cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Tot. on October 09, 2011, 03:02:56 pm

Title: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Tot. on October 09, 2011, 03:02:56 pm
Make it 2h proficiency. Its really nice addition but hardly anyone uses it. Now, with collision changes, its even more useful, but its not possible to have both enough 2h wpfs to be competetive against dedicated 2-handers and enough wpfs in polearms to make it useful.

Original thread in suggestions (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,16524.0.html)

PS. I recently realized some people dont even know that there's such thing as halfswording. It's an alternate mode for two handed swords where your guy changes the grip on the sword to something like this:

(click to show/hide)

It has much shorter range, is slower but you are able to use your sword for close range thrusting. Useful pretty much only in tight corridors and such.

Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Jarlek on October 09, 2011, 03:12:23 pm
First of all. You do know you would lose the "rear horses" part? Just so you are clear of that.


Now about the suggestion:
First of all, I don't think it is a good idea to do this. It would make 2handers even better at clusterfuck fighting then they are now, without them having to use wpf in something else. The few 2h/pole hybrids I've seen that switches between normal/halfsword mode are very good already and I can't think of how annoying it would be if they still had 150-ish wpf in both modes.

Secondly, there was also a suggestion for making some polearms able to switch to the 2h animations while still having polearms wpf (but unbalanced) and there was a lot of complaining about that. I don't think they should do this without doing it to both 2h and polearms.

Finally, I thought the different wpfs was meant to represent the different "fighting" styles i.e. how you swing and hold the weapon. The polearm axes and the glaive and LHB and the like are all technically 2h weapons, they are just held further in and not at the hilt which 2hs are. So wouldn't it go against the system of "this is how i know how to fight" that wpf does? Although this is a realism argument so it's not that important anyway.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Tot. on October 09, 2011, 03:17:07 pm
First of all, I don't think it is a good idea to do this. It would make 2handers even better at clusterfuck fighting then they are now

You clearly havent used any sort of long weapon for a bit. Currently longer two handed swords get stuck on completely everything around you (and behind you, when doing overheads).
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Jarlek on October 09, 2011, 03:26:43 pm
You clearly havent used any sort of long weapon for a bit. Currently longer two handed swords get stuck on completely everything around you (and behind you, when doing overheads).
Actually I have. They are still very decent in big groups if you actually know how to swing.

And nice totally ignoring the rest of the thread. Fuck no if we are gonna discuss this like reasonable beings! Let's just reply to one single part of what someone posts!
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Fraemi on October 09, 2011, 03:35:02 pm
Horse rearing is completely useless for polearm mode since you have a much better bet at gravely injuring/killing the rider and his horse with a stab, not to mention you would get outreached.
It also doesn't make much sense why someone who dedicates his entire fighting training to 2h swords would be completely unable to use this technique competently, while someone who specializes in polearm weapons (say - a pikeman) would be more than proficient with it. Many people are using the too-strong-for-price mace very often is sieges or massive clusterfucks because it's a lot better than a GS in those, where halfswording should be almost intuitive - while it's far from effective.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Jarlek on October 09, 2011, 06:24:07 pm
Horse rearing is completely useless for polearm mode since you have a much better bet at gravely injuring/killing the rider and his horse with a stab, not to mention you would get outreached.
It also doesn't make much sense why someone who dedicates his entire fighting training to 2h swords would be completely unable to use this technique competently, while someone who specializes in polearm weapons (say - a pikeman) would be more than proficient with it. Many people are using the too-strong-for-price mace very often is sieges or massive clusterfucks because it's a lot better than a GS in those, where halfswording should be almost intuitive - while it's far from effective.
True. But would it not be a bit too powerful to have both normal and halfswording for someone with 6 PS and 157 wpf in both? I say the fact that you have to spread your wpf to be be able to fully use a greatsword is a good thing.

