cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: CaptainQuantum on September 16, 2011, 09:32:57 pm

Title: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 16, 2011, 09:32:57 pm
It's been a long time since people have started asking for pole stun/stagger to be removed, the devs have said it's not possible until WSE is released. So now it is can pole stun/stagger be reduced to the way 2 hand works, poles are way more overpowered than 2 hands and this would be a step in the correct direction.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on September 16, 2011, 09:34:22 pm
someone's has alreadya sked for that  :wink:
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Thucydides on September 16, 2011, 09:36:49 pm
sure. Keep polestagger for long poles though
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 16, 2011, 09:39:42 pm
Good to hear, I was just making sure.

After that we need a complete rethink of pole stats though, some poles have everything over a 2hand of the same role, but I know people will just say 2hand are OP buff poles.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Dezilagel on September 16, 2011, 09:39:59 pm
sure. Keep polestagger for long poles though

Err... Why?  :?

EDIT: Quant you mad bro?

What exactly apart from polestun makes poles so OP?

They have a more powerful stab sure, but it's way shorter (+17 length vs +80 for 2h) and generally worse animations?

Horsestop? (2h have the range/animations to snipe the rider, poles can stop the horse - just different ways of approaching the problem)

Balanced shieldbreak? (this I can agree with, 2h should have some balanced axes!)

But on the whole, I think it's fairly balanced, both classes have their pro's and cons, just gotta deal with the bs gamemechanics like polestun.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Thucydides on September 16, 2011, 09:43:03 pm
Err... Why?  :?

because long poles with one directional attack is fairly useless in team battles without the long stagger?
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 16, 2011, 09:54:40 pm
The poles I am talking of are the longer ones, glaive especially. Backpedalling and a little manual blocking is virtually impossible to beat no matter your skill, even the best of the 22nd has issues with the worst of players using this. Then theres the polearm axes (GLA and co.) which have absolutely no stats worse than the best 2 hands, (the only thing they lose is a stab which is balanced out with their effectiveness on shields).

2hand stab may seem powerful, but it has a huge recovery time, a block from a shield too early in the swing makes the 2hander unable to block the next swing, and now with floor bounce the same occurs with a stab miss.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Dezilagel on September 16, 2011, 10:02:50 pm
The poles I am talking of are the longer ones, glaive especially. Backpedalling and a little manual blocking is virtually impossible to beat no matter your skill, even the best of the 22nd has issues with the worst of players using this. Then theres the polearm axes (GLA and co.) which have absolutely no stats worse than the best 2 hands, (the only thing they lose is a stab which is balanced out with their effectiveness on shields).

2hand stab may seem powerful, but it has a huge recovery time, a block from a shield too early in the swing makes the 2hander unable to block the next swing, and now with floor bounce the same occurs with a stab miss.

Yes, backpeddaling glavie spammers are annoying, but I've found a way to deal with them - backpeddle while looking like a moron yourself - they usually get the message  :wink:

While glavies are the most common backpeddaling weps, 2h do it just as "well" thanks to reach
 gained from animations (also, dat stab)

Poles have the same long stagger when stab is blocked, especially by shields it seems (afaik) since they are so heavy. Floor bounce is the same.

And no, the best poles don't have stats that are worse than their 2h counterparts...?

Should they?

I'm not quite getting what you're trying to say here.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 16, 2011, 10:07:09 pm
No the stab part was for the GLA, the pole stab recovery will be less due to faster animation. The amount of stun depends on the animation length I think.

The backpedalling to show how silly it is doesn't seem to do anything to the noobs, they just keep on going until theres no map length. They come back and then start backpedalling again.

The reason I mentioned the GLA is because I think it's speed got upped today, it one hits people and it now has the same speed as a Danish at 3k less? WTF?
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Thucydides on September 16, 2011, 10:12:48 pm
I like to point out that my GLA rarely ever stunlocks anyone, especially if they're "pro". I have to be literally suicidal to get a hit on a "pro" blocker, else it'll just degenerate to a block battle, and GLA feints suck dick. The suicidal attacks leave me ill positioned to initiate an attack immediately after my hit landed to "double hit".
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 16, 2011, 10:17:09 pm
I believe all poles have the same chance to cause polestun (50%?) which will result in a free strike. If I heard Paul correctly in TS that is. Polearm (Edit:axe) feints are not so good, but held polearm spins are much better than 2hands since the animations are wierd. I have no idea why the unbalanced attribute was removed from those axes since they seemed fine before.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Thucydides on September 16, 2011, 10:44:10 pm
I believe all poles have the same chance to cause polestun (50%?) which will result in a free strike. If I heard Paul correctly in TS that is. Polearm (Edit:axe) feints are not so good, but held polearm spins are much better than 2hands since the animations are wierd. I have no idea why the unbalanced attribute was removed from those axes since they seemed fine before.

not true, in my experience only poles with 92+ speed can get a free hit after a polestun, and thats if they are angled perfectly. Becs are the main problem because 2 hits is all that is needed to kill a str build in full plate. I've tried the glaive, poleaxe, GLA, GLB, and all of them cannot 2 hit unless against a person with terrible footwork.

Making a weapon unbalanced means that it is impossible to duel with it, which is retarded because dane axes were considered "knightly" weapons and were balanced well enough to be used in a duel
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 16, 2011, 10:58:02 pm
It isn't dependant on the person's footwork, while staggered they cannot move so it's not their fault. Even without the perfect stun where you net yourself a free hit you can move around the back and hit again without the person being able to turn around in time. I would check with Paul for whether complete stunlock is possible (a guaranteed hit after the first). 

On the longspear stun, yes I think it should stay since these are support weapons.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Dezilagel on September 16, 2011, 11:04:03 pm
No the stab part was for the GLA, the pole stab recovery will be less due to faster animation. The amount of stun depends on the animation length I think.

