cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: deathbringer521 on September 08, 2011, 02:39:55 am

Title: Ranged
Post by: deathbringer521 on September 08, 2011, 02:39:55 am
Ranged is highly over powered, whether they are on horses or on foot. on foot they have cute little build allowing them to run faster then most melee and still hit for huge amounts of dmg, then when they mount a horse they are just fast enough to avoid all other cavalry but still kill any unarmored horse in under 3 shots. this is ridiculous they are IMPOSSIBLE to kill.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: _Savein_ on September 08, 2011, 02:56:01 am
lol
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: _Savein_ on September 08, 2011, 02:58:56 am
Ok, Imma start out by saying i'm one of the worst C-rpg players. And even i can kill horse archers with ease. Well Murchad on the other hand is a fucking beast. But ranged is not highly over powered. It just got nerfed to shit last patch. It's either you suck more then me at this game, Or there is something wrong with you. And the job of an archer is to do what you said, Shoot fall back if needed. If you want to keep up with archers then you! should go an agi build.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Kafein on September 08, 2011, 03:06:03 am
I'd say HA are balanced now. I didn't see Tuonela and the likes playing recently so I can't give a definitive response though. But the average HA I encountered either had terribad aim or hurt like a toothpick thrower, or both. They still hurt horses a lot though, but they aren't half as many as they used to be before the nerf so it's hard to say.

Foot archers on the other hand...

Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Bobthehero on September 08, 2011, 03:55:28 am
Foot archer that run are the lamest, especially if they try to kite shielders, although by that time its hilarious to see them go.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Vodner on September 08, 2011, 06:41:41 am
If an archer has enough ath to outrun infantry, then he likely has very little PD (or has a level 33 build). Ignore him, and help your team with more dangerous targets.

You have to sacrifice a silly number of points into PD / WM to play archer, leaving very little for melee WPF / PS. You really can't expect archers to willingly engage in melee.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Kenji on September 08, 2011, 07:18:35 am
I love Ranged.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 08, 2011, 07:46:21 am
lol
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Brrrak on September 08, 2011, 10:24:21 am
ARCHERS FINE, DON'T NERF.

Bye.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on September 08, 2011, 01:15:49 pm
YEAH!! GOGO NERF ARCHERS!!! DO IT AGAIN!!!


I really can't believe this anymore....as usuall there is a little idiot you crys the whole day because he gets shot 1-2 times and immediately he goes to the forum and starts a whinethread against archery.......Yeah nerf archers again!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:


Oh I forgot that I'm fucking overpowered, too, because I have masterwork longbow, masterwork bodkin arrows and I have a built on lvl 32 now with 7 powerdraw and 8 weaponmaster so I can do max damage to players.
No matter that almost every arbalest oneshots people with 60 or more bodyarmour, no matter that most 2h do the same, no matter that polearm stuns you for 1 second or more so you can't block a second hit....I am the overpowered player  8-)
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: [ptx] on September 08, 2011, 01:36:49 pm
this is ridiculous they are IMPOSSIBLE to kill.
So true! They NEVER die, they just respawn the next round and we're back to the starting point...
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on September 08, 2011, 01:39:36 pm

You have to sacrifice a silly number of points into PD / WM to play archer, leaving very little for melee WPF / PS. You really can't expect archers to willingly engage in melee.

Especially not with a hammer^^
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Lizard_man on September 08, 2011, 01:48:02 pm
As much as i hate ranged and the sheer number of them, the camping of roofs, i think they're pretty balanced...
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Patoson on September 08, 2011, 02:35:22 pm
So true! They NEVER die, they just respawn the next round and we're back to the starting point...

LOL
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: El_Infante on September 08, 2011, 02:40:57 pm
Quote
No matter that almost every arbalest oneshots people with 60 or more bodyarmour, no matter that most 2h do the same, no matter that polearm stuns you for 1 second or more so you can't block a second hit....I am the overpowered player  8-)

Lies.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: rustyspoon on September 08, 2011, 02:51:10 pm
No matter that almost every arbalest oneshots people with 60 or more bodyarmour, no matter that most 2h do the same, no matter that polearm stuns you for 1 second or more so you can't block a second hit....I am the overpowered player  8-)

Do not mention XBOWS. They are PERFECTLY BALANCED. In fact they are probably the most logically balanced items in this game and are in fact not overpowered in ANY way. Now, let's never speak of this again. /thread.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: OttomanSniper on September 08, 2011, 03:08:05 pm
WHAT ?????

