cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: awesomeasaurus on October 04, 2011, 03:34:14 am
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please see: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,17177.0.html (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,17177.0.html)
Shields are nearly useless to use to body block on siege or battle alike. I think this should be reverted or fixed. Discuss.
Do not talk about kick-slash or mauls because it is irrelevant.
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*edited to remove silliness*
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Mine works well enough. It's a little harder post-patch, sure, but it just takes a little more active facing towards the oncoming projectiles.
BODY BLOCKING, as in stopping opponents movement....has nothing to do with projectiles. Stopping people from moving THRU YOU if you are holding your position with shield up. People just walk right by me like I'm a stick figure instead.
1 person with the top 2 widest shields in the game (heavy round/huscarl) used to be able to block movement thru standard doorways, now people can walk right by you when shield is up
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This needs to be addressed. The main benefit of playing as a shielder are the tactical applications. I would understand if this was only effecting people like me who use a buckler, but round shields and things of similar or greater size should be able to hold choke points with a bit more ease. People phasing through yo' shizz is lame.
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I need to test this.
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I also would like this looked into and fixed if it was done unintentionally. Ive been able to walk threw shielders blocking a doorway too many times now, it just looks silly.
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It would be interesting if a shield could have 1 hit box for damage and a second, larger hit boxes for clipping (people moving through them).
I'm fine with someone having a 1 shield skill and a small shield and getting hit around the shield easily, but if I'm holding up a giant huskarl shield, people should have to go around me by at least the physical width of the shield. Two huskarls in a narrow hall should be able to completely block it.
Earlier today, Fallen was practicing shield wall techniques and I never had any trouble just walking right through them, even though their shields had no visible gap between them. You just push into them and you're through.
Course I got mauled on the other side but the point is I shouldn't have been able to just walk through their shields.
We should get on a deathmatch server or something and FRAPS some videos of it.
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Heres a short video highlighting how bad the problem is. (Sorry meant to do it in higher rez, but whatever)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AIWodyQvq4
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Heres a short video highlighting how bad the problem is. (Sorry meant to do it in higher rez, but whatever)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AIWodyQvq4
Holy crap, fix it OH GOD FIX IT!
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Heres a short video highlighting how bad the problem is. (Sorry meant to do it in higher rez, but whatever)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AIWodyQvq4
Wow, didn't know it was this bad, should get fixed.
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Yeah that is pretty bad.
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Aye... i seem to have noticed this as well. Thanks for making that video, Digglez. Pictures are sometimes better then words.
Not sure if / how this can be tweaked though. I'll try asking around, maybe get the devs attention to this.
Not a major problem, but perhaps it needs tweaking.
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Not a major problem but perhaps it needs tweaking.
I lol'd
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Aye... i seem to have noticed this as well. Thanks for making that video, Digglez. Pictures are sometimes better then words.
Not sure if / how this can be tweaked though. I'll try asking around, maybe get the devs attention to this.
Not a major problem, but perhaps it needs tweaking.
At the very least, revert shields back to last patches qualities while its looked into~ plz. This is a major problem as a good part of using shields IS to block passages.
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People going inside me has been a huge problem.
>not using a shield.
Until it is fixed I'm going to learn to exploit it to hell and back. Another game engine thing to use to break people in duels.
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At the very least, revert shields back to last patches qualities while its looked into~ plz. This is a major problem as a good part of using shields IS to block passages.
Hmn... maybe but if they removed night time cycle it would solve this issue straight away
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Shield has been really gimped imho.
You can face hug and ghost swing through a shield, the block area has been reduced, heirlooming shields has been gimped, and now they reduced its hitbox again.
Need to do something to shield to make it work properly again, its tiring having your super amazing h4x advantage do absolutely nothing when you need it.
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Heres a short video highlighting how bad the problem is. (Sorry meant to do it in higher rez, but whatever)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AIWodyQvq4
Wow ! Thanks for taking the time to do this vid, i didn't know the problem was that bad. Even though i did experience it before, seeing without looking at the opponent's attack is totally different.
I also seem to get hit from the front while my shield is up. The guy walks sideway, and when he start his swing, it's between my shield and me, and it's not blocked, clean hit. Dunno if it's just my imagination though. I'll try to be more aware.
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Wow ! Thanks for taking the time to do this vid, i didn't know the problem was that bad. Even though i did experience it before, seeing without looking at the opponent's attack is totally different.
I also seem to get hit from the front while my shield is up. The guy walks sideway, and when he start his swing, it's between my shield and me, and it's not blocked, clean hit. Dunno if it's just my imagination though. I'll try to be more aware.