Although I get your point from a gameplay point of view (polearm better than 2handers with a greatsword?) it makes sort of sense from a realism point of view (fighting style is similar as to axes and that kind of polearms), but realism shouldn't be what we should balance from.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Fraemi on October 09, 2011, 06:56:59 pm
I don't really think it would be op, it would still be rather weak and useful only for close quarters combat. It deals less dmg on swings, it has tremendously inferior reach to 2h mode, no overhead. The only advantages are - ever so slightly better for close quarters (and by close quarters I mean heavy clusterfucks, imagine the fight after siege ladder arriving at walls) and higher damage on stab, but I personally find the polearm stab a bit harder to work with slightly.

Even if it DID use 2h prof, I imagine it would still be inferior in 19/20 battle cases and personally I'd nearly never use it since even then overheads are a solid, high dmg standard to use with 2h anims in big fights, ofc halfswording doesn't have overheads and generally weaker attacks. It just feels completely pointless for me atm.
Also, guess why noone uses 2h weps as polearms - they make really shitty polearms.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Entaro on October 09, 2011, 09:19:37 pm
I don't really think it would be op, it would still be rather weak and useful only for close quarters combat. It deals less dmg on swings, it has tremendously inferior reach to 2h mode, no overhead. The only advantages are - ever so slightly better for close quarters (and by close quarters I mean heavy clusterfucks, imagine the fight after siege ladder arriving at walls) and higher damage on stab, but I personally find the polearm stab a bit harder to work with slightly.

Even if it DID use 2h prof, I imagine it would still be inferior in 19/20 battle cases and personally I'd nearly never use it since even then overheads are a solid, high dmg standard to use with 2h anims in big fights, ofc halfswording doesn't have overheads and generally weaker attacks. It just feels completely pointless for me atm.
Also, guess why noone uses 2h weps as polearms - they make really shitty polearms.

^

The reason it isn't the same logic as polearms getting 2H animations, is because polearms are already very long.  The swords loose a great deal of range when switching to the pole mode and get the stat penalty as well.  I am 2H cav so I actually have 100 wpf in polearms but still use the mode sparingly, only in close quarter clusterfuck situations.   Having played with it for awhile, it adds a litle bit of utility, but It's never been like turning on imba mode or some such, just gives you a bit more versatility.  Really no reason why it shouldn't use 2h wpf.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Teeth on October 09, 2011, 09:39:24 pm
The whole halfswording thing is ridiculous in my opinion. It gives polearm users even more versatility than they have now, they can use 2h weapons with decent efficiency by halfswording, can be useful in strategus. Apart from polearm users being able to use 2h swords halfswording is completely useless. Nobody uses it.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: HarunYahya on October 10, 2011, 12:13:09 am
This (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,14707.msg207293.html#msg207293)  was my suggestion about giving 2h mode for poleaxes but i think even if that happens,poleaxe on 2h mode should use 2h wpf.
Just same as this situation.
WPF=Your experience which is gained by fighting with same style.Half swording is very very different technique and it is somehow similar to polearm fighting techniques so it is %100 normal for it to use polearm WPF instead of 2h.
Its like you know how to drive a car so you want to pilot a plane with your car driving licence.
No from me.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Siiem on October 10, 2011, 12:42:20 am
Its like you know how to drive a car so you want to pilot a plane with your car driving licence.

I don't see how that comparison is valid... at all.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Slamz on October 10, 2011, 01:16:43 am
WPF=Your experience which is gained by fighting with same style.Half swording is very very different technique and it is somehow similar to polearm fighting techniques so it is %100 normal for it to use polearm WPF instead of 2h.

... Actually, you've convinced me.  I voted yes but if I could change it to no, I would.

I started to argue that we should do the same thing for all the weapons, because cRPG discourages hybrids so much that these secondary modes don't get any use.

But maybe that's not the point.

Should a person with a throwing axe be able to switch modes to use it as a 1H but still be able to use throwing axe skill?  That would be interesting.  Pure throwers could also melee decently just with all their points in throwing.  Should someone with a Fighting Axe (1H) be able to use it in secondary mode (2H) and still use 1H skill?  Should someone with a Long Sword (2h) be able to use it in secondary mode (1H) and still use 2H skill?


I think most people would say "no" to all of those.  Why should half-swording be an exception?
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Jarlek on October 10, 2011, 01:24:43 am
... Actually, you've convinced me.  I voted yes but if I could change it to no, I would.