I HAVE 8 power draw and use +3 horn bow, +3 bodkin arrow AND CANT KILL WITH HEAD SHOT !!!

I WANT MORE DAMAGE FOR ARCHERY.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Moncho on September 08, 2011, 03:24:26 pm
So you do not like archers to run, think a bit, archers do exactly that.
If I can shoot you from afar, why on earth would I get any closer?
If I decide to have good accuracy, I am quite destroyed meleewise due to the wpf system (at lvl up to 30),
If I want to retire, I am not effective at all until I reach lvl 25/26 (or I am a badass).
If I have a shield in front of me, or a thrower, I am in trouble.
If I shoot most people (and happen to hit), I wont do much damage due to cut damage (except for the veeeeeeeery slow Longbow, taking 2 slots and letting me with a 0 slot weapon) and the huge amount of loomed armour.
The amount of arrows is not big (you can shoot them all in 30 seconds).
If I shoot, theres always a position you can get to somehow, even in full plate, avoid my arrow. Please look this awesome piece of work from cheapshot, it works for archers as well.
(click to show/hide)
If I am the last one in the round and run, people start shouting kick, ban that guy, etc.
Again, If you get a SHIELD, I am in trouble.
If you are a ninja, I am in trouble.

So you complain of archers? Please do one of the following:
GET A SHIELD
GET A SHIELD
RUN
SUICIDE (ingame, aka as respec to get a shield)
GET A SHIELD
This is your friend:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Kafein on September 08, 2011, 03:25:03 pm
No matter that almost every arbalest oneshots people with 60 or more bodyarmour, no matter that most 2h do the same, no matter that polearm stuns you for 1 second or more so you can't block a second hit....I am the overpowered player  8-)

And how is all that comparable to doing the same damage from far away and shooting more often than xbows ? And I forgot about running and shooting nearly without having to slow down. If ranged weapons do the same damage as melee weapons, I don't see any reason to go melee. Better yet, on top of your range, you inflict unblockable damage (a part from shields that are exactly turned towards you).

Polestun doesn't stun for one second (the effect is only useful when your team is ganking someone with high armor), and 2h don't oneshot except in high str vs low str situations.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Kafein on September 08, 2011, 03:37:13 pm
So you do not like archers to run, think a bit, archers do exactly that.
If I can shoot you from afar, why on earth would I get any closer?
If I decide to have good accuracy, I am quite destroyed meleewise due to the wpf system (at lvl up to 30),
If I want to retire, I am not effective at all until I reach lvl 25/26 (or I am a badass).
If I have a shield in front of me, or a thrower, I am in trouble.
If I shoot most people (and happen to hit), I wont do much damage due to cut damage (except for the veeeeeeeery slow Longbow, taking 2 slots and letting me with a 0 slot weapon) and the huge amount of loomed armour.
The amount of arrows is not big (you can shoot them all in 30 seconds).
If I shoot, theres always a position you can get to somehow, even in full plate, avoid my arrow. Please look this awesome piece of work from cheapshot, it works for archers as well.If I am the last one in the round and run, people start shouting kick, ban that guy, etc.
Again, If you get a SHIELD, I am in trouble.
If you are a ninja, I am in trouble.

So you complain of archers? Please do one of the following:
GET A SHIELD
GET A SHIELD
RUN
SUICIDE (ingame, aka as respec to get a shield)
GET A SHIELD
This is your friend:
(click to show/hide)

Lol.. please stop the "get a shield" nonsense. A shield is only "good" because it provides autoblock. The coverage is so ridiculously small on most shield they are completly useless against ranged attack. And I don't mention their weight that make shielders the slowest class, unable to run after archers.

Also, why do all the infantry and cav have to adapt to the ridiculous properties of archers when archers don't have to adapt at all ? Furthermore, finding cover, while sometimes possible (on most maps it's NOT), just means the inf hiding is a dead unit. If the inf starts hiding, I can tell you the archers already won the round, because they can turn around the cover, forcing the inf to move and get shot. Archers can even wait for the flags while the inf are nailed down.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Moncho on September 08, 2011, 04:03:12 pm
Lol.. please stop the "get a shield" nonsense. A shield is only "good" because it provides autoblock. The coverage is so ridiculously small on most shield they are completly useless against ranged attack. And I don't mention their weight that make shielders the slowest class, unable to run after archers.