That's because he is hitting "around" your shield. Kinda stupid since the only way to block it is to look to the side, which means he can hit you with any of the other attack directions. And you can't attack back fast enough since sideswings has a limit on how fast you can turn your character when doing them and overheads will most often be too slow/make you not able to turn the camera (and thus character) to the enemy. The way I found to fix this is by never facehugging, but dodging/keeping my range, which makes enemies cry "backpedler!" (even though if I DON'T they call me "facehugger!", sigh) and just trying to keep the range in a sweet spot.
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Holy crap, fix it OH GOD FIX IT!
QFT. +1!
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this is annoying as hell in random 1v1 fighting as well, the guy i'm fighting will literally warp through meand get a free shot at my back as i try desperately to turn around and face him again :|
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Dev's, this issue needs to be addressed asap!
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Can we get a god damn dev response?
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this is annoying as hell in random 1v1 fighting as well, the guy i'm fighting will literally warp through meand get a free shot at my back as i try desperately to turn around and face him again :|
I've noticed this more myself now too. Not sure if it's lag, hitboxes, or a combination or what.
The other thing I've noticed too is that my 1-hander glances more after this recent patch. This isn't my sword bouncing off some guy next to me. This is during 1 v 1's.
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I've noticed this more myself now too. Not sure if it's lag, hitboxes, or a combination or what.
The other thing I've noticed too is that my 1-hander glances more after this recent patch. This isn't my sword bouncing off some guy next to me. This is during 1 v 1's.
Same. Compared to the "never-glance"TM 2hs and the "not-glancing-just-reduced-damage-which-wouldn't-matter-anyway-since-the-enemy-is-out-of-range"TM polearms, the 1h really should get a wider "sweetspot" for delivering damage. They are already the shortest and least damaging, why should they be the most glancing too?
We are not talking about DAMAGE glancing, btw, but animation glancing from hitting too early/late in the animation. Considering that you can't turn while swinging (with a 1h) AND you move slow as fuck with a shield, this really is a big issue.
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Another pain is that the shield counts as a part of your body when it comes to getting kicked. Does this makes sense?
This gives increased range for kicks against shields and since we already need to get close to hit the person I think this should be changed.
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bumpp
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bump for attention from devs/players.
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While I have seen some of the 'ghosting' when players get near each other, I have not been seeing my arrows passing through shields. I have not noticed that aiming at feet suddenly works more often. From a ranged perspective, I do not see an issue with collision detection. From a melee perspective, I've seen people able to 'bend' their weapons around a shield and hit since Day 1.
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When you get up close and facehug I noticed that attacks chambered can swing through the shield if the weapon is past it already.
Many of these issues aren't a problem for the huscarl shield, however the primary reason for the nerf was that shield, all the other ones were over nerfed I think because of it.
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I was fighting Matey, one of the best NA huscarl users, and I purposefully tried to ghost through him and get a hit.
It worked much better than I thought. He told me that there were times I shouldn't have hit him, and that some attacks hit past his shield.
It's probably worse for a non-loomed lower than 7 shield non-huscarl shield.
I think shielders would have their own niche if it blocked people from getting around them easier.
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Maybe one solution could be that "shield bash" everyone talks about.
Shield bash could do one of two things:
* Knock the target 2 feet backwards
or
* Reduce the target's movement speed to 10% normal for 2 seconds
No stuns or stumbles (like kick), just a way to put the brakes on someone that's trying to ghost through your shield wall.
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This is pretty big problem. I had just retired before the patch so didn't notice it much as I was leveling over the last two weeks -- I was getting wrecked regardless of my shield's functionality.
However, now that I've hit 20 it's readily apparent what a significant change it was. I'm CONSTANTLY getting hit through my shield -- attacks that start in front of me during a fight as the player moves towards me are regularly circumventing my shield. I've even been hit with a few overheads in the last few days with my shield completely raised....this have never happened before. I'm assuming it's a jump combined with them pathing through me somehow.
The only solution I've found is to completely face my shield to the weapon and NOT the player or to actually stop using the only playstyle (facehugging) that works with my weapon and class by backing away and then darting in after swings. I have an 85 reach weapon. This is a ridiculous.
I use a Heavy Kite Shield which is naturally more challenged on the edges, but this is absurd.
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I still don't understand why they did this change to begin with.
Shields break. Yes, the Huskarl shield was a giant force field but mine, with 6 in shields, breaks regularly enough. Put me in a situation where I'm having to fend off three 2H spammers and my Huskarl shield will break pretty quickly. Longbows and throwing axes are threats to shield health as well. Even with the previous coverage, you could still hit shielders in the side or back. It was perfect frontal protection, but not side or back protection.
So.... why the change?
