo.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: DrKronic on October 31, 2011, 04:29:18 pm
Read enough to see bad ideas, kill skills are the most important, why dumb down the "twitch" part of the game, CAREBEARz, I see the upper class forum twits liked it, fail ideas but nice high school writing level, u get a D

Hell one of the only redeeming qualities in mount and blade MP (of any kind)  is that a gamers "twitch" reactions (oft referried as skills) are actually important and can mean an elite player can take on many goraths(internet jargon for loser/scrub)

Alot of what the devs have done has been to mitigate the effect of "skill" to buff the zerg armor change most obviously did that I.e stagger land)

Every change in that direction takes away from the actual fun of this game( for the individual, I guess for a large clan Zerg improvements are looked on favorable)

PS there are plenty of games that purely revolve around social nutcupping, take these forums or Farmville etc
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Kajia on October 31, 2011, 07:15:30 pm
While you wrote your ideas out eloquently, and I applaud you for it, my reaction to these lines of thinking when it comes to game balance is just "ew".  Rock-paper-scissors balancing is the most trite, cop-out lame balance there is for PvP games as evident in any MMO.  Oh, you brought the wrong class, tough shit you're fucked.  Oh, the other team is rogue-mage-priest.  Guess you lose this match unless they start fucking around and make 100 mistakes and you play flawlessly.
I didn't say rock paper scissors means simplicity right away. You have read my text, the mechanics I wrote out were much more difficile than this - I just have to make them easy to understand for people. It's not rock beats scissor, beats paper, beats rock. It's a metaphor. I DON'T want to the game to be trite and lame, or 'easier'. I want to make it more realistic, because with that, common sense has a chance to evolve. As I see it, realism means more logical behaviour, because you understand why that pike is dangerous, and sure wouldn't attack that tincan and his huge flamberge without proper help and a good can opener.


Read enough to see bad ideas, kill skills are the most important, why dumb down the "twitch" part of the game, CAREBEARz, I see the upper class forum twits liked it, fail ideas but nice high school writing level, u get a D
I only read "I don't like your face".

Hell one of the only redeeming qualities in mount and blade MP (of any kind)  is that a gamers "twitch" reactions (oft referried as skills) are actually important and can mean an elite player can take on many goraths(internet jargon for loser/scrub)
Alot of what the devs have done has been to mitigate the effect of "skill" to buff the zerg armor change most obviously did that I.e stagger land)
Every change in that direction takes away from the actual fun of this game( for the individual, I guess for a large clan Zerg improvements are looked on favorable)
An elite player can do so even in with the changes I had in mind. Player skill wouldn't be nerfed.

Every change in that direction takes away from the actual fun of this game( for the individual, I guess for a large clan Zerg improvements are looked on favorable)
Isn't every individual a part of some group? When the group wins, you win, because you played your role.
And if you go your own way, and succeed even if it's against all odds, your win will be epic.
Right now it is normal to be against multiple players at once.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 31, 2011, 08:38:54 pm
Wait, this forum now has upperclass posters? We have a class system now besides peasants, mods, game admins and overlords?

When did this happen?
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: DrKronic on October 31, 2011, 09:20:15 pm
Wait, this forum now has upperclass posters? We have a class system now besides peasants, mods, game admins and overlords?

When did this happen?

It was a obscure reference to a Monty Python skit about a race for "upper class twit of the year"

Iirc (I won't) they took a bunch of aristocratic Dumbo ands whichever one managed to not kill himself through a number of challenges was crowned winner and summarily executed

Tears u are part of the Oligarchs of cRPG,we the 99% are gonna come and "occupy" you, or something

Oh yea good writing does not make bad ideas any better, but it does make me able to read about them(sadly)

Posting from a smartphone means typos happen, live with it
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Gorath on November 01, 2011, 04:52:46 am
I only read "I don't like your face".

Ignore Kronic, he's an inbred moron and always will be.  You know the two yokels from deliverence?  Yeah he makes them look like proper british scholars.

Anyways, I think we have a good balance now for the most part in the game between allowing skilled solo fighters success, and rewarding team based play.  Other than a few inherent issues with the base game itself, and a few the devs had exacerbated with good intentions (IE:  Derp stabbing), overall class balance is pretty good.  Sure we can run around like chickens with our heads cut off and rambo it:  IE- pub server pub battles.  However in Strat, and when a clan gets put together, teamwork and cohesion account for quite a bit.  Sure it's still fairly ragtag, but that's still the fault of the game itself really.  There's no real way to keep a SOLID formation, only loose ones due to different speeds of characters and lag between they all actually press the W key.  You can't really match pace with anyone like you can IRL.