The animation length is exactly the same afaik, the pole stab hits with force earlier, but has longer "still at max reach" and "draw-back" times. I've gotten my thrust chambered with both pole and 2h (0 wpf) and it seems to me that it's equally hard to get a block in for both (I rarely do, but there seems to be a tiny window for it).

The backpedalling to show how silly it is doesn't seem to do anything to the noobs, they just keep on going until theres no map length. They come back and then start backpedalling again.

(This is quite a ridiculous statement btw... But I hope you figured that out yourself)

So? Let them wander off then. One less player for your team to deal with.

The reason I mentioned the GLA is because I think it's speed got upped today, it one hits people and it now has the same speed as a Danish at 3k less? WTF?

Well, pro's and cons of Danish vs GLA:

Danish:

Length - (Overhead +29, Left - to - Right +23, Right - to - Left +14, Stab  +60)

Stab/Access to pierce damage (obvious)

Feinting

GLA:

Price

(swing) Damage (Mind you, the Danish has a pierce damage attack, something the GLA is lacking, making it better against really heavily armored opponents)

Shieldbreak

Stun

I dunno, I think they're pretty balanced.

Whatever "crusade" you're onto right now, I suggest dropping it.

Yes, polestun is shit, but to go yelling "wah-wah, poles are soo OP" without providing any real arguments to support your claim isn't helping anyone imo.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 16, 2011, 11:05:53 pm
Amount of reach added to weapon length due to animation.

1h
Overhead = +0
Left-to-right = +0
Right-to-left = +19
Thrust = +61

2h
Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80

2h Polearms
Overhead = -15
Left-to-right = -7
Right-to-left = -2
Thrust = +19

1h Polearms
Thrust = +50


Two handers are easier to Castor swing and point blank fighting, and in my experience harder to predict feints.

Regardless, Polearm stun is a bit weird and maybe unbalancing, though I do like that it stops horses with a thrust.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Thucydides on September 16, 2011, 11:12:08 pm
It isn't dependant on the person's footwork, while staggered they cannot move so it's not their fault. Even without the perfect stun where you net yourself a free hit you can move around the back and hit again without the person being able to turn around in time. I would check with Paul for whether complete stunlock is possible (a guaranteed hit after the first). 


It definitely gets more frequent the faster the weapon becomes, my GLA does stunlock on the odd occasion, but its not rage inducing because its not consistant at all. Personally removing polestagger won't really affect my playstyle, but warspear users/hafted blade users will be at a disadvantage compared to other weapon users.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 16, 2011, 11:12:30 pm
Dezi if your down swing is chambered by a 2h stab then thats blockable because it's slow, overhead is unblockable in crpg from another 2h. It was the other way around in native stabs chamber blocked by a stab was unblockable, but that was fine because stab chamber blocks are pretty easy to re-chamber. The main problem is that the GLA seems to 1 hit kill most stuff. But my main problem is the glaive, 160 range and a backpedaller is just stupid. Leave them alone is fine unless they have a crossbow or they will come back and hit you in the back later.

I am on no "crusade", I am just tired of everyone saying 2handers are OP when quite clearly they haven't seen how crap they are against polestun.

It is possible to net yourself a free hit with the GLA, Tor has done it to me a few times. Warspear/hafted blade users should not have to rely on polestun to win, it should be a capable weapon in it's own.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 16, 2011, 11:16:27 pm
I also must add that polearms also have the versaitility of having the same WPF as a lance user, which shouldn't concern a full polearmer but is very versatile for cav. This should be compensated for too in some way.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Dezilagel on September 16, 2011, 11:23:46 pm
Dezi if your down swing is chambered by a 2h stab then thats blockable because it's slow, overhead is unblockable in crpg from another 2h. It was the other way around in native stabs chamber blocked by a stab was unblockable, but that was fine because stab chamber blocks are pretty easy to re-chamber. The main problem is that the GLA seems to 1 hit kill most stuff. But my main problem is the glaive, 160 range and a backpedaller is just stupid. Leave them alone is fine unless they have a crossbow or they will come back and hit you in the back later.

Yeah an overhead chamber from a fast weapon may prove unblockable so what? Nice to have something to end the endless duels at times.

As for backpeddallers - just leave them alone or facehug them to death, sure the hardcore ones are annoying and you may need to block a couple of times before you're in range but remember that if he's backpeddaling, you're the one with the power to disengage. This is very important to remember in battle.

I am on no "crusade", I am just tired of everyone saying 2handers are OP when quite clearly they haven't seen how crap they are against polestun.

Don't listen to the whining friendly archers and cav  :wink:

2h aint OP.

It is possible to net yourself a free hit with the GLA, Tor has done it to me a few times. Warspear/hafted blade users should not have to rely on polestun to win, it should be a capable weapon in it's own.

Yes polestun is bs, and yes we all want it removed but it is apperently not possible atm. Also - proper hilt slashes can get you "free swings" aswell.

I also must add that polearms also have the versaitility of having the same WPF as a lance user, which shouldn't concern a full polearmer but is very versatile for cav. This should be compensated for too in some way.

Yah, this I can agree with, but I don't think pole inf should suffer just because cav have an easier time hybriding with pole, you with me?

I dunno what's possible with WSE, but maybe have a seperate wpf collumn for lances, pikes and 2 att dir poles?

Hmm... I dunno :p
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Thucydides on September 16, 2011, 11:27:38 pm
yeah 2h may not have polestun, but those castor swing happens way too often

also, from what i hear about the legendary Tor, hes like the best GLA player in existence. Since i'm the only person in NA that actually uses the GLA consistently, and considering that i'm not that good, i'd say that i'm a better example of a GLA in action compared to a "tor"
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 16, 2011, 11:32:32 pm
Well Paul said it is possible to remove polestun in TS, it's just whether the devs want to, they can change the chance to pole stagger to 0 for no pole stagger.