I started to argue that we should do the same thing for all the weapons, because cRPG discourages hybrids so much that these secondary modes don't get any use.

But maybe that's not the point.

Should a person with a throwing axe be able to switch modes to use it as a 1H but still be able to use throwing axe skill?  That would be interesting.  Pure throwers could also melee decently just with all their points in throwing.  Should someone with a Fighting Axe (1H) be able to use it in secondary mode (2H) and still use 1H skill?  Should someone with a Long Sword (2h) be able to use it in secondary mode (1H) and still use 2H skill?


I think most people would say "no" to all of those.  Why should half-swording be an exception?
That's what happens when someone (kocik) comes and says what I've been trying to say in a way MUCH better explained than what I did :D
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Fraemi on October 10, 2011, 01:53:48 am
Using realism as a main argument is retarded and it's not like it's any major buff. It's probably the "Oh, no! Someone posted something that ever slightly buffs 2h, they surely should not!"
also lol at thinking poleaxes actually should get a 2h mode.

Edit: To not be as much as of a dick:

Its like you know how to drive a car so you want to pilot a plane with your car driving licence.

Do you think the difference between a pilot and a driver license is nearly similar to that of putting both hands in one place on a sword and then putting one hand a bit further? Halfswording is also something that any real "heavy 2h swordsman" would have learnt.
Not to mention that using realism as a basis for balance is and always will be - weak and baseless, realism would deem necesarry so many changes that the game would be unenjoyable. Fun is and should be basis for balance(ing).
The examples you gave are far more drastic than halfswording, which is basically a secondary/tertiary technique which would be almost necesarry for anyone who brings a really big sword (ex2h) to an actual battle - where space could be limited. Throwing requires obviously a completely different set of skill than slashing an axe, swinging an object with 1 and then 2 hands is also quite different.

Try not to read too deep into halfswording using same animations as polearms - it's that way for best representation. Using a 2h sword with a spread out grip is nothing alike to a pike or a glaive.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Tot. on October 10, 2011, 02:00:30 am
WPF=Your experience which is gained by fighting with same style.Half swording is very very different technique and it is somehow similar to polearm fighting techniques so it is %100 normal for it to use polearm WPF instead of 2h.
Its like you know how to drive a car so you want to pilot a plane with your car driving licence.
No from me.

1. Realism argument.
2.  So in your opinion in real life if a skilled swordsman is using his two handed sword with halfswording technique he is also experienced and proficient while using halberds, poleaxes and all other polearm weapons?  Since thats what comes out logically if your argument is valid.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Laufknoten on October 10, 2011, 02:30:51 am
Yes, because it makes sense.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: MrShine on October 10, 2011, 05:29:20 am
This (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,14707.msg207293.html#msg207293)  was my suggestion about giving 2h mode for poleaxes but i think even if that happens,poleaxe on 2h mode should use 2h wpf.
Just same as this situation.
WPF=Your experience which is gained by fighting with same style.Half swording is very very different technique and it is somehow similar to polearm fighting techniques so it is %100 normal for it to use polearm WPF instead of 2h.
Its like you know how to drive a car so you want to pilot a plane with your car driving licence.
No from me.

Thinking of it in a different way, suppose you are a master swordman... wouldn't you know how to use that sword in different ways?

Someone with high proficiency isn't going to be like WOAH I'VE NEVER HELD THIS WEAPON LIKE THIS BEFORE BWAAAA, they are going to be experienced in all forms of the weapon.

So I vote yes.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Tot. on October 10, 2011, 02:41:56 pm
Yes, because it makes sense.

Oh, it completely makes sense. Holding your sword in a bit different way clearly is more like using a halberd than using the mentioned sword normally.

Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: HarunYahya on October 10, 2011, 02:57:14 pm
1. Realism argument.
2.  So in your opinion in real life if a skilled swordsman is using his two handed sword with halfswording technique he is also experienced and proficient while using halberds, poleaxes and all other polearm weapons?  Since thats what comes out logically if your argument is valid.
1.Of course i base my suggestions to realism.Otherwise add lightsabers instead.
2.Basically yes halfswording attack and block tecniques are closer to poleaxe fight rather than great sword fights.Usage of every aspect of the weapon,stronger stabs,surprise attacks,über balanced and powerful slashes...