Also, why do all the infantry and cav have to adapt to the ridiculous properties of archers when archers don't have to adapt at all ? Furthermore, finding cover, while sometimes possible (on most maps it's NOT), just means the inf hiding is a dead unit. If the inf starts hiding, I can tell you the archers already won the round, because they can turn around the cover, forcing the inf to move and get shot. Archers can even wait for the flags while the inf are nailed down.
Well, going ranged is an addaptation to shoot without getting hurt, and can run mostly due to low armor. Think about native archers and how they got nerfed, with the current build system it is not easy to combine good archery and melee fighting, resulting in pure archers that can do nothing tbut run, so it is evolve or die.

As a shield, I mean not the top end ones, but the medium lighter ones, and if you want to chase archers, you need quite high athl.
With shield, your shield is your armor, so you should not use plate, chainmail is good enough. With high agi you have athl and shield skill with increases its "field". (If concerned about low damage, use pierce/blunt + footwork)

About hiding, if it helps you survive while support arrives, thats it, not at the end of the round. At the end of the round, a 2her vs an archer is in trouble (again, dancing helps a lot here)
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Kafein on September 08, 2011, 05:23:51 pm
Well, going ranged is an addaptation to shoot without getting hurt

Quite proving my point here. Archery is the adaptation against itself... Trust me with the current system it is not easy to be a decent ranged when you are a melee fighter x)
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 08, 2011, 05:36:55 pm
And already the masses start repeating themselves.

The only nerf I would like to see is the Longbow reduced from 26P to 25P.

Yeah....
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Bobthehero on September 08, 2011, 05:55:25 pm
You have to sacrifice a silly number of points into PD / WM to play archer, leaving very little for melee WPF / PS. You really can't expect archers to willingly engage in melee.

I engage in melee all the time, everytime with my archer when a melee comes in contact, and I do good enough with a 21/15 build.
I use a longsword for melee. 70 wpf in it, avoids repair-rape.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Lichen on September 08, 2011, 06:47:23 pm
this is ridiculous they are IMPOSSIBLE to kill.

So true! They NEVER die, they just respawn the next round and we're back to the starting point...
We all know every archer in the game has died exactly zero times. Their immortality is unquestionable.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Farrok on September 08, 2011, 06:59:21 pm
I engage in melee all the time, everytime with my archer when a melee comes in contact, and I do good enough with a 21/15 build.
I use a longsword for melee. 70 wpf in it, avoids repair-rape.

Longbow/Rus bow + Longsword, perfect item combi...wait no arrows...pff as an dedicated archer(no hybrid who are better in melee than in archery) you are bound to use 0 slot weapon or when you can live with only a handful arrows an 1 slot weapon


though i dont have problem with archery, when some points would be add to missile speed it would be enough...its ridiculous that a inf can avoid almost every arrow when he is aware of the archer...archers dont have a primary target anymore except from low tier horses...
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Leshma on September 08, 2011, 07:03:34 pm
Nerf Nelo, Jambi, Nebun, Tenne and Chase but leave archery as it is.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Bobthehero on September 08, 2011, 07:53:19 pm
Longbow/Rus bow + Longsword, perfect item combi...wait no arrows...pff as an dedicated archer(no hybrid who are better in melee than in archery) you are bound to use 0 slot weapon or when you can live with only a handful arrows an 1 slot weapon


though i dont have problem with archery, when some points would be add to missile speed it would be enough...its ridiculous that a inf can avoid almost every arrow when he is aware of the archer...archers dont have a primary target anymore except from low tier horses...

Horn bow + stack of arrow + longsword, I have 130+ wpf in bow and 70 in 2h, got 7 PD and PS 5 ath and WM, I kill well with said bow and I rarely run out of arrows in a battle.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Overdriven on September 08, 2011, 08:32:33 pm
I think we should make a special little crpg for this guy from pre january and stick him vs pelulu in it. Then see what you think about current ranged being OP.

I'd say HA are balanced now. I didn't see Tuonela and the likes playing recently so I can't give a definitive response though. But the average HA I encountered either had terribad aim or hurt like a toothpick thrower, or both. They still hurt horses a lot though, but they aren't half as many as they used to be before the nerf so it's hard to say.