I am unfamiliar with the term "castor swing", what is it?
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Thucydides on September 16, 2011, 11:38:00 pm
Well Paul said it is possible to remove polestun in TS, it's just whether the devs want to, they can change the chance to pole stagger to 0 for no pole stagger.

I am unfamiliar with the term "castor swing", what is it?

its when a 2h or a lesser extent polearmer "hiltslashes" you right after another attack thats blocked. Breaking the block, attack, block paradigm.

i am seeing this more and more now, sort of annoying.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Dezilagel on September 16, 2011, 11:40:25 pm
its when a 2h or a lesser extent polearmer "hiltslashes" you right after another attack thats blocked. Breaking the block, attack, block paradigm.

i am seeing this more and more now, sort of annoying.

Nah, 'tis fun :D
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 16, 2011, 11:52:38 pm
Advise to you, drop the block you hit,  they hit block stuff. That is not the way it works now, with left swing block and right swing hit stuff. It's always been that way, even with poles because overheads are so slow and it is doable via footwork.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 17, 2011, 01:01:59 am
Perhaps I was a bit ambitious, it's hard to see whether it's the polestun tipping the weapon over the edge of balance or the stats itself, perhaps it would be better to remove polestun first and then see what needs balancing.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Phoenix on September 17, 2011, 02:26:15 am
Take polestun from all the spammy Polearms and keep it on the slower ones.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Snoozer on September 17, 2011, 09:48:28 am
im the back peddling glaive user u so hate lol who has a little bit of points in cav to troll that lol 8-). idk it doesn't seem all the bad seeing how a lancer is simply a pole arm on a horse so it shouldn't b a point of argument. im spamy 2 btw lulz
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Snoozer on September 17, 2011, 09:50:31 am
oh wait i didn't add to the thread at all  :oops:, to be honest even if they did take out polestun there would still be spamy polearms like myself still being the same problem i doubt anyone would see the difference
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 17, 2011, 11:28:47 am
The problem with some of the more spammy poles are their animations, Phase made a glaive wielding polearm guy and essentially just spun around like a madman. The way a polearm animation works is that much more of the animation is spent in chambering the weapon than a 2hand (this is what makes chamber blocking much easier for poles), so if held the swing animation is horrifically fast. With spin, the animation can be so glitchy it can hit you before looking like it has been released. I don't know which weapons this occurs with, I just know that it does for the glaive since I have never seen a tornado user on any other polearms.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Snoozer on September 17, 2011, 11:41:25 am
um idk what u mean i have not seen any blademaster pole arms running around doing using blade storm
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 17, 2011, 11:45:34 am
Because it was a STF alt he made to test the glaive. He deleted it to make a cav I think.

/End rage
 I don't think it's the weapons that are the problem it is the range and backpedalling they are used with. Yes you can leave a back pedaller alone, but he will likely slash you in the back if you do. And they will backpedall even as the last, something needs doing about backpedalling with long weapons I think. Not shorter ones like the 1h+Shield since they are fine.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Snoozer on September 17, 2011, 11:53:04 am
pls tell me more........so i can rape all that is alliance with my blademaster class even though i already posted this I SHALL DO IT ONCE MORE

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


http://classic.battle.net/war3/orc/units/blademaster.shtml

trololulz horde ftw
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Dezilagel on September 17, 2011, 12:38:08 pm
No Quant, it's a simple question of physics:

The glavie is long, really long. If you have a long stick and swing it with a certain speed then the speed at the tip is going to be higher than if you had a shorter stick. Combine that with the decent weapon speed of the glavie (90? 91 MW?) and it's not that hard to figure out why the Glavie looks so fast.

Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Snoozer on September 17, 2011, 12:44:08 pm
^SCIENCE!!!!!!



same reason why bitches get in ma face i glance alot also y ima a back peddling spamyspamspamer spamming FOR SPAMINGTON

(5 ath sucks im going back to 6ath n up from now on)
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 17, 2011, 01:05:38 pm
Hmm you have failed to understand the principle you speak of Dezi, yes the tip is moving faster but that doesn't mean it moves faster in a radial way. For completeness I will show you in equations.

w=omega=angular velocity=weapon turn speed
v=velocity
r=weapon length

The relation rather obviously is wr=v.
Just because the tip is moving faster doing mean it will complete a turn faster.

Edit: You forget that I am a student of theoretical physics myself, I would not overlook something so simple. I shall also derive a much more useful equation, there are 2pi radians in a full circle so over 1 swing period T the relation will be: w=2pi/T. The length does not have any relation at all to swing time completion, other than how fast realistically you can spin (moments of inertia).
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Snoozer on September 17, 2011, 01:11:05 pm
well how come the fact that most of the weight is at the tip and its not put in as a factor in the equation?

i graduated a while ago so my equations "skills" r fail lol so sorry if i misinterpreted u
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 17, 2011, 01:20:02 pm
Thats the moment of inertia part, which I will explain here. I must first say that Warband weapons do not run off this, since I did derive the models for this and the glaive comes out with a speed of 68 without accounting for the fact that all the weight is at the edge which would make it slower, also damage solely depends on the weight of the weapon since the speed of the tip being dependant of the length is cancelled out by larger moments of inertia being produced from the extra range.

Moments of inertia is the amount of resistance to circular motion a certain thing has, for a point particle it is mr^2. For something more complex you have to know some calculus (3D calculus is required), you can treat each little mass inside something as a small mass dm at a distance from point of rotation r. Now you could work all those infinitesmal masses and add them together (theoretically), but technically that's an integral. So you take Integral[r^2dm]. This is not very useful however since dm is variable so instead use a constant thing to integrate with. Now density ,p=m/V where m is mass and V is volume. So we can use dV instead. Now rewriting this in terms of dV,
 Moment of inertia, I=integral[p*r^2 dV].
Volume integral formed, that is the difficulty to swing an object of length r about it's edge.

