Open letter to the Devs

[Gorath]

I only read "I don't like your face".

Ignore Kronic, he's an inbred moron and always will be.  You know the two yokels from deliverence?  Yeah he makes them look like proper british scholars.

Anyways, I think we have a good balance now for the most part in the game between allowing skilled solo fighters success, and rewarding team based play.  Other than a few inherent issues with the base game itself, and a few the devs had exacerbated with good intentions (IE:  Derp stabbing), overall class balance is pretty good.  Sure we can run around like chickens with our heads cut off and rambo it:  IE- pub server pub battles.  However in Strat, and when a clan gets put together, teamwork and cohesion account for quite a bit.  Sure it's still fairly ragtag, but that's still the fault of the game itself really.  There's no real way to keep a SOLID formation, only loose ones due to different speeds of characters and lag between they all actually press the W key.  You can't really match pace with anyone like you can IRL.

I did read what you wrote, and I do understand your overall point I still disagree with trying to make sweeping changes to mechanics and class balance in order to "force" teamwork.  Which is essentially what your idea gets to in a roundabout way.

[Xant]

Ignore Kronic, he's an inbred moron and always will be.

Goddamnit, I was hoping to find a cure for being inbred.

[MrShovelFace]

you earn the

ahem..

Shovels Golden Medal For Well Typed Threads That Shovel Can't Find A Way To Troll
issued by the SGMFWTTTSCFAWTT Association

[Skysong]

So much effort and good writing but it's more like total war style+your phantasy than realism. ( i can't tell if crpg needs more realism at all)
Still i think devs might use some of your suggestions to improve combat for strategus.

[ArchonAlarion]

I love Kaija! He has the same vision for strat as me

Same. I  almost completely agree with him. Realism begets team play and that's what sets m&b apart. Rock paper scissors is the worst btw; disintegrates games.

[Remy]

I actually don't think that realism necessarily results in more teamwork.

For an example why go look at an Arma II PvP mission or even Red Orchestra. Sure things are slightly more realistic than in CoD or such, but in general it is the same mindless zerg with occasional spattering of teamwork by organized players(mostly clans).

Balance is to me far more important than realism, if the classes and weapons are well balanced you have fairly good game play and over time you can have good teamwork.

However, I think a key aspect of M&B has always been that in the end skill prevails, if suddenly certain classes were essentially invulnerable to others, I think it would be completely boring. (Such as cavalry being unstoppable by everything except pike and ranged, archers being defenseless at close range against infantry, etc).

[ArchonAlarion]

I'm re-posting this because i don't feel like re-typing it.

(click to show/hide)

Classes are an illusion.

There are people and tools. People pick the tools that are most useful within a certain context. Overtime this creates popular combinations of tools.

The combinations that are not "naturally" (modeled, labeled, supposedly such and such) useful in a given situation or many situations should not be functionally distorted to perform equally as well as the proper tools.

They will only be distorted to mimic the correct tools functionally and lose their original utility.

When a situation rolls around in which the generally non-useful combinations are actually useful, the distortions imposed upon them will make them ineffective, thus creating a poverty of effective means to accomplish some goal.

In cRPG, the  functionality of different items, weapons, and armor will be be reduced to a bland homogeneity, so that any combination can be equally effective under the average environmental conditions, ie. a small, slightly hilly village (or similarly contoured landscape) with about 50 teammates and 50 enemies. Included in this environment is the gold/xp economy and relevant leveling decisions. Also included is the average players skill, ping, and goals within the game (to get kills, gain gold, help teammates, be a goofball, etc.)

Weapons that excel in such conditions naturally will be nerfed, weapons that do no not will be buffed.

When the environment changes enough (new maps, larger maps, larger battles, smaller battles, different player attitudes) the "balance" will crack, crumble, and dissolve.

 

This is why "perfect" balance is futile given the diversity and complexity of variables within cRPG as well as its potential for a vast number of different environmental conditions. Strategus is an example of a way that the developers have made the environment even more diverse.

The game will be balanced so long as the environment, in which the combinations of tools (under the control of players) interact, is kept stagnant.