Shields were not overpowered. Shielders were not topping the kill charts on battle or forever blocking all entrances to the castle on siege. "Tavern Keeper" (a character with 13 in shield and thus a completely unbreakable shield) is one of the most useless people you can have on your team -- whereas someone with 13 in power strike is a serial killer.
This change has caused problems and I don't see the point of why it was done to begin with.
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I changed to round shields because of the new collision detection, and there are still problems with getting hit around my shield.
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It's not just that, and this may just be my increasing frustration talking right now but it actually feels like I'm getting "ghosted" through in a way that I can't actually do to other non-shielders. For example earlier I was against two guys and one pushed up against and went through me, hitting me in the back in the process and putting his teammate right in front of me, so I tried to rush past the teammate and ending up running into the guy at the exact same angle the previous guy had just went through me... I got stopped and couldn't move forward....
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Just experienced another "first."
I guess a thrower who is directly in front of you can now jump while standing 10-15ft away (probably anywhere in the 0-15ft range) and completely circumvent a raised shield over the top. I was the recipient of 2 axe-throwing headshot deaths a few days ago due to this little wrinkle. Throwers are usually not much of a threat to a shielder who is facing them, but suddenly they are...at least some threat.
Not worried about throwers getting love as much as wondering what the point is from a shield user's perspective. Shield's are very heavy and significantly slow our movement speed, especially when raised. This is clearly the penalty in order to balance having frontal protection and a one size fits all block. Now that we've significantly reduced shield coverage, why are we not afforded a boost to mobility? If shields are bad then why can't we get some mobility back?
I just don't understand the change to shields at all...I don't notice shielders running rampant through hordes of 2H or Pole players; I've never seen any stats showing them dominating in any particular category; shields break pretty quickly and when they do we enjoy a healthy stagger; they do not provide universal block coverage in any direction which all other blocking weapons do provide; weapon length; weapon strength...etc. etc.
There are a ton of balances stacked against shields based on the simple premise that the shield functions as it does...yet core shield functionality seems to have changed pretty radically overnight with no resulting adjustments to the elements that kept shield use in balance. That's an easy argument for something now being out of balance. I'm still slow...my weapon is still slow...my weapon reach is still short...my weapon is still weak...
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Playing as a shielder is not really viable anymore.
Unless you use huscarl which seems to be the only shield that offers decent protection.
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Playing as a shielder is not really viable anymore.
Unless you use huscarl which seems to be the only shield that offers decent protection.
Agreed. I'm all for the shields only protecting what it actually covers, but when we can't move the shield without moving all of our self, none of the shields are any big AND they slow us so much down everyone can dance around us, it really is too much a bitch to fight with. Still see 2h/poles in plate armour accelerating faster than me, running faster than me and dancing around in combat.
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Hugging people is very frustrating. Especially when they just glitch through your shield and zoom behind you, or two-handers holding their swings and just hitting your back when they are clearly in front of you. Very frustrating and I beg for it to be fixed.
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A solution would be to give an extra directionnal block to shielders, because it seems that a tiny sword protect you more than a shield.
For example, an overhead block can block everything (even from behind), try to do the same with a shield, you'll die in a second.
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This shit is damn annoying, especially when you are fighting a group or a couple of people, suddenly one of them passes through you and you're surrounded... :rolleyes:
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I've been playing without a shield most of the time lately and it's certainly a lot better. I'm faster, swing faster and I'm brushing up my manual blocking skills at the same time.
Btw, did anyone else notice you can't turn as fast with a 1h as you can with a 2h/polearm?
Try doing one of those 360 helicopter stabs 2h's do all the time on the duelserver. You just can't.
With 2h you can turn as fast as you can flick your camera around and for a 1h it seems to be a fixed maximum speed regardless of your mousespeed. I can even turn my camera a full circle and my toon will just turn a quarter, then jump back to neutral because I turned too fast with the camera.
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I've been playing without a shield most of the time lately and it's certainly a lot better. I'm faster, swing faster and I'm brushing up my manual blocking skills at the same time.
Btw, did anyone else notice you can't turn as fast with a 1h as you can with a 2h/polearm?
Try doing one of those 360 helicopter stabs 2h's do all the time on the duelserver. You just can't.
With 2h you can turn as fast as you can flick your camera around and for a 1h it seems to be a fixed maximum speed regardless of your mousespeed. I can even turn my camera a full circle and my toon will just turn a quarter, then jump back to neutral because I turned too fast with the camera.
YES! People (read, 2handers) called me crazy, a noob and a lier when I pointed this out! Guess they never tried a shield. Finally someone else who is bothered by it.
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I still don't understand why they did this change to begin with.