3.All i say is halfswording is completely different and requires different training than normal sword fighting.If you want to use it properly,you should learn the tecnique (WPF) first.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: HarunYahya on October 10, 2011, 03:02:38 pm
Thinking of it in a different way, suppose you are a master swordman... wouldn't you know how to use that sword in different ways?

Someone with high proficiency isn't going to be like WOAH I'VE NEVER HELD THIS WEAPON LIKE THIS BEFORE BWAAAA, they are going to be experienced in all forms of the weapon.

So I vote yes.
No lol
You start this game as a peasant not "master swordsman" . If you want to become a "master swordsman" just get high "weapon master" skill and pump your wpf to 2handed and polearm therefore you'll learn both regular sword technique and half-swording capiche ?
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Fraemi on October 10, 2011, 03:10:44 pm
1.Of course i base my suggestions to realism.Otherwise add lightsabers instead.
2.Basically yes halfswording attack and block tecniques are closer to poleaxe fight rather than great sword fights.Usage of every aspect of the weapon,stronger stabs,surprise attacks,über balanced and powerful slashes...

3.All i say is halfswording is completely different and requires different training than normal sword fighting.If you want to use it properly,you should learn the tecnique (WPF) first.

1. Realism is useful as far as defining the setting and very flexible limits, balancing the game BY realism is impossible and would make the mod just crap. Ex: Making bows realistic would break the game, making armour realistic would make tincans nigh invincible, blocking with a 1h against a heavy polearm/2h would mean your bones get shattered, blocking repeated blows behind a shield would make your bones break as well etc.
oh and lightsabers are already ingame and they actually work better than old weapons did, for purpouses of
(click to show/hide)

2. Unless you have studied halfswording manuals and actually used both techniques, your claim is based on only that halfswording uses polearm animations in game which is lol.

3. Halfswording is similar to regular 2h, you put one hand a bit further upon the blade - that's it. Try this - pick up a stick about 0.8-1.2m long (massive bonus points if centre of mass is heavily towards one side - like a 2h sword), then swing it with a 2h similar grip then with a halfswording one. Main difference between polearms and halfswording is that the centre of mass is placed differently, for a sword it's around the pommel area - for a polearm it's in a completely different place. Polearm techniques are not similar to halfswording, I'm sure that if you claimed this to an actual experts you would get laughed at.

Not to mention that it's a complete waste to put wpf into both 2h and polearms JUST to use halfswording, I can't recall the last time I actually saw anyone use in a battle or a duel, probably months. I really pity anyone who actually put wpf into polearms to use halfswording, imo.

Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: MrShine on October 10, 2011, 05:16:19 pm
No lol
You start this game as a peasant not "master swordsman" . If you want to become a "master swordsman" just get high "weapon master" skill and pump your wpf to 2handed and polearm therefore you'll learn both regular sword technique and half-swording capiche ?

"master swordsman" aka a dude who uses 2h over polearms.  Obviously if infantry puts all points into 2h they will use a 2h weapon.

You're trying to argue !realism! and I'm saying that that argument doesn't hold water if you're saying someone who is good with a sword will suddenly flop around like a trout if they hold the sword (they've been presumably using their entire time leveling) in a different way.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Laufknoten on October 10, 2011, 05:19:26 pm
Oh, it completely makes sense. Holding your sword in a bit different way clearly is more like using a halberd than using the mentioned sword normally.
Halfswording was a technique 2hers used against other 2hers in plate armor. In other words it was an advanced fighting style for special purpose. Even the biggest halfswording pro wasn't able to do shit with polearms, if he didn't train it.
So polearm wfp for halfswording is just bullshit.   
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Jarlek on October 10, 2011, 05:44:46 pm
So many people thinking 2h wpf means "Big Sword" wpf. Cause axes/mauls/morningstars are not 2handed weapons xD

Basically the 2h wpf represent your proficiency when you hold a weapon with two hands at the end, while polearm wpf is when you hold it in more to the middle for greater balance but less reach.