I did read what you wrote, and I do understand your overall point I still disagree with trying to make sweeping changes to mechanics and class balance in order to "force" teamwork.  Which is essentially what your idea gets to in a roundabout way.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Xant on November 01, 2011, 05:29:57 am
Ignore Kronic, he's an inbred moron and always will be.

Goddamnit, I was hoping to find a cure for being inbred.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: MrShovelFace on November 01, 2011, 07:19:17 am
you earn the

ahem..

Shovels Golden Medal For Well Typed Threads That Shovel Can't Find A Way To Troll
issued by the SGMFWTTTSCFAWTT Association
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Skysong on November 01, 2011, 10:16:50 pm
So much effort and good writing but it's more like total war style+your phantasy than realism. ( i can't tell if crpg needs more realism at all)
Still i think devs might use some of your suggestions to improve combat for strategus.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: ArchonAlarion on November 03, 2011, 05:16:59 pm
I love Kaija! He has the same vision for strat as me :D

Same. I  almost completely agree with him. Realism begets team play and that's what sets m&b apart. Rock paper scissors is the worst btw; disintegrates games.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Remy on November 03, 2011, 05:23:02 pm
I actually don't think that realism necessarily results in more teamwork.

For an example why go look at an Arma II PvP mission or even Red Orchestra. Sure things are slightly more realistic than in CoD or such, but in general it is the same mindless zerg with occasional spattering of teamwork by organized players(mostly clans).

Balance is to me far more important than realism, if the classes and weapons are well balanced you have fairly good game play and over time you can have good teamwork.

However, I think a key aspect of M&B has always been that in the end skill prevails, if suddenly certain classes were essentially invulnerable to others, I think it would be completely boring. (Such as cavalry being unstoppable by everything except pike and ranged, archers being defenseless at close range against infantry, etc).
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: ArchonAlarion on November 03, 2011, 05:29:04 pm
I'm re-posting this because i don't feel like re-typing it.

(click to show/hide)

Basically, I'm just saying that until the final environmental conditions of the game are established, it is impossible to balance the tools, and even then you can only balance for one strata/variable within the many kinds of environments. It is better to go with realism and allow players to choose their environment rather than have the tools determine the environment so to maintain the balance.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Remy on November 03, 2011, 05:46:35 pm
Basically, I'm just saying that until the final environmental conditions of the game are established, it is impossible to balance the tools, and even then you can only balance for one strata/variable within the many kinds of environments. It is better to go with realism and allow players to choose their environment rather than have the tools determine the environment so to maintain the balance.

In turn, I am merely proposing that realism in and of itself does not create more teamwork nor does it result in necessarily better or more interesting gameplay.  :wink:
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Meow on November 03, 2011, 05:57:19 pm
tl;dr but i have zero impact on this stuff anyhow.

Going to +1 it though to show my appreciation :mrgreen:

Also i like your pics.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: Kajia on November 03, 2011, 11:45:33 pm
In turn, I am merely proposing that realism in and of itself does not create more teamwork nor does it result in necessarily better or more interesting gameplay.  :wink:
well, what exactly are your arguments for that? I mean you think it would be completely boring, but why?
You can't attack anyone because of clear disadvantages, but I think it would be absolutely rewarding, because you feel the value of your class in return. Other people will respect that, because people will know that they need you.

I'm re-posting this because i don't feel like re-typing it.

(click to show/hide)

Basically, I'm just saying that until the final environmental conditions of the game are established, it is impossible to balance the tools, and even then you can only balance for one strata/variable within the many kinds of environments. It is better to go with realism and allow players to choose their environment rather than have the tools determine the environment so to maintain the balance.

I think you're pretty much right.
But what you said kinda assured me of my idea not fitting to cRPG, but Strategus. Or it depends on good 'class-based' team-balance, however that would work, idk, because you're right with that there's know real 'class'. In Strat you can be sure, that the team knows what kind of weapon they use and how effective teamplay should look like. That's kinda hard in cRPG, but I still believe people would learn, as I said.
Never underestimate players, for we are adaptive!
Title: Re: Open letter to the Devs
Post by: BD_SUPERBEAST on November 05, 2011, 08:13:16 am
Its not the game what its not letting people teamplay, its people themselves. Anyway we all play for fun and sometimes ure just too tired or thiking in other things to pay more attention than the minimum, so if u want teamplay, look for a team to do so. U can do it on battle or siege servers with ur own clan mates,but....obviously organizing 50 random people to do something at the same time its not that easy.

 Game its ok as it is. Of course it can be improved,  but not totally changing what makes the game itself interesting.