Edit: To answer your question the weight at the tip part is "accounted" for in the swing speed of the weapon. Also I said that that equation is for the object of length r about it's edge, but this equation works even if the object is not rotated about it's edge, it's just easier to deal with it that way.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Paul on September 17, 2011, 01:37:34 pm
polearms are fine. too lazy to think of something for polestagger atm.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Snoozer on September 17, 2011, 01:39:40 pm
what do you mean? like you do not want to think of something to justify pole stagger of you just do not want to think of something to replace it?
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 17, 2011, 01:47:32 pm
I think it was, too lazy to think of a fix.

Edit: The overhead chamber block on a stab doesn't require a fast weapon or agi whore, I just had it done unintentionally by a highland claymore with the guy in full plate.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Jambi on September 17, 2011, 03:13:19 pm
polearms are fine. too lazy to think of something for polestagger atm.

Meh.

Not too lazy, too biased.

I think its time for more players to start leaving this shit mod, the devs deserve this imo. Its been nothing but shit coding/trolling/retardness lately.

What happend to the whole voting thing?
I remember us all voting on what we thought was balanced, needed buff or nerf?
Yet now you decide to just push nerfs thru without any community oppinion, or patchnotes.

You want us to believe the devs care about community input and oppinion, by having chadz make these cheesy voting polls etc.
No, you showed now again... how CRPG's devs dont give a shit.
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,5439.msg93572.html#msg93572 <------ Biased Politics Inside




Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 17, 2011, 03:19:13 pm
I am with Jambi, polestun was the number one thing WSE was meant to fix, the first thing to be fixed? Ground collisions. Why, not because of realism and it was not OP to feint the floor like Atze since you can't see anything that is going on and it's easy to block. Seriously is cmpx every going to nerf his own class instead of buffing. "Too lazy", polestun is likely dependant on one or 2 values as that is how the Warband engine is coded, change one value and that feature disappears. It allows modders to make their own mod and I am guessing this has followed through to the polestagger. Seems to me more like bias as Jambi said. I am not one to judge but the delaying of fixing the number 1 issue for WSE seems a bit strange.

Back to native ->
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Dezilagel on September 17, 2011, 03:32:50 pm
(click to show/hide)

I'm not trying to lecture you in physics, I'm just saying that probably, this is due to your brain messing with ya - since there is a very simple explanation that doesn't involve animations being weird, and that would explain why everyone is complaining about the Glavie specifically.

Also Jambi - stop filling the forums with your crap; their mod - they decide what to do. If you don't like it just go play native where bows are completely op, just how you like em.

Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Jambi on September 17, 2011, 03:38:59 pm
Also Jambi - stop filling the forums with your crap; their mod - they decide what to do. If you don't like it just go play native where bows are completely op, just how you like em.

Erm, yeah i do want bows to be OP, totally.
*sarcasm off*

Dude you have no idea.

stop filling this forum with your crap
Go suck a dev, you anti-archer biased sheep
Seems like you have done zero research about me, and what i actually think of archery atm.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 17, 2011, 03:41:23 pm
Inertia is not a value you overcome, it is more a reduction to the possible rate of swinging.

E=Iw^2
w=(E/I)^2 so it's not something through strength becomes neglible, it's something which is a reducing factor dependant on your strength (energy you can swing with) and the moment of inertia which for polearms is larger due to the high weight concentration at the end.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Xant on September 17, 2011, 03:43:22 pm
Polearms are fine...

The stagger can be annoying, but hardly more than a minor annoyance at best. (Well it can be more than that when caused by a longspear but that's another story..)

I think it'd be nice if it took like 1 more hit to break the average shield from the bonus vs shield polearms, but... shielders get immunity from ranged when facing them, stands to reason the shields have a weakness (note: shields, not shieldERS, if you don't crutch on your shield you can put it on your back and fight the polearm d00ds without it). Still, 1 more hit! So it'd be like 4 instead of 3!
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Dezilagel on September 17, 2011, 03:44:19 pm
Inertia is not a value you overcome, it is more a reduction to the possible rate of swinging.

Yes, I know.

You're not taking into account ... if it's [even] being swung at highest possible speed

 :wink:

Edited this post to be more clear - I meant the other way around. (ofc)
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 17, 2011, 03:47:59 pm
Edited my post so it makes more sense, it is a direct operator, so swinging at the highest possible speed will still have the same reducing factor. Ah yes that now makes sense, but I guess theres no reason to balance based on how bothered the person is swinging. That seems a bit strange. Still I don't support a realistic model for weapon speeds since it's too much of a nerf for longer weapons. A speed system based on weapon weight, and length would be nice.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Kafein on September 17, 2011, 04:03:51 pm
I don't know how exactly they manage to do that, but I've seen Candiru and Phyrex doing a thrust, being blocked then immediatly swing again with 0 recovery time.

All axe-like weapons should be unbalanced. I'm sick of carbon poleaxes  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 17, 2011, 04:07:04 pm
I shall have to ask Phyrex how he does that, the block stun issue for me is crippling.
That is all I wanted for the GLA a return of the unbalanced trait, I never had a problem with those axes being underpowered in native against similar/same weapons as are in crpg.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Xant on September 17, 2011, 04:07:21 pm
I don't know how exactly they manage to do that, but I've seen Candiru and Phyrex doing a thrust, being blocked then immediatly swing again with 0 recovery time.
Not possible. The thrust needs to bounce to do that, and it's a very... specific bounce. Needs to be at facehug distance and done just the right way for it to work.