1h wpf is obviously when you use a weapon in one hand. Although spear&shield still uses polearm wpf, hmmm.

But hey, wtf, whatever. Let's do this. I also want all throwing weapons in 1h mode to still use throwing wpf, I want the cudgel/grosse messer to still use 1h wpf when you use it in 2h animation mode.

And those polearm axes, I'm sure a lot of them were also fought with while holding them at the hilt like a sword. Let's make an alternate mode for them too (like it is in native) except here they still use polearm wpf. That sounds fair doesn't it?
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Fraemi on October 10, 2011, 07:12:58 pm
2h swords are simply similar to morningstars and axes with similar center of mass than to anything else, mauls are ahistorical weapon and quite unrealistic anyway so those can be flat out ignored.
2h weapon proficiency represents (massive surprise ahead) proficiency with two handed weapons - how well you can use them, taleworlds defines them as 2h swords, great axes and mauls (+morningstars). Since that definition is a better starting point than someones random baseless claim, going by that it's fairly simple to see it says nothing about - "u put hand here xD". It's also dumb to think that all 2h swords or maces were swung with the exact same grip, speed and techniques, obviously not limiting "someone with 2h wpf" to swinging each and every weapon in the exact same way.

Thrusting a spear with 1 hand is completely different than slashing with a 1h sword or stabbing with it.
Also, hey - extreme, remote comparisons which noone ever mentioned and which don't make sense in any scenario! Indirect arguments which don't adress the matter at hand are cool, especially since those comparisons already been discussed.
For the realism argument - halfswording was used primarily for close range stabs against armoured guys primarily which is completely unlike how you use any of the classical polearms, it's a specific technique that only someone who was already using large, halfswording-capable swords would even bother to learn. It makes completely no sense how you can pick up a gs after a lifetime of being a spearman and know better how to swing it and also have a better sense of doing that than the lifetime 2h guy who brought that weapon to a siege battle.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: ArchonAlarion on October 12, 2011, 06:18:14 am
+1 to last sentence
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Slamz on October 13, 2011, 01:10:59 pm
Everything Fraemi said basically indicates we should drop "polearm" as a category and roll all of them into 2H.



So basically I disagree.  Polearms and 2H weapons both use two hands.  The difference is how you hold them.  If you are going to hold your sword like a polearm, then it uses polearm skill.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: ArchonAlarion on October 14, 2011, 09:15:29 pm
Then make 1 handing spears a different proficiency.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Jarlek on October 14, 2011, 10:53:44 pm
Then make 1 handing spears a different proficiency.
YES! Then we can actually boost hoplites without a bazillion retards shouting "BUT POLEARMS ARE OP!" when the shield&spear is COMPLETELY different from a poleaxe/glaive/whatever.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Tot. on October 23, 2011, 06:04:27 pm
Bump with a cute puppy.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Visconti on October 27, 2011, 11:30:22 am
Would be amazing to see this changed, im loling at the people saying "but you hold it like a polearm, so it must be used like one!" Fact is... anyone training with a greatsword would train in halfswording as well, as was already said, that doesnt mean hes gonna be able to use a halberd.

Love that there is an option to use halfswording, hate that this commonly used GS fighting style is not viable, iv been trying to use this in siege, and its completely useless.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Jarlek on October 27, 2011, 04:44:03 pm
Would be amazing to see this changed, im loling at the people saying "but you hold it like a polearm, so it must be used like one!" Fact is... anyone training with a greatsword would train in halfswording as well, as was already said, that doesnt mean hes gonna be able to use a halberd.