Shields break. Yes, the Huskarl shield was a giant force field but mine, with 6 in shields, breaks regularly enough. Put me in a situation where I'm having to fend off three 2H spammers and my Huskarl shield will break pretty quickly. Longbows and throwing axes are threats to shield health as well. Even with the previous coverage, you could still hit shielders in the side or back. It was perfect frontal protection, but not side or back protection.
So.... why the change?
Shields were not overpowered. Shielders were not topping the kill charts on battle or forever blocking all entrances to the castle on siege. "Tavern Keeper" (a character with 13 in shield and thus a completely unbreakable shield) is one of the most useless people you can have on your team -- whereas someone with 13 in power strike is a serial killer.
This change has caused problems and I don't see the point of why it was done to begin with.
no shield bash, has been suggested before so do not bring it up- This needs to be investigated and analyzed so the Devs can get a good look at it
Maybe Walt can help us?
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I've been noticing this more and more. Can we at least get a message that something is being done/thought about it? Just a "we are looking for a solution" would be nice!
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I've been playing without a shield most of the time lately and it's certainly a lot better. I'm faster, swing faster and I'm brushing up my manual blocking skills at the same time.
Btw, did anyone else notice you can't turn as fast with a 1h as you can with a 2h/polearm?
Try doing one of those 360 helicopter stabs 2h's do all the time on the duelserver. You just can't.
With 2h you can turn as fast as you can flick your camera around and for a 1h it seems to be a fixed maximum speed regardless of your mousespeed. I can even turn my camera a full circle and my toon will just turn a quarter, then jump back to neutral because I turned too fast with the camera.
Its probably the most annoying thing I've noticed, super frustrating when you can turn fast enough to block somebodies attack even with a shit-light shield.
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Heres a short video highlighting how bad the problem is. (Sorry meant to do it in higher rez, but whatever)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AIWodyQvq4
I think a shield bash could be cool but not feasible to implement. I am fine with shielding as it stands but I believe aspects of it should be altered. ^^^^
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I've been noticing this more and more. Can we at least get a message that something is being done/thought about it? Just a "we are looking for a solution" would be nice!
Cmp said he has seen this thread but has not had the time to test the mechanics
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Cmp said he has seen this thread but has not had the time to test the mechanics
Ahh. Good to know. I really should try to remember what's been said in what thread xD
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Ahh. Good to know. I really should try to remember what's been said in what thread xD
Well no I went and asked him personally on IRC if he had looked at it
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Well no I went and asked him personally on IRC if he had looked at it
I herp the derp.
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hey im not a shielder but there have been times where i was or some one was so close to me/them that they somehow bumped mine/their block and just started to beat the shit out of them.i thought this was some feature to where if your attack started at their block it merely bumped it out of the way
has anyone ever had this happen to them?
it would make sense if it was a glitch
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Your all fools, shields are being fazed out, get with the program people!
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DEVS please address this, its worse than ever. When fighting 2h/polearm people just warp/teleport thru my shield on a REGULAR basis and hit/hiltslash me from behind. Not only do they warp but they also disappear for a second
and I use a heavy round shield, the 2nd widest shield in the game
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DEVS please address this, its worse than ever. When fighting 2h/polearm people just warp/teleport thru my shield on a REGULAR basis and hit/hiltslash me from behind. Not only do they warp but they also disappear for a second
+1 I get the same problems, and it needs to be fixed.
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DEVS please address this, its worse than ever. When fighting 2h/polearm people just warp/teleport thru my shield on a REGULAR basis and hit/hiltslash me from behind. Not only do they warp but they also disappear for a second
and I use a heavy round shield, the 2nd widest shield in the game
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DEVS please address this, its worse than ever. When fighting 2h/polearm people just warp/teleport thru my shield on a REGULAR basis and hit/hiltslash me from behind. Not only do they warp but they also disappear for a second
and I use a heavy round shield, the 2nd widest shield in the game
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DEVS please address this, its worse than ever. When fighting 2h/polearm people just warp/teleport thru my shield on a REGULAR basis and hit/hiltslash me from behind. Not only do they warp but they also disappear for a second
and I use a heavy round shield, the 2nd widest shield in the game
When you say warping through your shield do you mean warping through you character model? 'Cause that happens to me a lot.
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A agree this should be looked at. Super frustrating.
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When you say warping through your shield do you mean warping through you character model? 'Cause that happens to me a lot.
both, i have shield block up and they magically warp thru me/myshield and appear behind me...and of course hilt slashing the shit out of me
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both, i have shield block up and they magically warp thru me/myshield and appear behind me...and of course hilt slashing the shit out of me
+1
Happens to me every 3 minutes.
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bump