If it gets blocked it doesn't work.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 17, 2011, 04:09:20 pm
That is as I thought, the stun on stabs has been longer than swings since native, reducing the stab animation speed multiplies the recovery time.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Siiem on September 17, 2011, 04:21:43 pm
Two polerams needs a look at, long spear and glaive (maybe poleaxe stab - a point or two), otherwise it's not nearly as game breaking as some 22nd members here seem to write. And I expect you to start behaving normal again Jambi...
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Mtemtko on September 17, 2011, 04:25:23 pm
And I expect you to start behaving normal again Jambi...

Siiem da boss now?
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 17, 2011, 04:26:02 pm
The glaive was my main issue, GLA seems a bit strange to have no unbalanced trait but the glaive is horrible.

Whoever tells me is boss IS boss after looking at your avatar.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Alexander_TheGreat_ on September 17, 2011, 07:10:33 pm
Who buffed the great long axe???
Its now the ultimate noob weapon.

1. Polestun
2. Great long axe animation is very fast

Come on, its not that hard to get rid of the polestun, you only have to change the value.

If you fight up a hill and hit the ground are you totally fucked. REMOVE IT, cRPG is dying now...... R.I.P
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Gravoth_iii on September 17, 2011, 11:37:23 pm
GLA does not need nerf, it is very short and pretty slow.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 18, 2011, 01:56:32 pm
I just made an STF polearmer, using a scythe and peasant gear I was managing to get a 1:1 ratio by backpedalling a little, this was against some very good players without any previous training in polearms. If polearms aren't OP I don't know what is.

I am told weapons are balanced by the percentage kills by the community, which is stupid, since pole's best is Dezilagel and no offence to Dezi but his skills don't stand up to the likes of Bjord, Phyrex or Harlequeer Harlequin. Get rid of polestun, stop being "lazy" and balance by checking stats against stats, not by numbers of kills since 2handers have a much higher percentage of their players who know what they are doing.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Kato on September 18, 2011, 02:36:22 pm
I just made an STF polearmer, using a scythe and peasant gear I was managing to get a 1:1 ratio by backpedalling a little, this was against some very good players without any previous training in polearms. If polearms aren't OP I don't know what is.

I am told weapons are balanced by the percentage kills by the community, which is stupid, since pole's best is Dezilagel and no offence to Dezi but his skills don't stand up to the likes of Bjord, Phyrex or Harlequeer Harlequin. Get rid of polestun, stop being "lazy" and balance by checking stats against stats, not by numbers of kills since 2handers have a much higher percentage of their players who know what they are doing.

Best polearm inf is muffin for sure, on battlefield he is a lot better then all these dualing nerds. :)
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Kafein on September 18, 2011, 02:47:11 pm
I just made an STF polearmer, using a scythe and peasant gear I was managing to get a 1:1 ratio by backpedalling a little, this was against some very good players without any previous training in polearms. If polearms aren't OP I don't know what is.

I am told weapons are balanced by the percentage kills by the community, which is stupid, since pole's best is Dezilagel and no offence to Dezi but his skills don't stand up to the likes of Bjord, Phyrex or Harlequeer Harlequin. Get rid of polestun, stop being "lazy" and balance by checking stats against stats, not by numbers of kills since 2handers have a much higher percentile of their players who know what they are doing.

That's precisely what's flawed in the usual 2h logic. You are not "more skilled" than the best polearmers. Why ? Because you can't compare apples and oranges. You could be the best 2h in the world, but even if you always kill the most skilled shortened spear peasant in duel, that doesn't make you "more skilled" in 2h than him in shortened spear, see what I mean ?

Moreover, at those levels the successes and defeats against other similarly skilled people are completely inconsistent. I can't tell who's best between (e.g.) Harlequin and Phyrex simply because they both can win the duel and the outcome will depend on very variable things like their mood, concentration, etc.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 18, 2011, 02:47:50 pm
Well I don't know Muffin too well, but my point gets across still I think the best of poles' skills are as high as that of the best of 2hands, poles have Muffin and Dezi, 2hands have the best of native/crpg Phyrex,Bjord, Harlequin and the list goes on.

The most obvious reason to me for poles being OP, is that in native they were fine, poles vs 2 hands was a balanced thing even without taking advantage of polestun. Then for crpg poles don't get nerfed at all and almost every patch 2hands do. If they were balanced before they definately aren't now.

Kafein yes, but polearms and 2hands are made for the same thing, melee killing with no support role unlike the shield. So they should be equal.

Also I made the STF so I could test my "skill" level against that which I normally would do, doing aswel as normal with a scythe, peasant clothes, no polearm training (not much anyway), against the same skill level of people whilst tired is not normal. Something is wrong with polearms if all that hinderence still allows me to be as good as normal with my 2h. You can tell Phyrex and Harlequin are the most skilled because of how good their manual block skills and footwork is, they pretty much never miss a block and their deaths are generally only due to ranged. That said even Phyrex said poles are OP in TS, if he sees a problem against them theres definately an issue.

I can't seem to see why people don't find it remarkably strange that only none balance developer weapons are getting nerfs even though it's not necessary. A poll on the community recently showed that most people thought archery was in a good place (it was), then they nerf them anyway. How many threads have there been about xbows needing nerfed (deservingly, an arbalest can one shot me in a lordly black coat of plates) and still no nerf.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Paul on September 18, 2011, 03:31:05 pm
I hope you are trolling.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Kafein on September 18, 2011, 03:55:11 pm
Then for crpg poles don't get nerfed at all and almost every patch 2hands do.

Humm, yeah the last patch that was a 2h nerf was... let me think... in January ?

Kafein yes, but polearms and 2hands are made for the same thing, melee killing with no support role unlike the shield. So they should be equal.