Love that there is an option to use halfswording, hate that this commonly used GS fighting style is not viable, iv been trying to use this in siege, and its completely useless.
Sigh. How hard is it to understand that you are not "training with a greatsword". You are training by holding the weapon that particular way. For instance. Going around swinging a 2h axe makes you better with greatswords? Makes no sense unless you look at the grip. A guy who trained with Greatswords to be awesome at Greatwords would train with BOTH the styles, normal grip at hilt (2h wpf) and halfswording (pole wpf). In this game the wpp category that closest resembles halfswording is polearm. Is it correct that a guy who knows how to use a poleaxe should be good with a sword? No. But the same can be said for a guy who is good with using a pike. A pike is VASTLY different from a glaive/axe/spear, yet they use the same wpf. Same with a maul/sword/morningstar for 2handers. Yet they all use the same wpf.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Visconti on October 27, 2011, 11:10:37 pm
Sigh. How hard is it to understand that you are not "training with a greatsword". You are training by holding the weapon that particular way. For instance. Going around swinging a 2h axe makes you better with greatswords? Makes no sense unless you look at the grip. A guy who trained with Greatswords to be awesome at Greatwords would train with BOTH the styles, normal grip at hilt (2h wpf) and halfswording (pole wpf). In this game the wpp category that closest resembles halfswording is polearm. Is it correct that a guy who knows how to use a poleaxe should be good with a sword? No. But the same can be said for a guy who is good with using a pike. A pike is VASTLY different from a glaive/axe/spear, yet they use the same wpf. Same with a maul/sword/morningstar for 2handers. Yet they all use the same wpf.

If your going with that logic, you can just say that the guy trained to be a master of all 2h weapons, which is why he would be good with so many different weapons, which, surprise, includes great swords! Which would mean he trains to use it in a half sword style. Same logic can be applied to pikes/halberds and what not.... guy trains to master all sorts of polearms.  Its also completely different from someone using a halberd being good with a pike..... the GS user is still using the exact same weapon, just in a slightly different grip. As was already said, I dont understand why someone who is apparently a master with a great sword, would suddenly have no idea what to do with his weapon because he put his hand slightly higher on the blade. There's no reason to even have this in the game if its so useless, not like making this use 2h wpf would make 2hs imba, you lose speed, reach, and damage, all you get is a short range stab.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Rebelyell on October 28, 2011, 03:29:23 pm
Half-sword, in 14th- to 16th-century fencing with the longswords, refers to the technique of gripping the central part of the sword blade with the left hand in order to execute more forceful thrusts against armoured and unarmoured opponents. The term is a translation of the original German Halbschwert. Equivalently, the techniques were referred to as mit dem kurzen Schwert "with the shortened sword."

Half-sword is used for leverage advantage when wrestling with the sword, as well as for delivering a more accurate and powerful thrust. Both of these are critical when fighting in plate armour, because a slice or a cleaving blow from a sword is virtually useless against iron or steel plate. Most medieval treatises show armoured combat as consisting primarily of fighting at the half-sword; the best options against an armoured man being a strong thrust into less-protected areas such as the armpits or throat or, even better, the same against a man who has already been cast to the ground. Some weapons may have been modified specifically for this purpose, sporting what is called a ricasso. Some longswords had a short ricasso, usually too close to the cross and hilt of the blade for practical use in half-swording except as a point of extra leverage in a thrust. The ricasso on larger swords, such as the two-handed sword, provided a longer area more fitting for gripping during half-swording. Filippo Vadi suggests that a sword be sharp only at the tip. It has been suggested that some swords were left unsharpened in a part of the sword a hand's breadth wide about half-way down the blade in order to facilitate this technique.

In Italian and English, "half sword" refers to a crossing of the sword in the middle of the blade, and by extension the relatively close range at which this takes place.

hmm wait so flamberg is best half sword ingame atm (there is only half sword animation) and no one complain

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


ah i found that in internet i am not such big proknowlaged :P
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Visconti on October 29, 2011, 10:43:14 am
Half-sword, in 14th- to 16th-century fencing with the longswords, refers to the technique of gripping the central part of the sword blade with the left hand in order to execute more forceful thrusts against armoured and unarmoured opponents. The term is a translation of the original German Halbschwert. Equivalently, the techniques were referred to as mit dem kurzen Schwert "with the shortened sword."