Players concerned about balance will avoid the non-average battles, where the balance has broken down and certain combination are more effective than others (The duel server, for instance). It's rational to do so.

Basically, I'm just saying that until the final environmental conditions of the game are established, it is impossible to balance the tools, and even then you can only balance for one strata/variable within the many kinds of environments. It is better to go with realism and allow players to choose their environment rather than have the tools determine the environment so to maintain the balance.

[Remy]

Basically, I'm just saying that until the final environmental conditions of the game are established, it is impossible to balance the tools, and even then you can only balance for one strata/variable within the many kinds of environments. It is better to go with realism and allow players to choose their environment rather than have the tools determine the environment so to maintain the balance.

In turn, I am merely proposing that realism in and of itself does not create more teamwork nor does it result in necessarily better or more interesting gameplay. 

[Meow]

tl;dr but i have zero impact on this stuff anyhow.

Going to +1 it though to show my appreciation

Also i like your pics.

[Kajia]

In turn, I am merely proposing that realism in and of itself does not create more teamwork nor does it result in necessarily better or more interesting gameplay. 

well, what exactly are your arguments for that? I mean you think it would be completely boring, but why?
You can't attack anyone because of clear disadvantages, but I think it would be absolutely rewarding, because you feel the value of your class in return. Other people will respect that, because people will know that they need you.

I'm re-posting this because i don't feel like re-typing it.

(click to show/hide)

Classes are an illusion.

There are people and tools. People pick the tools that are most useful within a certain context. Overtime this creates popular combinations of tools.

The combinations that are not "naturally" (modeled, labeled, supposedly such and such) useful in a given situation or many situations should not be functionally distorted to perform equally as well as the proper tools.

They will only be distorted to mimic the correct tools functionally and lose their original utility.

When a situation rolls around in which the generally non-useful combinations are actually useful, the distortions imposed upon them will make them ineffective, thus creating a poverty of effective means to accomplish some goal.

In cRPG, the  functionality of different items, weapons, and armor will be be reduced to a bland homogeneity, so that any combination can be equally effective under the average environmental conditions, ie. a small, slightly hilly village (or similarly contoured landscape) with about 50 teammates and 50 enemies. Included in this environment is the gold/xp economy and relevant leveling decisions. Also included is the average players skill, ping, and goals within the game (to get kills, gain gold, help teammates, be a goofball, etc.)

Weapons that excel in such conditions naturally will be nerfed, weapons that do no not will be buffed.

When the environment changes enough (new maps, larger maps, larger battles, smaller battles, different player attitudes) the "balance" will crack, crumble, and dissolve.

 

This is why "perfect" balance is futile given the diversity and complexity of variables within cRPG as well as its potential for a vast number of different environmental conditions. Strategus is an example of a way that the developers have made the environment even more diverse.

The game will be balanced so long as the environment, in which the combinations of tools (under the control of players) interact, is kept stagnant.

Players concerned about balance will avoid the non-average battles, where the balance has broken down and certain combination are more effective than others (The duel server, for instance). It's rational to do so.

Basically, I'm just saying that until the final environmental conditions of the game are established, it is impossible to balance the tools, and even then you can only balance for one strata/variable within the many kinds of environments. It is better to go with realism and allow players to choose their environment rather than have the tools determine the environment so to maintain the balance.

I think you're pretty much right.
But what you said kinda assured me of my idea not fitting to cRPG, but Strategus. Or it depends on good 'class-based' team-balance, however that would work, idk, because you're right with that there's know real 'class'. In Strat you can be sure, that the team knows what kind of weapon they use and how effective teamplay should look like. That's kinda hard in cRPG, but I still believe people would learn, as I said.
Never underestimate players, for we are adaptive!

[BD_SUPERBEAST]

Its not the game what its not letting people teamplay, its people themselves. Anyway we all play for fun and sometimes ure just too tired or thiking in other things to pay more attention than the minimum, so if u want teamplay, look for a team to do so. U can do it on battle or siege servers with ur own clan mates,but....obviously organizing 50 random people to do something at the same time its not that easy.

 Game its ok as it is. Of course it can be improved,  but not totally changing what makes the game itself interesting.