Foot archers on the other hand...

Tuonela has been on a bit but nowhere near as much with HA as before. He's mostly on the Pecores server I've noticed. I've had some good fights with him and beaten him a few times. He's not as strong as he used to be, but he can still top the score boards and get lots of head shots. I have nothing but admiration for his ability and he is very very frustrating and intense to fight on horse back, I frequently have to call in support from other GK's in order to handle him and limit his ability to swing a battle. When I first played HA I used to leave servers if Tuonela was on just because it would mean instant death for me.

But yes I think HA are balanced now. Not as accurate as we used to be, nor as high damage, especially with the fact it's pretty much impossible to use bodkins because of upkeep. I still see my roll as primarily anti cav to shoot down their horses, and I think that's what HA should really be. Not to mention it's a class many people don't want to play for various reasons. Prior to the last patch a lot of HA cropped up, partly due to that HA is OP thread I think, but I've noticed they are a rarity now. You get the usuals like Danton, Fru, Toc and me, but otherwise they are less and less frequent.

As for foot archers, they are in a good place right now. The accuracy is crap compared to what it used to be, as well as damage. They are also a lot slower because of the animation change. You will always have lots of archers no matter how much you nerf them, it's the nature of the class and to be honest, fairly accurate in terms of a historical stand point. And I know we can't argue realism over balance here, but chadz did state they want an overall relation to realism (hence him wanting people to use lower tier equipment for the majority).
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Herkkutatti on September 09, 2011, 10:16:37 am
archery is not OP, archery is just good vs guys without shield ,cav is good vs all kinda inf and inf is average op to everything XD
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Tzar on September 09, 2011, 10:51:22 am
Only beef i have with archery is the longbow 2 shotting me when i have 67 body armor and 7 IF.

That and roof camping on battle maps.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Kafein on September 09, 2011, 11:01:17 am
archery is not OP, archery is just good vs guys without shield ,cav is good vs all kinda inf and inf is average op to everything XD

That's strange I would say infantry are the prey of archers and cav. Cav and archers tend to avoid each other unless the cav can ninja the archer. Cav is good versus inf that don't have a pike or a long 2h and without too much agi and athletics (rofljump 5 meters on the side).
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Overdriven on September 09, 2011, 12:50:30 pm
Cav and archers tend to avoid each other unless the cav can ninja the archer.

Hardly. The only time they are avoided is if they are roof camping. Otherwise they tend to be easy kills for cav regardless of whether you can ninja them of not.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Inequity on September 09, 2011, 06:50:30 pm
All higher tier bows should be pierce damage.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 09, 2011, 06:54:31 pm
All higher tier bows should be pierce damage.
Nooooo! Keep my Rus Bow Cut! If it was pierce, then they would have to lower the damage to balance it out, and then it would no longer outperform the Longbow against horses!

Keep away from my Rus Bow! Shoo!
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Adalwulf on September 10, 2011, 02:51:26 am
I agree with tears here...touch my rus bow and i'll hunt you down with a real bow.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Fartface on September 10, 2011, 12:38:00 pm
hmm as mutch as there sometimes annoy me.
every class needs an counter in my opinion.
but if you consider if there werent any archers how hard would i , any other good 2hander rapee??
we would be unstoppable, on the otherr hand just delete archers i want total domination!
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Jarlek on September 10, 2011, 02:01:08 pm
hmm as mutch as there sometimes annoy me.
every class needs an counter in my opinion.
but if you consider if there werent any archers how hard would i , any other good 2hander rapee??
we would be unstoppable, on the otherr hand just delete archers i want total domination!
What I really get annoyed by is that what "counters" archers are shielders, but they can't really charge them since the shields slow you down so much. Dropping it would just mean the archer can shoot you, so all you can really do is run after them, while they occasionally fire an arrow somewhere, until you run into another group.

Then again, it's the same with pikes. They don't "counter" cav, they just make cav unable to attack you.

So what should be good against archers? Cav for one, but honestly I want crossbows and throwers to become better at taking them down. But this could also make them OP against the rest.