Not really, 2h should be better for duelling. And they are, mainly because they have better animations. Poles should be better for formation fights, and anti-cav. They are good for group fights and anti-cav, but 2h are usually just as good. No pole is longer than a DGS thrust except the long spear and pike, and the animation doesn't last longer than it should for polearms. And greatswords outrange a heavy lance so there is little difference between those and a pike when it comes to the enemy cav behaviour : he avoids you. Horse rearing has no use when you can kill the horse and/or the rider in one thrust. Furthermore, 2h side swings often go through nearby teammates just like polearm overheads before WSE.

All this is balanced out with better raw stats for polearms.

Also I made the STF so I could test my "skill" level against that which I normally would do, doing aswel as normal with a scythe, peasant clothes, no polearm training (not much anyway), against the same skill level of people whilst tired is not normal. Something is wrong with polearms if all that hinderence still allows me to be as good as normal with my 2h.

I have a flamberge 24/15 alt and even though I have much more experience with cavalry, I do just as good. Try playing that polearm char longer to really assess it. Your k/d heavily depends on how the other players react towards you. If they recognise a good player, they will probably try to avoid duelling. If you just created a STF char however, people don't recognise you, assume you are a noob and go for the kill. That's why fake peasants are soo effective when they aren't known (well now that there aren't peasants anymore, most people know that a peasant is probably fake  :P )

You can tell Phyrex and Harlequin are the most skilled because of how good their manual block skills and footwork is, they pretty much never miss a block and their deaths are generally only due to ranged. That said even Phyrex said poles are OP in TS, if he sees a problem against them theres definately an issue.

I know Phyrex says poles are OP. DaveUKR said xbow weren't. I can't really tell the difference, and we all know what's going on with xbows.

I can't seem to see why people don't find it remarkably strange that only none balance developer weapons are getting nerfs even though it's not necessary. A poll on the community recently showed that most people thought archery was in a good place (it was), then they nerf them anyway. How many threads have there been about xbows needing nerfed (deservingly, an arbalest can one shot me in a lordly black coat of plates) and still no nerf.

Just like in all human groups, some devs are biaised, many are in between and some are not. ad hominem arguments don't help your cause.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 18, 2011, 05:08:46 pm
Actually on the balance between poles, I believe 2hand should be worse since they are shorted and therefore better in groups which is the way I find them to be. I do not keep track of dates of nerfs but the 2 hand nerfs are generally results of another change and are not explicitly stated. Poles and 2h anims are equal, poles have slightly glitchier animations but this has strengths in it being harder to detect and weaknesses. The flamberge costs 18k my gear costs less than a thousand gold, people on the duel server would have learned the fact I was good after the amount of time I spent dueling there. I beat a guy in plate without taking advantage of polestun or backpedalling (too much), he was a strength whore and no matter the skill of them they are always an issue since it takes me a lot of hits and then I make one mistake and die. With the scythe on the plate guy he couldn't even get in range for me to make a mistake, it led to plate << scythe.

The Phyrex saying poles are OP part, you don't get as good as Phyrex without learning to admit where you went wrong, he doesn't complain any more about anything due to him not making many mistakes. But still he does think poles are OP. With crossbows it's harder to see yourself if they are OP because you don't really get to see the value of the other classes from where you are in your cave/hide spot.

What I said about the devs, they may not be biased, I know Paul isn't. But it sure as hell is one heck of a coincidence since I saw no problems in native between poles to 2h balance, other than pole stun and stab speed on a 2h. Nerfing the stab on 2h was required, I agree, but it is not necessary to keep such a long stun on it, yet it lingers. Polestun is a required removal, yet Paul says the devs are too lazy, perhaps so, but why not be lazy on fixing the ground bounce or bunny jumping. One person complained the night before about bunny jumping and it gets an unrequired fix (archers needed that maneuverability to stand a chance against cav), yet people have been complaining about polestun for long before WSE and the devs delay it. I don't know anyone who cared about the floor having no bounce, it certainly never bothered me before.

Seems my University start date came just in time... a large break was inevitable now I get a forced one. Back to native, it's more balanced than crpg is at the moment anyway, with the complete rape of archery every patch, when I come back archers will be running in and jabbing there arrows into the targets and 2 handers will have had their block ability removed.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Xant on September 18, 2011, 06:29:44 pm
Well if Phyrex says poles are OP then why isn't Paul nerfing them already?!

Also lol @ native being balanced.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: sF_Guardian on September 18, 2011, 06:51:39 pm
I can just agree with Quant.

Crpg has been the best mod for a long time, we have a great community and admins/devs ( Wookiemonstaa was smthin special ) did mostly very good work ( first repair patch and throwing nerf wasn´t ).
But now it seems like devs are no longer working together with the community and some buffs/nerfs seem irrational or/and not needed.

Its a shame how chadz´s very good work gets ruined !

There should be also a patch that fixes this annoyin polestun and the speed of the long halfted blade and glaive.

During the last weeks i played less and less Crpg and began to play other mods/games cuz Crpg is no fun anymore.
I hope that the devs listen to the guys that see this change and think about their way of "supporting" this mod.
If not Crpg will die in a few months .....



Sorry for my bad english, its not my native language
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 18, 2011, 08:22:21 pm
Xant not balanced. More balanced, native balance is in the form of this class beats this class, even though the ease at which it is done is variable. At least if I feel like playing archer over there I don't feel like running over there with my arrows and poking them because it's faster  :D. But still native is more fun because the combat is faster and to manual block there you actually need to have skill, and of course duels between people don't last 10 minutes. Plus with university I don't have the time for crpg because it's not quite jump in and kill like it is in native.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Xant on September 18, 2011, 09:07:04 pm
Archers are ridiculously OP in native, which fucks up the balance altogether.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Thucydides on September 18, 2011, 09:23:37 pm
the balance in native is archers and shielders with some cav
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: sF_Guardian on September 18, 2011, 10:29:21 pm
So x-bow and pole is useless in native ? :D
Just 2h is useless there ( except maul ), but 2h is actually a fail class and only possible in Crpg.
Anyway native FEELS ways more balanced than Crpg and thats what im missin here ....
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Gurnisson on September 18, 2011, 10:35:18 pm
Polearms are pretty much support/anti-cav only in native. Pikes, spears, lances and lawlpikes are pretty much everything that's being used there. Some guys use Glaive and Long Hafted Spiked Mace, but they're very rare. 2H is good on native, but the insane amount, and sheer power, of ranged (both bow and xbow) makes them pretty rare on the battlefield.