Half-sword is used for leverage advantage when wrestling with the sword, as well as for delivering a more accurate and powerful thrust. Both of these are critical when fighting in plate armour, because a slice or a cleaving blow from a sword is virtually useless against iron or steel plate. Most medieval treatises show armoured combat as consisting primarily of fighting at the half-sword; the best options against an armoured man being a strong thrust into less-protected areas such as the armpits or throat or, even better, the same against a man who has already been cast to the ground. Some weapons may have been modified specifically for this purpose, sporting what is called a ricasso. Some longswords had a short ricasso, usually too close to the cross and hilt of the blade for practical use in half-swording except as a point of extra leverage in a thrust. The ricasso on larger swords, such as the two-handed sword, provided a longer area more fitting for gripping during half-swording. Filippo Vadi suggests that a sword be sharp only at the tip. It has been suggested that some swords were left unsharpened in a part of the sword a hand's breadth wide about half-way down the blade in order to facilitate this technique.

In Italian and English, "half sword" refers to a crossing of the sword in the middle of the blade, and by extension the relatively close range at which this takes place.

hmm wait so flamberg is best half sword ingame atm (there is only half sword animation) and no one complain

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ah i found that in internet i am not such big proknowlaged :P

Yes, the Flamberge is a good halfsword weapon..... but whats your point? there are other great sword that you should be able to halfsword with, Danish, German, Sword of War, regular Greatsword, Two handed sword, Highland Claymore.

Also, id imagine that the reason you can only halfsword with a Flamberge is because its way to big to use any other way.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Rebelyell on October 29, 2011, 11:45:53 am
but still no ones have to use that weapons like polearms... and stop with that complaining about pole mode coz it make no sens!
how you can use 2 h like polearm???? Pole weapon is some kind of long stick(sometimes only stick) with kind  of blade(or mace axe ect) on the end.
maybe dev make pole mode but still is so similar to true halfswording technique(shorter reach weaker swings more powerfull stab you grab sword on balade and... weapon is way slower.... slower)

and do not cry abou that op stab on german coz on mw GGS is some like 33( alwpikes 34~35) and that sta is so short, so it oly for special occasions
not for regular.

btw flamberge is strange.... its like half and half swording :P
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Visconti on October 29, 2011, 12:42:35 pm
but still no ones have to use that weapons like polearms... and stop with that complaining about pole mode coz it make no sens!
how you can use 2 h like polearm???? Pole weapon is some kind of long stick(sometimes only stick) with kind  of blade(or mace axe ect) on the end.
maybe dev make pole mode but still is so similar to true halfswording technique(shorter reach weaker swings more powerfull stab you grab sword on balade and... weapon is way slower.... slower)

and do not cry abou that op stab on german coz on mw GGS is some like 33( alwpikes 34~35) and that sta is so short, so it oly for special occasions
not for regular.

btw flamberge is strange.... its like half and half swording :P

What?? I didnt see anyone crying about stab on the german greatsword... as to the rest of your post.... what????
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: RandomDude on October 30, 2011, 03:10:25 pm
It is a bit pointless to have halfswording use polearm prof imo.

I dont think ive ever seen a 2h switch to halfsword in order to stop a cav also so the "losing rear horse" ability isnt a big loss

With swords getting stuck on all sorts of stuff then it would help a lot.

It wouldnt help me, of course, as I use TEH FLAMBERGE! But if the half swords get this "buff" then I can lobby for some changes to flamberge!
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Tot. on November 05, 2011, 12:32:59 am
Bump.

PS. Some dev input like 'okay, we'll try to fix it in the next patch' would nicely close the case.  :wink:
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Rebelyell on November 05, 2011, 07:24:30 pm
yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Gorath on November 06, 2011, 07:40:54 pm
If halfswording is changed to use 2h prof, then by the exact same logic the fighting axe, langes messer, military sickle and such should all use 1h prof when used in their alt-mode as 2her's.  It's not like someone who is training to use a langes messer would just suddenly forget what the hell is going on if he puts his second hand on the handle.

Exact

same

logic.

Make it happen.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Jarlek on November 06, 2011, 07:57:36 pm
If halfswording is changed to use 2h prof, then by the exact same logic the fighting axe, langes messer, military sickle and such should all use 1h prof when used in their alt-mode as 2her's.  It's not like someone who is training to use a langes messer would just suddenly forget what the hell is going on if he puts his second hand on the handle.