What I REALLY want though, is to make it better for archers to STAY in melee fight. What's happened to archers is that they have had to be more and more specialised (read: more skillpoints and wpf in archery) to stay effective, making it retarded for them to fight in melee. I say it should be so that a "pure" archer build would have A LOT of disadvantages, while buffing the archer with some melee (around 50-100wpf and 1-3 PS). How could this be done? By making bows heavier (you CAN run away from a fight but you'll have to drop the bow), increasing accuracy of bows (lolwut?) AND THEN make wpf NOT increase the accuracy. You would still need wpf to get past the "x wpf per PD", and it would still increase firing speed (maybe buff the gain by wpf?) BUT it would make accuracy  totally dependent on the bow, make it more valuable for archer to take SOME melee wpf AND make kiting archers have to give up their bows when they run.

Sorry for the ranting, kinda tired, was any of it good?
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Tzar on September 10, 2011, 02:09:00 pm
If they wanna fix untoucble archers just make it so that they cant draw the bow while running.

That alone is why u see so many of em cause they just kite every1 to death...
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Cheap_Shot on September 10, 2011, 02:16:42 pm
Besides other ranged being an obvious counter, the most effective counter to archery is a fast dude in plate. Kinda funny. While a shielder will be in less risk, their shield will probably break eventually and they can never hope to catch an archer. A roided up tincan sprinting toward an archer while zig zagging gets an easy kill 8 out of 10 times I'd say. Dodging ranged is so easy after the reduced missle speed that zig zagging is usually enough since you can see the arrow coming. And if you do get hit? Well you're wearing plate, and most bows are cut. Not happening. Good luck archer.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Jarlek on September 10, 2011, 02:28:01 pm
Besides other ranged being an obvious counter, the most effective counter to archery is a fast dude in plate. Kinda funny. While a shielder will be in less risk, their shield will probably break eventually and they can never hope to catch an archer. A roided up tincan sprinting toward an archer while zig zagging gets an easy kill 8 out of 10 times I'd say. Dodging ranged is so easy after the reduced missle speed that zig zagging is usually enough since you can see the arrow coming. And if you do get hit? Well you're wearing plate, and most bows are cut. Not happening. Good luck archer.
Agreed. I would also like to nerf running speed a bit. If you want to run you should HAVE to have a lot of athl AND been running for some time (slower acceleration). Buff throwing too :D
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Lichen on September 10, 2011, 05:47:56 pm
What I REALLY want though, is to make it better for archers to STAY in melee fight. What's happened to archers is that they have had to be more and more specialised (read: more skillpoints and wpf in archery) to stay effective, making it retarded for them to fight in melee. I say it should be so that a "pure" archer build would have A LOT of disadvantages, while buffing the archer with some melee (around 50-100wpf and 1-3 PS).
If an archer has 6pd which is all they need to use any bow in the game there's room left to put into 1h if they want (and pump WM). Ironically though the archers that DO stay and fight (and do well) get bitched at for THAT. So basically what I'm saying is archers are damned no matter what they do.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Bobthehero on September 10, 2011, 07:31:59 pm
I don't get bitched it at when I stand with my alt  :?
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 10, 2011, 07:48:41 pm
I don't get bitched it at when I stand with my alt  :?

I do, by my clan and also by a chunk of my team in dead chat.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Lichen on September 10, 2011, 08:31:30 pm
I don't get bitched it at when I stand with my alt  :?
'wtf, bs how could that archer do that, no way.. mace is op..f..k hybrids...nerf wpf' etc etc etc. you've never heard the bitching like that? I have. Basically a significant portion of this community is a bunch of fickle idiots who don't have a CLUE what it is they REALLY want (other than to endlessly bitch about anything and everything that kills them thus relieving themselves of the blame).
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Bobthehero on September 10, 2011, 08:38:04 pm
Nope, never, maybe because I use a longsword...
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Kophka on September 10, 2011, 08:45:02 pm
Only thing that bugs me about ranged is rooftop shooting. It's a constant, and you'll never see a map that removes it, since people are terrified of random plains/steppes maps. I don't know what can be done about it though.
Title: Re: Ranged
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 10, 2011, 08:46:53 pm
Only thing that bugs me about ranged is rooftop shooting. It's a constant, and you'll never see a map that removes it, since people are terrified of random plains/steppes maps. I don't know what can be done about it though.

Last night there was no roof top shooting on NA_1, though amusingly for some weird reason, I have never seen so much range in my life and I shit you not, over a quarter of the players were using longbows, not even counting other range. The FCC was representing! It was like 'Nam all over again.