Also, native ain't balanced, because ranged is op there. The rate of fire is ludicrous and renders other classes completely useless at times.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Snoozer on September 19, 2011, 07:33:29 am
i think your problem is with the backpaddle tactic not polearms. any weapon can be used to backpeddle if you have the agil for it its just that polearms are a little bit more easy then the other classes due to length but 2h isnt far behind it of course (i would not think 1h is capable of backpeddling but im talking out of my ass on that one)

and gla is devastatingly suck ass. y u ask?  :mad: it was  MY MAIN NATIVE WEP I WOULD KNOW!!!!i devastated entire teams with it always having bare minimum 3/1 k/d usually 5/1. idk what they did to it but its fucked in the ass.AND IT CANT STOP HORSES WTF!!!! i was always in full hascarl armour with that  :(. end rant/

why use a gla when you can use a poleaxe thats longer and stops horses anyways

and wtf are you talking about "balanced classes" in crpg there werent classes it ws cavalry infantry and archer. and EVERYONE was rolling with a pole arm gla(norde) glaive (rhodoc)bardiche(viegars).the only time they weren't was swadia and rhodoc cus they had good swords and saltinate sucked ass to me all they had good was war spear

^atleast thats what i remembered but its been awhile sence i played native
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Phew on September 19, 2011, 10:14:16 pm
I have been a pole user for 5 gens, and can assure you I don't rely on the "polestun" mechanic at all. I use a slow weapon (90 speed) with low WPF (120ish) in fairly heavy armor (Rus Scale), so even if I get the full 1s stagger animation (only 50% of the time on overheads that strike the head, the rest of the time it's the same 0.6s stagger animation that everyone else gets), that's still not enough time to get a 'free' hit in (I have about 1.25s between swings I think).

I'd trade this 50% chance for a 0.2s-0.4s longer stagger animation for the 2H animations/reach any day of the week, and so would most other pole users.

Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Vibe on September 19, 2011, 10:23:45 pm
I think I minor decrease to polestun length would be a good step towards balance.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Phew on September 19, 2011, 10:36:32 pm
Last time devs posted server stats, 2H were responsible for ~40% of kills, Pole ~20%. What do you think that ratio will be if they nerf polestun without enhancing poles in some other way?

Like I said, I'm not attached to the polestun mechanic, because in 1v1 it provides zero benefit unless you have a Masterwork Spear and 180 wpf or something. Your opponent can always still block after the stagger animation is over. It's handy for teamwork purposes, and makes sense since poles should be superior support weapons.

Personally, I say make stagger duration a function of weapon weight and/or damage, regardless of type. A long spear overhead shouldn't call the 1s stagger animation, because it barely hurts. Get hit by a Great Long Axe to the skull? That SHOULD daze you a bit. Then tweak the pole animations so they are less awkward, obvious, and sluggish. Swinging a 2H feels so fluid compared to the robot dance that is swinging a pole.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Vibe on September 19, 2011, 11:00:46 pm
Like I said, I'm not attached to the polestun mechanic, because in 1v1 it provides zero benefit unless you have a Masterwork Spear and 180 wpf or something

I can see that you haven't dueled a decent polearmer yet who can make use of the polestun.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Phew on September 19, 2011, 11:14:50 pm
I can see that you haven't dueled a decent polearmer yet who can make use of the polestun.

The only way someone can get a "free hit" in a duel using polestun is by using a fast, non-knockdown pole (Spear, for instance), hitting you in the head, and hoping that it triggers the full 1s stagger animation.

See Walt's post on WPF affect on swing speed. Only non-knockdown weapon data points below 1s could possibly allow a free hit, which is basically Spear >140 WPF.

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2531.0.html

And even then, it's a 50% chance, and only on blows to the head. Torso is 50% chance for 0.8s stagger i believe, at least this is what Paul hinted.

In a realistic scenario, the guy probably has a MW Bec and is wearing armor, for a swing speed in the 1.075s range. MAYBE with turning into the swing+lag, he could get a free-hit on the stagger, but again, only on a blow to the head. If you are letting someone smack you in the head with a Bec during a duel, you're going to lose regardless.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Vibe on September 19, 2011, 11:19:47 pm
The only way someone can get a "free hit" in a duel using polestun is by using a fast, non-knockdown pole (Spear, for instance), hitting you in the head, and hoping that it triggers the full 1s stagger animation.

See Walt's post on WPF affect on swing speed. Only non-knockdown weapon data points below 1s could possibly allow a free hit, which is basically Spear >140 WPF.

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2531.0.html

And even then, it's a 50% chance, and only on blows to the head. Torso is 50% chance for 0.8s stagger i believe, at least this is what Paul hinted.

In a realistic scenario, the guy probably has a MW Bec and is wearing armor, for a swing speed in the 1.075s range. MAYBE with turning into the swing+lag, he could get a free-hit on the stagger, but again, only on a blow to the head. If you are letting someone smack you in the head with a Bec during a duel, you're going to lose regardless.