Exact

same

logic.

Make it happen.
And throwing weapons! It's not like someone who is trained in throwing axes would just suddenly forget what the hell is going on when he uses it in melee!

Exact

same

logic.

It really is silly, isn't it?
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Gorath on November 06, 2011, 08:18:36 pm
And throwing weapons! It's not like someone who is trained in throwing axes would just suddenly forget what the hell is going on when he uses it in melee!

Exact

same

logic.

It really is silly, isn't it?

Agreed.  These changes need to take place now.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Zisa on November 06, 2011, 08:55:29 pm
If halfswording is changed to use 2h prof, then by the exact same logic the fighting axe, langes messer, military sickle and such should all use 1h prof when used in their alt-mode as 2her's.  It's not like someone who is training to use a langes messer would just suddenly forget what the hell is going on if he puts his second hand on the handle.

Exact

same

logic.

Make it happen.
Those weapons should use either wpf, whichever is greater.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Gorath on November 06, 2011, 10:05:52 pm
Those weapons should use either wpf, whichever is greater.

No.  They should use whatever wpf their starting "class" is.  Otherwise 2hers that can halfsword should use 2her or polearm wpf, whichever is greater.
Since the base class for langes/fighting axe/mil sickle/etc is 1her, it should use 1her.
throwing weapons = throwing wpf
2hers/halfsworded = 2her

By just having them use "whichever is greater" we're getting into the territory of why bother having wpf classes at all.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Zisa on November 06, 2011, 11:03:48 pm
No.  They should use whatever wpf their starting "class" is.  Otherwise 2hers that can halfsword should use 2her or polearm wpf, whichever is greater.
Since the base class for langes/fighting axe/mil sickle/etc is 1her, it should use 1her.
throwing weapons = throwing wpf
2hers/halfsworded = 2her

By just having them use "whichever is greater" we're getting into the territory of why bother having wpf classes at all.
So does it scare you more to face throw axe with 140 wpf or throw axe with 1h 1 wpf... in melee.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Gorath on November 06, 2011, 11:22:38 pm
So does it scare you more to face throw axe with 140 wpf or throw axe with 1h 1 wpf... in melee.

What?

With what I'm saying the thrower would have that 140wpf on his side which would be a buff, obviously.

I'm not actually against the idea of buffing people equally.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Zisa on November 07, 2011, 12:04:13 am
What?

With what I'm saying the thrower would have that 140wpf on his side which would be a buff, obviously.

I'm not actually against the idea of buffing people equally.
I do not get why you are against these bastard weapons using highest prof, by your logic all bastard weapons use 1h?

Regardless, if someone is hybrid they will be less effective then a pure, and having a different mode for these weapons seems sometimes pointless - how many other idiots besides me uses langes 2h etc?
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Gorath on November 07, 2011, 12:11:10 am
how many other idiots besides me uses langes 2h etc?

Me.   :evil:

And I always have to go with a balanced (IE:  Gimped) build so I can have enough wpf in both 1h AND 2h to do so.  Anyways, the point is that if you're going to make 2hers use 2h prof in halfsword mode, then other weapons should use their base wpf when used in THEIR alt mode as well.  It's the only fair way.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Blashyrkh on November 07, 2011, 12:33:25 pm
can polearms get a 2h mode since 2h have pole mode? I have no problem in poles would use 2h wpf.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Tot. on November 24, 2011, 03:54:00 am
Bump.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Gorath on November 24, 2011, 07:33:44 am
I do not get why you are against these bastard weapons using highest prof, by your logic all bastard weapons use 1h?

No.  Only the langes, fighting axe, and mil sickle would use 1h IIRC.
Bastard, heavy bastard, longsword, goedendag, spiked mace, morning star, etc would all use 2h.
Polearms get fucked, but they're versatile as is.
Title: Re: [STATS] Halfswording should use 2h prof
Post by: Tot. on November 30, 2011, 04:51:49 pm
Okay, well, 120 people voted and almost 3/4 of them is playing a two hander would like to see this fixed.  :)