Ever seen polestun -> sidestep -> unblockable hit? Or even polestun -> sidestep -> kick -> ublockable hit? Guess not.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Teeth on September 19, 2011, 11:24:45 pm
Ever seen polestun -> sidestep -> unblockable hit? Or even polestun -> sidestep -> kick -> ublockable hit? Guess not.
Those are able to fill my rage meter very quickly. I don't think the devs have any possibilities to modify polestun yet, if they have they better remove it quickly.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Snoozer on September 19, 2011, 11:59:42 pm
glaive is 90 speed..... so evidently thats his standard of a polearm too fast
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 20, 2011, 12:06:15 am
Polestun is possible of netting a free hit, by use of footwork you can make the swing hit earlier in the swing or run around your target whilst staggered and they cannot turn around to block fast enough. You don't need to be an agi whore either, I did this on a level 23 cav character with low athletics and wpf.

Perhaps a good pole balance would be to slow down the speed of walking backwards after back walking for 5 seconds? Would not nerf footwork but would nerf constant back pedallers.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Snoozer on September 20, 2011, 12:07:10 am
so your problem is with back peddlers not polearms
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 20, 2011, 12:10:08 am
When combined with a polearm yes, it's not really doable for kills without a long weapon. It makes manual blocking a lot easier and makes normal assessment of range null. And my problem with poles is polestun ofc, which is why I raged so much when they said they were to lazy to do something about it.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Blueberry Muffin on September 20, 2011, 01:16:53 am
Quote
Polearms and 2handers are balanced imo. Although polearm has a longer list of good points, 2h is still just as good. Polearms are sod easy to block. If you cant block a stab, its your own fault. Polearms are very obvious as to their dierction of an attack due to their length etc. If you boil it down 2h is good because you can manage to distort your avatars body into impossible shapes, while attacking. I switched onto 2h on my alt and i have less problems with tough opponents because I found how to throw a few spins and mislead them into blocking the wrong direction. Swinging though walls doesnt happen exclusively with polearms so that point is invalid.

After spamming a LHB like a pro for a long time(and you eu guys know how profficient i was with that) and now trying 2h, I personally find them equal. No nerfs needed imo. Its not an opinion with much support and I think most people will agree with you mulas, but hey, its just my 2 cents.



Quotes of muffins thoughts on balance.
It is balanced. Apart from now with htorses and ranged but havent seen the impacts of that yet, so i dunno about them atm.

Oh and phyrex says somethins op means its op does it? Phyrex the famous lolstabber who plays 2h always.
Ive had my main char as 1h,2h and pole(pole longest though) anf I can state they have pros and cons but all weigh up to being balanced.
Removing polestun is a silly idea, its part of game balance. If you remove polestun i demmand that 2h animation is changed so you cant dance like a ballerina and make it so you cant lolstab. Its only fair.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: comikal on September 20, 2011, 03:17:15 am
As an archer with 6 PS, 57 wpf and a shortened spear, I'd have to say that polestun is how I get a majority of my (melee) kills. Also, the 102 speed means I can attack even when someone has already started pulling back their weapon. If they get stunned, that's a free stab I get and a sidestep.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Dezilagel on September 20, 2011, 01:18:55 pm
Nah, polestun IS complete bullshit imo, call it part of the game if you want - but I just think it's borked.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Teeth on September 20, 2011, 01:48:52 pm
I see everyone stating that polearms are so easy to block, am I really the only one who find 2h much easier to block? Might be just my knowledge of 2h which gives me a better understanding of the tricks they are trying to do.

What I dislike about polearm animations is that they seem faster than 2h animations of the same speed, I seem to be the only one who thinks that too.

And also that the polearm bounces back into a position that looks like a chambered attack after I block, which makes it very hard to tell if the user is doing a double attack or that it is just the bounce back that I'm seeing.

Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Vibe on September 20, 2011, 02:00:37 pm
Nah, polestun IS complete bullshit imo, call it part of the game if you want - but I just think it's borked.

I'm surprised you said that as a dedicated polearmer :D
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Siiem on September 20, 2011, 02:46:10 pm
I'm surprised you said that as a dedicated polearmer :D

Why? Because he plays polearmer he can't be reasonable? What are you? a GK disguised as a fallen?
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Vibe on September 20, 2011, 02:55:10 pm
Why? Because he plays polearmer he can't be reasonable? What are you? a GK disguised as a fallen?

It was a compliment to Dezilagel for being able to look at his own class objectively, a not so common trait in this community.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Snoozer on September 20, 2011, 11:19:55 pm
well to be honest alot of people talk shit about certain pole-arms pole-stunning THAT DO NOT EVEN HAVE THE TAG TO THEM

alot of people think pole arm knockdown weapons are op cus they have "both" but in all actuallity they dont even have the stun tag attached to them.......if it says knockdown it cant pole-stun yet peeps bitch anyways

and even if they did take out polestun it wouldnt effect me at all and im the main example of what he hates (backpeddling glaive lulz) i just swing intill ur dead cus im spamyspamer fighting for spamington

after all......why block when i can just try to kill you again???
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Xant on September 21, 2011, 12:02:54 am
Which polearms don't polestun?
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: WaltF4 on September 21, 2011, 12:17:40 am
Polearms who have the knockdown flag don't have polestagger. Checked in the code and tested. 

Polearms with knockdown:
Staff
Quarter Staff
Long Spiked Club
Iron Staff
Long Hafted Knobbed Mace
Long Hafted Spiked Mace
Long Maul

I am not sure if couched lance hits can cause the longer stagger animation, but it doesn't particularly matter. Additionally, not all hit that cause the longer stagger allow for a follow up hit, and polearms are not the only weapons that a player can use to cause a stagger long enough to allow a follow up hit. However, polearms with side slashes are almost certainly the best weapons for causing stun locks.
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: deathbringer521 on September 21, 2011, 03:35:03 am
polearms are perfect the way they are, stop crying
Title: Re: Polearms....
Post by: Snoozer on September 21, 2011, 09:48:30 am
polearms are perfect the way they are, stop crying

^word